Louisville Metro declares "State of Emergency"

[charby]

Then you might not have the high ground on basically saying drivers in other areas are to blame if they get stuck in a bad situation.

Probably but some people do have their head up their asses and/or can't think outside the box.

[Angel Eyes]

The son of a friend of mine works at one of Louisville's downtown hotels.  He said his hotel is about the only one open and he's a jack of all trades there now due to lack of staff.  All the news people are staying there.  He said the entire perimeter and every street of the city is blocked by heavy vehicles and there's a curfew.  Downtown is basically abandoned.  He brought the police food and beverages last night and they were very grateful.

He got a call from one of his co-workers yesterday and she asked him if it's safe to come into work.  He told her it was totally her call.  At 11:00 last night she called him and said the shooting of two cops happened right outside her apartment, so she'll be taking some time off.

I suppose it's her own fault for lacking "situational awareness" ...

[charby]

The son of a friend of mine works at one of Louisville's downtown hotels.  He said his hotel is about the only one open and he's a jack of all trades there now due to lack of staff.  All the news people are staying there.  He said the entire perimeter and every street of the city is blocked by heavy vehicles and there's a curfew.  Downtown is basically abandoned.  He brought the police food and beverages last night and they were very grateful.

He got a call from one of his co-workers yesterday and she asked him if it's safe to come into work.  He told her it was totally her call.  At 11:00 last night she called him and said the shooting of two cops happened right outside her apartment, so she'll be taking some time off.

I suppose it's her own fault for lacking "situational awareness" ...

She made the decision to stay put instead of going to work. I would say that is situational awareness.

[dogmush]

Let's make blocking streets during a protest illegal unless there is a permit pulled and an alternative route for traffic provided.

Streets are a public right away for cars and bikes.

Yes, absolutely, but other folks breaking the law does not give us the right to do so.  As I said before, in *most* cases a mob blocking the street is not going to be justification for running them over (unless you are law enforcement, different rules there).  Which is why the driver that started this conversation was detained.

Basically: Shoulda, woulda, coulda.  Don't plan for what should be, plan for what IS.

[Ben]

Yes, absolutely, but other folks breaking the law does not give us the right to do so.  As I said before, in *most* cases a mob blocking the street is not going to be justification for running them over

But I think we should clarify that. If they are really, truly peaceful and all they've done is block the road shouting obnoxious slogans, if I can't back away, I might be inclined to just sit there and open a book on the phone, like I do if there's a pileup on the freeway that I got stuck behind.

Once they start yelling at me though, or threatening me, or start beating on my car, or trying to open my doors, the phone goes away, the gun goes in my lap, and legal or not, I'm ready to use the car as a weapon if by that time I'm even able to and not blocked in by other cars.

And that's me as a single guy. If I had a family / children in the car, my fear for their safety might have pegged well before then.

[dogmush]

You do you.  There's an AR and 5 mags plus plates in the back of my truck today, and I drove the truck instead of the sedan specifically because I was concerned about "drive over obstacle capabilities" after some sportiness in St. Pete last night, so I understand your feelings.

My whole argument has been not to kowtow to the enemy, but rather to be aware of their tactics and prepared for any of the various tactics they use from twitter videos to Reginald Denny.

Just be aware that if you pull a gun because a crowd stopped you and was yelling at you, you are very likely breaking the law, and at risk for being the bad guy on twitter and MSM and possibly arrest warrants.  Justification for brandishing varies by local, so just know where you are at.

I guess I am also trying to articulate that "self defense", at this point, has expanded from just surviving the encounter (which is trivially easy in a car) to surviving, winning the legal battle, and winning the media spin so the next mob doesn't come to your house or drive you to suicide.  You are doing yourself a disservice to concentrate on the easy part (surviving the encounter) at the expense of winning the after battles.

[Nightfall]

Here in Washington, we have case law such that if you are in your car, someone breaks your window and tries to drag you out, you cannot use deadly force.  The driver in that instance was convicted of first degree manslaughter and served time.

Could you provide more specifics? Curious as another WA resident.

