Author Topic: More Global Warming Skeptics  (Read 80786 times)

MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #175 on: June 08, 2007, 05:32:30 AM »
Yeah, lots of those scientists endorsed their little piece of report.  Lots of them had little or no input into the final report or endorsed it before the conclusions.  I have read my share of things on how those games are played.  All those organizations have a political element to them.  As long as the UN and its supporters have some control over the grant money, I wouldn't discount political motives at all. 


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Which is why I've tried to limit this conversation to one mechanism/theory at a time.
Even that can be troublesome as it is difficult to only change one variable or effect in real life. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Matthew Carberry

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #176 on: June 08, 2007, 08:55:31 AM »
Nice to see my position supported by someone with some degrees.

carebear - don't really want to get involved in this conversation too much again.

Did some reading about Griffin's comments. Interestingly he has apologised for the way they came across rather then their content as apparently he himself instituted a policy whereby all NASA employees have to make a clear distinction between policy and their own opinion when speaking to the press.

Griffin is an engineer, with an apparently impressive set of engineering credentials. He hasn't published anything about climate change nor has any relevant degrees. So now he has made clear that his comments were his own opinion and not that of NASA you have to decide upon the validity of his opinion in a field he is not personally expert, especially when it is not a widely held opinion amongst experts in that field.

As I stated already, and should be clear from his remarks... 

His position, and mine, is philosophical, about what should and can be logically done with the science, not particularly about the credibility of the science itself.  Thus his degrees and position being non-climateological are not particularly relevent, they merely help establish he isn't some mouth-breather (like me).

I can grant the accuracy of the observations all day long and still quite reasonably disagree with the premises and the conclusions of those making the observations.

Heck, even if they are right to within their degree of certainty (which is not absolute) I can still rationally disagree on what steps should be taken to "fix" the problem.

That's the real issue, who gets to decide what and how much we do about it.  Technocrats?  Supra-national bodies given the ability to transcend national and individual sovereignty?  Newly created extra-Constitutional national agencies?
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richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #177 on: June 08, 2007, 09:05:23 AM »
We used to tar and feather the village idiots and ride them out on a rail - now we seriously consider letting them run the world...
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #178 on: June 08, 2007, 05:43:03 PM »
In hindsight, that was kind of scary wasn't it. 
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wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #179 on: June 09, 2007, 08:55:35 AM »
As long as the UN and its supporters have some control over the grant money, I wouldn't discount political motives at all.

There are plenty of organizations that are looking for proof of this.  Heck, even the BBC is one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6196804.stm

If you can prove that skeptics have their funding cut then I'm sure Exxon would be happy to give you $10,000.  Btw, all government grant records are public property.

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #180 on: June 09, 2007, 09:00:52 AM »
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The geologic record tells a story in which continents removed the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide from an early atmosphere that may have been as hot as 70 degrees Celsius (158 F). At this time the Earth was mostly ocean. It was too hot to have any polar ice caps.

I don't understand. The earth used to be warmer with no EVIL cars. At the Denver airport they have fossils excavated during construction of palm tree leaves in coal layers. Palm trees would die in their first winter now. Did humans cause the warming back then? No, no humans around. Did humans cause the cooling since? No, the last ice age ended with few humanoid ancestors around, certainly not driving cars. So now the cycle is repeating, for temperature change just like it has in the past. Now there are cars (and Communist control freaks). Suddenly it is different now.

I don't understand.  The earth used to be warmer with no EVIL nuclear bombs.  5 billion years ago the earth was once a molten hot rock devoid of any and all life.  Did humans cause the warming back then?  No, no humans around.  Did humans cause the nuclear bomb in the sky to go off and encompass the earth?? No, 5 billion years ago there were no humans, and there were no nuclear bombs.  So now the cycle is repeating.  One day when a terrorist blows up a nuclear bomb in new york the earth will turn into molten rock just like it has in the past.  Now there are nuclear bombs (and tree hugging hippies).  Suddenly it is different now.

 undecided

richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #181 on: June 10, 2007, 06:27:19 PM »
...lets talk RECENT history, wacki,  - shall we?

