Author Topic: Malarkey & I'manutjob  (Read 3452 times)

Paddy

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Malarkey & I'manutjob
« on: August 09, 2007, 02:39:38 PM »

Dos amigos. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki (our man in Iraq) holding hands and smiling with Iranian President Mahmood Ahmadinejad.  We've been had.  Again. Somebody wake up Mr. Bush

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070022027&ch=8/9/2007%2011:12:00%20AM

Len Budney

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2007, 03:45:02 PM »
Ahmedinejad is no great shakes--but he's a universe better than Ruhollah Khomeini. I'd class him roughly on par with Mohammed Mossedagh.

The bummer is that the US ousted Mossedagh and propped up the Shah for twenty years, which resulted directly in twenty years of the Ayatollah Khomeini. So I think we should give credit where credit is due: if we'd left them the hell alone forty years ago, Iran would probably be Egypt by now.

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K Frame

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2007, 04:15:24 PM »
Ever see one of our president's with an arm around the shoulders of a foreign leader whose nation isn't quite our friend?

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Len Budney

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2007, 04:19:09 PM »
Ever see one of our president's with an arm around the shoulders of a foreign leader whose nation isn't quite our friend?

No. The US president sends lackeys to cozy up to bad guys, so he can keep his lily-white hands clean.



Sometimes he does it himself though:



Then there's poppa Bush and Prince Bandar. The Saudis, sponsors of wahhabism and host nation to most of the 9/11 hijackers, are of course our friends:



Then of course there's this guy:



They were particularly good friends:



And don't forget the future president Clinton, who had a similar crush on Suha Arafat:

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2007, 05:01:16 PM »
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The Saudis, sponsors of wahhabism and host nation to most of the 9/11 hijackers

Host nation?  What does that mean?  Wasn't OBL forbidden to return to Saudi Arabia some time before 2001?  If so, they are bad hosts.  And how does Bandar compare to Ahmadinejad? 
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K Frame

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2007, 05:10:59 PM »
Wow, you're right, Len, how stupid of me...










And so forth and so on...
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Len Budney

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2007, 09:31:21 PM »
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The Saudis, sponsors of wahhabism and host nation to most of the 9/11 hijackers

Host nation?  What does that mean?  Wasn't OBL forbidden to return to Saudi Arabia some time before 2001?  If so, they are bad hosts.  And how does Bandar compare to Ahmadinejad? 
Blink blink. Arafat who? Castro what? You need new glasses.

Almost all of the 9/11 highjackers were Saudi. Al Qaeda consisted almost entirely of Saudis. Saudis are funders of terrorism, and the royal family, including Prince Bandar, are the principal culprits. But if you insist on ignoring Bandar, that doesn't change a thing.

For your further amusement:

Jimmy Carter and Shah Pahlevi:



Carter and Arafat:



Carter and Castro:



Nixon and Mao:



Ford and Mao:



Clinton and Aristide:



etc, etc,
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Len Budney

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2007, 09:32:17 PM »
Wow, you're right, Len, how stupid of me... And so forth and so on...

Exactly. Seeing two people side-by-side in a photo means very little. You agree with my point now.

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Paddy

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2007, 06:28:42 AM »
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Ever see one of our president's with an arm around the shoulders of a foreign leader whose nation isn't quite our friend?

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Exactly. Seeing two people side-by-side in a photo means very little. You agree with my point now.

Au contraire.  This is not just a 'photo op'.  Maliki went to our enemy, who is actively killing Americans in Iraq, asking for 'security help'.   What does that mean?  He certainly knows Iran is behind much of the anti-American, anti-Sunni bloodshed in Iraq.  Iran's answer was that only a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq would bring peace and stability to the area.  Sounds like a mob protection/extortion scheme, doesn't it?

You can bet Shi'ite Iraq has a lot more in common with Shi'ite Iran than with western 'democratization'.  Maliki's cuddling up with Iran is really an 'in your face' indication of where this is going.


Len Budney

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2007, 06:47:32 AM »
Au contraire.  This is not just a 'photo op'.  Maliki went to our enemy, who is actively killing Americans in Iraq...

If you believe the bogus claims of the current administration--which is especially funny when we've already fallen for virtually identical claims that Iraq supported Al Qaeda. Fool me twi--ya can't get fooled agin'.

