Author Topic: Judges out of control #1887  (Read 7137 times)

Zundfolge

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Judges out of control #1887
« on: May 26, 2005, 10:53:02 AM »
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Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs
Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.


By Kevin Corcoran
kevin.corcoran@indystar.com
May 26, 2005
 

An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.

Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion.

Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall.

Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss the pending legal dispute.

The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school.

"There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian.

Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January.

"This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox."

The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him.

Bristol is not involved in the appeal and could not be reached for comment. She and Jones have joint custody, and the boy lives with the father on the Northside.

Jones and the ICLU also argue the order is so vague that it could lead to Jones being found in contempt and losing custody of his son.

"When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' " said Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?"

Some people have preconceived notions about Wicca, which has some rituals involving nudity but mostly would be inoffensive to children, said Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion & American Culture at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.

"Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them," Goff said. "Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There's not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region."

Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious studies at Western Kentucky University.

"The federal government has given Wiccans protection under the First Amendment," Snyder said. "Unless this judge has some very specific information about activities involving the child that are harmful, the law is not on his side."

At times, divorcing parents might battle in the courts over the religion of their children. But Kenneth J. Falk, the ICLU's legal director, said he knows of no such order issued before by an Indiana court. He said his research also did not turn up such a case nationally.

"Religion comes up most frequently when there are disputes between the parents. There are lots of cases where a mom and dad are of different faiths, and they're having a tug of war over the kids," Falk said. "This is different: Their dispute is with the judge. When the government is attempting to tell people they're not allowed to engage in non-mainstream activities, that raises concerns."

Indiana law generally allows parents who are awarded physical custody of children to determine their religious training; courts step in only when the children's physical or emotional health would be endangered.

Getting the judge's religious restriction lifted should be a slam-dunk, said David Orentlicher, an Indiana University law professor and Democratic state representative from Indianapolis.

"That's blatantly unconstitutional," Orentlicher said. "Obviously, the judge can order them not to expose the child to drugs or other inappropriate conduct, but it sounds like this order was confusing or could be misconstrued."

The couple married in February 1995, and their divorce was final in February 2004.

As Wiccans, the boy's parents believe in nature-based deities and engage in worship rituals that include guided meditation that Jones says improved his son's concentration. Wicca "is an understanding that we're all connected, and respecting that," said Jones, who is a computer Web designer.

Jones said he does not consider himself a witch or practice anything resembling witchcraft.

During the divorce, he told a court official that Wiccans are not devil worshippers. And he said he does not practice a form of Wicca that involves nudity.

"I celebrate life as a duality. There's a male and female force to everything," Jones said. "I feel the Earth is a living creature. I don't believe in Satan or any creature of infinite evil."

charby

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2005, 11:12:36 AM »
even better perhaps from Waterloo/Cedar Falls Courier

Affair produces child caught between Amish culture and non-Amish father

By DAN HAUGEN, Courier Staff Writer

INDEPENDENCE --- Tiny hands hoisted an Amish straw hat off the floor.

Gripping it like a steering wheel, Rachel Schrock focused her curiosity on the wide-brimmed object, tilting it for perspective. Wearing a blue dress and bonnet, she teetered among the courtroom pews and elders' legs.

Rachel is at the center of an unusual, perhaps unprecedented, custody case unfolding in Buchanan County. The 13-month-old girl was born out of an affair between a young woman from the Amish community and an Oelwein businessman.

A district court judge granted temporary visitation rights to the girl's non-Amish father, Dieter Erdelt. But cultural differences and resistance from the mother, Edna Schrock, caused difficulties. Erdelt now believes he should be Rachel's primary guardian.

"This little girl is going to have --- at best --- a very complicated life," District Court Judge K.D. Briner said before adjourning a hearing Thursday.

The judge will decide in coming weeks which parent should have custody and under what terms the other should see their daughter.

Rachel was born March 17, 2004, at Allen Memorial Hospital. Edna's husband, Samuel, who is also Amish, listed himself as the father on the birth certificate.

"I think my name should be on there because we were married before Rachel was born," Samuel Schrock told the judge.

However, no one in court disputed the girl's biological father is Erdelt, 67, who owns Oelwein Landscaping. Edna Schrock, 30, was an employee at the greenhouse when the relationship formed. Erdelt was married at the time and Schrock was seeing her husband-to-be.

In court, Schrock implied Erdelt forced the relationship.

"He went ahead and did what he wanted," Edna Schrock testified.

