Author Topic: Electrical mystery  (Read 1714 times)

Hawkmoon

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Electrical mystery
« on: July 01, 2020, 02:00:19 PM »
I live in a 70-year old house. There's a single-tube, 24" fluorescent light on the ceiling above the kitchen sink. It works fine in winter, but in summer it gets flakey. Thinking it was the fixture, since changing the tube didn't help, a couple of years ago I replaced the entire fixture. Didn't help.

Yesterday it wouldn't turn on at all so, today, I replaced the switch. It still won't turn on.

Any ideas?
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2020, 02:03:19 PM »
Ballast, most likely.

Check incoming voltage. If you have 110v at the line/ballast union, the the ballast is probably lunched.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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WLJ

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2020, 02:03:37 PM »
So both the old and the new fixtures did the same thing and only in the summer?
Is the AC by chance on the same circuit? Surges/drops could be messing with the ballast
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WLJ

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2020, 02:08:43 PM »
Or the heat of summer is causing a crack in a wire to expand.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2020, 02:13:02 PM »
So both the old and the new fixtures did the same thing and only in the summer?
Is the AC by chance on the same circuit? Surges/drops could be messing with the ballast
Yes, the new fixture behaves the same as the old one.

No a/c. I have windows units, definitely not on the sanme circuit, and so far this year I haven't used them.

Brad, the new fixture obviously included a new ballast.
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Jim147

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2020, 02:15:38 PM »
Hard wired at the fixture or plug in?
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

Brad Johnson

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2020, 02:28:32 PM »

Brad, the new fixture obviously included a new ballast.


My bad. I glossed over the whole "replaced the fixture" thing.

I'd still measure voltage at the line/ballast union. Make sure you have full pop, and that a Friday Afternoon Electrician didn't do something dumb and tie into one leg of the AC circuit or something.

Is there any equipment that you breaker off for summer, or that switches over onto some kind of companion circuit for winter?

Brad

It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

K Frame

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2020, 02:30:10 PM »
Is your electric panel in a place where it gets hot?

Could be a loose connection at either the breaker, or it could be the breaker itself.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2020, 02:41:11 PM »
Also, was any major rewiring done in the late 60's to late 70's? If so, check for aluminum wiring.

Finally, are there any other circuits that die at the same time? Maybe it's something to do with the leg feeding one side of your service panel.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Nick1911

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2020, 02:45:26 PM »
You've got it easy now that it consistently don't work.  Start tracing, see where you lose power.

Jim147

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2020, 02:49:51 PM »
The power beepers are pretty cheap and easy why to see where power ends. I carry one in my pocket any time I go on a call that sounds like it might be power related.
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

Brad Johnson

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2020, 03:02:20 PM »
The power beepers are pretty cheap and easy why to see where power ends. I carry one in my pocket any time I go on a call that sounds like it might be power related.

This. A hot stick is great for tracing problem circuits. It's also cheap insurance against angry pixie attacks.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

230RN

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2020, 08:38:55 AM »
Might help, might not.

Similar problem once in a mobile home I had. 

Lights would go bright when a heavy-duty 110V appliance (I forget which) went on.  Burned out some things, like my answering machine.

Tracked it down to a high-resistance neutral from the metering box in the yard and going underground to the service box on the mobile home.
 
There were three separate wires underground and prior owner in a gardening frenzy had nicked the neutral line so that when the heavy appliance went on, nearly 220 appeared on the other side of the circuit.

The fault was not obvious at first, it was merely a matter of the neutral line getting worse over time until some of the lights were getting really bright.

Mobile home park's hired licensed electrician fixed it since it was on their side of the house's service box.

I'm thinking in your case the "heavy duty appliance" might have been a refrigerator, which one would expect to go on more in the summer than winter.

Might help, might not.  Figured I might as well throw my clues into the pot as well.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 09:01:20 AM by 230RN »

MechAg94

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2020, 09:03:47 AM »
Bad grounds can certainly screw things up. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Jim147

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2020, 09:46:46 AM »
I can't remeber what it was on but it was a house that during a hot dry summer you had to go out and dump five gallons of water on the ground rod to get things to work right.
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

Hawkmoon

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2020, 11:45:53 AM »
Hard wired at the fixture or plug in?

Hard wired (BX). Switch on wall.
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230RN

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2020, 09:19:03 PM »
I can't remeber what it was on but it was a house that during a hot dry summer you had to go out and dump five gallons of water on the ground rod to get things to work right.

Hams sometimes have antenna ground problems on this basis.  Very important.  I still have a length of bare  8ga Cu wire left over from my radial ground system.  =D > peeing on your ground rod or ground radials is a good way to dampen things up a little. So they joke. < =D





« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 09:39:23 PM by 230RN »

ConstitutionCowboy

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2020, 03:18:59 PM »
Hams sometimes have antenna ground problems on this basis.  Very important.  I still have a length of bare  8ga Cu wire left over from my radial ground system.  =D > peeing on your ground rod or ground radials is a good way to dampen things up a little. So they joke. < =D



Don't do this if there is a thunder storm anywhere within 5 miles. Your electrode might get a jolt beyond its current carrying capacity. :O

Woody
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ConstitutionCowboy

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2020, 04:56:43 PM »
Seriously, I had a similar problem a few houses ago. It ended up being the transformer on the power pole having a loose connection either internally or externally. It nearly cooked our A/C unit and some of the appliances on that leg. It was weird. Lights in one room would flicker or go out for a second or two and the lights in the room next to it stayed on steady as a rock.