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You can bet Shi'ite Iraq has a lot more in common with Shi'ite Iran than with western 'democratization'.

Yawn. Iran is going to invade America, nuke one of our cities, yadda yadda. That there's no evidence of any of this, well... so what? The beauty of paranoia is that nobody needs evidence before going to war.

I repeat. Ahmedinejad is hardly a prince, but he's worlds better than most brutal dictators that the US props up. He's better than Khomeini by a long shot, and Khomeini was our fault. We overthrew democratically-elected Mossadegh in 1953 because he threatened BP interests in Iran, and propped up Shah Pahlevi until 1979. Although he was an American puppet, and in that sense was probably what you'd call acceptable, he was considerably worse than Ahmedinejad in his treatment of his subjects, and was comparable to the Ayatollah that followed him. It was Iranian outrage at Pahlevi's abuses that made them ripe for cultivation by religious extremists who promised to end his corruption--which they did, though they replaced it with repression of a fundamentalist religious nature.

We created the Ayatollah. Ahmedinejad is a huge improvement. Iran is moving in the right direction. And still "hawks" in the US want to bomb the living crap out of his country when it isn't doing anything to us. As if that won't make things worse in Iran instead of better. We effed up their country for the last fifty-some years, and we still want to tinker with their lives like they were sea monkeys on our bedroom dresser. Sigh.

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Paddy

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2007, 07:07:18 AM »
Ya know, Len, you really need to come up with something more than anecdotal 'evidence' to support your assertions.  I tried reading you link, but right off the bat it twists words.  For example:
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    ' In the last three months of 2006, attacks using the weapons accounted for a significant portion of Americans killed and wounded in Iraq, though less than a quarter of the total, military officials say.'

Your guy answers with:
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This claim is one hundred percent wrong. Because 25 percent of US troops were not killed fighting Shiites in those three months.
He can't figure out the original statement means less than a quarter of the total killed?

As far as your assertion that "we've fallen for.......claims that Iraq supported Al-Queda..."  that was the intelligence at the time.  It later proved to be faulty.  Now the malcontents (that lost two presidential elections in a row) come along and make phony claims that we've been taken in by some great conspiracy.....Really.  It's getting tiresome. 

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Yawn. Iran is going to invade America, nuke one of our cities, yadda yadda. That there's no evidence of any of this, well... so what? The beauty of paranoia is that nobody needs evidence before going to war.
I have no idea where this comes from; nobody here has said that.

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We created the Ayatollah. Ahmedinejad is a huge improvement.
Uh-huh. A state leader advocating/predicting the complete genocide of another people and the total destruction of their country is a 'huge improvement'Huh???

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Iran is moving in the right direction.
Threatening the world with nuclear weapons is moving in the 'right direction'Huh??

You make no sense at all.

Len Budney

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2007, 07:20:46 AM »
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This claim is one hundred percent wrong. Because 25 percent of US troops were not killed fighting Shiites in those three months.

He can't figure out the original statement means less than a quarter of the totalkilled?

You misread. He meant 25% of the troops killed, were not killed by shiites. Most insurgents are Sunni. Shiites don't need to conduct an insurgency, since they control the government.

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As far as your assertion that "we've fallen for.......claims that Iraq supported Al-Queda..."  that was the intelligence at the time.

On the contrary. Everyone in the world knew better. Saddam was a secular socialist; Osama was an extreme Islamist. You can argue that some intelligence at the time supported the claim that he had WMDs, but there was no intelligence at the time supporting the claim that Saddam was connected in any way with Al Qaeda. The only such piece of "evidence" was the claim that a meeting occurred in Prague with Iraqi intelligence officers, and that claim was debunked before the invasion of Iraq.

The Iraqi driving your cab could've told you that Islamists and Hussein were enemies. My Iraqi veterinarian did know it, long before the Iraq invasion, though I pooh-poohed him at the time. The fact is that anyone who knew diddly squat about Muslims knew that.

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Yawn. Iran is going to invade America, nuke one of our cities, yadda yadda. That there's no evidence of any of this, well... so what? The beauty of paranoia is that nobody needs evidence before going to war.

I have no idea where this comes from; nobody here has said that.

Then leave them alone. You've admitted they're no threat to you.

