Re-militarize the Police

[Perd Hapley]

Provocative thread title is provocative.

I don’t actually want police to think of themselves as a military force, at war with their fellow citizens. But could the recent unrest have come at a worse time for the effort to strip police departments of their MRAPs, and other materiel?

[Ben]

Yeah, once again the liberals, commies, anarchists, and Karens completely sabotage what could otherwise be reasonable reforms. This started on day one after Floyd's death. I think genera lLE reforms were discussed for about an hour before everyone went BLM, then anarchy, and started rioting over stuff that has nothing to do with LE reform.

My own opinion has been that specially trained units could have reasonable reasons for having some of that gear, but not meal team six and every rinkidink three person police department. Instead, something like a Sheriff's SRT to cover all LE departments in the county, and with VERY strict rules on use, with LOTS of training.

Otherwise, the current situations about have me rooting for the cops to get one of those AOC tanks and just start mowing down rioters.

[dogmush]

Provocative thread title is provocative.

I don’t actually want police to think of themselves as a military force, at war with their fellow citizens. But could the recent unrest have come at a worse time for the effort to strip police departments of their MRAPs, and other materiel?

The ones I know do like to think of themselves as warriors holding back the horde.  Thin Blue Line, 1*, and all that.  It's seductive to think of yourself as the unsung hero fighting against the onslaught.

If they didn't like it a little bit, you wouldn't see the move to drop holsters, cargo pants, and plate carriers with chest rigs and all that.  One doesn't play dress up as something one doesn't want to be.

[Hawkmoon]

My own opinion has been that specially trained units could have reasonable reasons for having some of that gear, but not meal team six and every rinkidink three person police department. Instead, something like a Sheriff's SRT to cover all LE departments in the county, and with VERY strict rules on use, with LOTS of training.

And more & better limitations on when SWAT gets the call. No more oh-dark-thirty, no knock warrant "services" where they break down the front door to "serve" a search warrant for a baggie of Mary Jane.

[Ben]

And more & better limitations on when SWAT gets the call. No more oh-dark-thirty, no knock warrant "services" where they break down the front door to "serve" a search warrant for a baggie of Mary Jane.

Absolutely agree. I don't understand how no-knocks are still a thing at this point.

[Pb]

Absolutely agree. I don't understand how no-knocks are still a thing at this point.

I agree.  No knocks for nonviolent criminals, and civil asset forfeiture should have both been banned a long time ago.

[Ben]

I agree.  No knocks for nonviolent criminals, and civil asset forfeiture should have both been banned a long time ago.

I'm right there with you on the civil asset forfeiture as well.

[Hawkmoon]

I'm right there with you on the civil asset forfeiture as well.

Ditto. IMHO "civil asset forfeiture" is nothing but theft under color of law.

[Ben]

If there were any way to get accurate statistics, I would be very curious as to how many individual police officers supported no-knocks and asset forfeiture. I'd like to think that on an individual level, an at least slight majority of that population are against them.

[French G.]

Basically police reform is a moot point. We don't really like police, but unless we want to travel in armed groups 24/7 in some Ayn Rand ancapistan fairy tale or some ancom murderous nightmare, we need people paid to keep things to a dull roar.

What is needed is judicial reform. Without the judicial cover it doesn't matter what tools, tactics or mindset the cops have if they can't use them. Qualified immunity gone, no knocks gone, civil forfeiture gone.

[dogmush]

Basically police reform is a moot point. We don't really like police, but unless we want to travel in armed groups 24/7 in some Ayn Rand ancapistan fairy tale or some ancom murderous nightmare, we need people paid to keep things to a dull roar.

I disagree with this false dichotomy.  We can reform our police forces to do better, and better meet our needs without doing away with them, or decending into chaos.  The idea that there is nothing between "no police reform, we'll kneel on who we please" and " travel in armed convoys because you are your own law in the badlands" is ridiculous.

I agree on the judicial reform.  We need that too.

[French G.]

Eh, not what I was really trying to convey. I meant it was moot now because of how events have unfolded. We haven't of late exactly reduced the number of reasons cops go to work thinking they will be killed. Little hard for them to walk around singin g the Barney song and handing out flowers.

[MechAg94]

I am fine with police reform as long as we understand there seem to be more than a few people who have no issue fighting police or pulling deadly weapons on them to avoid getting arrested or going back to jail.  I hope that would be helped by judicial and criminal justice reform, but we will see. 

[dogmush]

Eh, not what I was really trying to convey. I meant it was moot now because of how events have unfolded. We haven't of late exactly reduced the number of reasons cops go to work thinking they will be killed. Little hard for them to walk around singin g the Barney song and handing out flowers.

That makes more sense, and I mostly agree.  I just misunderstood you.

I will point out that for the most part Cops go to work thinking they'll be killed because they have been fed delusions about the whole "Us vs. Them" shtick.  That attitude (Every person I meet could be trying to kill me and/or I'm going to work and could die any day) is part of the problem that we need to address with police reform.

