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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #325 on: September 10, 2020, 09:34:55 AM »

Now Pittsburgh. "Police are investigating". Translation: You're on your own.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2020/09/08/thugs-president-trump-calls-out-blm-protesters-in-pittsburgh/

Yeah, but ...

Quote
    WTAE: Pittsburgh police investigate after videos surface of protesters clashing with the public https://t.co/mlcQ43rz8o

    — Jake Tapper (@jaketapper) September 7, 2020

... they were "mostly peaceful" clashes, so it's all cool.
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MechAg94
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« Reply #326 on: September 10, 2020, 10:35:50 AM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=levJfMgNeY4&feature=youtu.be

Decide if you agree or not.  Timcast says the Feds deputized local LEO's and are prosecuting rioters in federal court.  Protests are becoming more peaceful for some reason. 
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« Reply #327 on: September 10, 2020, 02:59:02 PM »

Already caught a few red handed.

Red-handed or flame-footed, as long they're caught.
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MillCreek
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« Reply #328 on: September 11, 2020, 05:05:23 AM »

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/oregon-officials-squash-rumors-that-far-right-far-left-are-setting-the-fires-ravaging-the-state/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=owned_echobox_f&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0MjVDop8k2d0t3M7dpjzKd70qskds5G0NwR3AKPw31ysZRX5fKnE4WD74#Echobox=1599798364
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makattak
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« Reply #329 on: September 11, 2020, 05:36:27 AM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=levJfMgNeY4&feature=youtu.be

Decide if you agree or not.  Timcast says the Feds deputized local LEO's and are prosecuting rioters in federal court.  Protests are becoming more peaceful for some reason.  

When a locality is in rebellion and refuses to enforce the laws, this is likely the least intrusive thing the federal government can do to protect its citizens.

Additionally, while I'd prefer the federal government didn't have laws that should be left to the state, they do. It really seems this part of the fight (which no one here has taken up, I do note) is a rather foolish one. Concerns about Federal laws should be dealt with at the passing of those laws, not the enforcement of them.
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« Reply #330 on: September 14, 2020, 11:06:44 AM »

Quote
Profile photo, opens profile page on Twitter in a new tab
Ed Markey
@SenMarkey
Portland police routinely attack peaceful protestors with brute force. We must disarm these officers, and every other police department in America, of weapons of war, and enact a nationwide ban on tear gas, rubber and plastic bullets, and bean bag rounds.

https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2020/09/14/insane-idiocy-dem-sen-ed-markey-wants-to-strip-every-police-department-in-america-of-nonlethal-tools-and-what-could-possibly-go-wrong/

So just lethal force then? Got it.
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MechAg94
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« Reply #331 on: September 14, 2020, 11:24:44 AM »

I am surprised they don't demand the officers have their hands tied behind their back also. 
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« Reply #332 on: September 14, 2020, 12:20:34 PM »

I am surprised they don't demand the officers have their hands tied behind their back also. 

The officers could at least kneel and apologize for being white.
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MechAg94
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« Reply #333 on: September 16, 2020, 05:36:56 AM »

Judge sets bail to $1 million for Lancaster protesters; Lt. Gov. Fetterman calls it 'unconstitutional'
https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/judge-sets-bail-to-1-million-for-lancaster-protesters-lt-gov-fetterman-calls-it-unconstitutional/article_559d0ee6-f761-11ea-bc14-033258e21d5e.html

I think PA stumbled upon a way to shut down the rioting.  Don't immediately let the ones arrested for serious charges back out of jail.  An actual speedy trial would be helpful also but that seems impossible these days.

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« Reply #334 on: September 16, 2020, 06:29:56 AM »

Judge sets bail to $1 million for Lancaster protesters; Lt. Gov. Fetterman calls it 'unconstitutional'
https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/judge-sets-bail-to-1-million-for-lancaster-protesters-lt-gov-fetterman-calls-it-unconstitutional/article_559d0ee6-f761-11ea-bc14-033258e21d5e.html

I think PA stumbled upon a way to shut down the rioting.  Don't immediately let the ones arrested for serious charges back out of jail.  An actual speedy trial would be helpful also but that seems impossible these days.