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We created the Ayatollah. Ahmedinejad is a huge improvement.

Uh-huh. A state leader advocating/predicting the complete genocide of another people and the total destruction of their country is a 'huge improvement'Huh???

Over the Ayatollah? Um, yes. If you want an Iranian president who loves Israel, you're going to have a hard time (1) finding him, and (2) keeping him alive. Iranians don't like Israel. Unless you're willing to rule Iran directly, or maybe exterminate them, they're going to have leaders who don't like Israel. Acting all shocked about it just makes one seem naive.

However, Ahmedinejad did not advocate genocide. He has stated his opinion that Israel is on the "wrong side of history," and won't last as a nation in the long run, but he has said nothing whatsoever about exterminating Jews or about actually doing something to end Israel. If Iran attacked Israel, I would support Israel responding decisively: I am a nearly-rabid supporter of Israel--just not rabid enough to start nuking countries that haven't even done anything.

We said the same about the Soviet Union, and they said the same about us. Everyone says he's on the right side of history, and his adversaries will pass from the scene. It's demagoguery, and it's pretty lowbrow stuff, but it isn't grounds for an invasion.

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Iran is moving in the right direction.

Threatening the world with nuclear weapons is moving in the 'right direction'Huh??

Iran has not threatened anyone with nuclear weapons. They have in fact repeatedly denied that they even want nuclear weapons--isn't it bloody hard to "threaten" someone with something you claim you don't have and aren't developing? ("I don't have a gun, but gimme yer dough or I'll shoot you.") They state that they want energy reactors, and under the non-proliferation treaty, they're entitled to that. They've even expressed willingness to accept international oversight of the whole thing.

It's possible that they're lying, of course. But your suggestion that they're preparing to get nukes with which to threaten the world (and, presumably, the US) is not only unsubstantiated, but it's an ironic repetition of the same completely false claims that we believed about Iraq a mere three years ago. Fool me twi--ya can't get fooled ag'in.

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wmenorr67

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2007, 07:52:35 AM »
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Most insurgents are Sunni. Shiites don't need to conduct an insurgency, since they control the government.

Where do you get your information?  I bet I know more than 90% of the people on this board about what is going on over here and I would say 75% of you are close to what the truth is.
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Len Budney

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2007, 08:28:55 AM »
Where do you get your information?  I bet I know more than 90% of the people on this board about what is going on over here and I would say 75% of you are close to what the truth is.

Map of Iraq by ethnic majority: http://www.stripes.com/mideast/graphics/ethnic.html

Map of Iraq by US casualties/province: http://icasualties.org/oif/Provincemap.aspx

US deaths in Al Anbar, Salah ad-Din, Diyala, Ninawa, At-Ta'mim, Karbala and An Najaf total 2,107. Those are all Sunni regions. In the *expletive deleted*it south there were 285 fatalities. The remaining 1,097 were in Baghdad, and a case can be made that most of those were also caused by Sunni insurgents, but we already have 2/3 of fatalities concentrated in Sunni/Kurd regions, and 88% of fatalities outside Baghdad outside the *expletive deleted*it south.

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wmenorr67

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2007, 08:31:48 AM »
Just because that is where the killing is happening dosen't mean that is who is doing the killing.
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Len Budney

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2007, 08:38:48 AM »
Just because that is where the killing is happening dosen't mean that is who is doing the killing.
You're right; by itself it isn't proof. But it's a mighty strong starting point.

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wmenorr67

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2007, 08:52:49 AM »
But wouldn't it also make sense if you are Shia and want to kill Sunni's you would go to the Sunni neighborhoods?  Because they hate each other with a passion.  And since Iran is Shia wouldn't it make sense for them to back Maliki who is Shia?
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!

Paddy

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2007, 08:59:56 AM »
Len, you're making a lot of unsubstantiated assertions that are contrary to well documented statements by Ahmadenijad.  Add to that your claims regarding who knew what prior to the invasion and your remark (twice)
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Fool me twi--ya can't get fooled ag'in.
and your agenda becomes clear. It's simply more kneejerk spittle flying Bush hatred.

This Administration makes enough errors on its own....you don't have to make stuff up.  It only removes any credibility you might have and makes you look foolish.

So, unless you'd care to provide cites for some of your allegations, I'd say they're bogus.