Cops do make the top 25 most dangerous jobs in the US, but not top 10, and they are behind truck drivers, airline pilots and landscapers.  No one would be OK with your gardener searching you for "his safety and yours" before discussing the appropriate perennial to line your driveway with.

Also, while "shot"* was the leading cause of death for cops in 2018 (the most recent year I can easily get numbers), generally traffic related deaths and Job related Illness are the big cop killers, not homies fighting arrest.  So Police reform might want to look at Yoga, diets and reflective belts, while de-training law enforcement that every encounter is potentially lethal.

25 Most dangerous jobs in the US: https://www.ajc.com/business/employment/these-are-the-most-dangerous-jobs-america/x2MOTeEYCgkt2zYCLfqfJJ/

Leading cause of death for LEO's: https://nleomf.org/facts-figures/causes-of-law-enforcement-deaths

*I HIGHLY suspect that at least shot numbers are accidental, from other cops, or self inflicted, but don't have the time to deep dive there right now.

[MechAg94]

That makes more sense, and I mostly agree.  I just misunderstood you.

I will point out that for the most part Cops go to work thinking they'll be killed because they have been fed delusions about the whole "Us vs. Them" shtick.  That attitude (Every person I meet could be trying to kill me and/or I'm going to work and could die any day) is part of the problem that we need to address with police reform.

Cops do make the top 25 most dangerous jobs in the US, but not top 10, and they are behind truck drivers, airline pilots and landscapers.  No one would be OK with your gardener searching you for "his safety and yours" before discussing the appropriate perennial to line your driveway with.

Also, while "shot"* was the leading cause of death for cops in 2018 (the most recent year I can easily get numbers), generally traffic related deaths and Job related Illness are the big cop killers, not homies fighting arrest.  So Police reform might want to look at Yoga, diets and reflective belts, while de-training law enforcement that every encounter is potentially lethal.

25 Most dangerous jobs in the US: https://www.ajc.com/business/employment/these-are-the-most-dangerous-jobs-america/x2MOTeEYCgkt2zYCLfqfJJ/

Leading cause of death for LEO's: https://nleomf.org/facts-figures/causes-of-law-enforcement-deaths

*I HIGHLY suspect that at least shot numbers are accidental, from other cops, or self inflicted, but don't have the time to deep dive there right now.

So if you throw out accidents and only consider deliberate actions, then how do those numbers look?  And also consider injuries caused by deliberate actions as well as just deaths.

[French G.]

Agreed with above. I have altered my social interactions years ago so that once I meet someone who is big on the 1* thing, or even worse 2*(for officer chomps) that I endeavor to never meet them again. I’ve had cops flat out tell me they were looking for a chance that shoot someone, their mask slipping because being in a gun training environment they assumed me an ally. So yeah, I know we need police reform. As long as they get home at night right?

[dogmush]

So if you throw out accidents and only consider deliberate actions, then how do those numbers look?  And also consider injuries caused by deliberate actions as well as just deaths.

Again, I didn't offer a comprehensive statistical analysis, I read the numbers and provided the links I found them at.

But, at a certain level, who cares if it is an intentional attack or accident?  You are just as dead if you die in a construction accident, or get hit by a car while forfeiting some civil assets on the side of the road, or popped by a gang member.

Being a cop is just quantifiable not as dangerous as cops think it is.  Since they (and their apologists) use the danger of that job as an excuse for all kinds of behavior that isn't really acceptable, that's a valid point to make.

I was responding to French's comment:

We haven't of late exactly reduced the number of reasons cops go to work thinking they will be killed.

If the average LEO in America goes to work thinking they will [or might be] killed they are delusional.  There are more than 800,000 sworn law enforcement agents in America.  On a bad year 175 might die, less than 1/3 of those are shot, stabbed, beaten, strangled, or otherwise killed not by accident.  And yet they routinely jerk us around in the name of "officer safety".

To offer another point of view, police in the US killed 1,099 people in 2019.  So if you are interacting with a cop you are 20 (ish) times more likely to be killed by the cop than you are to kill the cop.  Can we start disarming them for "Their safety and ours"?

The widespread idea that cops are in any particular danger from any random person they engage in the course of their duties is a very large part of the problem with current police behavior.


ETA:  Because we are cross posting, I want to be clear:  I am not presuming French or Mech are themselves making excuses for law enforcement, or otherwise OK with bad behavior.  I just picked up on that one statement, and thought that deserved some discussion.  Every cop I've talked to in the last 10 years seems to think they are 1 second from open combat at all times, and can't be dissuaded by numbers or logic.  It's a real problem.  THat one blog we talked about on here last month by the commie claiming to be an ex-cop touched on the internalizing by cops and training programs of this imagined threat.

