Poll

Was there widescale fraud, possibly rigged, probably illegitament or I have serious doubts etc ...?

Yes I live in a bannana republic
33 (91.7%)
No, I want to believe
3 (8.3%)

Total Members Voted: 36

Author Topic: The 2020 Presidential election  (Read 4261 times)

Ron

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The 2020 Presidential election
« on: November 18, 2020, 09:44:25 PM »
Personally, I've always thought all of our presidential elections were dirty.

I was surprised Trump won the first time and that made me not trust him fully even though I voted for him!  :lol:

Epstein didn't kill himself and Biden didn't win.

Do you think this election was stolen?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 10:23:45 PM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Andiron

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2020, 10:05:49 PM »
So Biden had a bigger turnout than Obama, and more blacks voted for him than mom jeans jesus?  

Yeah,  Epstein totally killed himself.  :facepalm:

I smell a rat.
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zahc

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2020, 11:02:37 PM »
I think there is widespread fraud. But the fraud is Too Big to Fail, and so it can't be countered. Despite the widespread fraud it would probably have been a moderately close election even with no fraud. Because of the distributed nature of our elections, which the fraud denialists say makes our system stronger, it is in fact very very hard to find and prove election fraud. Add in poor ID requirements and mail in voting, and only people who believe Epstein killed himself could possibly believe there's NOT ubiquitous fraud.
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HankB

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2020, 12:04:06 AM »
Fraud is nothing new. The graveyard vote in Chicago put JFK in the White House. Al Franken won a senate seat in Minnesota after numerous precincts turned in vote totals that exceeded the number of ballots cast, and in 59 voting precincts (I think they were called something other than precincts)  in Philadelphia, Barack Obama got 19,605 votes. Mitt Romney zero. NOBODY AT ALL voted for Mitt, even by mistake.

Not likely.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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Ron

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2020, 08:58:54 AM »
Fraud is nothing new. The graveyard vote in Chicago put JFK in the White House. Al Franken won a senate seat in Minnesota after numerous precincts turned in vote totals that exceeded the number of ballots cast, and in 59 voting precincts (I think they were called something other than precincts)  in Philadelphia, Barack Obama got 19,605 votes. Mitt Romney zero. NOBODY AT ALL voted for Mitt, even by mistake.

Not likely.

Growing up in a family with connections to the Chicago Machine and involved in union politics throughout the 60's I've heard some stories. It's pretty much an organized crime syndicate.

My father didn't follow that path, he went into the military, married the daughter of one of the few Republicans in his south side neighborhood and moved to the suburbs. He started a successful business and finally became a Republican because of Carter.

Elections in Chicago have been rigged since before I was born. No reason to believe it is any different in our big cities all across the nation.

My cynicism regarding elections is well founded.

  
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

HankB

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2020, 10:36:35 AM »
Growing up in a family with connections to the Chicago Machine and involved in union politics throughout the 60's I've heard some stories. It's pretty much an organized crime syndicate . . .
No arguments there. My parents grew up in the Bridgeport neighborhood of Chicago (just a few blocks away from Hizzoner Da Mayor Richard J. Daley's home) and were well acquainted with the Chicago Machine and the rise of Hizzoner. I grew up a little further out on Chicago's southwest side and saw numerous instances of corrupt machine politics at work myself on everything from street repairs to school procurement.

As a voter but not an election official, I never saw overt intimidation at any polling place - polling places were ALWAYS peaceful, probably because there was ALWAYS a cop on duty there. The fraud took place behind the scenes.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

TommyGunn

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2020, 10:37:05 AM »
Why the 2020 election is not like 1960 or 1876:

https://theamericansun.com/2020/11/18/american-fraud-why-the-2020-presidential-election-is-different-than-1876-and-1960/


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Nick1911

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2020, 10:43:55 AM »
Honestly, I don't know.

Were illegitimate votes cast and counted in various localities in the united states?  Almost certainly.
Were local officials aware of or complicit in voter fraud in some places?  Probably.
Do some states have voting requirements that make fraud easier?  Definitely.
Did fraudulent votes change the outcome of the election?  Unknown.  Show me the evidence.

cordex

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2020, 10:46:39 AM »
Honestly, I don't know.

Were illegitimate votes cast and counted in various localities in the united states?  Almost certainly.
Were local officials aware of or complicit in voter fraud in some places?  Probably.
Do some states have voting requirements that make fraud easier?  Definitely.
Did fraudulent votes change the outcome of the election?  Unknown.  Show me the evidence.
This.

MillCreek

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2020, 10:55:08 AM »
Honestly, I don't know.

Were illegitimate votes cast and counted in various localities in the united states?  Almost certainly.
Were local officials aware of or complicit in voter fraud in some places?  Probably.
Do some states have voting requirements that make fraud easier?  Definitely.
Did fraudulent votes change the outcome of the election?  Unknown.  Show me the evidence.

I endorse this concept with two additions: show me the evidence that withstands legal scrutiny and that both parties are complicit in this.
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Ron

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2020, 11:11:33 AM »
I endorse this concept with two additions: show me the evidence that withstands legal scrutiny and that both parties are complicit in this.