[Ben]

Just be aware that if you pull a gun because a crowd stopped you and was yelling at you, you are very likely breaking the law, and at risk for being the bad guy on twitter and MSM and possibly arrest warrants.  Justification for brandishing varies by local, so just know where you are at.

I wasn't talking about pulling and pointing (initially), but having it better prepared than a holster or door pocket if a rock or bat go through my window and I can't use the car to get away. I don't think I would do the display thing that the guy in Louisiville did the other day (but maybe - I wasn't there in his shoes), which I guess got him fired from his job.

I guess I am also trying to articulate that "self defense", at this point, has expanded from just surviving the encounter (which is trivially easy in a car) to surviving, winning the legal battle, and winning the media spin so the next mob doesn't come to your house or drive you to suicide.  You are doing yourself a disservice to concentrate on the easy part (surviving the encounter) at the expense of winning the after battles.

This is a sad fact that will get someone seriously injured or killed - because of the fear of them going to jail instead of the aggressor - in the back of their mind during any encounters.

[DittoHead]

winning the media spin

While I agree with your overall point you've been making, I don't think there's a lot you can do to control this.
And to the extent you can control this, having any post history on a forum like this is probably unwise. 

[MechAg94]

I may have missed it, but did the local police release the video from the police raid that killed Breonna Taylor?  I haven't been paying attention to the details of this case lately.

I heard people mention that it appears the police knocked and announced themselves and shots were fire through the door at the police before they fired.  I haven't seen anything official talk about that. 

[Hawkmoon]

I heard people mention that it appears the police knocked and announced themselves and shots were fire through the door at the police before they fired.  I haven't seen anything official talk about that. 

Knock-and-announce warrants are functionally the same as no-knock warrants. Courts have ruled that the police only have to wait a ridiculously short time between the announcement before they can initiate a "dynamic entry" (that's SWAT talk for busting down the door). I think I've seen numbers as low as 15 seconds, but maybe it was 30 seconds.

That's not enough time, and they know it. I'm a heavy sleeper, I sleep in a second floor bedroom, and there are no windows facing the front of the house on the second floor. There's a hall between my bedroom door (which I close at night) and the stairs, and another hall between the stairs and the front door on the ground floor. Someone could be pounding on the door for fifteen minutes and I probably wouldn't wake up. What would possibly wake me up would be someone breaking through the front door -- because that would set off the alarm. And since I know I haven't committed any crimes, my first assumption would be that anyone breaking into my house is a bad guy. If they come up the stairs, I'm likely going to open fire. And I think that's a reasonable response. I have posted before that my brother once lived very close to where the Petit family were killed, in Cheshire, Connecticut. Probably because I knew little brother had lived nearby, I followed that case fairly closely. It's certainly going to be front and center in my thought processes if someone breaks into my house. And anyone can say, "I'm the police."

[dogmush]

I may have missed it, but did the local police release the video from the police raid that killed Breonna Taylor?  I haven't been paying attention to the details of this case lately.

The police have said that no footage of the raid exists.

https://www.wdrb.com/in-depth/lmpd-photos-show-at-least-1-officer-wearing-body-cam-on-night-of-breonna-taylor/article_8a31d070-eebe-11ea-8dac-1f2491f002dc.html

[RoadKingLarry]

The police have said that no footage of the raid exists.

https://www.wdrb.com/in-depth/lmpd-photos-show-at-least-1-officer-wearing-body-cam-on-night-of-breonna-taylor/article_8a31d070-eebe-11ea-8dac-1f2491f002dc.html

Damned convenient that is.

[Hawkmoon]

Damned convenient that is.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

[MechAg94]

The police have said that no footage of the raid exists.

https://www.wdrb.com/in-depth/lmpd-photos-show-at-least-1-officer-wearing-body-cam-on-night-of-breonna-taylor/article_8a31d070-eebe-11ea-8dac-1f2491f002dc.html

Okay.  I also heard the two in the house were not asleep when the shooting started.  I hear the man was behind Taylor when he fired which is partly why she was the one who was shot.