Question - what ENDED the last Ice Age?  I'm pretty sure it wasn't man driving his Ford Expidition to his job in the coal-fired power plant.....
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mountainclmbr

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #182 on: June 11, 2007, 07:58:58 AM »
A competing theory:

Just say no to Obama, Osama and Chelsea's mama.

Gewehr98

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #183 on: June 11, 2007, 09:30:08 AM »
Sumbitch.  I knew we needed more pirates.  Maybe they'd shanghai the enviro-weenies.   grin
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MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #184 on: June 11, 2007, 10:18:33 AM »
Bush needs to start issuing Letters of Marque against North Korea and Iran.   grin
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MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #185 on: June 11, 2007, 10:22:15 AM »
As long as the UN and its supporters have some control over the grant money, I wouldn't discount political motives at all.

There are plenty of organizations that are looking for proof of this.  Heck, even the BBC is one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6196804.stm

If you can prove that skeptics have their funding cut then I'm sure Exxon would be happy to give you $10,000.  Btw, all government grant records are public property.

They aren't looking too hard are they?  Even NASA is on board since they see it as a vehicle to insure their budget isn't cut. 
Notice I didn't say skeptics get their budgets cut as you said.  All the grants are going to pro-AGW research.  The political tilt isn't always in the research, but in the interpretation.  I think people like UN are trying to use it to push for greater international control/authority. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #186 on: June 11, 2007, 02:38:03 PM »
As long as the UN and its supporters have some control over the grant money, I wouldn't discount political motives at all.

There are plenty of organizations that are looking for proof of this.  Heck, even the BBC is one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6196804.stm

If you can prove that skeptics have their funding cut then I'm sure Exxon would be happy to give you $10,000.  Btw, all government grant records are public property.

They aren't looking too hard are they?

With the tens of millions that Exxon spends lobbying against global warming do you really think they aren't looking?

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Even NASA is on board since they see it as a vehicle to insure their budget isn't cut. 

This assumption would mean that the people at Goddard are the same as the people people at Johnson Space Center when in fact they are from completely different fields.  The head of NASA is appointed by bush and recently gave some anti-consensus remarks.  Completely finished satellites have been boxed up despite offers from France, the Ukraine, and others to launch the satellite for free.

http://www.seedmagazine.com/news/2006/09/free_dscovr.php

There's no reason for that unless you are trying to hide something.  And if you've read any of the headlines within the last 4 years you would know that NASA's research division is being gutted.  Goddard is getting even harsher treatment.  But who cares, space is for soldiers....
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002837.html

If you are going to claim conspiracy it's much easier to point the finger at a few dozen in power than tens of thousands of scientists worldwide.  I'm sorry but the vast majority of the proof is against your thesis.

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Notice I didn't say skeptics get their budgets cut as you said. All the grants are going to pro-AGW research. 

Don't these two statements conflict?  If all the grants are going to the pro-AGW research wouldn't that mean the skeptics are being cut?  Richard Lindzen doesn't have problems getting funding.  Here's a question, do you even know how to look up what funding goes where?  The information is freely available on the internet.  I would think this would be the very first step (of many) in knowing what you are talking about when making claims like this.  Besides, science doesn't even work that way.  You can't decide science.  That's the beauty of it.  And to claim you can bend the laws of nature just because you want to is to exhibit a gross failure in understanding how the laws of physics work.  Either an experiment is reproducible or it isn't.  If data was being falsified someone would find out.

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The political tilt isn't always in the research, but in the interpretation.  I think people like UN are trying to use it to push for greater international control/authority.

There are a lot of people on this list:
http://www.logicalscience.com/consensus/consensus.htm

That aren't a part of the UN.