Len Budney

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2007, 09:15:45 AM »
Len, you're making a lot of unsubstantiated assertions that are contrary to well documented statements by Ahmadenijad.

It's well documented that Ahmedinejad's statement was mistranslated from the Persian. He never advocated the killing of Jews--and if it were so well documented, I assume you would certainly substantiate it, given your statement above? You wouldn't just call it "well documented" without actually pointing to the documentation, I hope?

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Add to that your claims regarding who knew what prior to the invasion...

That IS very well documented. See, for example, this piece, posted a month before the invasion.

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...and your remark (twice), "Fool me twi--ya can't get fooled ag'in." and your agenda becomes clear. It's simply more kneejerk spittle flying Bush hatred.

Nice ad hominem, there. The "knee-jerk" part is certainly wrong: not only was I a staunch Bush supporter in 2, but I have the records of my purchases of tobacco and firearm stocks to prove it (all of which I still hold, BTW). I expected nuisance lawsuits against guns and tobacco to end; I expected tax cuts; and I expected a solid conservative administration without the sleaze of the hellish Clinton years.

What we got did more to complete my transition to libertarianism than anything I can imagine. Bush turned out to be a pro-illegal-immigration tax-and-spend liberal. And if it wasn't bad enough to see (D) Clinton replaced with the even-bigger-spending (R) Clinton, we have since seen the suspension of habeas corpus, the increase of police-state powers of every description, and wholesale slaughter in a nation that had nothing to do with Al Qaeda or 9/11--and which took a nation that did contribute to world terrorism, and convert it into a many-fold worse contributor to world terrorism.

I "hate" Bush because I hate liberals, and I "hate" Bush because I love my liberties and rights.

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This Administration makes enough errors on its own....you don't have to make stuff up.  It only removes any credibility you might have and makes you look foolish.

Yawn. For someone who recently used the word "substantiation" in a sentence, you're not doing too well.

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Len Budney

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2007, 09:22:18 AM »
But wouldn't it also make sense if you are Shia and want to kill Sunni's you would go to the Sunni neighborhoods?

Possibly, but sectarian violence is usually directed first at the local minorities. In this case, the Shiites are focusing much of their energy on killing Sunnis living in the south before running north to find more victims. And vice-versa in the north.

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And since Iran is Shia wouldn't it make sense for them to back Maliki who is Shia?

Definitely: I'd expect Maliki to be friendly to Iran and vice versa. But that's not a crime; indeed, it's to be expected. How can we say we are for the pacification of the Middle East if we're mad whenever folks there make friends with each other?

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Paddy

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2007, 09:36:22 AM »
This is the second time you've linked to Juan Cole. Juan Cole ("a minor nuisance on the fringes of the academic Muslim apologist community,") is not a 'cite', it's an 'opinion'.  You'll need something better than the assertion

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It's well documented that Ahmedinejad's statement was mistranslated from the Persian.

which I assume is yet another 'conspiracy'?  World wide this time, simply to further the evil plans of Bush.

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Nice ad hominem, there. The "knee-jerk" part is certainly wrong: not only was I a staunch Bush supporter in 2, but I have the records of my purchases of tobacco and firearm stocks to prove it (all of which I still hold, BTW). I expected nuisance lawsuits against guns and tobacco to end; I expected tax cuts; and I expected a solid conservative administration without the sleaze of the hellish Clinton years.

What we got did more to complete my transition to libertarianism than anything I can imagine. Bush turned out to be a pro-illegal-immigration tax-and-spend liberal. And if it wasn't bad enough to see (D) Clinton replaced with the even-bigger-spending (R) Clinton, we have since seen the suspension of habeas corpus, the increase of police-state powers of every description, and wholesale slaughter in a nation that had nothing to do with Al Qaeda or 9/11--and which took a nation that did contribute to world terrorism, and convert it into a many-fold worse contributor to world terrorism.

I "hate" Bush because I hate liberals, and I "hate" Bush because I love my liberties and rights.

And that diatribe (which has nothing at to do with Iraq or Ahmadinejad) pretty much proves my point.  You're pissed because you're disappointed and think Bush cost you money.  Well, a lot of us previous Bush supporters( I not only voted for him twice, I actively worked his campaign in 2000) are disappointed.  Get over it.  GWB will be in office until January 20, 2009.  Suck it up.   laugh

wmenorr67

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2007, 09:43:05 AM »
Nothing wrong with friendship of Maliki and Iran, but at the sametime when Maliki turns a blind eye to the border crossings of Shia to and from Iran to receive training and materials then there is a problem.

