Author Topic: Libertarian Party sign up  (Read 29743 times)

Hoppy

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Libertarian Party sign up
« on: October 07, 2007, 08:52:52 PM »
hey guys, its hoppy from THR. i was browsing the libertarian party website and came across this on thier "Member Center" page\

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YES, sign me up as a member of the Libertarian Party. To validate my membership, I certify that I do not advocate the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.

is that a common agreement in political partys' or is this something wierd. cause to be honest some "political or social goals" could require force to be achieved ( preservation of a free state, preservation of rights etc)and i think to just write off all these things is very un-libertarian.

Nitrogen

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2007, 09:53:16 PM »
I have to agree, the INITIATION of force is inappropriate.

If the government starts it first, then i'd reconsider.
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brer

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2007, 10:08:49 PM »
That is a common libertarian concept.

From a libertarion point of view. Many of the governments wrongs spring from its ability to initiate force for any reason.  Removal of the right of the government to initiate force changes the way the government has to work.

MechAg94

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2007, 03:33:13 AM »
I have had a libertarian go through a long and illogical discussion of force and aggression.  It was pointless and made him sound pretty foolish.  Brer's one-liner in post 3 was a lot better.  Smiley

I don't think you are going to have an effective govt without some ability to use force.  I think the founding fathers knew that after their experiences with the Articles of Confederation.  I think many of the states at that time were not very libertarian.  These days, I think the problem is that the Constitution is not really followed.  The general welfare clause basically is the Constitution. 

What would a non-force-capable govt do about the Barbary pirates way back when? 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

brer

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2007, 03:44:01 AM »
The libertarian issue is not with using force, it is with initiating force.

The barbary pirates had already initiated force or the threat of force.  The U.S response was a reaction and used force.

I am not a libertarian, but I have listened to a few that were a bit better spoken. The libertarian viewpoint would not stop the government from using forces were it was called for.  Just the government could not initiate it.

Firethorn

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2007, 08:25:43 AM »
I consider myself a small 'l' libertarian, but I'm also an extremely logical person.

I tend to avoid absolutes - especially vague absolutes like this one.

I mean, how would you define 'initiation'?  Are you allowed to preemptively strike when it becomes obvious that another is going to attack you?

I could see the courts twisting this around so that police officers can't use force to stop a burglar/shop lifter if they try to flee.  After all, their crime involved no force.

K Frame

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2007, 08:39:19 AM »
Beats me.

When I signed up for the Republican Party during the Reagan years I got a rifle, a bandolier of ammunition, and a wad of cash.  laugh
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2007, 09:42:58 AM »
I'm a small 'l' libertarian as well.  Generally I do not believe in the initiation of force.  However, I can foresee certain circumstances in which the initiation of force against the State might be warranted.

Len Budney

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2007, 09:53:48 AM »
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YES, sign me up as a member of the Libertarian Party. To validate my membership, I certify that I do not advocate the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.

is that a common agreement in political partys' or is this something wierd...

For many of us small-l libertarians, it's the definition of libertarianism: we unconditionally condemn initiation of force. Defensive force, on the other hand, is perfectly fine for most of us--i.e., all of us who aren't pacifists.

Dasmi, I think in cases where force against the state is justified, it is easily enough seen to be defensive force, so it doesn't contradict the above.

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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2007, 09:54:42 AM »
Len, exactly. 

Paddy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2007, 09:58:20 AM »
It's December 1941.  America is Libertopia. Imperial Japanese forces have attacked our hired mercenaries defense forces at Pearl Harbor. 3k killed, half the assets destroyed.  Meanwhile in Yurp, Hitler has long since begun war with the invasion of Poland a couple years ago.  SS Troopers stroll down the Champs d'Elyess and enjoy coffee in the sidewalk bistros of Paris.  Buzz bombs pound London and it is clear England will soon fall under Nazi rule. The British are desperate and begging us for help.

Our hired mercs in the Pacific now want to renegotiate their contract.  They threaten a strike (oops! coercion-that isn't allowed, what to do?)  Or, if you don't like that scenario, the Supreme Libertarian Council-LSC (or whatever you guys call yourselves; I have no idea how you administrate the country) declares a breach of contract by the mercs because they're no longer able to provide security with 3k killed and half their assets destroyed).

OK, so what do you libertarians do?  You can't conscript anybody, that would be slavery or initiation of force or whatever the hell........

I think you'd all wind up speaking German before it was over.

Len Budney

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2007, 10:03:42 AM »
It's December 1941.  America is Libertopia. Imperial Japanese forces have attacked our hired mercenaries defense forces at Pearl Harbor. 3k killed, half the assets destroyed...