This conversation is going off the deep end real quick.  Here's a challenge to you sir.  If you are so sure the IPCC report is fraudulent I challenge you to find 10 climate change skeptics that have either published a consensus debunking peer review journal or an editorial in some newspaper.  If the skeptics don't say anything then I can't analyze them.  I will then analyze their statements and will point out some pretty obvious mistakes these people have made.  I assure you the results of this little contest will be rather interesting.  When discussing this topic with people that have a 4 year college education in a science field I would normally pick 4 as the magic number.  That is all I need to make a point.  Only 4 skeptics out of the 40,000 member of the AGU!  And who knows how many worldwide. :-D  But since I doubt everyone here has graduated from college with a science degree I will increase the number to 10.

Good luck and happy hunting.  Remember you only need to find 10 credible skeptics!

MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #187 on: June 11, 2007, 03:47:23 PM »
Who is claiming conspiracy wacki?  Examples have been posted in the last 8 pages.  Bureaucrats always act for self preservation first.  No conspiracy is required.  You keep making really long posts without saying a great deal, twisting arguments to suit your partial responses. 

Why would Exxon be lobbying against GW?  If I were them, I would just be lobbying against half baked solutions that people like you seem to support.  You seem to believe humans are causing global warming, but I haven't seen you putting out solutions of your own.  If you don't have any, what is all the argument about?
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MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #188 on: June 11, 2007, 04:29:37 PM »
Not trying to call you out or anything wacki.  I just don't think you have proved your point as much as you think you have.  IMAO at least.  Cheesy
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wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #189 on: June 11, 2007, 07:03:27 PM »
Why would Exxon be lobbying against GW? 

Huh? burning oil = CO2.  Maybe that has something to do with why the've spent tens of millions lobbying against AGW.

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You seem to believe humans are causing global warming, but I haven't seen you putting out solutions of your own.  If you don't have any, what is all the argument about?

I've posted solutions multiple times.

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7127.msg114700;topicseen#msg114700
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7127.msg115015;topicseen#msg115015
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7127.msg114924;topicseen#msg114924

In fact you even responded to one of them saying:

"wacki, I completely disagree with your view of this issue, however, I have no problem with what you just mentioned as a solution. "

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7127.msg117860;topicseen#msg117860

Yup, this thread has gone totally off the deep end.  Well, it was fun while it lasted.

richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #190 on: June 11, 2007, 07:10:39 PM »
Yes, wacki - run.  That's a lot easier than answering my questions....
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mountainclmbr

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #191 on: June 12, 2007, 05:14:04 AM »
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burning oil = CO2.  Maybe that has something to do with why the've spent tens of millions lobbying against AGW

And, conversely, why would the UN, the European socialist governments, the USA Democrat party and the Green Party everywhere lobby for GW when the Kyoto fix (the socialist redistribution of national wealth) was in the works before the research started?
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #192 on: June 12, 2007, 10:15:08 AM »
An example of wanting the truth to be held back by some GW scientists because it might "cause confusion in the general public" and lead to greater doubt about the "truth of global warming". 

Sure the Mt. K info shouldn't be misused to counter general claims of GW but the arrogance of any scientist or group of scientists trying to decide what should be revealed to the public, "for our own good", is exactly the technocratic BS that has so many of us up in arms.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003744089_kilimanjaro12m.html


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Kilimanjaro not a victim of climate change, UW scientist says
By Sandi Doughton

Seattle Times science reporter

The shrinking snowcap atop Mount Kilimanjaro has become an icon of global warming.

Pictures of the African peak, which has lost 90 percent of its ice cover, were featured in Al Gore's documentary, "An Inconvenient Truth." Greenpeace activists once held a satellite news conference on the summit to sway participants in an international climate conference.

But most scientists who study Kilimanjaro's glaciers have long been uneasy with the volcano's poster-child status.

Yes, ice cover has shrunk by 90 percent, they say.

But no, the buildup of greenhouse gases from cars, power plants and factories is not to blame.

"Kilimanjaro is a grossly overused mis-example of the effects of climate change," said University of Washington climate scientist Philip Mote, co-author of an article in the July/August issue of American Scientist magazine.

