Author Topic: The G-Word and the C-Word  (Read 948 times)

roo_ster

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The G-Word and the C-Word
« on: March 23, 2007, 10:30:59 AM »
What are they?  Genocide and Conscription.

We have had some debates recently about the former, but not the latter.  John Derbyshore wrote an article about the two in OCT2006.  Quite interesting, IMO.

There are lots of links to the articles he quotes in the original, link provided below.  Italics in the original, as is the superscript.  Bold face & underlining is mine, as are the parenthetical numerals like the following: (1).
The G-Word and the C-Word
John Derbyshire
New English Review
October, 2006


Everyone knows how absorbing old newspapers can be.  I recently found some crumbly old issues of the New York American (A Paper for People Who Think) from January 1927, being used as insulation in the ceiling of my garage.  Wonderful stuff!especially the ads:  Everybody wants a single dial radio set, etc.

Amid the volatility of a distracted, information-drenched political culture, it can sometimes be just as instructive to look up news and comment from a mere few weeks ago.  I am thinking of the period around mid-August when Israel was fighting Hezbollah.  A lot of people were getting pretty gloomy back then.  Most eloquent in gloom was National Review Online columnist Stanley Kurtz, writing on August 8:

Quote
The West is on a collision course with Iran. There will either be a preemptive war against Irans nuclear program, or an endless series of hot-and-cold war crises following Irans acquisition of a bomb. And an Iranian bomb means further nuclear proliferation to Egypt and Saudi Arabia, as a balancing move by the big Sunni states. With all those Islamic bombs floating around, what are the chances the U.S. will avoid a nuclear terrorist strike over the long-term?(1)

Its not so obvious in Stanleys piece, but lurking below the surface of some of the commentary were some very grim thoughts indeed.  Here was Ralph Peters in the August 20 New York Post:

Quote
Bit by bit, the Western mood is turning from disbelief regarding the terrorist threat to hard-knuckled realism about extremist Islam. 9/11 taught the terrorists little of use and many wrong lessons. It may be hard for some of us to discern what's really happening, but the Islamists are resurrecting a militant, ruthless West.

The florid American master of horror fiction, H. P. Lovecraft, warned his characters, Do not raise up what ye cannot put down. Islamist terrorists are reviving the West's thirst for blood. And this time it won't be slaked in Flanders(2).


The commentator who took these dark thoughts as far as they can be taken was the War Nerd, in a column dated August 25.  I know, I know, the War Nerd can be a little off-putting, especially if youre a Vic Davis Hanson fan, but theres a lot of real insight and military understanding in his articles if you bear with the weird stuff and bad language.  Heres his August 25 conclusion:

Quote
It's hard to say who gains in the long run. Short term, sure, Hezbollah wins big. But in the long run, maybe what's happened is that the day when genocide replaces the farce called CI [i.e. Counter-Insurgency] Warfare just got a lot closer.

I hasten to say that I dont think either Stanley Kurtz or Ralph Peters has the g-word in mind.  They are, though, talking about acts of major violence against the Muslim Middle East (hereinafter MME).  There is a spectrum of such acts, from our present fumbling and controversial efforts at one end, to the g-word at the other.  In the thinking the unthinkable spirit of the late Herman Kahn, Im going to take a stroll along that spectrum to see what the future might have in store for us, with particular reference to whether it might have the g-word in store.

There are some awful thoughts here, as there are bound to be in speculations of this sort.  Those thoughts have been on a lot of peoples minds, though, as the contents of my email bag tell me.  At least, they were on peoples minds five or six weeks ago.  Perhaps it is a measure of the sheer awfulness of these thoughts that after that brief mid-August exposure, they have sunk out of sight again.  I cant help suspecting theyll be back before long.

*    *    *    *    *

The g-word is not to be trifled with.  In the age of Google, there is a case for the prudent commentator to avoid it altogether.  Google just makes it too easy for unscrupulous propagandists to stick things on people.  If I were to mention necrophilia in a column, however incidentally, then for the rest of time a person typing derbyshire necrophilia into a web search engine will get a hit, and the word will go out that ol Derb takes his pleasure by fondling stiffs.  (In fact, since I have just mentioned necrophilia right there, this will now come true!)  There isnt a lot to be done about this, other than retreat into mealy-mouthed prissinessa popular refuge among careerist mainstream journalists, but not my style.