It's tough to play "what if" games of that sort, because too many things would be different. For example, we wouldn't have provoked the Japanese looking for an excuse to enter the war, so Pearl Harbor would probably not have happened.

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Our hired mercs in the Pacific now want to renegotiate their contract.  They threaten a strike...

Yeah, because they'd much rather become subjects of the Third Reich as a result of dithering around for pennies.

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OK, so what do you libertarians do?  You can't conscript anybody, that would be slavery or initiation of force or whatever the hell........

I can tell you what I do: I open my gun cabinet wide. As does everyone else who doesn't want to learn German. The beauty of defensive force is that one doesn't have to sell it, the way invasions are sold. German landing craft off the shore of Connecticut has a splendid way of motivating every able-bodied person to rally.

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Paddy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2007, 10:33:13 AM »
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For example, we wouldn't have provoked the Japanese looking for an excuse to enter the war, so Pearl Harbor would probably not have happened.

It seems extremely naive to believe there is no aggression without provocation.  Power hungry megalomaniacs have been attacking others without provocation for thousands of years.

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Yeah, because they'd much rather become subjects of the Third Reich as a result of dithering around for pennies.

Why do you automatically assume they have some allegiance to Libertopia?  They're negotiating with the Third Reich also.  Highest bidder wins. Cash is king.

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I can tell you what I do: I open my gun cabinet wide. As does everyone else who doesn't want to learn German. The beauty of defensive force is that one doesn't have to sell it, the way invasions are sold. German landing craft off the shore of Connecticut has a splendid way of motivating every able-bodied person to rally.

Len's gun cabinet is going to stand against the Nazi war machine?  Do your really believe that? If you haven't 'rallied' long before German landing craft are off the Connecticut shore, you've already lost. 

Bottom line is Libertopia has no workable policy for self defense against outside aggression, save a lot ow wishful thinking.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2007, 10:35:46 AM »
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"You cannot invade the mainland United States.
There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
(Japanese Navy)

The Germans probably would've come to the same conclusion.  And they'd have been right.

Len Budney

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2007, 10:54:10 AM »
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For example, we wouldn't have provoked the Japanese looking for an excuse to enter the war, so Pearl Harbor would probably not have happened.

It seems extremely naive to believe there is no aggression without provocation.

I never said that. I said that Pearl Harbor was provoked.

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Yeah, because they'd much rather become subjects of the Third Reich as a result of dithering around for pennies.

Why do you automatically assume they have some allegiance to Libertopia?  They're negotiating with the Third Reich also.  Highest bidder wins. Cash is king.

Sounds like a caricature. In the 1930's and 1940's there were tens of millions of Americans who didn't want to become part of the Third Reich. There's no reason to suppose that if those people had been free from impositions such as income tax and the NFA, they would have suddenly yearned to be ruled by Hitler.

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I can tell you what I do: I open my gun cabinet wide. As does everyone else who doesn't want to learn German. The beauty of defensive force is that one doesn't have to sell it, the way invasions are sold. German landing craft off the shore of Connecticut has a splendid way of motivating every able-bodied person to rally.

Len's gun cabinet is going to stand against the Nazi war machine?

Mine and three hundred million others, yes. See Dasmi's quote. The entire German "war machine" consisted of only about 15 million soldiers. We'd outnumber them 20 to 1--and since in libertopia every citizen is a rifleman, we'd outshoot them by a wide margin.

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brer

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2007, 12:19:40 PM »
Gotta go with Len on this one.

We were fighting the nips by proxy quite a while before our involvement in WW2.  FDR was looking for a way into the war and did everything in his power to provoke the Japs.

Lens gun cabinet might not defeat an invading force, But mine in addition to his, and all of our neighbors, and their neighbors and their neighbors neighbors,,,




roo_ster

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2007, 12:25:10 PM »
Pearl Harbor provoked?

The reason given in the historical records by the Japanese was that refusing to sell them the requisites for their war machine (iron, oil) were what instigated Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.  IOW, we refused to provide the Japs the resources to Nanking the rest of east Asia.

Just how is choosing not to deal with someone "provocation?"