Mote is concerned that critics will try to use the article to debunk broader climate-change trends.

He hastens to add that global warming is, indeed, responsible for the fact that nearly every other glacier around the globe is melting away. Kilimanjaro just happens to be the worst possible case study.

Rising nearly four miles from the plains of eastern Tanzania, Kilimanjaro has seen its glaciers decline steadily for well over a century  since long before humans began pumping large amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, Mote points out.

Most of the world's glaciers didn't begin their precipitous declines until the 1970s, when measurable global warming first appeared.

Also, recent data from Kilimanjaro show temperatures on the 19,340-foot volcano never rise above freezing. So melting triggered by a warmer atmosphere can't be the reason the small summit ice sheet is retreating about 3 feet a year, said Georg Kaser, co-author of the new article and a glaciologist at the University of Innsbruck in Austria.

Most glaciers in temperate zones, like those on Mount Rainier, extend to lower elevations where their terminus is warmed to the melting point in summer.

On Kilimanjaro, ice loss seems to be driven by two factors: a lack of snowfall and sublimation, the same process that causes freezer burn by sucking moisture out of leftovers.

Researchers believe Kilimanjaro's glaciers formed about 11,000 years ago, when the region was undergoing a period of wet weather that allowed snow to accumulate. But even before the first Europeans reached the summit in 1889, the weather has been dry in Eastern Africa. There simply hasn't been enough snowfall to keep up with the loss of ice due to sublimation, Kaser explained.

Sublimation, caused by exposure to sunlight and dry air, occurs when ice essentially skips the melting step and evaporates.

Kaser, who climbs Kilimanjaro twice a year to gather data, says the ice topography shows little evidence that melting is anything but a minor force. Jagged spires and cliffs made of ice up to 120 feet tall are not softened around the edges.

Other researchers say melting may become more important if global temperatures continue to climb. Some have reported water gushing from boreholes and glacier margins. It's also possible climate change may play a role in droughts that have starved Kilimanjaro of snow, though that pattern was established before the planet began to warm significantly, Kaser said.

He was the first to point out the disconnect between global-warming rhetoric and scientific data from Kilimanjaro. His 2004 findings became fodder for conservative Web sites and global-warming skeptics  many funded by the oil and coal industries  who argued that all reports about melting glaciers are suspect.

The debate was so rancorous that a co-author of the 2004 study decided not to lend his name to the American Scientist article, which summarizes what researchers have learned about Kilimanjaro's complex ice dynamics.

Even though the mountain presents an interesting scientific puzzle, it's an anomaly compared to what's happening with other glaciers, said Douglas Hardy, a paleoclimatologist at the University of Massachusetts. The new article will be seized on by "global warming naysayers" and could give people the mistaken impression that it calls global warming into question, Hardy predicted.

"What value to society does that serve?" he asked.


Mote, who as Washington's state climatologist travels the Northwest to warn of global warming's regional impacts, said he worried about the article being misused but decided to go ahead.

"Science is a process of getting to the truth," he said.


Even when the truth has unexpected twists like this: Models predict global warming will increase rainfall in Eastern Africa, which could actually be the thing that saves the "shining mountain's" snowy crown.

Sandi Doughton: 206-464-2491 or sdoughton@seattletimes.com

Copyright © 2007 The Seattle Times Company

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wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #193 on: June 12, 2007, 06:03:42 PM »
mountainclmbr, I'm not sure what you are asking.

Carebear, There are nutbags on both sides.  But in all honesty that article shows that science works.  Sometimes the truth is delayed but the information eventually gets out.  Sometimes a lab can fake data but in the end they are always exposed as soon as someone decides to check their facts.

  The best thing about satellites is that the data is open to the public and Exxon could hire people to analyze the material if they wanted to.  There's no reason to kill a satellite that could end this debate once an for all.   Well not unless you already know what the answer is and you just don't like it.

richyoung,

I could answer your questions but I just don't think you are worth the time it takes to respond.  That is why I answer everyone else's questions and I'm ignoring yours.  Wind has changed permanently in the climate change debate.  The deniers are already being cut out of the negotiation tables.  Their exile will only grow in breadth and intensity.  The same will likely happen with political lobby groups.  One of which could be a pro-RKBA group.  This hatred for the scientific community and any fact that disagrees with your ideology that I see so often in internet boards is a double edged sword.