She later changed her tone, though, when confronted by Erdelt's attorney with questions about sentiments contained in a letter she sent during the affair.

"I didn't say those words. They were just written on paper. They were not my real feelings," she said. "He had me confused."

In July 2004, four months after Rachel's birth, Edna and Samuel Schrock abandoned their newly built house near Hazleton for a carpeted garage near Lavalle, Wis. The Amish community is about 150 miles northeast of Oelwein.

"I think they made the move with hopes the father would not be involved as he wanted to be," said Gary McClintock of Independence, Schrock's attorney.

The temporary court order issued in January granted Erdelt eight hours with his daughter every other week. The document specifies the father is "free to take the child to a park or anywhere else he so chooses."

Erdelt has twice filed complaints with the court against Schrock, alleging the mother "has continually tried to thwart" the visitations. One filing says the Schrocks refused to allow Erdelt to leave their home with the child.

Erdelt declined to comment on the situation, saying he did not want to jeopardize his case. His initial court filing July 14, 2004, requested "a liberal and reasonable visitation schedule." On Jan. 28, he requested physical placement.

Edna Schrock last week explained to the judge her reluctance to allow Erdelt to see their daughter.

"We want her to grow up in our way of life," she said. "What if he would take her out? She would see television and radio and phones --- we don't want her to want that kind of stuff."

The Rev. William Lindholm, chairman of the National Committee for Amish Relief, a Michigan group that provides legal defense to members of the community, said it would be unhealthy to attempt to raise Rachel in both worlds.

"This girl would continually be bombarded with two cultures, and I don't think that's good," he said. "The father should show some respect for the culture and just bow out."

Legally, though, state case law makes it clear: Erdelt has a right to a relationship with his daughter, civil attorney Ray Walton said. He's not involved in the case, but predicted the judge would protect the father's rights. And if the judge believes charges made in the father's complaints, it could also weigh against the Amish couple.

"The courts don't like parents that deprive other parents of contact with their children," Walton said.

Judges rarely grant sole custody to one parent, Walton said, with the exception of cases with abuse or abandonment.

Erdelt's attorney asked Samuel Schrock on the witness stand whether he'd ever seen the father do anything to harm Rachel. Samuel Schrock explained he once watched Erdelt kiss the girl's cheek until it turned red.

"Clearly we have two people here who both care about this child," Judge Briner said. "I have a lot of thinking and reading to do before I make my decision."
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RevDisk

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2005, 11:39:16 AM »
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An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."
::twitch::


I've heard about Marion County's uh...  'issue' with pagans.   I'm not surprised, but I'm also rather furious.   All of the documents that founded this country gave no religious preference, and we are a Constitutional Republic.   Civil liberties are not subject to 51% vote.  Neither parent has an issue over religion.   Only the judge has an issue with their religion, and apparently the religious beliefs of the kid also.

This, folks, is why I own guns.  I can replace a few bucks out of my wallet or a stolen TV.  Those are not important to me.  (Tho, I still CCW anyways.  Why?  Because I can, and because I do not have to justify it.)   I do worry about religious wackos using their official position to impose their will on my religious beliefs.  Can't happen here?  Ask a Native American.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

jefnvk

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2005, 11:47:58 AM »
In #1, neither parent i sobjecting to the issue?  The judge just up and decided the kid can't be Wiccan?  I could see the order if the mother had custody and proved the kid was being hurt by it, but for the judge to tell both parents that is unacceptable rolleyes

In #2, wouldn't the mother be thrown out of the Amiush community for something like that?  And even if not, the father does have the right to visitation, the way any other father would.  If he wants to take her to the movies and get her a computer, the Amish family will just have to deal with it.  If they can't deal with her being in both cultures, maybe they should bow out and let her live in the father's culture, if they really want what is best.
I still say 'Give Detroit to Canada'

El Tejon

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2005, 02:30:10 PM »
Knew Cale when he was Chief Deputy Prosecuting Attorney.  He was just like this then too.

What a great case for the appellate attorney.  Plenty of space to get outraged there!!!
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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2005, 02:43:31 PM »
In Michigan, the person the woman is married to at the time she gives birth is legally the father of the child and the other guy would have no right to visitation.

garyk/nm

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2005, 03:14:56 PM »
In case 1, neither parent raised objection to Wiccan beliefs, so Hizzoner took it upon himself to force his own value system on all parties? This jerkoff needs a good pimp-slappin followed by forced retirement (minus benefits), or criminal charges for abuse of authority.  Plain and simple. NO ONE has the authority to force their personal beliefs on anyone.  Perhaps Hizzoner thought his appointment to the bench was an elevation to God-like status? He needs a firm reminder that  he is mortal, and subject to mortal rules and laws.  Perhaps a good candidate for a "vote from the rooftops" campaign. (I know, too radical. But if the legal system is allowed to "make examples" , why can't the mortal folk use the same tactics?)

