Author Topic: ATF Rules Q’s Honey Badger Pistol is a Short Barrel Rifle, Issues Cease and Desi  (Read 3764 times)

Pb

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,887


I wonder if the ATF would consider the lanyard as "collapsable" if it is just hanging off your gun.

I'm a little more than half serious about that last remark.

They once classified shoelaces as machineguns.

https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/01/25/shoestring-machine-gun/

230RN

  • It's like swimming to shore in an ebb tide.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,826
  • Pushing back. Help me out, here...
Well, in any case, my previous comments on the "shoelace affair" might well be appropriate here in terms of how any law writ today can be re-writ or re-interpreted tomorrow:

Oh, the BATF backtracked on that interpretation of a shoelace being a machine gun, didn't they?  I recall seeing a letter to that effect.

I was amused because a strict reading of the actual law actually did make the shoelace a "machinegun," but after warding off a crapload of protests (and laughter), they found a way to regulatorily weasel out of it.  I believe that's the present status of the "shoelace machinegun" thing.

What was so amusing (and frightening) to me was how words could be so manipulated to switch something from "A" to "B," the complete opposite of the original meaning.

Hence my concern about any legal tinkering with any "bump firing" stocks or techniques.  What they define today can be modified tomorrow, either by direct amendment in the legislative process, or as in the shoelace case, by regulatory word games.

Terry


And this is just as true for legal tinkering with educational requirements.

Terry, 230RN

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,184
  • ohhh sparkles!
I had an AR pistol once before braces were a thing. Got tired of explaining to range lawyers that no it wasn't an SBR, yes it was legal, etc. Useless gun too, unless you like noise. I hate to whip out my FUD card but I don't care for them. All the cool tacticool stuff should be legal, but that doesn't mean we have to buy it. The AR pistols, binary triggers, whatever othe tacticool crap someone dreams up appeal most to the gun owners most likely to give the rest of us a bad name. Let's face it, the gun culture is a Walter Mitty buglight.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,620
I had an AR pistol once before braces were a thing. Got tired of explaining to range lawyers that no it wasn't an SBR, yes it was legal, etc. Useless gun too, unless you like noise. I hate to whip out my FUD card but I don't care for them. All the cool tacticool stuff should be legal, but that doesn't mean we have to buy it. The AR pistols, binary triggers, whatever othe tacticool crap someone dreams up appeal most to the gun owners most likely to give the rest of us a bad name. Let's face it, the gun culture is a Walter Mitty buglight.
I have shot AR pistols at the range. I have never had anyone comment other than to ask what it was.  It is a private gun club though. 

That is mainly why I sold my AR pistol in 5.56.  Lots of noise and less terminal performance.  I figured if I go the pistol route again, I would go with 300 blackout or 7.62x39.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,670
A 10.5" AR pistol with a brace, red dot, and quality ammo is in the top 10 home defense/CQB weapons of all time.  There's  a reason pretty  much every force in the world that does room clearing  does it with an intermediate cartridge SBR.  Contollability, speed, effectiveness in people, limited over penetration, it hits all the spots.  M193 is coming out of a 10.5 inch AR at about 2800FPS, and will fragment in people or walls out to a reliable 50-60 yds.

If you like Vodka, a Krink with the triangle brace is pretty solid too.

Yes, the NFA is a stupid law, but It's what we have right now, and the braced pistols are a great way to have an SBR without having an SBR.

FWIW, when I did the safety test to join my new range, of the 15 people there, mine was the only "rifle" AR.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,620
https://rifleshooter.com/2015/12/223-remington-5-56mm-nato-barrel-length-and-velocity-26-inches-to-6-inches/
That M193 is a lot faster out of a 10" barrel than I thought.  I was thinking more along the lines of the other two test rounds.  The heavier 5.56 rounds people like gets pretty slow too.


https://defensivepopulace.net/7-62x39-is-the-ideal-choice-for-short-barrels/
7.62X39


What I had in mind was a CMMG Mutant with the 10" barrel.  Figured that would be easier to find a good muzzle device for.  The other choice I was considering was the Brownells BRN-180 pistol in 300 Blackout, but the upper is $900 so it isn't much cheaper in the end.  I have soft point 5.45X39 also.

“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,846
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
This just popped up. Havn't had time to digest yet
"ATF is thumbing their hose at the president"

BREAKING NEWS: ATF Making AR/AK Pistols AOWs and MORE!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u87NIIvofjU
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
This just popped up. Havn't had time to digest yet
"ATF is thumbing their hose at the president"

BREAKING NEWS: ATF Making AR/AK Pistols AOWs and MORE!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u87NIIvofjU

Well, I hope this is false.

Otherwise, I hope Trump fires everyone in the ATF.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Well, I hope this is false.

Otherwise, I hope Trump fires everyone in the ATF.