It's like the murder-gun link.  It's entirely likely that murder rates are *slightly* higher with guns.  Does that change my view on RKBA?  No.  Does that mean I have to lie about the facts? No.

mountainclmbr

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #194 on: June 12, 2007, 06:44:49 PM »
Wacki, Just think UN Oil for Food. Then substitute Money for Credits within the same system. My question is "why believe these same players?" It is clear they want to have a solution that involves looting the productive class for the benefit of the nonproductive class, and with a large percentage for the arbitrators. Why is it not a good idea to question the problem that had research funded after the solution was proposed? Not exactly the scientific method. When the socialists are funding the research, you will get what you pay for.
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wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #195 on: June 12, 2007, 11:51:17 PM »
Wacki, Just think UN Oil for Food. Then substitute Money for Credits within the same system. My question is "why believe these same players?" It is clear they want to have a solution that involves looting the productive class for the benefit of the nonproductive class, and with a large percentage for the arbitrators. Why is it not a good idea to question the problem that had research funded after the solution was proposed? Not exactly the scientific method. When the socialists are funding the research, you will get what you pay for.

Svente Arrhenius calculated global warming potential due to CO2 in 1896 and its put effect between 4-5.7 degrees Celsius.

James Hansen release his model which correctly predicted have a dozen events in 1988.

Keeling was worried about CO2 all the way back in 1954.

The AGW argument predates the UN by half a century.

The UN is a sham but the IPCC is a completely different entity.  Your argument relies on the assumption that every scientist that endorsed the report is an American hating communist.  It also relies on the assumption that every major scientific society in America is ran by American hating communists.

Basically over a 100,000 scientists would have to be apart of some scam.  Do I really need to explain how unlikely this is?  Common sense should tell you that a consensus this big and this strong might have some actual teeth to it.  Besides it really doesn't take much work to realize that the fraudulent work almost always comes from the skeptic side.  When someone like the industry funded skeptic Pat Michaels is forging graphs to "debunk" Hansen then alarm bells should be ringing in your head.

BTW, I really don't have 'blind faith' in the consensus.  After reading thousands of scientific papers on the topic I shouldn't have to.

MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #196 on: June 13, 2007, 04:58:57 AM »
Why would Exxon be lobbying against GW? 

Huh? burning oil = CO2.  Maybe that has something to do with why the've spent tens of millions lobbying against AGW.

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You seem to believe humans are causing global warming, but I haven't seen you putting out solutions of your own.  If you don't have any, what is all the argument about?

I've posted solutions multiple times.

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7127.msg114700;topicseen#msg114700
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7127.msg115015;topicseen#msg115015
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7127.msg114924;topicseen#msg114924

In fact you even responded to one of them saying:

"wacki, I completely disagree with your view of this issue, however, I have no problem with what you just mentioned as a solution. "

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7127.msg117860;topicseen#msg117860

Yup, this thread has gone totally off the deep end.  Well, it was fun while it lasted.
Come wacki, you expect me to remember a post made 2 weeks ago?  Cheesy

In my defense, the "solution" was do nothing now and continue with research and development.  Not really a solution regardless of my own word choice.  I still don't have an issue with doing that.

I looked at the posts you mentioned.  Alternative energy research is the only solution I saw that you mentioned.  That stuff is already on going.  Anything else? 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #197 on: June 13, 2007, 05:02:47 AM »
Quote
Huh? burning oil = CO2.  Maybe that has something to do with why the've spent tens of millions lobbying against AGW.
Considering some of the crackpot schemes that have been proposed, If I were Exxon, I would be doing some heavy lobbying as well.  I wouldn't care about research itself, just the potential for stupid laws. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #198 on: June 13, 2007, 05:54:09 AM »
Svente Arrhenius calculated global warming potential due to CO2 in 1896 and its put effect between 4-5.7 degrees Celsius.