When the DA won't bring charges and just lets everyone go, there will be no bail.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/juliorosas/2020/08/12/liberal-da-announces-hell-will-not-prosecute-many-of-the-arrested-rioters-portlan-n2574203
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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #335 on: September 16, 2020, 06:36:54 AM »

Judge sets bail to $1 million for Lancaster protesters; Lt. Gov. Fetterman calls it 'unconstitutional'
https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/judge-sets-bail-to-1-million-for-lancaster-protesters-lt-gov-fetterman-calls-it-unconstitutional/article_559d0ee6-f761-11ea-bc14-033258e21d5e.html

I think PA stumbled upon a way to shut down the rioting.  Don't immediately let the ones arrested for serious charges back out of jail.  An actual speedy trial would be helpful also but that seems impossible these days.




That's in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

Different state, different side of the country...

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« Reply #336 on: September 16, 2020, 06:50:49 AM »

Judge sets bail to $1 million for Lancaster protesters; Lt. Gov. Fetterman calls it 'unconstitutional'
https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/judge-sets-bail-to-1-million-for-lancaster-protesters-lt-gov-fetterman-calls-it-unconstitutional/article_559d0ee6-f761-11ea-bc14-033258e21d5e.html

I think PA stumbled upon a way to shut down the rioting.  Don't immediately let the ones arrested for serious charges back out of jail.  An actual speedy trial would be helpful also but that seems impossible these days.



[Devil's Advocate]

Then what would you consider to be "excessive bail" then?  At least one of those charged is a 20 year old student at a public university.  She doesn't have $1 million dollars.  Odds are she doesn't even have the 10% that is normally a bail bondman's cut.  The judge effectively remanded them without bail.

If that was the judges intention due to the seriousness of the felony, then the judge should have just done that.

Bail is supposed to be set low enough you can actually pay it, but high enough that you are unlikely to write it off and run. The idea is the accused can leave jail to live and work until they are found guilty or not. Setting bail at more then the accused is likely to make in the next decade combined seems pretty unreasonable.

[/Devil's Advocate]
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TommyGunn
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« Reply #337 on: September 16, 2020, 06:56:51 AM »

Somebody needs to shoot the devil .....  Tinfoil Hat Smiley angel   .....  Evil
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« Reply #338 on: September 16, 2020, 07:08:37 AM »

I wonder if the fact that celebrities and ideological supporters are fronting bail money was factored in.  That is to say, if there is a large fund that is specifically intended to be used to free rioters so they can go back to rioting after being arrested, setting bail amounts as though the accused were using only their own money, or cared if the money was returned may not be effective.
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Ben
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« Reply #339 on: September 16, 2020, 07:21:17 AM »

Dogmush's reasoning is one of the first things that popped into my mind. While I am happy they are finally doing something about these jackasses, I was also thinking, "What if it was an armed protest of gun owners in a radically left area?" A judge there could do the same $1mil thing advocating from the bench. I always think about the "Reid Rule" and how that stuff can backfire depending on who's in charge.

Then I also read what Cordex wrote, and can't help but wonder if the celebrity bail funds and other factors played into it.

These are people that are clearly destroying things, and the idiots even record themselves doing it. So innocent until proven guilty, but once they get to court, guilt will likely be easy to prove. So  I guess we have to ask, how do we get them to court? How do we assure speedy trials? How do we make sure they don't get a slap on the wrist? Given the latter, we see many of these people have already gotten multiple slaps on the wrist and it's not a deterrent.
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MechAg94
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« Reply #340 on: September 16, 2020, 07:31:46 AM »

I don't really disagree with dogmush.  $1 Million is excessive even though arson is a very serious crime.  It might be better to withhold bail for a short time until an initial hearing to evaluate the case.  That bail amount might be more reasonable if it was shown the person was let go and then did the same crime again.  They also did not say what the other riot related charges are. 

