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Author Topic: Dune  (Read 1005 times)
Ron
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« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2020, 06:00:06 AM »

I read the first few Dune novels a couple decades ago.

I've never read Foundation.

If you've read both what would you recommend?

Should I reread Dune or read Foundation?

I have Dune on my Kindle already just waiting for me to jump into it. I have Foundation in my saved for later at Amazon.

Foundation has been recommended to me twice this year, from a cousin and a friend.

Maybe I'll try and knock em both out this winter.
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« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2020, 06:00:41 AM »

One of the things I really like about the Dune trailer is the dialogue between the Reverend Mother and Paul- it introduces the plot very well.  One of the big challenges of the movie is to avoid confusing people, and i think that did it very well.

And the weapons, armor, and sword fighting looked really cool too... grin

The use of heavy wearable body armor (along with the shields) makes sense in the Dune universe if blades are the most common weapon.

This was only briefly mentioned in the book (chain mail on Fayd Rautha).

Notice when Idaho is fighting the Sadukar?  There was a light effect when he stabbed one.  It looks like there may be some special tech with the blade that lets it penetrate physical armor... which is an neat concept!
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« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2020, 06:02:36 AM »

I was not fond of Foundation.  Obviously, opinions vary.

I do love Dune.

Keep in mind that "moral" behind Dune is not especially apparent in the first book (though hinted at).

I wonder how they will handle it in the book.
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JN01
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« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2020, 11:49:39 AM »

For hard Sci-Fi fans Foundation is coming up too.
Hopefully they won't screw this one up and give it the woke treatment. Unfortunately from what little we see in the trailer they may have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZd3xUDudy8

For those unfamiliar with Foundation. Many consider it the daddy, or grand daddy depending on how you look at it, of modern hard Sci-fi including Dune
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_(Asimov_novel)

Now that I would be interested in.  Not going to subscribe to Apple TV just to see it, however.
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« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2020, 03:32:06 PM »

From what I remember about Foundation, it was sort of a Great Man Theory of History the Future, and then The Mule comes along and takes that concept to 11, and not in a good way. Not sure I'd be interested in a film version. Dune I wouldn't read, but might want to watch a (good) film version.

The worm in that trailer is sick!
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« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2020, 06:11:12 AM »


. . . .

Notice when Idaho is fighting the Sadukar?  There was a light effect when he stabbed one.  It looks like there may be some special tech with the blade that lets it penetrate physical armor... which is a neat concept!

No blade tech required, shields can be penetrated by something moving slow enough. 
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« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2020, 06:24:27 AM »

For hard Sci-Fi fans Foundation is coming up too.
Hopefully they won't screw this one up and give it the woke treatment. Unfortunately from what little we see in the trailer they may have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZd3xUDudy8

For those unfamiliar with Foundation. Many consider it the daddy, or grand daddy depending on how you look at it, of modern hard Sci-fi including Dune
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_(Asimov_novel)

From the looks of it, they're actually doing "Prelude to Foundation" which is the novel I've actually read vs. Foundation which I don't know if I'll ever get around to. 
(Minor spoilers ahead)

Quick synopsis: "Prelude to foundation" is a guy (Hari Seldon, apparently the main character in this series) learning that he can predict events perfectly with enough data on history.* He's aided by a super intelligent AI with some telepathic abilities. I'm guessing the diverse lady isn't the AI.

Foundation is thousands of years in the future where Hari is long dead, but has left a series of instructions only to be opened at specific times in history, to guide humanity through the upcoming crisis. At every point in the last 1000 or so years, the instructions have perfectly described the events happening and what humanity should choose to do. Until "now". This time the galaxy looks absolutely nothing like what he predicted and the leaders panic. It is discovered that his analysis failed because of a biological anomaly that he could not account for. ("The Mule")

I have doubts this will be good, as my recollections don't really match up with the ACTION!!! and INTRIGUE!!! that the trailer suggests will drive the plot.




*(Deterministic view of the world, btw, and wrong because of less than perfect knowledge, but I digress.)

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« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2020, 06:37:45 AM »

No blade tech required, shields can be penetrated by something moving slow enough. 

Not the metal body armor they are wearing in the trailer though.

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MechAg94
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« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2020, 07:04:49 AM »

From the looks of it, they're actually doing "Prelude to Foundation" which is the novel I've actually read vs. Foundation which I don't know if I'll ever get around to. 
(Minor spoilers ahead)

Quick synopsis: "Prelude to foundation" is a guy (Hari Seldon, apparently the main character in this series) learning that he can predict events perfectly with enough data on history.* He's aided by a super intelligent AI with some telepathic abilities. I'm guessing the diverse lady isn't the AI.