How about we hear from a moderhn scientist - like Marcel Leroux, professor of climatology at the University J. Moulin and director of the Laboratoire de Climatologie, Risques, Environnement.

"In his treatment of the relative contributions of various greenhouse gases, including the most important one, water vapor, which represents 95 percent of the total greenhouse effect, he calculates that human activities account for only 0.28 percent, which is less than exciting. Consequently, he argues that we must shake off our unfounded obsession with the anthropogenic greenhouse effect, and reconsider the problem of climate change in a different way, re-establishing the proper hierarchy of phenomena and giving the "water effect" the major climatic importance it deserves."

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James Hansen release his model which correctly predicted have a dozen events in 1988.

Evin a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while - how does his model, when "tuned" to predict events in 1988, do now?  How many events has it "predicted" in 2006?   2007?   Must not be many, or you would be crowing about them...

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Keeling was worried about CO2 all the way back in 1954.

Yes - climatology blows hot and cold, doesn't it?  Pardon the pun....

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The AGW argument predates the UN by half a century.


If by that you mean they couldn't predict the climate back then either, as evidenced by the alternating "ice age"/"harrowing heat up" theories, you are correct.

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The UN is a sham but the IPCC is a completely different entity.
 

Oh, yes, lets do talk about the IPCC, shall we?  From Frederick Seitz, president emeritus of Rockefeller University and chairman of the George C. Marshall Institute (Washington). In his letter to the Wall Street Journal, on June 12, 1996, he wrote:

"[But] this [IPCC] report is not what it appears to be -- it is not the version that was approved by the contributing scientists listed on the title page. In my more than 60 years as a member of the American scientific community, including service as president of both the National Academy of Sciences and the American Physical Society, I have never witnessed a more disturbing corruption of the peer-review process than the events that led to this IPCC report.

A comparison between the report approved by the contributing scientists and the published version reveals that key changes were made after the scientists had met and accepted what they thought was the final peer-reviewed version. ... Few of these changes were merely cosmetic; nearly all worked to remove hints of the skepticism with which many scientists regard claims that human activities are having a major impact on climate in general and on global warming in particular.

The following passages are examples of those included in the approved report but deleted from the supposedly peer-reviewed published version:

- 'None of the studies cited above has shown clear evidence that we can attribute the observed [climate] changes to the specific cause of increases in greenhouse gases.'

- 'No study to date has positively attributed all or part [of the climate change observed to date] to anthropogenic [man-made] causes.'

- 'Any claims of positive detection of significant climate change are likely to remain controversial until uncertainties in the total natural variability of the climate system are reduced."
Instead, the following text was inserted: "The balance of evidence suggests a discernable human influence on global climate." In spite of the way this view was imposed, and all the subsequent controversy, the idea was never retracted.

The third report brought a second scientific coup. It increased the value of the predicted rise in temperature, and clinched the argument with the hockey stick diagram -- more recently exposed as a hoax -- stating that temperatures in recent times are higher than they have been for a thousand years. Moreover, the spectrum of the consequences of the greenhouse effect was considerably broadened, to the extent that it included every meteorological phenomenon. "


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Your argument relies on the assumption that every scientist that endorsed the report...

Which report?  The one the scientists wrote, or the edited version the politicians released over their signatures without telling them?

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... is an American hating communist.  It also relies on the assumption that every major scientific society in America is ran by American hating communists.

Since you brouth it up - from Leroux again...

"The Fourth Report of the IPCC might just as well decree the suppression of all climatology textbooks, and replace them in our schools with press communiqués. ... Day after day, the same mantra -- that 'the Earth is warming up' -- is churned out in all its forms. As 'the ice melts' and 'sea level rises' the Apocalypse looms ever nearer! Without realizing it, or perhaps without wishing to, the average citizen in bamboozled, lobotomized' lulled into mindless acceptance. ... Non-believers in the greenhouse scenario are in the position of those long ago who doubted the existence of God ... fortunately for them, the Inquisition is no longer with us!"