Woody
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230RN

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2020, 08:32:08 AM »
Don't do this if there is a thunder storm anywhere within 5 miles. Your electrode might get a jolt beyond its current carrying capacity. :O

Woody

Hey!  You talkin' 'bout my electrode's current carrying capacity?  'Zat what yer sayin', boy?

(Hams are pretty generally aware of lightning protection.  I had a lightning arrestor on my feed line, but I would also short my 'toony to ground if it was threatening out there.)

zxcvbob

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2020, 10:23:54 AM »
I can't remeber what it was on but it was a house that during a hot dry summer you had to go out and dump five gallons of water on the ground rod to get things to work right.

The ground rod is a safety ground, it's not required for the circuits to work.  If it is required for things to work right, that means you have a bad neutral feed (which is pretty serious)
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2020, 11:50:05 AM »
Rental house in Norfolk, older house, pre WWII.
Late July, early August in Norfolk VA, hot and humid.

My electrical problem started as a clogged kitchen sink drain.
Got after it with a plunger but the old pipes under the sink were a little weak and separated at the joint at the P-trap to the drain line. Instantly started drawing about a 1" blue arc.

WTF!!!

Ran out to the breaker box and killed the mains. Did NOT fix the problem. I put a meter across it and was showing 110Vac with the main breaker open!

Called the landlord and he sent out his electrician. He spent a couple hours scratching his head but in the end had not a clue what the hell was going on and suggest the power company get involved and left.

We are now into the morning of day 2 and the power company comes out and spends most of the day looking for the problem. Up and down the block disconnecting and reconnecting different feeds. They even hooked up the wife's clothes iron to the pipes and it heated right up. They bail at about 4:00 pm with no resolution.
That afternoon I had just signed out on 18 days leave for a much anticipated and long planned cross country motorcycle trip to Sturgis by way of SW Colorado, obviously I can't leave till this gets fixed.

We are now into day 3. I'm a little annoyed that the landlord, the electrician and the power company seem to have just left me hanging. By damn, it was working when the pipes were all connected up it ought to *expletive deleted*ing work if I put it all back together.
I acquired all the plumbing fittings to reassemble the sink drains, set up big rubber mats and very carefully connected big ass jumper cables from the sink to the drain line. There was a few seconds of moderate humming and then it all got quiet. Checked with the meter and no voltage, pulled the jumper cables and still dead. Put the jumper cable back and proceeded to repair the plumbing. After that was all I back together I again verified no foreign voltage on my plumbing lines.
I then had to crawl under the house to find the clean outs in the old cast iron drain lines to clear the clog.  Under that old house it was hot, dry and dusty with about 3" of fine powdery dust. I was covered in sweat and mud and crawling out about noon when the power company shows up to continue their feeble efforts. I tell them what I had done and that the trouble seems to have cleared. I get a stern lecture about electrical safety and I come back with a scathing critique of their efforts so far including my opinion about their lack of communications when they had left us hanging the day before. The power company guy and I are getting a little heated up when the head foreman/supervisor (retired Navy Chief electricians Mate) and intervenes. I tell him what I had done and explained that if I had been told that they were coming back to keep looking for the problem I might have waited, but either way I was back in business and they could do as they damn well please at this point, I'm gonna go take a shower.

They kept after it for several hours and eventually found the problem. At some point the house had had a slate roof installed. The power drop from the transformer was fastend to the underside to the open eves and a nail had crossed a hot wire and the neutral. When the sink drain had separated it opened the circuit between the cast iron drain pipes and the metal water pipes that had been grounding it all.  The power company installed a new drop and re-did the grounding.

The next day I departed on an epic 6000 mile road trip.
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ConstitutionCowboy

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2020, 07:57:02 PM »
Hey!  You talkin' 'bout my electrode's current carrying capacity?  'Zat what yer sayin', boy?

(Hams are pretty generally aware of lightning protection.  I had a lightning arrestor on my feed line, but I would also short my 'toony to ground if it was threatening out there.)

Men our age jess need to be careful izzall..... too many youthful pulchritudinous prospects out there Jess lookin for experienced gents to show them whats missin in their life for us to be sportin' shorted electrodes! (When you short your feed line to ground, doesnnit chafe your 'toony?)

Woody
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230RN

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2020, 09:43:27 PM »
RoadKingLarry explained:

Quote
They kept after it for several hours and eventually found the problem. At some point the house had had a slate roof installed. The power drop from the transformer was fastend to the underside to the open eves and a nail had crossed a hot wire and the neutral. When the sink drain had separated it opened the circuit between the cast iron drain pipes and the metal water pipes that had been grounding it all.  The power company installed a new drop and re-did the grounding.

Now that took some real detective work.

Constitution Cowboy remarked,

Quote
Men our age jess need to be careful izzall..... too many youthful pulchritudinous prospects out there jess lookin' for experienced gents to show them what's missin' in their life for us to be sportin' shorted electrodes!

Yeah, that worked out great until they discovered I was more of a saccharine daddy than a sugar daddy.  >:D
« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 10:03:33 PM by 230RN »

ConstitutionCowboy

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Re: Electrical mystery
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2020, 11:09:08 AM »
...

Yeah, that worked out great until they discovered I was more of a saccharine daddy than a sugar daddy.  >:D


That's OK. I think we can still fake it, can't we? =D

Woody
   "Knowing the past, I'll not surrender any arms and march less prepared into the future."   B.E.Wood