Then there is the fact that the g-word has been seriously devalued in recent decades.  Pretty much any act of unkindness by one group of people towards another is liable to get tagged with the g-word nowadays.  In some quarters, in fact, even acts of kindness are so tagged:   From 1972 to 1994 it was official policy of the National Association of Black Social Workers here in the U.S.A. that the adoption of black children by white families was genocide.  (They have dropped the g-word now, though they still oppose the practice.)

What the War Nerd has in mind in that August 25 column is closer to the true meaning of the g-word:  The deliberate mass killing of a gens, which is to say, a human group related by descent from common ancestors, and conscious of the fact1a clan, a tribe, an rthny, a nation, a race.  He is thinking of what the Lord instructed Moses to do to the Midianites, or what British settlers did to the Tasmanians2.

That anyone should be thinking at all about such a dreadful prospect as the g-word is a reflection of the hopeless despair into which we are slowly sinking in all matters relating to the MME.  Stanley Kurtz again:

Quote
War ought to produce the realization that peaceful compromise is the way out. Instead it produces the opposite. Gestures for peace fare no better. Withdraw or attack, the results are the same: more hatred, more terror, more war. Compromise and settlement have been ruled out from the start by a pervasive ideology, an ideology that is a product of the underlying inability to reconcile Islam with modernity(3).

Ive been getting an earful of this kind of stuff from readers and friends.  One e-friend posed the issue this way:  Could I (he asked) think of any line of development over the next few years that did not include either the loss of U.S. cities to nuclear attack, or a massive assault by us on the MME (the Afghanistan-Iraq Wars counting as a trivial assault), or both?  I had to confess I couldnt.

Some other commentators can.  There is a school of thoughtSteve Sailer  belongs to it, and Steves friend Greg Cochran has a piece in the October 23rd issue of The American Conservative on this themearguing that the threat to the U.S.A. from any or all of the MME nations and their terrorist proxies has been absurdly inflated.  MME nations, these folk argue, are militarily feeble and culturally unappealing.  Economically they depend entirely on us, the customers for their oil. They may be all kinds of threat to each other, but they are none to us.  They havent got a single aircraft carrier between them; we have twelve, etc., etc.  Even supposing they were to acquire nukes, they would no more think of handing a nuke off to some terrorist group than the Great Powers of 1900 would have given anarchists a dreadnought.  Sailer, who has a knack for coining memorable phrases, refers to the Middle East powder thimble.

There are all sorts of thing wrong with that reasoning.  Anarchists were a nuisance to everyone, to the Tsar of All the Russias as much as to Her Britannic Majesty.  Modern jihadist groups have something of that aspect in the eyes of MME rulersthink of the Muslim Brotherhoods tribulations in Egyptbut they enjoy far wider public support than nineteenth-century anarchists ever did, are much more likely to be used as state proxies, and are far better organized.  (By definition, any group is better organized than anarchists...)  They, or their close friends, can even seize states themselves, as the Taliban did.  MME governments and armies are also much leakier and more corrupt even than the Tsarssee, for instance, the endless debate about the degree to which Pakistan controls its own intelligence service, the ISI.

Furthermore, a dreadnought is not a hydrogen bomb.  As puny as the MME states may be militarily, culturally, and economically, nukes are, like the Colt 45 in the Old West, equalizers.  If, after a careful and judicious weighing of all the evidence, we were to conclude that there was no more than a ten percent chance of a terrorist nuke attack on a U.S. city over the next twenty yearsthat, in other words, the Sailer/Cochran hypothesis is probably correct, with probability at the 90 percent levelall the doomngloom of Peters, Kurtz, the War Nerd, and me would still be fully justified(4).

*    *    *    *    *

As Ralph Peters says, there are some old, dark, atavistic impulses being slowly awakened here.  It started with 9/11, of course.  Reading George Packers book about the Iraq War  recently, I took out my own reactions to that war once again and had a good look at themthe exercise George Orwell called thinking your thoughts down to the roots.

