Author Topic: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immediately  (Read 23137 times)

Paddy

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2007, 03:35:51 PM »
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But when your actions were illegal to begin with, you're much more liable.

Define 'illegal'. 'Illegal' by what standard?

The Rabbi

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2007, 03:38:17 PM »
If I had actually made any of those claims you might be right.

Appeal to authority. Yawn.

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As it is, I made the claim that nation states have powers that individuals do not have.  Among those are taxation, levy of troops, and yes, eminent domain.

You've claimed it. You haven't pretended to prove it. Where does a nation get "powers" from? How does the state exercise those "powers"? If you even try answering that question, of course, you'll fall into the obvious trap: a "nation" does nothing. Individuals do. How does A killing B come to be regarded as murder, while C killing D is deemed to be the action of "the nation"? Because C wears a uniform or badge of some sort?

--Len.

It wasn't an appeal to authority.  It was a bald statement that you're misrepresenting what I wrote.
A nation gets power by both the explicit granting to it via constitution or by common consent.  But those powers are unique to the state, with no analogy to an individual.
Individuals act in their capacity as actors for the state.  This was the whole basis of the Saltpeter Case.
How do you distinguish between a case of self defense and a case of murder?  In the end with both someone is dead.
How do you distinguish between a police officer killing someone in the line of duty and murder? Because one wears a uniform?
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Len Budney

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2007, 03:44:49 PM »
A nation gets power by both the explicit granting to it via constitution or by common consent.  But those powers are unique to the state, with no analogy to an individual.

What do you mean by that, though? If the Iraqi Constitution bars Jews from citizenship, is there no basis on which to call this wrong? If the people of Burundi decide by common consent to slaughter all the Batutsis, is there no basis to call this wrong? WHAT LIMITS GOVERNMENT POWER?

You haven't even tried to address this question.

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How do you distinguish between a case of self defense and a case of murder?  In the end with both someone is dead.

As an armed citizen, I hope you know the answer: if the dead man posed an imminent threat of grave bodily harm, it was self-defense. Are you trying to equate the killing of tens of thousands of Iraqis who posed no threat with self-defense? On what grounds do you do so?

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How do you distinguish between a police officer killing someone in the line of duty and murder? Because one wears a uniform?

EXACTLY THE SAME TEST AS ABOVE, because the police officer is nothing but a citizen who works in the security industry. But that's not your view, because to you the police officer is not simply a citizen like any other. He's an agent of the "state," which has powers transcending those of ordinary citizens. So you should be asking yourself that question.


--Len.
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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2007, 03:53:39 PM »
A nation gets power by both the explicit granting to it via constitution or by common consent.  But those powers are unique to the state, with no analogy to an individual.

What do you mean by that, though? If the Iraqi Constitution bars Jews from citizenship, is there no basis on which to call this wrong? If the people of Burundi decide by common consent to slaughter all the Batutsis, is there no basis to call this wrong? WHAT LIMITS GOVERNMENT POWER?

You haven't even tried to address this question.
You are confusing two things.  There is "wrong" and there is limit to power.  State power is limited by whatever mechanism limits it, generally what is commonly accepted.
Can a state do things that are wrong according to international law?  Yes, like Iraq, which repeatedly violated UN resolutions and cease fire agreements.
Can a state do something you personally might consider morally wrong?  Obviously.  But that is pretty meaningless.

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How do you distinguish between a case of self defense and a case of murder?  In the end with both someone is dead.

As an armed citizen, I hope you know the answer: if the dead man posed an imminent threat of grave bodily harm, it was self-defense. Are you trying to equate the killing of tens of thousands of Iraqis who posed no threat with self-defense? On what grounds do you do so?

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How do you distinguish between a police officer killing someone in the line of duty and murder? Because one wears a uniform?

EXACTLY THE SAME TEST AS ABOVE, because the police officer is nothing but a citizen who works in the security industry. But that's not your view, because to you the police officer is not simply a citizen like any other. He's an agent of the "state," which has powers transcending those of ordinary citizens. So you should be asking yourself that question.


--Len.

--Len.


And what is your basis for making that distinction between self defense and murder?
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Paddy

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2007, 03:53:54 PM »
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EXACTLY THE SAME TEST AS ABOVE, because the police officer is nothing but a citizen who works in the security industry. But that's not your view, because to you the police officer is not simply a citizen like any other. He's an agent of the "state," which has powers transcending those of ordinary citizens. So you should be asking yourself that question.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, goes to the heart of the confusion.  You see, in the lala land of libertarianism, everyone is 'equal' simply because they have a beating heart and lungs that exchange co2 for oxygen.   Yes, Len, there is a "state" and it was established by 'social contract'.  You're familiar with contracts, right?   And that "state" was given certain powers through law for the purpose of securing peace, tranquility, and security for the grantors of those powers.  Not really too hard to understand, is it?