Standing Wolf

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2005, 03:51:20 PM »
That judge needs to be recalled from office. Perhaps he's bright enough to flip hamburgers. Perhaps he's not.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

Ron

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2005, 04:01:02 PM »
We are being ruled by judges acting as legislaters with no accountability to the people.

#1-  What the h*ll is the judge doing deciding the religion of anyone?  Thats crazy,  there has to be more to this story.

#2-  Glad I'm not a judge.  It's sad that this stuff can't be worked out without asking the government to get  involved.

RevDisk

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2005, 07:26:13 PM »
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#1-  What the h*ll is the judge doing deciding the religion of anyone?  Thats crazy,  there has to be more to this story.
You haven't had to deal with the Marion County legal system, I can tell.  "Pagan unfriendly" is the nicest terms.  If yer a pagan or any other minority religion...   Oooo, boy.  Invest in precious metals.  Preferably lead, copper and brass.   I'll see if I can get permission to tell a few stories about Marion.


Quote
In case 1, neither parent raised objection to Wiccan beliefs, so Hizzoner took it upon himself to force his own value system on all parties? This jerkoff needs a good pimp-slappin followed by forced retirement (minus benefits), or criminal charges for abuse of authority.  Plain and simple. NO ONE has the authority to force their personal beliefs on anyone.  Perhaps Hizzoner thought his appointment to the bench was an elevation to God-like status? He needs a firm reminder that  he is mortal, and subject to mortal rules and laws.  Perhaps a good candidate for a "vote from the rooftops" campaign. (I know, too radical. But if the legal system is allowed to "make examples" , why can't the mortal folk use the same tactics?)
Unfortunately, Wicca tends to be a sissy branch of the various pagan sects.   Almost all Wiccan sects believe in "Do what you want, as long as it harms no one."   Some of the more intelligent branches know there's an automatic self-defense clause in there.  If someone tries to harm you, you're SUPPOSED to turn around and give 'em a world of hurt.

Good example.   Some drunken rednecks thought it was amusing to take pot-shots at a group of pagans while they were doing their rituals.  (To put this in terms for Christians, imagine trying to attend mass while some idiot is shooting at your church.)    The pagans got a little annoyed, so they rounded up a LARGE number of pagans.  They hid in the woods and set up some decoys around the fire.   Rednecks fired a round, and a bunch of pagans with a wide variety of firearms (loaded with blanks) started simultaneously laying down an immence amount of fire.  No more problem with rednecks.

Would they have been justified with having a sniper with night vision actually shoot the rednecks in question?  Sure.   But the way it actually played out caused no harm, yet got the job done.  (I make no comments regarding how many rifles were loaded with live ammo and not fired.  Enough said.)

Would the parent in question be justified in "vote from the rooftops"?  I personally think so.  The govt has made it a point to control marriage (via licenses, and requiring a divorse decree).   Now a Judge thinks that entitles him to determine the religious education of a kid when both parents have no disagreement over the religious education of their kid.   However, shooting or lynching the judge would be causing harm when there are other options available.  Not just to the judge, but to the kid and family in question.   Executing a judge, regardless of circumstances, would bring about sharp retaliation by the legal system.  

Best to work within the legal system to have the decree revoked, and work to get the judge removed from the bench through all legal means first.   If the Judicial system refuses to remove the decree and doesn't punish the Judge whatsoever...   Well...   That'll be an interesting day.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

jefnvk

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2005, 07:46:50 PM »
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In Michigan, the person the woman is married to at the time she gives birth is legally the father of the child and the other guy would have no right to visitation.
Really?  That seems stupid to me, but then again, so does a lot of government policy.
I still say 'Give Detroit to Canada'

Fjolnirsson

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2005, 09:09:29 PM »
My personal opinion of this judge?
Somebody oughta stomp a mudhole in his ass, then walk it dry.
He's lucky they're Wiccan.
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Sindawe

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2005, 10:04:33 PM »
Quote
Unfortunately, Wicca tends to be a sissy branch of the various pagan sects.
Agreed, too much "Pink light & fluffy bunnies" for my personality.  But it suits some, and I'm cool with that.  I don't think I've yet to meet a Wiccian who wants to impose their faith on me. Unlike some other religions I can think of.