From long habit, and I suppose also from personal disposition, I see the world as divided into a zone of civilization and a zone of barbarism.  From time to time the civilized world needs to chastise the barbarians by means of brief punitive expeditions, and I saw the Iraq War in that light.  I saw it, in other words, as an exercise in gunboat diplomacy.  Some petty ruler of a barbarous state makes himself obnoxious to you.  You send an expeditionary force to lob shells on his palace, demolish his arsenal, knock down the walls of his capital, and humiliate his elite troops.(5)  That was the sort of thing I was thinking of, though on a bigger scale, since Saddam Hussein had far more than one palace, or one arsenal.  It took me some time to realize that pretty much no-one else saw the matter like this, but I still think my approach was a valid one.

Anyway, thats water under the bridge.  Reading Packers book reminded me that another, more visceral, part of my reaction to the war was simple tribal revenge.  They did this terrible thing to us.  Lets do something to them.  Them. of course, refers to the MME, without much discrimination.  Sure, it wasnt Iraq that assaulted us on 9/11, but it was them, and Iraq is also them.  Ill be the first to admit that this isnt a very sophisticated response, nor a very attractive one, but I believe it was a widespread feeling among the people of the U.S.A., and a large component of public acceptance of the Iraq/Afghanistan war.

If thats what the loss of a couple of skyscrapers and 3,000 lives will do to us, even to such an amiable and even-tempered fellow as myself, how will we respond to a smuggled nuke taking out one of our cities, with a death toll in six or seven digits?  How will we, the people, respond; how will we want our politicians to respond;  and how will those politicians actually respond?(6)

It is entirely possible we shall find out.  The upcoming Iranian nuclear bomb will mean that two backward, unstable Muslim nations (I mean, counting Pakistan), with lots of friendly connections with transnational jihadi groups, will be nuclear.  As Stanley Kurtz argues, it surely will not stop there.  Ifmake that whenIran gets the Bomb, the big Sunni powers of the MME will scramble to go nuclear themselves.  The probability of a no return address terrorist nuke strike on U.S. soil will increase geometrically with each new MME nuclear power(7).  It is easy to scoff Cochran-style at the possibility of such a thing happening, but it is not obvious to me that it is so utterly impossible we should dismiss it from our minds.

How would we respond to that no return address nuke?  With the g-wordby launching barrages of thermonuclear warheads at... them?  I must say, I cant believe it.  What exactly would be the targeting philosophy?  Would religious sites be out of bounds?  Oil installations?  Population centers?  Would we allow for lethal fallout plumes over friendly nations?  Someone would have to work all this out, and the frictions between our military and civilian decision-makers would be far more momentous than those described in George Packers book.  Ultimately, I believe, they would be intractable.

And if these terrible events ever come to pass, it will, on Stanley Kurtzs logic, likely be at a time when at least a couple of MME nations are mature nuclear powers, with good-quality (even if small-quantity) delivery systems, and perhaps thermo-nuclear3 capability.  That puts us in Herman Kahn territory, trying to compute the pros and cons of single, or limited, or all-out nuclear assaults on an adversary who has some ability to retaliate in kind.

*    *    *    *    *

As best I can judge the mood of the present-day United States, I dont believe that even a couple of flattened cities would drive us all the way down that spectrum of violence to the g-word end.  I think it much more likely that our reaction to a super-9/11 would be a super-Iraq.  That is, we should go to the MME in great force with the determinationnot a vague, ill-thought-out, poorly-planned, under-funded attempt, but a real determinationto utterly transform the region.( 8 )

That would require stupendous levels of manpower.  This would not be war on the cheap, run by an administration  reluctant to impose any real sacrifices on the mass of citizens, or to unduly disturb the nations commercial life.  This would be total war, commandeering great chunks of the economy, scanting constitutional restraints, knocking over nations like bowling pins, fighting with grim ferocity, WW2-style, without over-much concern for enemy civilian casualties.

It would, in fact, require large-scale mobilization of our population.  Now, conscriptionlets call it the c-wordis almost as unthinkable politically as the g-word is morally.  Our practical choice, however, following the loss of a city or two, would be between these two unthinkables, the g-word and the c-word, civilizational annihilation or civilizational makeover.

Could we do it?  Would our people accept the unthinkablemass conscription, total war, a years-long effort to subdue and transform an entire region of the world?  Youd better hope they would(9).  As ugly as the c-word is in our ears, I hope it is less ugly than the g-word.  The choice we may end up with, ten or fifteen years from now, I say again, may be just that:  the c-word, or the g-word.  I dont write this with any pleasure.  My kids just took themselves off to bed with cheery good-nights.  I really dont want to think of them involved in c-words or g-words.  Thats the direction were headed, though, unless someone has a really good idea that so far I have not heard.