Len Budney

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2007, 03:58:44 PM »
Yes, Len, there is a "state" and it was established by 'social contract'.  You're familiar with contracts, right?

YES. Which is why I know your "social contract" is bunkum:  a "contract" is a voluntary agreement. I never signed this "social contract" of yours, yet you believe I should be forcibly bound by its terms.

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And that "state" was given certain powers through law...

Talk about circular! The state makes the laws! And you say it's given power by law? So in other words, they have certain powers because they say so! That's awesome. If you'll buy that, you'll obviously accept my claims to be the Messiah, and you'll bring me offerings of gold, frankincense and myrrh. I AM the Messiah! After all, the Messiah says so!

--Len.
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Len Budney

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2007, 04:11:20 PM »
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But when your actions were illegal to begin with, you're much more liable.

Define 'illegal'. 'Illegal' by what standard?

I was stating a general principle. However, aggressive war is against international law, and also against 2,000 years of Western thinking concerning "just warfare." It's against the Geneva conventions. And it's immoral--i.e., against natural law. And finally, it's against the Constitution, on two fronts: the federal government is authorized to provide defense only; and only Congress has the power to declare war. There's no applicable standard that doesn't condemn the Iraq invasion as illegal.

...except one: the standard that says, "Whatever the US does is legal, because the US defines 'legal'--even when it breaks its own laws." Which brings us back to an earlier unanswered question: if the US defines what is "legal," then it would be perfectly legal for the US to launch a genocide if it so chose.

--Len.
In a cannibal society, vegetarians arouse suspicion.

Paddy

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2007, 04:21:09 PM »
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YES. Which is why I know your "social contract" is bunkum:  a "contract" is a voluntary agreement. I never signed this "social contract" of yours, yet you believe I should be forcibly bound by its terms.

Sorry Len.  The founding fathers looked for you, but you just couldn't be found.  They had to struggle through without you.

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.except one: the standard that says, "Whatever the US does is legal, because the US defines 'legal'--even when it breaks its own laws." Which brings us back to an earlier unanswered question: if the US defines what is "legal," then it would be perfectly legal for the US to launch a genocide if it so chose.

Why don't you just move to Canada, or better yet, Europe.  You'll be much happier there with the rest of the America haters.  If you think the United States would 'launch a genocide', you're obviously not one of us.

Joe Demko

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If you think the United States would 'launch a genocide', you're obviously not one of us.


There's a fair few who would say, not without justification, that the US did just that several times already.  They're called Native Americans.
That's right... I'm a Jackbooted Thug AND a Juvenile Indoctrination Technician.  Deal with it.

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2007, 04:38:08 PM »
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If you think the United States would 'launch a genocide', you're obviously not one of us.


There's a fair few who would say, not without justification, that the US did just that several times already.  They're called Native Americans.
Hey, I'm a native American.  I was born here.
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Paddy

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2007, 04:38:56 PM »
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If you think the United States would 'launch a genocide', you're obviously not one of us.


There's a fair few who would say, not without justification, that the US did just that several times already.  They're called Native Americans.

Really?  Then where do all these Indian casinos come from?

Go peddle your guilt somewhere else, Joe.

wooderson

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2007, 04:40:35 PM »
So if there are individuals remaining alive, it couldn't have been genocide? I know a few Jewish folk who might find that offensive.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

The Rabbi

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2007, 04:41:09 PM »
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But when your actions were illegal to begin with, you're much more liable.

Define 'illegal'. 'Illegal' by what standard?

I was stating a general principle. However, aggressive war is against international law, and also against 2,000 years of Western thinking concerning "just warfare." It's against the Geneva conventions. And it's immoral--i.e., against natural law. And finally, it's against the Constitution, on two fronts: the federal government is authorized to provide defense only; and only Congress has the power to declare war. There's no applicable standard that doesn't condemn the Iraq invasion as illegal.

...except one: the standard that says, "Whatever the US does is legal, because the US defines 'legal'--even when it breaks its own laws." Which brings us back to an earlier unanswered question: if the US defines what is "legal," then it would be perfectly legal for the US to launch a genocide if it so chose.

--Len.