Foundation is thousands of years in the future where Hari is long dead, but has left a series of instructions only to be opened at specific times in history, to guide humanity through the upcoming crisis. At every point in the last 1000 or so years, the instructions have perfectly described the events happening and what humanity should choose to do. Until "now". This time the galaxy looks absolutely nothing like what he predicted and the leaders panic. It is discovered that his analysis failed because of a biological anomaly that he could not account for. ("The Mule")

I have doubts this will be good, as my recollections don't really match up with the ACTION!!! and INTRIGUE!!! that the trailer suggests will drive the plot.




*(Deterministic view of the world, btw, and wrong because of less than perfect knowledge, but I digress.)


I don't remember Prelude to Foundation including an AI.  And if I remember right, Hari's plan was to recover from the collapse of the Galactic empire in 1000 years instead of the predicted 10,000. 

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« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2020, 07:26:40 AM »

I thought the shield technology made projectile weapons ineffective so fighting went back down to hand weapons.  I guess since sword swings would be stopped by the shield, shorter knives became preferred weapons.  It might be interesting to see one of the youtube medieval weapons guys take a deep dive on that subject.  I am curious if the experts would recommend other potential choices.  Also, if you can't bring a blade in hard, wouldn't chain mail work pretty good? 

The 80's movie showed some sort of projectile gun that fired a round that slowly penetrated the shield.  I only remember it being used once.  If it existed, why not use it all the time. 

The book seemed to indicate there was a lot of suppression of technology if it would threaten the Emperor's power.  There were also some extreme rules against using computers or AI.  I don't remember where they drew the line. 
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« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2020, 07:36:18 AM »

I don't remember Prelude to Foundation including an AI.  And if I remember right, Hari's plan was to recover from the collapse of the Galactic empire in 1000 years instead of the predicted 10,000. 



The AI was Dors Venibili Hari Seldon's Girlfriend then wife. She was a humanform robot. Nobody but Hari Seldon knew this, or even he just suspected, but didn't know for sure or care. She was working for Daneel Olivaw the first humanform robot who'd been around for 10,000 years since the old-Earth and the original 50 Spacer colonies. (Caves of Steel, Robots of Dawn, The Naked Sun)

Daneel was working under the guidance of the "Zeroth Law", the implied meta-robotic law that supersedes the first law. Namely that a robot must work to prevent harm to all of humanity collectively. Which is why he helped foster the growth of the Galactic Empire, and then encouraged Hari Seldon's Psychohistory to shorten it's collapse. Always looking for ways to keep the galaxy as peaceful and unified as possible.
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« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2020, 07:44:17 AM »

I don't remember Prelude to Foundation including an AI.  And if I remember right, Hari's plan was to recover from the collapse of the Galactic empire in 1000 years instead of the predicted 10,000.  

From Wiki:

Quote
The finale reveals that "Hummin" is actually Eto Demerzel. Seldon then gets Demerzel to admit he is a robot; Demerzel is in fact R. Daneel Olivaw, who can influence humans mentally. He wants the development of psychohistory to help him better protect humanity, as per "The Zeroth Law Of Robotics". Seldon also suspects Venabili of being a robot, as well.

Ah, I see AJ recalled more of the specifics than I did. As I recall, Daneel was also in works from thousands of years before, e.g. Robots of Dawn.
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« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2020, 07:46:56 AM »

It has been years since I read the Foundation books.  Those were details I forgot.  Thanks. 
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« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2020, 08:05:37 AM »

Re Dune: if memory serves, the personal shields were of limited utility on Arrakis because the energy field attracted sandworms.
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« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2020, 09:28:51 AM »

Re Dune: if memory serves, the personal shields were of limited utility on Arrakis because the energy field attracted sandworms.


Yes, Herbert used the shields to keep ray-gun play at a minimum to get the neo-feudal feel he wanted in his book, and then he did away with shields by making their vibrations drive the worms crazy.

Personally, I think with all the high technology the Dune universe possessed even after the Butlarian anti-AI jihad the answer would be to just use ever larger guns that would knock a shield user ass-over-teakettle so hard that they'd die anyway even if the shield prevented penetration of the round.

So I imagine everyone running around with semi-automatic over-the-shoulder recoiless rifles.
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« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2020, 09:30:44 AM »



So I imagine everyone running around with semi-automatic over-the-shoulder recoiless rifles.

You mean all the time, or just when you think about Dune?
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« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2020, 09:41:02 AM »

Yes, Herbert used the shields to keep ray-gun play at a minimum to get the neo-feudal feel he wanted in his book, and then he did away with shields by making their vibrations drive the worms crazy.

Personally, I think with all the high technology the Dune universe possessed even after the Butlarian anti-AI jihad the answer would be to just use ever larger guns that would knock a shield user ass-over-teakettle so hard that they'd die anyway even if the shield prevented penetration of the round.