I do think the solution to the bail problem would be a speedy trial.  I don't know how we could do that.  The system seems to be set up to slow things down.
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TommyGunn
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« Reply #341 on: September 16, 2020, 07:36:15 AM »

Dogmush does make a good point.   My "shoot the devil" comment was sarcasm,  as I hope was indicated by the smilies.

One million $$$  may be excessive,  but bail should HURT.    Just not be IMPOSSIBLE.
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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #342 on: September 16, 2020, 07:40:20 AM »

Given the seriousness of the charges, I think the magistrate in question should re-examine the bail issue...

And order them remanded without bail.

Problem solved.
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dogmush
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« Reply #343 on: September 16, 2020, 07:58:28 AM »

I would think that in the case of folks organizing protests, or folks like the shooter in Portland where they are in for the third time on the same charge while waiting on the first court date, or arsonists out west the answer is to remand without bail.

You don't HAVE to give someone bail, but if you do, it can't be excessive.  Give them the speedy trial they are entitled to and move on.

IANAL, so maybe there is some court precedent that I am unaware of that limits the ability of a judge to hold a person without bail, but if there is, that's the issue, and backdoor remanding by bails they can't pay is not the answer.

Cordex's point is valid as far as it goes, but I'm not sure how much hand waving "someone rich will help them" we want to use to justify bails.  Rich sponsors are always an issue in revelations.

Some comparison bails I could look up real quick:

MLK Jr., Birmingham, 1967 $5000 ($38,909.88 in 2020 dollars)  [I'm sure this is how they see themselves.]
OJ Simpson, LA, 1994 $10,000,000 ($17,538,326.59 in 2020)
George Zimmerman, Orlando, 2012 $150,000 then $1,000,000 (second bail amount was after it was discovered that he had failed to disclose $150,000 in donations* in the first hearing) ($169,811.49-$1,132,076.62 in 2020 dollars)

So what's "excessive"?

*There's Cordex's answer.  If there's an active GoFundMe with a quarter mil in it, the judge may be spot on.
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kgbsquirrel
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« Reply #344 on: September 16, 2020, 09:37:27 AM »

[Devil's Advocate]

Then what would you consider to be "excessive bail" then?  At least one of those charged is a 20 year old student at a public university.  She doesn't have $1 million dollars.  Odds are she doesn't even have the 10% that is normally a bail bondman's cut.  The judge effectively remanded them without bail.

If that was the judges intention due to the seriousness of the felony, then the judge should have just done that.

Bail is supposed to be set low enough you can actually pay it, but high enough that you are unlikely to write it off and run. The idea is the accused can leave jail to live and work until they are found guilty or not. Setting bail at more then the accused is likely to make in the next decade combined seems pretty unreasonable.

[/Devil's Advocate]

Not even Devil's Advocate; you articulated the core ethics and spirit of bail in a liberty based justice system as they should be.
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cordex
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« Reply #345 on: September 16, 2020, 09:46:48 AM »

*There's Cordex's answer.  If there's an active GoFundMe with a quarter mil in it, the judge may be spot on.
Back in June it was reported that Minnesota Freedom Fund received $20 million in donations to help pay protester's bail, to the point that they had to tell people to stop donating and pointed donations elsewhere.  There are plenty of other national and local funds set up to do the same sort of thing.

These kinds of funds would not be raised specifically for a given person as was the case for Zimmerman, which may cloud the issue.
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MechAg94
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« Reply #346 on: September 16, 2020, 09:56:34 AM »

The bail should be high enough they don't try to miss their court date.  But it shouldn't be designed to tie up all the money someone has.  I didn't understand the Zimmerman donation part.  

An example of absurdly high bail for no reason was after the Twin Peaks biker shooting in Waco, TX a few years ago.  The cops arrested nearly 200 people and the judge slapped $1,000,000 bail amounts on almost all of them.  Most of the people arrested were not involved in the shooting.  A number of people were stuck in jail over a year or two because they couldn't afford to pay a bail bond.  (they never did convict anyone over the incident)  I think lawsuits are pending on that one.
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