What is this source for international law you are now invoking?  Who voted on it?  WHo made it?  Where do I go to lobby against what I don't like?
Sorry Mike closed the thread.
But I reiterate my question: on what basis do you make the distinction between a killing in self-defense and murder?
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Paddy

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2007, 04:46:00 PM »
So if there are individuals remaining alive, it couldn't have been genocide? I know a few Jewish folk who might find that offensive.

Sorry wooderson.  I can't go back to 1850 and change history to assuage your guilt.  I guess you just have to deal with it.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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we sign that social contract when suckle from that societys tit. thats why all those black hooded anarchists are so angry  they know they couldn't make it without the system they hate

wooderson

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #65 on: September 18, 2007, 05:17:02 PM »
Not much of a response, Riley. Can we only term something a 'genocide' if the entirety of a given population is destroyed?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Paddy

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #66 on: September 18, 2007, 05:20:49 PM »
Not much of a response, Riley. Can we only term something a 'genocide' if the entirety of a given population is destroyed?

Indians were wantonly slaughtering Indians long before the 'white man' arrived.  Yet you limit your indictment to the victors.  Why is that, wooderson?

wooderson

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #67 on: September 18, 2007, 05:23:00 PM »
Where did I refer to anything as a genocide, Riley?

What I questioned was your argument that the existence of modern American Indians (and their casinos) negates any claims one might make about genocide. Does that always hold true, or only for American Indians?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Paddy

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #68 on: September 18, 2007, 05:25:48 PM »
Where did I refer to anything as a genocide, Riley?

What I questioned was your argument that the existence of modern American Indians (and their casinos) negates any claims one might make about genocide. Does that always hold true, or only for American Indians?

I have no idea what you're talking about, wooderson. Apparently, you think you're on to something of substance.  What's yer point?

wooderson

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #69 on: September 18, 2007, 05:28:59 PM »
Your response to Joe's statement that colonists and the US had committed genocide against American Indians:
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Really?  Then where do all these Indian casinos come from?


Again: is an event only 'genocide' if the entirety of the targeted populace is destroyed?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #70 on: September 18, 2007, 05:38:58 PM »
Did Blackwater kill all the Indians too?
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

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Paddy

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #71 on: September 18, 2007, 05:42:03 PM »
Your response to Joe's statement that colonists and the US had committed genocide against American Indians:
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Really?  Then where do all these Indian casinos come from?


Again: is an event only 'genocide' if the entirety of the targeted populace is destroyed?

Answer: No, for an event to be 'genocide' does not require destruction of the entirety of the targeted populace.  Does that mean you 'win'?  And will you declare the FMV of your 'winnings' on your tax return?

Or what?

Joe Demko

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I'm not trying to make you feel guilty, Riley.  IMO, the treatment of the Indians could accurately be described as genocide and ethnic cleansing.  There was a deliberate effort to remove the people and eradicate their cultures.  How the various tribes got on with each other, and whether some even helped the colonists and US in destroying other tribes, is not germane.
If this doesn't sit well with how you understand US history, please explain to me where I am in error. 
Upthread a ways, this all got started because you were trying to make some kind of "America, love it or leave it!" statement, I believe.  That's rather simplistic and I've come to expect better of you.
That's right... I'm a Jackbooted Thug AND a Juvenile Indoctrination Technician.  Deal with it.

wooderson

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #73 on: September 18, 2007, 06:13:39 PM »
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Answer: No, for an event to be 'genocide' does not require destruction of the entirety of the targeted populace.

Was that so tough?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Paddy

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Re: Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told leave immedia
« Reply #74 on: September 18, 2007, 08:32:33 PM »
I'm not trying to make you feel guilty, Riley.  IMO, the treatment of the Indians could accurately be described as genocide and ethnic cleansing.  There was a deliberate effort to remove the people and eradicate their cultures.  How the various tribes got on with each other, and whether some even helped the colonists and US in destroying other tribes, is not germane.
If this doesn't sit well with how you understand US history, please explain to me where I am in error. 
Upthread a ways, this all got started because you were trying to make some kind of "America, love it or leave it!" statement, I believe.  That's rather simplistic and I've come to expect better of you.

I think you well know I won't withhold criticism of certain politicians who happen to hold temporary office in my country's government.  I will not, however, panoptically condemn my country for any past transgressions.  The United States of America has more than redeemed itself.  This country has shed more blood for other people's freedom,  given more of its wealth in hope of other people's survival, and opened its arms to more refugees and oppressed people than any other country or people in the history of the world. 

You don't have to scratch me very deep to find red white and blue.  I'm an American and proud of it and grateful for it.