Leroux also draws attention to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, of which article 6 on education and training, obliges participants to sensitize the public, at a national level, to climate change and its effects. States signatories to the Convention are thus bound to adopt the concept of "global warming" at the highest institutional level, to impose it as an incontrovertible dogma (i.e., a sort of state religion impervious to debate). In France, Leroux adds, the "servants" of the state -- and in their name, both audio-visual media and institutes -- feel bound to propagate the official dogma, just like a certain press agency in the East in its heyday; echoing the triumph of Lysenkoism, they shape public opinion in favor of the official theses.


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Besides it really doesn't take much work to realize that the fraudulent work almost always comes from the skeptic AGW side.  When someone like the industry funded skeptic Pat Michaels IPCC darling and data hoaxer Dr. Micheal Mann is forging graphs to "debunk" Hansen remove from the historical record the Midieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age then alarm bells should be ringing in your head.

I fixed it for you....

BTW, how do you explain the Holocene Climate Optimum that occured before 500 B.C., when temperatures where 4 degrees higher than they are NOW, well before any signifigant anthropogenic greenhouse gas generation?  Or the Midieval Warm Period?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #199 on: June 13, 2007, 06:11:53 AM »
Oh, Iain - I've not forgotten you....

Here's the thing that strikes me as utterly bizarre. Almost any other subject I can think of, if someone is proclaiming their superior knowledge when it runs against that which is received and understood (i.e established authorities), without any basis or relevant expertise they are cranks. Yet on climate change, every Tom, Dick and Harry is an expert as long as he has one or two 'experts' he can cite.

... I'd posit that if anyone on this board were to actually really understand this literature, fully and completely, to be a climatological expert - they'd have 'won' this debate already. Whether you are right or wrong, if you are actually a full-on expert it's easy to blind with science. Start throwing terms like albedo out there and it's not long before most have to use a dictionary to even know what is being said...

 People have very rigid opinions about subjects about which they cannot actually contribute to discussion except to mock (I'm not just referring to this thread).
None of that really works. If you look back through this discussion I've tried to take that position - I want to know just who you are to hold the opinions that you do.

Some of the people that are cited here have a certain authority and that is not to be taken lightly. But to continue to insist that they are the only valid sources and to ignore and dismiss all others when you yourself have no expertise with which to judge the validity of what they are saying is to risk being a crank.


Hmmm - strikes me as elitist snobbery - wonder what the National Academy of Science has to say about such?  From "On Being a Scientist: Responsible Conduct in Research" , published in 1995:

"The fallibility of methods is a valuable reminder of the importance of skepticism in science. Scientific knowledge and scientific methods, whether old or new, must be continually scrutinized for possible errors. Such skepticism can conflict with other important features of science, such as the need for creativity and for conviction in arguing a given position. But organized and searching skepticism as well as an openness to new ideas are essential to guard against the intrusion of dogma or collective bias into scientific results."

"In fulfilling these responsibilities scientists must take the time to relate scientific knowledge to society in such a way that members of the public can make an informed decision about the relevance of research. Sometimes researchers reserve this right to themselves, considering non-experts unqualified to make such judgments. But science offers only one window on human experience. While upholding the honor of their profession, scientists must seek to avoid putting scientific knowledge on a pedestal above knowledge obtained through other means."

This is a direct criticism of `scientism', a belief held by many scientists that knowledge not acquired by professional scientists is knowledge not worth having. Scientism is an affront to free people everywhere as it denies the right of the public to judge the work of science, even where this work is funded from taxpayer's money. It is a formula that holds scientists above criticism, and unaccountable to anyone but their own peers. It is an anti-democratic view of the world and is clearly opposed by the National Academy.

Yet in the climate sciences, we have numerous examples of public criticism and concern being dismissed with gratuitous statistics and spurious appeals to academic authority.

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...