Both parties being complicit is probably why it has gone on so long.

No amount of evidence will convince those whose heads are firmly planted in the sand.

Acknowledging that American democratic elections are a farce is a bridge too far, few people are willing to even contemplate the possibility let alone believe it is so.



For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

TommyGunn

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2020, 11:13:04 AM »
Honestly, I don't know.

Were illegitimate votes cast and counted in various localities in the united states?  Almost certainly.
Were local officials aware of or complicit in voter fraud in some places?  Probably.
Do some states have voting requirements that make fraud easier?  Definitely.
Did fraudulent votes change the outcome of the election?  Unknown.  Show me the evidence.

Election fraud is notoriously hard to prove.  Lawyers Lyn Woods and Sydney Powell,  two reputable lawyers,  claim a pallet-full of evidence but no one knows what it is.  Rush Limbaugh commenting on this has said if it is a hoax they've effectively torpedoed their own reputations,  but if it's real, it's COSMIC in import.

I don't have any real evidence,  but I am convinced this is a fraudulent election.  In my heart I truly feel it is being stolen.  But I have no hope we will ever know,  or that the fraud will be uncovered or proved, let alone corrected.

Even if it is existentially proven honest I have one thing I can always complain about:

STUPID AMERICAN VOTERS.


A sitting president with a prickly personality but a solid record of improving the country over his administration,  ousted by a swamp dwelling dementia-beset geezer stuck in his basement,  promising to raise our taxes,  rejoin failed treaties,  spreading taxpayers'  $$$$ across the globe and further eroding second amendment rights.

All hail President Ponysoldier Biden!!!!!


 :facepalm:  Geeesh.


Is there a militia nearby accepting recruits?? ??    
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 11:56:34 AM by TommyGunn »
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Nick1911

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2020, 11:53:13 AM »
Election fraud is notoriously hard to prove.  Lawyers Lyn Woods and Sydney _____?____(can't recall her last name) ,  two reputable lawyers,  claim a pallet-full of evidence but no one knows what it is.  Rush Limbaugh commenting on this has said if it is a hoax they've effectively torpedoed their own reputations,  but if it's real, it's COSMIC in import.

I don't have any real evidence,  but I am convinced this is a fraudulent election.  In my heart I truly feel it is being stolen.  But I have no hope we will ever know,  or that the fraud will be uncovered or proved, let alone corrected.

Even if it is existentially proven honest I have one thing I can always complain about:

STUPID AMERICAN VOTERS.


A sitting president with a prickly personality but a solid record of improving the country over his administration,  ousted by a swamp dwelling dementia-beset geezer stuck in his basement,  promising to raise our taxes,  rejoin failed treaties,  spreading taxpayers'  $$$$ across the globe and further eroding second amendment rights.

All hail President Ponysoldier Biden!!!!!


 :facepalm:  Geeesh.


Is there a militia nearby accepting recruits?? ??    

Two things:
First, the easiest person to fool is yourself.  I do my best not to discern fact from fiction based on how I feel about it, I want information I can evaluate and weigh.  I'm aware that the signal to noise ratio here is so poor that we are unlikely actually be able to get this kind of information.

Second, and I say this not as a moderator, but as a forum member:  Please stop with your giant text formatting thing.  It's very annoying, and does nothing to add to your statement.

TommyGunn

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2020, 12:00:28 PM »
There.  I the fat letters to normal size but centered it.  Does that meet with your approval?  :angel:

I'm painfully aware of how easy it is to fool oneself, based on emotion, trust me.  Which is why I wish we did have objective evidence.  But as I suggested, such is usually hard to find. 

It is bizarre  that down ballot Repubs did so well,  but Trump lost.  Proof of nothing, I know.  But .... patterns....patterns.

It stinks.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Nick1911

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2020, 12:03:55 PM »
There.  I the fat letters to normal size but centered it.  Does that meet with your approval?  :angel:

I'm painfully aware of how easy it is to fool oneself, based on emotion, trust me.  Which is why I wish we did have objective evidence.  But as I suggested, such is usually hard to find. 

It is bizarre  that down ballot Repubs did so well,  but Trump lost.  Proof of nothing, I know.  But .... patterns....patterns.

It stinks.

Thank you!  =)

DittoHead

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2020, 12:04:24 PM »
I think it's unquestionable that there was fraud in this election and almost certainly true that there was more than usual. That being said, labeling it a stolen election requires a bit more than that in my mind.

Much of what I've seen so far amounts to suspicions, red flags, and ignoring the simplest explanations. I've seen enough fake news fraud "proof" on partisan blogs & social media that has already been debunked then repackaged and shared again that I'm not wasting my time diving into all of it. Just like CNN, they can make stuff up and get the facts 100% wrong and there's no repercussions so most of that stuff doesn't amount to a hill of beans. I'll pay attention to what happens in court, under oath, because that's where it counts. Last I saw, Biden's leads in the questionable states were
AZ: 10K, GA: 13K, WI: 20K, NV: 34K, PA: 83K, MI: 147K and I haven't seen anything presented under oath that even comes close to invalidating those leads.