------------------------------------------
1.  Even, as Walker Connor points out in his book Ethnonationalism, when the fact is not a true fact.  Ethnicity is a complicated business.

2.  Though some revisionist scholars dispute the familiar account of the Tasmanians fate.

3.  Thermonuclear bombspopularly hydrogen bombsemploy nuclear fusion, and are far more powerful than mere fission bombs (atom bombs).  The most powerful practicable fission bomb has a yield of about half a megaton; a fusion bomb with a 50-megaton yielda hundred times the maximum fission-bomb yield, and four thousand times the yield of the Hiroshima bombhas actually been tested, and there seems to be no theoretical upper limit to the yield of a fusion weapon.  Thermonuclear bomb technology is of course more sophisticated than the fission equivalent.  The U.S.A. took seven years to advance from fission to fusion.  That, however, included doing all the theoretical groundworknow common knowledge, available on the internetand was accomplished with mid-20th-century technology.  The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs had yields of 0.013 and 0.021 megatons, respectively.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

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Re: The G-Word and the C-Word
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2007, 10:32:41 AM »
((1)With all those Islamic bombs floating around, what are the chances the U.S. will avoid a nuclear terrorist strike over the long-term?
I think this is answered in ( 8 ).  The more MME countries get nukes, the risk increases geometrically.  Only one nuke from one bureaucratic jihadi.


(2)Islamist terrorists are reviving the West's thirst for blood. And this time it won't be slaked in Flanders.
The militant muslims are underestimating us the same way folks have underestimated democracies & polities that favor liberty.  Usually slow to anger, but when roused, they are more viciuos and violent in exacting victory/revenge/justice from their enemies than dictatorships run by rational dictators.


(3)...an ideology that is a product of the underlying inability to reconcile Islam with modernity.
Christianity has had 2000 years to figure out how to live in the world.  During the Renaissance, our theologians were able to square the circle & reconcile it with modernity.  Islam has not done so, save in small, unrepresentative pockets.


(4)If, after a careful and judicious weighing of all the evidence, we were to conclude that there was no more than a ten percent chance of a terrorist nuke attack on a U.S. city over the next twenty yearsthat, in other words, the Sailer/Cochran hypothesis is probably correct, with probability at the 90 percent levelall the doomngloom of Peters, Kurtz, the War Nerd, and me would still be fully justified.
Yep.  A common way to quantify risk is to multiply the probability of the risk (P), by the severity if the risk comes to fruition (S).  P * S = Weighted Risk.  I think 10% over 20 years is pretty conservative.  The severity is of the largest magnitude, smaller than only full-scale thermonuclear war between super-powers.

I agree with the author's gloom.


(5)From long habit, and I suppose also from personal disposition, I see the world as divided into a zone of civilization and a zone of barbarism.  From time to time the civilized world needs to chastise the barbarians by means of brief punitive expeditions, and I saw the Iraq War in that light.  I saw it, in other words, as an exercise in gunboat diplomacy.  Some petty ruler of a barbarous state makes himself obnoxious to you.  You send an expeditionary force to lob shells on his palace, demolish his arsenal, knock down the walls of his capital, and humiliate his elite troops.
Pretty much sums up my view of international relations.  You can talk with countries like France, Australia, Finland, etc. and expect a high level of responsiveness.  Even if the talks go south, folks go home & don't start hacking each other with machetes and cannibalizing each others generative organs*.

Other states are essentialy gangster governments and unable to deal with others in a civilized manner.

This sort of policy could be called, "Draining the swamp," "Punishing the barbarians," or such.  It does not propose to create heaven on earth and get mortal enemies to sing Kumbaya around the campfire.  Promises for "a lasting peace, "an end to conflict," and "peace in our time" are doomed to be broken.  Sustaining civilization and pushing back the looters, barbarians, and the like is all we can practically do in the real world.


(6)If thats what the loss of a couple of skyscrapers and 3,000 lives will do to us, even to such an amiable and even-tempered fellow as myself, how will we respond to a smuggled nuke taking out one of our cities, with a death toll in six or seven digits?  How will we, the people, respond; how will we want our politicians to respond;  and how will those politicians actually respond?
This is the question. 