I have heard/read several variations on the tale RevDisk relates.  My favorite involves the yokels planning a good old fashioned burning cross, and how the Pagans in THAT tale commented that "...If that cross goes up, some yokels gonna get nailed to it..."

The "judge" in the travesty retold by the first poster would do well to take a refresher course in Constitutional Law.  Of course, one could argue that THAT is to problem with our current legal system.  Too much book learning and "high level" analysis of what is a very clear document.  We had a word for that kind of think in the bio trades.  Creeping Elegance.
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SteveS

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2005, 07:50:49 AM »
Quote from: jefnvk
Quote
In Michigan, the person the woman is married to at the time she gives birth is legally the father of the child and the other guy would have no right to visitation.
Really?  That seems stupid to me, but then again, so does a lot of government policy.
This is the law in most of the country.  It goes back to the time before DNA tests and accurate blood tests.  The idea is that it would be better for the child to live in an intact family, even though the "father" is not the biological father.  It might be confusing to the child to live with two parents and have visitation with their other dad.  

It doesn't always make a whole lot of sense, especially when you consider that an affair will trigger a divorce in many cases.  There is a push throughout the country to change these laws and I wouldn't be surprised if they did some time in the next 5 or six years.

IMHO, the courts do a lousy job when it comes to child custody issues.  My advice if you have children is to not get a divorce in the first place.  If you do, try mediating the child custody or come up with some agreement on your own.  Once the (not the) Friend of the Court and the Judge have to decide, you will likely end up with something that doesn't make anyone happy.
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Nightfall

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2005, 08:44:56 AM »
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Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Sooo... can anybody tell me why this "judge" isn't hanging from a tree yet?
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Sylvilagus Aquaticus

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2005, 09:27:29 AM »
If they were Folk it'd likely come to fisticuffs and steel instead of throwing torts and filings  around. Cheesy

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jefnvk

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2005, 09:47:30 AM »
Quote
This is the law in most of the country.  It goes back to the time before DNA tests and accurate blood tests.  The idea is that it would be better for the child to live in an intact family, even though the "father" is not the biological father.  It might be confusing to the child to live with two parents and have visitation with their other dad.
That makes sense.  How, then, does child support work in that situtation?  Does the true father have to pay anything, as he isn;t recognized as the father?
I still say 'Give Detroit to Canada'

Sindawe

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2005, 11:51:20 AM »
Quote
That makes sense.  How, then, does child support work in that situtation?  Does the true father have to pay anything, as he isn;t recognized as the father?
Its not really cut and dried, the law varies from state to state.  Sometimes the sperm donor has no obligations and gets off free and clear, sometimes the he is held responsable There is a case in courts now where a donor for in vitro fertilization is now being sued for child support to the tune $1500/month, despite a verbal agrement for that not to happen, and the conception happening after the end of a relationship.  And there are some cases where a man has been found liable for child support, even though he was not the biological father, nor married to the woman who bore the whelp, nor even KNEW the woman.  He'd just been named as the father at one time, with out his knownledge.  The courts response?  "SOMEBODY has to pay, its in the childs best interest."
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

Strings

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2005, 01:35:29 PM »
ElT: you know the judge, and say he IS this way? Huh... I figured it was something in the report from socialist services, that made Wicca look like something out of the seventh level of hell...

 Remind me to tay out of Marion County...

Standing Wolf

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2005, 04:44:17 PM »
Quote
There is a case in courts now where a donor for in vitro fertilization is now being sued for child support to the tune $1500/month, despite a verbal agrement for that not to happen...
Unfortunately, lots of verbal agreements aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

SteveS

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Judges out of control #1887
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2005, 12:13:06 PM »
Quote from: jefnvk
Quote
This is the law in most of the country.  It goes back to the time before DNA tests and accurate blood tests.  The idea is that it would be better for the child to live in an intact family, even though the "father" is not the biological father.  It might be confusing to the child to live with two parents and have visitation with their other dad.
That makes sense.  How, then, does child support work in that situtation?  Does the true father have to pay anything, as he isn;t recognized as the father?
I am not aware of a "father" having to pay in this situation.
Profanity is the linguistic crutch of the inarticulate mother****er.