So I imagine everyone running around with semi-automatic over-the-shoulder recoiless rifles.

Evidently if laser weapons were used against shields, it would set of an explosion on par with nuclear yield weapons.  IIRC, the Baron exploited this when attacking the Atreides on Arrakis to bring down their shields around the palace.  And the Baron did deploy artillery, too, which was an "ancient" concept to their perspective.  Seems military tech ran cyclical; as defenses cycled, offensive strategies would also change, requiring alternative defenses... but that things tended to return to once-outdated concepts.

And I believe that shields redirect kinetic energy of the offending mass away from the shield.  So a massive projectile wouldn't help. 
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« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2020, 09:45:33 AM »

There was one point in the 80's movie that showed a gun being used.  Fired some sort of bullet or missile that went through the shield slow.  Never saw it used again in the movie.  You would think there would be clouds of those on the battlefield if they were useful.
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« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2020, 10:50:47 AM »

This thread is making me want to read Dune again for the umpteenth time . . .

I didn't notice the armor in the trailer.  I don't recall kinetic armor in the books. 
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« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2020, 11:34:27 AM »

This thread is making me want to read Dune again for the umpteenth time . . .

I didn't notice the armor in the trailer.  I don't recall kinetic armor in the books. 
That isn't a bad idea.  I don't remember all the details either. 
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« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2020, 12:08:47 PM »

This thread is making me want to read Dune again for the umpteenth time . . .

I didn't notice the armor in the trailer.  I don't recall kinetic armor in the books. 

Yeah, but now these guys are throwing Foundation in there too. It has been longer since I read the Foundation series than the Dune series. Hitting both is some serious reading time!  laugh

On Foundation the movie, frankly, while I liked the book, from what I remember, if a movie at all follows the book, the movie will be boring as hell. Foundation just seems to be a more gripping tale in the written word.
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« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2020, 12:25:04 PM »

Hate to admit this...

But I'm not sure that I've ever even heard of the Foundation series...
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« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2020, 12:53:53 PM »

Yeah, but now these guys are throwing Foundation in there too. It has been longer since I read the Foundation series than the Dune series. Hitting both is some serious reading time!  laugh

On Foundation the movie, frankly, while I liked the book, from what I remember, if a movie at all follows the book, the movie will be boring as hell. Foundation just seems to be a more gripping tale in the written word.
I remember realized it was a bit different as it always involved the hero thinking their way out of the problem rather than fighting. 
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« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2020, 06:50:07 AM »

There was one point in the 80's movie that showed a gun being used.  Fired some sort of bullet or missile that went through the shield slow.  Never saw it used again in the movie.  You would think there would be clouds of those on the battlefield if they were useful.

Yeah, the book makes mention of "Slow pellet stunners" that could go through a shield, however it's not clear how a pellet or dart moving slow enough to penetrate a shield wouldn't have excessive drop or be nearly useless as a "gun". And that limitation aside, the dart or pellet would have to be very heavy to make up for it's low velocity.

And considering a shield would fend off even a knife blow at fast human speed, that's really slow, like slower than throwing speed. Considering it's possible to see and dodge Airsoft BB's and paintballs in flight at round 290-300fps without Dune super-skill, it just doesn't seem like a really feasible thing.

Although in the Lynch film, I kind of pictured the projectile that killed Duncan Idaho as some kind of hunter seeker. (more handavium give or take on how suspensors interact with shields) Where the dart was very heavy, and the suspensors kept it flying level, at a velocity that could penetrate the shield and keep on pushing slowly.

If I were to armor up troops for the Dune universe, I'd fit the guns with bullets that were small disposable laser pointers. Since a laser touching a shield causes them both to explode. Just have the laser bullet distance armed and boom. Although the lasgun/shield explosion handwavium isn't clear if it's the power supply or just the act of being touched with the laser that explodes.
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« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2020, 06:55:27 AM »

"Yeah, the book makes mention of "Slow pellet stunners" that could go through a shield, however it's not clear how a pellet or dart moving slow enough to penetrate a shield wouldn't have excessive drop or be nearly useless as a "gun". And that limitation aside, the dart or pellet would have to be very heavy to make up for it's low velocity. "

My guess? They work sort of the same way as the hunter-seeker that's used to try to assassinate Paul.

"The device floated through the air, using a tiny Holtzman Field Generatorto maneuver. The tip held a camera that transmitted a video signal back to the operator. Vision was distorted by the compressed suspensor field. Once detected, the target was almost guaranteed to be killed. The killing device itself was a tiny needle, tipped with a quick-acting, lethal poison. The needle was retracted until a target is acquired, at which point it appeared, shortly before the device shot into the victim."


So, a dumb version of a hunter seeker with no drop and no need to be controlled by someone.
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