[MechAg94]

Please understand I am not  politicking for more police powers, I just don't want to downplay the danger cops do face at times from the bad elements of society that we expect them to go apprehend.  They don't do that every day, but it does happen.  When someone is trying to break in, no one calls the landscaper. 

I think that issue could be solved in part by courts and judges and prosecutors actually punishing people who commit crimes rather than making excuses and letting them plea down to a few days in jail and multi-year probation.  It seems to me that most of the people who get violent with the police have plenty of prior crimes on their record.  We seem to be letting a lot of lesser crimes go with little or no punishment these days from everything I hear.  I am referring to theft, burglary, and destruction of property, not the drug stuff.  There is more to those problems, but the incentive to not commit crimes needs to be strong.

[dogmush]

Certainly revolving door prisons don't help with criminals getting a chance to remain violent and at large. 

I'm not sure how much stricter punishments might help though, there is a large body of psychological studies that lead to the conclusion that there is hardly an deterrent effect on crime by harsh sentences. It seems most criminals don't think they'll be caught, and as such don't really worry about the punishment.

I have also read comments by modern criminals that they aren't worried about being caught because they'll be right back out (this is especially common among criminals under 18), so your idea is not without merit.  The US imprisons a ton of people by modern standards though, and still has a pretty high crime rate.

I suspect the actual answer is to stamp out those American sub-cultures that embrace, or at least tolerate, criminality, but that would involve admitting that some sub-cultures are inherently worse than others and shouldn't be tolerated by society.  Suggesting that in public these days I will get you canceled, if not lynched.

[MillCreek]

^^^And of course, paying higher taxes to keep more people in prison is unpopular.

[Perd Hapley]

I was responding to French's comment:

We haven't of late exactly reduced the number of reasons cops go to work thinking they will be killed.

If the average LEO in America goes to work thinking they will [or might be] killed they are delusional.  

I thought he was saying the BLM/Antifa unrest would only add to the us vs them, "they're out to kill me" mindset.

[freakazoid]

Again, I didn't offer a comprehensive statistical analysis, I read the numbers and provided the links I found them at.

But, at a certain level, who cares if it is an intentional attack or accident?  You are just as dead if you die in a construction accident, or get hit by a car while forfeiting some civil assets on the side of the road, or popped by a gang member.

Being a cop is just quantifiable not as dangerous as cops think it is.  Since they (and their apologists) use the danger of that job as an excuse for all kinds of behavior that isn't really acceptable, that's a valid point to make.

I was responding to French's comment:
If the average LEO in America goes to work thinking they will [or might be] killed they are delusional.  There are more than 800,000 sworn law enforcement agents in America.  On a bad year 175 might die, less than 1/3 of those are shot, stabbed, beaten, strangled, or otherwise killed not by accident.  And yet they routinely jerk us around in the name of "officer safety".

To offer another point of view, police in the US killed 1,099 people in 2019.  So if you are interacting with a cop you are 20 (ish) times more likely to be killed by the cop than you are to kill the cop.  Can we start disarming them for "Their safety and ours"?

The widespread idea that cops are in any particular danger from any random person they engage in the course of their duties is a very large part of the problem with current police behavior.


ETA:  Because we are cross posting, I want to be clear:  I am not presuming French or Mech are themselves making excuses for law enforcement, or otherwise OK with bad behavior.  I just picked up on that one statement, and thought that deserved some discussion.  Every cop I've talked to in the last 10 years seems to think they are 1 second from open combat at all times, and can't be dissuaded by numbers or logic.  It's a real problem.  THat one blog we talked about on here last month by the commie claiming to be an ex-cop touched on the internalizing by cops and training programs of this imagined threat.

But is there actually a problem of over zealous cops? If there are 800,000 cops I would think we would be hearing way more about it by the media than what we do if basically every cop is some jack booted thug with a badge.

[French G.]

If the average LEO in America goes to work thinking they will [or might be] killed they are delusional.  


I thought he was saying the BLM/Antifa unrest would only add to the us vs them, "they're out to kill me" mindset.

Yes. I tell my kid and anyone who will listen that tow truck driver is a way more dangerous line of work.

[Ben]

Slight tangent, but I heard on the newz this morning that police retirement requests are in such large numbers right now, that some departments are suspending the requests because they can't keep up.

I can't help but think that a very large portion of the retirees are the kind of cops that actually have the temperament and ethics for the job, but have just had it.

[MechAg94]

Slight tangent, but I heard on the newz this morning that police retirement requests are in such large numbers right now, that some departments are suspending the requests because they can't keep up.

I can't help but think that a very large portion of the retirees are the kind of cops that actually have the temperament and ethics for the job, but have just had it.

We get the govt we elect.  If we continually elect criminals and hustlers, local law enforcement will eventually reflect that. 

Aside from that, if I was an officer in one of those leftist cities, I think I would be looking for a way out as well.