Quote from: RileyMc
It seems extremely naive to believe there is no aggression without provocation.  Power hungry megalomaniacs have been attacking others without provocation for thousands of years.
Len doesn't believe in aggression without provocation or power hungry megalomaniacs who might attack without being attacked first.  We went over this ground in another thread (Len never really comes to grips with it, as you'll see if you scroll down & read his replies).
Regards,

roo_ster

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Hoppy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2007, 12:36:13 PM »
ok alternative WW2 aside

whats the differnance between a "Small l Libertarian" and i suppose, a large L one?

im seriously interested in joining the Libertarian Party. i was a die hard republican for a long time, but now i can no longer support something i no longer see hope in. i dont want to choose the lesser of 2 evils. dem's who want my money to go to all kinds of gov freebies for lazy bastards or illegals. and want to take all guns away. or republicans who only want to take a little of my money illegaly, 16th ammendment IS unconstitutional. whether we SHOULD be taxed by the gov is another arguement.and cave to political pressure to take some guns away (years like 1934 and 1986 come to mind along with numbers like 922 and letters like UN come to mind)

i figure we should do the closests to "cleaing the slate" and  drasticaly cut gov.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2007, 12:39:53 PM »
Small 'l' folks don't agree with the entire, official Libertarian Party Platform.  They may be registered as another party, but hold libertarian views. 

Len Budney

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2007, 12:49:21 PM »
Len doesn't believe in aggression without provocation or power hungry megalomaniacs who might attack without being attacked first...

Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm perfectly aware that such people exist. We even have one as our executive right now. The answer to that problem is not to go anoint your own power-hungry megalomaniac. The answer is to get out your battle rifle and defend your home until said megalomaniac, along with his followers, are dead or in retreat.

--Len.
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Len Budney

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2007, 12:52:18 PM »
whats the differnance between a "Small l Libertarian" and i suppose, a large L one?

Big-L is the Libertarian party. Lately they've been willing to make major compromises on principle in hopes of improving their chances of getting elected. We small-l libertarians regard that with disgust, because it doesn't materially improve their chances, but does great harm to the cause.

Think "gun owners versus the NRA," and you have the general idea.  grin

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im seriously interested in joining the Libertarian Party. i was a die hard republican for a long time, but now i can no longer support something i no longer see hope in. i dont want to choose the lesser of 2 evils. dem's who want my money to go to all kinds of gov freebies for lazy bastards or illegals. and want to take all guns away. or republicans who only want to take a little of my money illegaly...

Welcome! Have you considered staying registered Republican long enough to vote for RP in the primaries?

--Len.
In a cannibal society, vegetarians arouse suspicion.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2007, 12:53:45 PM »

Welcome! Have you considered staying registered Republican long enough to vote for RP in the primaries?

--Len.


I switched back to the Darkside for exactly that purpose.

brer

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2007, 01:37:35 PM »
jfruser

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers

America had been involved attacking the japanese military before Pearl harbor.

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2007, 02:10:50 PM »
jfruser

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers

America had been involved attacking the japanese military before Pearl harbor.

If you'd read the story you linked you'd have noticed this:
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The AVG did not see combat until December 20, 1941, twelve days after Pearl Harbor.

Also, they were their to help the Chinese defend themselves against the Japanese.
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Paddy

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Re: Libertarian Party sign up
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2007, 02:44:24 PM »
It's fall 2007.  America is Libertopia. Several dozen unrelated people in different states are hospitalized with e coli infections. None know about the other, and all eventually recover.  But in the days and weeks that follow, there are more hospitalizations, followed by several deaths, mostly young children.  The hospitals begin to notice a trend as they communicate with each other.  Tainted meat may be the source, but there's no USDA to track it down, so the hospitalizations and deaths continue.  A few wealthy libertarians send suspected hamburger samples off to labs, who confirm the strain.  The meat, all packaged under different labels, is traced back to the Topps Meat Co in Elizabeth NJ.  The libertarians file suit against Topps, and a hearing is set 3 months hence.

Meanwhile, Topps continues to produce and sell millions of pounds of tainted meat.  The hospitalizations and deaths increase to epidemic proportions which then become national news.  The plaintiffs notify the media that Topps is the source; Topps denies the allegations and asserts their product is safe.  People stop buying meat.  Meat industry stock goes into freefall, dragging ancillary industries with it.  The stock market drops 25% in a little over a week. Individuals and pension funds lose billions $.

The meat industry get an emergency injunction (is that even allowed in Libertopia? Who enforces it?)
Anyway, they get Topps to stop producing meat, however Topps now has 50 million pounds of tainted meat out in the marketplace.  By the time all this happens, over 1,000,000 people have eaten infected meat and a quarter of them (250,000) have died.

Reality:  What really happened of course is that the USDA shut down Topps, using the police power of government, before anyone died.  Only 30 people got sick.  The stock market was unaffected.

The 'free market' proves itself again. Thanks, Libertopia!