If the evidence points to the police still being outside when they were fired on and then returning fire through the door, that explains the charges and why it is not murder.  If the original article had that information, it would have looked a little different. 

[bedlamite]

https://www.tatumreportexclusive.com/shocking-report-leaked-in-breonna-taylor-death-investigation-shows-how-involved-she-really-was/

[Ben]

Not to start any more arguments on the subject, but I thought it interesting that the LAPD statement here is that the Prius driver tried to "drive around" the protest. While the pickup driver in the LAPD statement (video is in another Twitchy article)  likely was arguing with protestors or otherwise exasperating the situation, what I'm getting out of the LAPD statement is that the Prius driver was an example of someone unaware/accidentally driving into the situation and then reacting out of fear. So while likely making some mistakes that got them into the situation, I'm not sure I can otherwise fault that driver for how he/she got out of the situation.

https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2020/09/25/lapd-detains-prius-driver-after-largely-peaceful-protesters-attempt-to-extract-him-from-his-car-in-hollywood-video/

[MechAg94]

I would also say that you can let off the brake and move forward slowly in low gear and have much less likelihood of actually running someone over.  I think I would do that if people were laying hands on my truck.  If they were trying to break the windows or presenting a real threat, that changes things.  Like any potential self defense incident, we have to be very careful on when to take the next level of response. 

[Ben]

I would also say that you can let off the brake and move forward slowly in low gear and have much less likelihood of actually running someone over.  I think I would do that if people were laying hands on my truck.  If they were trying to break the windows or presenting a real threat, that changes things.  Like any potential self defense incident, we have to be very careful on when to take the next level of response. 

Yeah, my example above was interesting from the two different reactions: The pickup guy looked to be accelerating when he hit the rioter. The Prius guy just kinda eased his way through, even though people were banging on his car, then accelerated when he was clear of the mob. He didn't get "defensive" until the rioter cars chased him down and attacked him. I did notice that while he was detained, I saw no evidence of the occupants of the truck that rammed him being detained.

[MechAg94]

Okay, I saw the video of the prius.  He got through the protest without incident.  They chased him down in other vehicles and tried to block him in while they attacked him.  That is immediately a threat.  There is no "peaceful" in that at all.  At least that one person reaching through the window did enough to justify deadly force.  

[RocketMan]

Okay, I saw the video of the prius.  He got through the protest without incident.  They chased him down in other vehicles and tried to block him in while they attacked him.  That is immediately a threat.  There is no "peaceful" in that at all.  At least that one person reaching through the window did enough to justify deadly force.

In the real world, before the riots, the driver would have been justified in using whatever force was necessary to extract himself from that potentially deadly situation.  In the world as it currently is, with rioters being the newest protected class in some cities, maybe not so much.

[bedlamite]

Is there a pool running yet for when someone starts doing donuts in one of these "protests"

[WLJ]

Despite Williams' frustrations with how the process unraveled, he said that even as an activist himself, it's clear to see that the officers were only doing their jobs that night. He fully agrees that the two officers who were not charged, Sgt. Jonathan Mattingly and Det. Myles Cosgrove, did the right thing that night in Taylor's apartment.

"You can not and should not indict the other two officers who had the warrant signed by a judge, consistent with the law, the constitution, practice, custom and procedure," Williams said. "They were simply doing their job."

Lawyer, former Louisville NAACP president says grand jury correct not to indict 2 officers in Breonna Taylor case
https://www.wdrb.com/news/lawyer-former-louisville-naacp-president-says-grand-jury-correct-not-to-indict-2-officers-in/article_bcb5c4dc-feab-11ea-9813-73f9355c1765.html

[RocketMan]

Two different jet charters left here today less than an hour apart, same charter company, destination Louisville, KY.  I wonder if there is any significance to that vis-à-vis the riots.  They both came in from other cities shortly before their departures to Louisville.

[WLJ]

Two different jet charters left here today less than an hour apart, same charter company, destination Louisville, KY.  I wonder if there is any significance to that vis-à-vis the riots.  They both came in from other cities shortly before their departures to Louisville.

Feds maybe?