If the West is in its death-spiral, the response will be weak and limp.  Strongly-worded letters, a UN censure, and a couple of Tomahawk missiles will be it.  Maybe another Afganistan or Iraq, at best.

If the West finds the moral strength to defend itself, there will be but two options that could mitigate the threat of militant Islam.


(7)The probability of a no return address terrorist nuke strike on U.S. soil will increase geometrically with each new MME nuclear power.
Yep.  If the Iranians get one, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts the Saudis or another Sunni-majority MME country will follow.


( 8 )As best I can judge the mood of the present-day United States, I dont believe that even a couple of flattened cities would drive us all the way down that spectrum of violence to the g-word end.  I think it much more likely that our reaction to a super-9/11 would be a super-Iraq.  That is, we should go to the MME in great force with the determinationnot a vague, ill-thought-out, poorly-planned, under-funded attempt, but a real determinationto utterly transform the region.
This is the optimistic view, if one is inclined to prefer conscription to genocide.


(9)Could we do it?  Would our people accept the unthinkablemass conscription, total war, a years-long effort to subdue and transform an entire region of the world?  Youd better hope they would.
The aftermath of nuking the MME to hades has been discussed in other threads. 

I am interested in a similar discussion in the conscription case that the author describes.  Likelihood, given a nuke set off in Chicago & LA?  Effects on the USA?  Effects on the muslim population in the USA?  Effect on anti-conscription folks? Effect on the MME?  Would the Euros be with us? Etc...

America Generally
WWII level economic disruption, as butter is traded for guns.

Severe loss of liberty.  Let me count the ways:
1. Conscription
2. Heavily monitored comms
3. Restrictions on travel due to rationing of petroleum
4. Restrictions on travel to MME
5. Social pressure similar to what the Germans suffered under WWI placed on the American citizens who are muslim.  Say "goodbye" to ethnic/religious pride and expression.  If they aren't whistling the Battle Hymn of hte Republic from their backsides, there will be repercussions from other Americans.
6. Growth of gov't, as there was in WWII.  Nothing too small to stick their noses into it.
7. A RealID even more onerous.  Don't leave home without it, 'cause you will be presenting them early & often to John Q. Law.
8. Suppression of protesters.  LEOs will be gentle compared to how regular folks take after them.
9. Databases will be filled.  Open souce data-mining by .gov is only the beginning.

Non-citizen muslims unceremoniously given the boot back to their home.  A hunt for those that go underground.  Student visas from the MME are a thing of the past.

Border fence built (Yay!)...but a generous, though rigourously enforced guest worker program (Boo!) initiated with Mexico.  Unless Mexico is sympathetic to the MME (likely), then just the fence.  Part of the loss of liberty is that everyone will have their "papers."


jfruser in Particular
I do suspect I would be one of the first conscripted, as would any prior-serviceman.   Not in a lottery, but because of my past service and other experience.  Yeah, I am officially disabled, according to Uncle Sam, & not as mobile as I once was.  And getting older.  Overweight, too.  I am sure they would find a waiver.  "Here, 1LT jfruser, is where you will defend in place should the jihadis overrun us.  Until then, keep doing your job like the rest of us staff officers.  Keep that terrain analysis coming." 

I would expect to be in early and not released for the duration.  I would also expect that I would not survive the conflict (see the references to being less mobile & such) despite REMF status.

If the conflict is closer to 20 years than 10 years from now, it is a near-certainty that my son would be conscripted, the probabilty lessening the sooner it occurs.  If women are conscripted, too, a similar calculus is valid for my daughter.

We could expect to lose any house if we had a mortgage on it, due to the salary difference between a junior officer and my current profession/experience can claim on the market.  Selling in the ensuing economic downturn would not save us financially.

-----------------

Truly, not something to look forward to, from my perspective. 
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

AJ Dual

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Re: The G-Word and the C-Word
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2007, 11:57:13 AM »
What comes to mind as an example of dealing with the MME was the OPEC oil embargo and the "energy crisis" of the 1970's...  In essence the MME (through OPEC as a proxy,) said "Hey America! You want oil?", and very slowly, quietly, indirectly, and diplomatically, the U.S. replied "Hey Muslims! You want to eat?", and it ended.

If things actually get that far out of hand with the MME or the U.S. is spurred into WWII-style "rage" and conformity of purpose through a WMD attack on our soil, we don't need nukes, or a ground invasion to have the "G-word" happen in the ME.

Despite how "primitive" they may seem, their population is on average even more urban concentrated than ours is, and is very infrastructure dependant. Nor do they have a surplus of arable land that their populations can disperse into on a refugee basis and revert to a subsistence lifestyle for the duration.

When one looks at our ability to take out enemy military infrastructure with pinpoint accuracy using conventional smart-weapons, the question that goes un-asked is: "What would happen if such ability was turned on a civilian population through the complete destruction of their infrastructure?"

Every bridge destroyed. Every boat sunk. Every road intersection cratered, every power plant destroyed, and all the transmission lines and transformers shorted with carbon fiber bombs and EMP devices, every water pump, treatment plant, irrigation line, and well just gone...

It's not a pretty picture.  What's more, such a "G-word" would provide the West with "plausible denial", as everyone would die through lack of foresight on the part of the aggressor nation, and we can wash our hands of it claiming we never targeted civilians, only installations...
I promise not to duck.

Manedwolf

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Re: The G-Word and the C-Word
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2007, 11:59:09 AM »
Quote
Non-citizen muslims unceremoniously given the boot back to their home.  A hunt for those that go underground.  Student visas from the MME are a thing of the past.

I've referred to that as an "Operation GTFO".

And I can see one other element...just as there were "trusted" Air Raid Wardens and other such sorts in the UK in WWII, if there was more widespread jihadist terrorism here than the authorities could deal with, I think you'd likely see CCW changed to a secured process of vetted citizens, with checkpoints at the entrances to malls and such. Only a cleared person with a special card could carry and pass through.

Who knows...


Matthew Carberry

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Re: The G-Word and the C-Word
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2007, 03:37:36 PM »
Rereading my Hanson the past few days.

One huge argument against conscription, until we actually have a nice total war to fight, is population.  We have 300 million people now, the conscription class would be something like 30 million.

What the hell are we going to do with 30 million young people if we don't have a massive foreign war to ship them off to?

I certainly don't want to pay to feed, house and train them if I'm not getting an immediate return on my money.  That's where the "reinstitute the draft to teach these kids discipline" argument falls on its face; too many kids.
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Art Eatman

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Re: The G-Word and the C-Word
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2007, 06:29:18 PM »
One aspect of the Draft is that of selection from among the pool of eligibles.  That's why it's the "Selective Service System".  Selective.

A philosophic point:  The Founding Fathers didn't want a standing army.  The militia was subject to call-up to defend the country if needed.  "Call-up" = "Draft".

But, with the advent of air transport, the need for a standing army became evident.  We lucked out in 1941/1942.  Look at the numbers of what we had through the late 1930s, in spite of what was seen first hand about what was going on in the rest of the world.

Another philosophic point:  A standing military made up of all-volunteers possibly could have a loyalty more to the military establishment and to the central government, than to the society as a whole.  "Possibly could" is the operative phrase, of course.  One factor at present which offsets this potential is the amount of use of National Guard personnel; these are indeed "citizen soldiers".

So:  If a notable part of the military is made up of draftees, there is far more citizen soldier viewpoint within the system.  Society's voice within an establishment that could to some degree be estranged from society.

Recall the deal about the survey of the willingness to enforce an order to confiscate firearms from citizens.  Remember?  I submit that such agreement (one-third, wasn't it?) would be much less were our military to include draftees.

I was drafted.  Same training as volunteers.  I don't need to hear bushwah about relative competence.  Nobody who's not been in combat is more competent by virtue of volunteering vs. being drafted.

As far as Jihadists/Jihadism, if any of the guesstimated numbers are anywhere near correct, there is a worldwide group of over a million people who have access to various sorts of weaponry and publicly state they hate our guts and that their system should be paramount on a world-wide basis.  They publicly state that their goal is to destroy our economy, our infrastructure and any of our people who oppose them.

That's close enough to "war" to suit my dictionary.  That it is new and different to what we've always thought of as war is irrelevant.

Fight or die.  Simple enough.

Art

The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.