I have you at a slight disadvantage Len due to the fact that I get to see on a daily basis various reports of what is going on over here.  Hopefully someone will see fit to let these reports become public knowledge in September when Gen Petraeus briefs.

You do speak some truth, but right now the only thing we do know is that our biggest ally over here is the Kurds.  If the rest of the country would decide to get along like they do it would be a rather peaceful country and I could come home.
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

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Len Budney

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2007, 10:02:30 AM »
which I assume is yet another 'conspiracy'?

You need to shut down your ad-hominem machine and give it a rest. You're overworking it.

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And that diatribe (which has nothing at to do with Iraq or Ahmadinejad) pretty much proves my point.

I demonstrates that you're full of beans when you try to paint me as a "liberal Bush hater," which would be nothing more than an ad hominem even if it were true.

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You're pissed because you're disappointed and think Bush cost you money.

Yeah, "suspended habeas corpus" equals "cost me money."   rolleyes

Anyway, I find it deliciously funny when "conservatives" defend Bush's tax-n-spend liberalism because he's "their guy." Nothing says "no principles" like defending your side for doing what you condemn when the other side does it.

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Well, a lot of us previous Bush supporters( I not only voted for him twice, I actively worked his campaign in 2000) are disappointed.  Get over it.  GWB will be in office until January 20, 2009.  Suck it up.   laugh

That's pretty much a non sequitur. Did I say he wouldn't be in office until then? If "suck it up" means "accept the reality" that this guy's crimes will continue until 1/09 and will never be punished, I already have that covered. But if it means that I should just sigh and decide that his crimes aren't so bad, well: how would you have responded to that same advice during the Clinton years?

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Len Budney

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2007, 10:08:10 AM »
Nothing wrong with friendship of Maliki and Iran, but at the sametime when Maliki turns a blind eye to the border crossings of Shia to and from Iran to receive training and materials then there is a problem.

You're introducing charges that are certainly not proven. A bit like saying, "I don't mind that you drive an SUV--but at the same time when you run over puppies and old ladies with it, then there is a problem."

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I have you at a slight disadvantage Len due to the fact that I get to see on a daily basis various reports of what is going on over here.  Hopefully someone will see fit to let these reports become public knowledge in September when Gen Petraeus briefs.

That's certainly an edge. But you can't accuse someone of crimes that you know super-secret proof of, that the rest of us can't know. You can either prove your case, or you're sorta stuck. Otherwise I can bring up my super-secret satellite evidence that you torture kittens. I can't produce the proof, because it's classified--but you should be ashamed of yourself, and folks who pass you on the street should take my advice and spit on your shoe.  grin

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You do speak some truth, but right now the only thing we do know is that our biggest ally over here is the Kurds.  If the rest of the country would decide to get along like they do it would be a rather peaceful country and I could come home.

Give the Kurds some time. If we don't give them a measure of autonomy, they're likely to suffer at the hands of the others, and blame us. But if we do give them autonomy, they'll come into conflict with Turkey over the repression of their Kurdish minority, and the US will have diplomatic issues with Turkey. So, of course, we won't do it--and the Kurds will rightly blame us for keeping them down.

--Len.
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wmenorr67

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Re: Malarkey & I'manutjob
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2007, 10:17:42 AM »
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That's certainly an edge. But you can't accuse someone of crimes that you know super-secret proof of, that the rest of us can't know. You can either prove your case, or you're sorta stuck. Otherwise I can bring up my super-secret satellite evidence that you torture kittens. I can't produce the proof, because it's classified--but you should be ashamed of yourself, and folks who pass you on the street should take my advice and spit on your shoe. 


And do tell what should I be ashamed of? 

And who says things have not been proven?  You or the talking heads.  Just because the public doesn't know everything that is going on doesn't mean there isn't proof.  You yourself would have to admit that 80% of the American public believes what they are told to believe or really don't care.

And as for spitting on my shoe.  What are you going to call for next, calling us baby killers when we come home like happened to the Vietnam Vets?
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!