It is a tiny agency.  Only 5,000 sinecures.  Transfer the tobacco and alcohol tax mission back to the Treasury, the explosives storage and transport mission to the dept of energy and/or transportation, and then just delete the rest.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,742
  • I'm an Extremist!
Well, I hope this is false.

Otherwise, I hope Trump fires everyone in the ATF.

The 4473 stuff he mentions is new to me as well. Sounds like a de-facto registry?
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
It is a tiny agency.  Only 5,000 sinecures.  Transfer the tobacco and alcohol tax mission back to the Treasury, the explosives storage and transport mission to the dept of energy and/or transportation, and then just delete the rest.

Or delete all of the "sin taxes" and let the DoE have the fun stuff.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,846
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
BREAKING!!! ATF Says 23 SB Tactical Braces Are Not Approved Devices (AKA NFA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IkVtY1PMoU

ATF Issues Conflicting Documents on Legal Pistol Braces
https://www.ammoland.com/2020/11/atf-singles-out-23-sb-tactical-firearms-braces-that-do-not-have-determination-letters/#axzz6emLE3lYC
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,620
What I heard is they specifically said the SBA3 brace was a shouldering device or something and they should stop advertising the ATF has approved the use of braces they don't have specific letters for.  It didn't sound like they had sent a cease and desist letter. 

Either way, the information came from freedom of information act requests, not a new letter from the BATFE.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

bedlamite

  • Hold my beer and watch this!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,769
  • Ack! PLBTTPHBT!
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 07:39:10 PM by bedlamite »
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

Andiron

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,930
Well past time to start deleting alphabet agencies.

QFT.

Evil shouldn't be tolerated under the color of "law"

I LOATH Malum prohibitum laws.

There has to be a list of who works at these agencies and their addresses.  Lists work both ways.
"Leftism destroys everything good." -  Ron

There is no fixing stupid. But, you can line it up in front of a wall and offer it a last smoke.

There is no such thing as a "transgender" person.  Only mental illness that should be discouraged.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,670
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AJNUi39j8lBzXnM&cid=9AE0ADE41E416136&id=9AE0ADE41E416136%2130714&parId=root&o=OneUp

Looks like they're going after all of 'em.

ETA official version:
https://public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2020-27857.pdf

So I have been clear on here (and other forms of social media) that I am about done with complying with the ATF's random whims.

That said, this:
[quoteConsequently, following issuance of this notice, ATF and DOJ plan to implement
a separate process by which current possessors of affected stabilizer-equipped firearms
may choose to register such firearms to be compliant with the NFA. As part of that
process, ATF plans to expedite processing of these applications, and ATF has been
informed that the Attorney General plans retroactively to exempt such firearms from the
collection of NFA taxes if they were made or acquired, prior to the publication of this
notice, in good faith.
][/quote]

And the fact that I actually own several extra braces right now makes me think I should probably go ahead and register every reciever that I own, that could take a stabilizing brace, as an SBR free of charge just in case I slip and put a brace on the wrong lower.

You know, in good faith.

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,570
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/general-notice/sb-criteria-withdrawal-notice-12-23-20pdf/download
Quote
(Billing Code: 4410-FY-P)
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
Docket No. 2020R-10W
Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with “Stabilizing Braces”; Withdrawal of Guidance
AGENCY: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, Department of Justice.
ACTION: Notice; withdrawal.
SUMMARY: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (“ATF”) is announcing the withdrawal of a notice and request for comments entitled “Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with ‘Stabilizing Braces’,” that was published on December 18, 2020.
DATES: The withdrawal is effective [INSERT DATE OF PUBLICATION IN THE FEDERAL REGISTER].
ADDRESSES: This Notice also will be made available on the ATF Web site (www.atf.gov).
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Andrew Lange, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, U.S. Department of Justice, 99 New York Ave. NE, Mail Stop 6N-518, Washington DC 20226; telephone: (202) 648-7070 (this is not a toll-free number). SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:
1

Upon further consultation with the Department of Justice and the Office of the Deputy Attorney General, ATF is withdrawing, pending further Department of Justice review, the notice and request for comments entitled “Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with ‘Stabilizing Braces’,” that was published on December 18, 2020. 85 FR 82516. As explained in the notice, the proposed guidance was not a regulation. The notice informed and invited comment from the industry and public on a proposed guidance prior to issuing a final guidance document.
The withdrawal of the guidance does not change any law, regulation, or other legally binding requirement.
December 23, 2020
Marvin G. Richardson Associate Deputy Director

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,742
  • I'm an Extremist!
Good news - for now anyway. I wish a legalese interpreter wasn't always needed for even the simplest statements they put out.

I wonder how long into next year before the new administration urges them to try again?
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,846
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
According to this it's still up.

Don't Trust ATF! Pistol Brace Letter Still Up!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3E5Fdt-XD8
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes