Immigration Bill proposed

[CAnnoneer]

I think it's far more productive to consider them than to just sit back and throw bombs, and say "It'll never work."

I agree but they never will, and the real reason is that they oppose it on philosophical and ideological grounds, not practical ones. Before we can agree how to go in a certain direction, we must first agree that we need to go in that direction in the first place. That is where the disconnect is, not the details. But it is easier to say "It will never work" than "I don't want it even if it can work".

Oh, yeah, let's just save the time and assume I am again called a racist anti-immigrant FBI-plant that wants police state and shooting people on sight. It would be even easier if the ad hominem is included in the signature line - let's save bandwidth. In fact, from now on, let's tacitly assume that all of that is included in the posts. Let's see what and how much is left visible.

[Manedwolf]

I look at it this way. Trying NOTHING won't help, and the problems are going to get worse and worse. Communities have literally been destroyed by the influx of illegals and resultant crime waves. Social services are strained. Identity theft is rampant, and rising every day. "Protestors" have ripped down American flags and run up Mexican flags in a number of places. Even burnt American flags on the street. In American cities. The Azatlan movement and La Raza are threats to national security.

Doing nothing, at this point, is like just standing outside looking at an approaching brush fire, and saying "I'm not sure the hose will work, so I won't try it. I'm not sure digging a firebreak will work, so I won't try it." Just stand there, and the fire will keep growing...and you'll get burned.

If there is bad, they won't stop coming here until here is as bad as there. Period.

[The Rabbi]

I look at it this way. Trying NOTHING won't help, and the problems are going to get worse and worse. Communities have literally been destroyed by the influx of illegals and resultant crime waves. Social services are strained. Identity theft is rampant, and rising every day. "Protestors" have ripped down American flags and run up Mexican flags in a number of places. Even burnt American flags on the street. In American cities. The Azatlan movement and La Raza are threats to national secutiry.

Doing nothing, at this point, is like just standing outside looking at an approaching brush fire, and saying "I'm not sure the hose will work, so I won't try it. I'm not sure digging a firebreak will work, so I won't try it." Just stand there, and the fire will keep growing...and you'll get burned.

If there is bad, they won't stop coming here until here is as bad as there. Period.

I'm glad we live in different countries.  Where I live, which has a huge Hispanic population (and Kurdish, and Laotian, and.....)we don't have any of these problems.
Protesters have ripped down American flags?  Boy, sounds like the end of the world as we know it.

[Manedwolf]

I look at it this way. Trying NOTHING won't help, and the problems are going to get worse and worse. Communities have literally been destroyed by the influx of illegals and resultant crime waves. Social services are strained. Identity theft is rampant, and rising every day. "Protestors" have ripped down American flags and run up Mexican flags in a number of places. Even burnt American flags on the street. In American cities. The Azatlan movement and La Raza are threats to national secutiry.

Doing nothing, at this point, is like just standing outside looking at an approaching brush fire, and saying "I'm not sure the hose will work, so I won't try it. I'm not sure digging a firebreak will work, so I won't try it." Just stand there, and the fire will keep growing...and you'll get burned.

If there is bad, they won't stop coming here until here is as bad as there. Period.

I'm glad we live in different countries.  Where I live, which has a huge Hispanic population (and Kurdish, and Laotian, and.....)we don't have any of these problems.
Protesters have ripped down American flags?  Boy, sounds like the end of the world as we know it.

When a bunch of them pull down the American flag from a United States Post Office and run up the Mexican flag in its place, then dance around chanting like a street scene from Iraq? You bet it's a problem.

[CAnnoneer]

  Where I live, which has a huge Hispanic population (and Kurdish, and Laotian, and.....)we don't have any of these problems.

Once I had an argument about gun freedoms with a co-worker. She is an old-school smoldering liberal and when I told her that guns save lives by the ability of citizens to defend themselves, she said: "What? That's nonsense. Who are you afraid of? We have not had any problems like that."

The reason is, a long time ago she bought into an upscale community where the houses now start at $1,000,000. The police makes sure they patrol the area exceptionally well. Her perspective is understandably (albeit inexcusably) "different" from the one of people actually living in gang lands just a few dozen miles away. But, she is happy to venture vehement opinions and fight tooth and nail for them with messianic certainty.

Enjoy your social bubbles, while they last.

[Manedwolf]

  Where I live, which has a huge Hispanic population (and Kurdish, and Laotian, and.....)we don't have any of these problems.

Once I had an argument about gun freedoms with a co-worker. She is an old-school smoldering liberal and when I told her that guns save lives by the ability of citizens to defend themselves, she said: "What? That's nonsense. Who are you afraid of? We have not had any problems like that."

The reason is, a long time ago she bought into an upscale community where the houses now start at $1,000,000. The police makes sure they patrol the area exceptionally well. Her perspective is understandably (albeit inexcusably) "different" from the one of people actually living in gang lands just a few dozen miles away. But, she is happy to venture vehement opinions and fight tooth and nail for them with messianic certainty.

Enjoy your social bubbles, while they last.

Hazelton, PA's bubble sure popped, and now groups are trying to prevent the mayor from salvaging what he can of what his town used to be by getting harsh on those who employ or rent to illegals.

I'm sure they didn't expect to get hit with the problems caused by illegals, being a small town in Pennsylvania. But they sure have.

[The Rabbi]

I look at it this way. Trying NOTHING won't help, and the problems are going to get worse and worse. Communities have literally been destroyed by the influx of illegals and resultant crime waves. Social services are strained. Identity theft is rampant, and rising every day. "Protestors" have ripped down American flags and run up Mexican flags in a number of places. Even burnt American flags on the street. In American cities. The Azatlan movement and La Raza are threats to national secutiry.

Doing nothing, at this point, is like just standing outside looking at an approaching brush fire, and saying "I'm not sure the hose will work, so I won't try it. I'm not sure digging a firebreak will work, so I won't try it." Just stand there, and the fire will keep growing...and you'll get burned.

If there is bad, they won't stop coming here until here is as bad as there. Period.

I'm glad we live in different countries.  Where I live, which has a huge Hispanic population (and Kurdish, and Laotian, and.....)we don't have any of these problems.
Protesters have ripped down American flags?  Boy, sounds like the end of the world as we know it.

When a bunch of them pull down the American flag from a United States Post Office and run up the Mexican flag in its place, then dance around chanting like a street scene from Iraq? You bet it's a problem.

Really?  What's the problem?  Destruction of gov't property?  Sounds like the end of the world to me.

[De Selby]

I look at it this way. Trying NOTHING won't help, and the problems are going to get worse and worse. Communities have literally been destroyed by the influx of illegals and resultant crime waves. Social services are strained. Identity theft is rampant, and rising every day. "Protestors" have ripped down American flags and run up Mexican flags in a number of places. Even burnt American flags on the street. In American cities. The Azatlan movement and La Raza are threats to national security.

Doing nothing, at this point, is like just standing outside looking at an approaching brush fire, and saying "I'm not sure the hose will work, so I won't try it. I'm not sure digging a firebreak will work, so I won't try it." Just stand there, and the fire will keep growing...and you'll get burned.

If there is bad, they won't stop coming here until here is as bad as there. Period.

Well, if your house is burning down, is coming up with plans like "I know! I'll call Jack Bauer and have him use satellite imagery to direct a secret flame retardant-packed space-launched weapon designed to protect the whitehouse onto my roof!"  really any different from just standing there?

Come up with a realistic proposal and people will support it.  The problem is that there aren't that many realistic proposals out there, just lots of complaining about Mexicans ruining the neighborhood.

[CAnnoneer]

I The problem is that there aren't that many realistic proposals out there, just lots of complaining about Mexicans ruining the neighborhood.

"Repeat it enough times, and it will become the truth" Dr. Goebbels

NOT.

[The Rabbi]

I The problem is that there aren't that many realistic proposals out there, just lots of complaining about Mexicans ruining the neighborhood.

"Repeat it enough times, and it will become the truth" Dr. Goebbels

NOT.

Yeah, you're right.  There are tons of great proposals out there, which is why none of them has been enacted yet. And no one is complaining about Mexicans ruining neighborhoods, least of all here.
NOT.

[Manedwolf]

I The problem is that there aren't that many realistic proposals out there, just lots of complaining about Mexicans ruining the neighborhood.

"Repeat it enough times, and it will become the truth" Dr. Goebbels

NOT.

Yeah, you're right.  There are tons of great proposals out there, which is why none of them has been enacted yet. And no one is complaining about Mexicans ruining neighborhoods, least of all here.
NOT.

Or it could be that anytime someone tries to lay the groundwork for any of those plans, the ACLU sics their attack lawyers on them...

[De Selby]

Manedwolf,

How many legislative attempts to stop illegal immigration has the ACLU defeated?

[Manedwolf]

Manedwolf,

How many legislative attempts to stop illegal immigration has the ACLU defeated?

Most notable in the news right now? Look at Hazelton, PA. The mayor tried to get laws enacted that would punish employers for hiring illegals, and punish landlords for renting to them.

The ACLU has sent so many lawyers that it's likely to bankrupt the town's treasury to fight.

[De Selby]

Manedwolf,

If there were no legal problems with the plan (due process, discrimination claims, etc etc), it would be cheap for the city to use all the savings this plan is generating to fight off the phoney legal claims.

You have to wonder how well the plan works if it's supposedly saving all this money, yet the county can't fight off some volunteer attorneys.

[Manedwolf]

Manedwolf,

If there were no legal problems with the plan (due process, discrimination claims, etc etc), it would be cheap for the city to use all the savings this plan is generating to fight off the phoney legal claims.

You have to wonder how well the plan works if it's supposedly saving all this money, yet the county can't fight off some volunteer attorneys.

The discrimination claims were MADE UP by the ACLU's attack dogs. That's how they roll. They don't like something, they make sh*t up about it and get the accused buried in court documents.

And what's wrong with a town deciding its own laws if the federal government fails to act on a crisis affecting them? The ACLU is trying to get the feds to trample on state's rights and block the measures.

[De Selby]

Manedwolf,

I see what you're saying, but my point is that bogus claims are relatively cheap to defeat.  If Hazleton is saving thousands and thousands because of this new plan, they should easily be able to defend against the bogus legal theories and still have money left over to install "english only" signs all over the place.

Looks like this plan isn't really adding that much to the bottom line after all, is it?

[The Rabbi]

Manedwolf,

If there were no legal problems with the plan (due process, discrimination claims, etc etc), it would be cheap for the city to use all the savings this plan is generating to fight off the phoney legal claims.

You have to wonder how well the plan works if it's supposedly saving all this money, yet the county can't fight off some volunteer attorneys.

The discrimination claims were MADE UP by the ACLU's attack dogs. That's how they roll. They don't like something, they make sh*t up about it and get the accused buried in court documents.

And what's wrong with a town deciding its own laws if the federal government fails to act on a crisis affecting them? The ACLU is trying to get the feds to trample on state's rights and block the measures.

So Hazelton's solution is to make landlords and employers enforcers of government policy.  Certainly will encourage people to go into those jobs.  not.
The policy has clear constitutional issues.  No one is making anything up.  Regardless of how a municipality "feels" (do they even have feelings), they cannot usurp the role of the Federal government, which is arguably what Hazelton is doing.
But people in favor of such policies can lobby for them on the Federal level.  That would by-pass some objections anyway.  But I haven't seen it.

[Manedwolf]

Manedwolf,

If there were no legal problems with the plan (due process, discrimination claims, etc etc), it would be cheap for the city to use all the savings this plan is generating to fight off the phoney legal claims.

You have to wonder how well the plan works if it's supposedly saving all this money, yet the county can't fight off some volunteer attorneys.

The discrimination claims were MADE UP by the ACLU's attack dogs. That's how they roll. They don't like something, they make sh*t up about it and get the accused buried in court documents.

And what's wrong with a town deciding its own laws if the federal government fails to act on a crisis affecting them? The ACLU is trying to get the feds to trample on state's rights and block the measures.

So Hazelton's solution is to make landlords and employers enforcers of government policy.  Certainly will encourage people to go into those jobs.  not.
The policy has clear constitutional issues.  No one is making anything up.  Regardless of how a municipality "feels" (do they even have feelings), they cannot usurp the role of the Federal government, which is arguably what Hazelton is doing.
But people in favor of such policies can lobby for them on the Federal level.  That would by-pass some objections anyway.  But I haven't seen it.

How....statist. 

In the case of Hazelton, based on the crisis shown in the community, that'd be like someone whose house is on fire having to fill out a Request For Fire Department Consideration To Extinguish in triplicate, put it through the proper channels, and wait for committee hearings by people thousands of miles away.

By that time, the house is ash.

[The Rabbi]

How....statist. 

In the case of Hazelton, based on the crisis shown in the community, that'd be like someone whose house is on fire having to fill out a Request For Fire Department Consideration To Extinguish in triplicate, put it through the proper channels, and wait for committee hearings by people thousands of miles away.

By that time, the house is ash.

Why is it the anti side always reverts to ridiculous false analogies?  Hazelton is not a house.  It is not on fire.  They are not being asked to fill anything out, in single or triplicate.
Or are you in favor of suspending the Constitution whenever some mayor or other declares a crisis?

[roo_ster]

I'm glad we live in different countries.  Where I live, which has a huge Hispanic population (and Kurdish, and Laotian, and.....)we don't have any of these problems.
Protesters have ripped down American flags?  Boy, sounds like the end of the world as we know it.

You live in a different state, that is for sure.  Come on down to DFW and drink deep the reality you don't get in the hills.  Maybe when the majority of kids in your public school system are illegals & anchor babies...and you get to foot the bill, you might sing a different tune.

So Hazelton's solution is to make landlords and employers enforcers of government policy.  Certainly will encourage people to go into those jobs.  not.
The policy has clear constitutional issues.  No one is making anything up.  Regardless of how a municipality "feels" (do they even have feelings), they cannot usurp the role of the Federal government, which is arguably what Hazelton is doing.
But people in favor of such policies can lobby for them on the Federal level.  That would by-pass some objections anyway.  But I haven't seen it.

Hazelton's landlords are not enforcers, they are complying with the policy of the lawfully constituted local government.

Lower levels of gov't enforce law written by higher levels of gov't all the time.  For instance, if Hazelton does not have a car-jacking law, the state probably does & I know the federales do.  Meanwhile, HPD nabs car-jackers either way.  Also, any LEO agency is required to report illegal aliens arrested to the federales...which is one reason "sanctuary cities" are controversial: they are breaking the law by not enforcing the federal law.

In TR's world, if Hazelton's Finest picks up terrorists attempting to set off a nuke while intoxicated, they can cite the terrorists for public intox, but not for lighting off a nuke.

[roo_ster]

The Rabbi:

I was wondering.  You say there is no practical solution to be found, yet a multitude of companies are sinking money into integration, R&D, etc., to implement such solutions.  Care to share with us your feasability analysis on, say, a border fence with networked sensor & comms?  Were most of your projected costs in sensors, commo equipment, labor (construction), training, or paperclips?  Since you have THE answer, enlighten us.  I can only claim to have an array of solutions and trade-offs.

Perhaps you can save foreign gov'ts a potful of money by getting on the horn and telling them to stop releasing Requests for Proposals to companies with solutions to their border security problems.

I guess I'll see you at UTEP's border security conference in a booth with a placard reading, "STOP!  You're all wasting money trying to secure the border!"  Sweet.

[Gewehr98]

Is it bubbled communities, or do people live with blinders firmly attached?

It torqued me bad enough when the Sacramento Unified School District tried to force their teachers and part-time teachers (ala', ME) to learn Spanish for our classrooms overrun with Los Illegals. ("F*ck, NO!", was what I told the administrator) It was even worse when one of my injured in-laws with no health insurance was denied medical care in the Irvine area, and told by the admissions nurse that it would be better if he were an illegal. 

In Spacecoast Florida, we watched in horror as one of the illegal immigrants hired by a housing contractor for the military's housing privatization project walked off-site to the high school next door and raped one of the students in the female restroom.  It caused a huge shake-up and more than half of the workforce just plain disappeared, initiating a ripple effect as the contractor first went into cost overruns and missed deadlines, then defaulted and skipped town.  Then the DoD had to step back in and clean up the mess while sourcing another contractor to finish construction on the 550+ military homes. 

I'll loan my INS jacket to anybody who wants to try an experiment.  Just wear it and walk through a suspect neighborhood.  Take particular note of who stays and who scrambles to get out of sight.   

[Manedwolf]

Is it bubbled communities, or do people live with blinders firmly attached?

It torqued me bad enough when the Sacramento Unified School District tried to force their teachers and part-time teachers (ala', ME) to learn Spanish for our classrooms overrun with Los Illegals. ("F*ck, NO!", was what I told the administrator) It was even worse when one of my injured in-laws with no health insurance was denied medical care in the Irvine area, and told by the admissions nurse that it would be better if he were an illegal. 

In Spacecoast Florida, we watched in horror as one of the illegal immigrants hired by a housing contractor for the military's housing privatization project walked off-site to the high school next door and raped one of the students in the female restroom.  It caused a huge shake-up and more than half of the workforce just plain disappeared, initiating a ripple effect as the contractor first went into cost overruns and missed deadlines, then defaulted and skipped town.  Then the DoD had to step back in and clean up the mess while sourcing another contractor to finish construction on the 550+ military homes. 

I'll loan my INS jacket to anybody who wants to try an experiment.  Just wear it and walk through a suspect neighborhood.  Take particular note of who stays and who scrambles to get out of sight.   

I've got a heavy seemingly "slash resistant" black parka with a removeable orange liner and brass buttons that say "UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION SERVICE", made by Aggressor, but it unfortunately does not say "INS" on the back. Just has a badge holder.

I'd try that. 

[De Selby]

I like this INS idea...it's stereotyping at its best.

Wear a jacket that says "ATF" and go to a gunshow! Everyone that looks away or leaves is probably a gun criminal.

Wear a jacket that says "To Catch a Predator" With an NBC turkey logo, and go to places with lots of white males to watch all the predators run!

[Manedwolf]

I like this INS idea...it's stereotyping at its best.

Wear a jacket that says "ATF" and go to a gunshow! Everyone that looks away or leaves is probably a gun criminal.

Nobody is breaking the law at a gunshow. Illegals are breaking the law. What are you saying there? 

That's downright offensive. Sounds like something an anti-gun sort would say.