On a side note: I would hope that people who are skeptical of our election integrity are going the extra mile to do something about it, either working as a pollworker or an observer. I know the excuses - that all the cheating is happening elsewhere, it's already rigged, or their presence won't make a difference but being there in person has a much better chance of being effective than posting about it on the internet. Ron talks a lot about ignoring the spin or breaking through the narrative to see reality and the best way to do that is in person, with your own eyes and ears.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

TommyGunn

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2020, 12:19:48 PM »
"Stolen election"  is only my opinion, Dittohead.  I know the numbers. 

I guess I am in an unusually irritable mood this morning.   I think this country has been on a downhill spiral for some time.  Trump's  presidency gave me some hope for a reversal,  which now seems dead as a rock.  Maybe I am taking this more to heart than I should .... and having a basically misanthropic  attitude toward things surely doesn't help.



MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

zahc

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2020, 09:24:06 PM »
Didn't everyone watch this?

Ole Rudy claims to be able to show hundreds of thousands of fraudulent votes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbpkNiDbucA

I'm still not sure how that actually wins the election though.
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TommyGunn

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2020, 10:19:57 PM »
Didn't everyone watch this?

Ole Rudy claims to be able to show hundreds of thousands of fraudulent votes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbpkNiDbucA

I'm still not sure how that actually wins the election though.

I saw a bit of it.  It's an "opening statement,"  not the case as would be presented in court.  A  bold assertion.  Wow.   It IS short on facts (not required in a "opening statement");  we'll have to see if there is anything to it more than sizzling hot air.
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Ron

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2020, 08:16:47 AM »
Didn't everyone watch this?

Ole Rudy claims to be able to show hundreds of thousands of fraudulent votes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbpkNiDbucA

I'm still not sure how that actually wins the election though.

Information/disinformation warfare is what we are seeing now. It has been being waged for a while but mostly by the left. Trump took to the field of battle back in 2016 and has done reasonably well against any enemy that is legion.

Trump is going to need a fact and truth nuclear bomb to prevail.

The case needs to be obviously true, incontrovertible in facts and overwhelming in evidence.

Nothing else will do.

Nothing else will punch through the media production of smoke, mirrors and fog.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Ben

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Ron

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2020, 10:13:13 AM »
...
First, the easiest person to fool is yourself.  I do my best not to discern fact from fiction based on how I feel about it, I want information I can evaluate and weigh.  I'm aware that the signal to noise ratio here is so poor that we are unlikely actually be able to get this kind of information...
From where the average American sits there is plenty of reasons to believe the election was stolen while others see the same events unfold and believe the election was legitimate.  

Are you going to believe Joe Biden? The Democrats? The mainstream media?

Are you going to believe Donald Trump? The Republicans? The alternative media sources?

Are you going to believe our self appointed voices of "reason" here?

Are you going to believe our purveyors of outside of the box theories here?

All cases have narratives, a story, made with circumstantial evidence buttressed by facts.

If your operating assumption is our elections have pretty much been legitimate all along you will construct a story based upon that foundation.

If your operating assumption is that elections can be rigged and have been rigged through fraud and other means throughout history then you will construct a story on that foundation.

Complicating matters is it might be easier to survive "believing" the false narrative, the lie, or not rocking the boat, as that way you can blend in with the crowd and not become a target. Live a comfortable life. It might also be easier than the horror of acknowledging just how corrupt and lost of a culture we're living in currently.

While I believe there was manipulation and probably this and many elections were "stolen". That's just based on my interpretation of the circumstantial evidence, obvious fraud and overall distrust of the system, media et al.

I also believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, ie like I said earlier "The case needs to be obviously true, incontrovertible in facts and overwhelming in evidence."
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 10:33:28 AM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

DittoHead

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2020, 10:32:50 AM »
The reputations of Sidney Powell and Lin Wood are giving these claims a lot of credibility, but they seem to be relying on some less credible sources.
Evidently a researcher, either Mr. Ramsland or someone working for him, was working with a database and confused “MI” for Minnesota with “MI” for Michigan. (The postal code for Minnesota is MN, while Michigan is MI, so one can see how this might happen.) So the affidavit, which addresses “anomalies and red flags” in Michigan, is based largely, and mistakenly, on data from Minnesota.

This is a catastrophic error, the kind of thing that causes a legal position to crash and burn. Trump’s lawyers are fighting an uphill battle, to put it mildly, and confusing Michigan with Minnesota will at best make the hill steeper. Credibility once lost is hard to regain. Possibly Trump’s lawyers have already discovered this appalling error, and have undertaken to correct it. But the Ramsland Affidavit was filed in Georgia just yesterday.
:facepalm:
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

Ron

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Re: The 2020 Presidential election
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2020, 10:41:40 AM »
Funny thing.

Of the three big issues being used to manipulate the future of the country all three have one defining thing in common.

Global climate change, the Covid-19 pandemic and the 2020 election all hinge on whose statistical analysis you believe.


 
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.