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Author Topic: The Armenian thing...what the HELL are the dems doing to foreign relations now?!  (Read 10048 times)
Manedwolf
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« on: October 11, 2007, 01:51:37 AM »

WTF?!

Why the hell are they putting forward a nonbinding resolution about something that may or may not have happened in 1915? Why now?

First off, the Armenian community in Turkey now fears reprisals.

Secondly...TURKEY MIGHT DENY US BASE RIGHTS! Or restrict our supply lines...70% of the supplies going to our Iraq troops go through Turkey!

Right in the middle of a war! Is this the Dem's treasonous way to "prevent" an intervention in Iran and to cut off our troops in Iraq, by causing the Turks to deny us airbases by offending them? Like throwing a lit Molotov and running for it?

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/11/us.turkey.armenians/

What the HELL?!  angry

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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2007, 02:05:05 AM »

Why?

I think you noted why.

70% of the US supplies go through Turkey.

Dems manage to strangle that and then they can say "Hey, supporting a military force isn't viable anymore! We need to get them out now!"

I suspect that this has NOTHING to do with dead Armenians and everything to do with trying to get US troops out of Iraq by any means possible.
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jefnvk
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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2007, 02:13:51 AM »

I was just about to post the same question.

My opinion?  Alienating Turkey, makes fighting Iraq much harder.  Any further difficulty in fighting the war, will probably result in people getting more pissed, and drop support even more.

In all honesty, its a way to try and cut out the war, without doing it directly.
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Manedwolf
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2007, 02:23:44 AM »

This is particularly sneaky because it cuts out the war in an irreversible way. Once the Turks are offended enough to deny us road and base clearance, it's out of our court...nobody can tell the Dems "stop it", they lit the fire and ran off cackling.

goddamned traitors...
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Standing Wolf
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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2007, 02:38:02 AM »

Quote
Why the hell are they putting forward a nonbinding resolution about something that may or may not have happened in 1915?

The Turkish genocidal war against Armenians actually did happen. That said", I suspect none but the most base and scurrilous motivations on the part of representatives of the Democratic (sic) party these many years later.
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HankB
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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2007, 02:38:15 AM »

If relations with Turkey go south because of this, Bush's job becomes more difficult.

That alone makes it a worthy goal to the Democrats.

Anything - literally anything at all - that causes difficulty for Bush is justified in their minds. It doesn't matter who else is hurt or what the consequences are, so long as Bush or his policies are damaged, it's worthwhile; anything from taxes to treason is acceptable in their minds so long as the action is a negative for Bush.

(BTW, I am NOT a Bush fan by any stretch of the imagination . . . I'm just disgusted by those exhibiting Bush Derangement Syndrome, who want to "get" Bush at all costs.  angry )
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Manedwolf
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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2007, 02:43:27 AM »

Quote
Why the hell are they putting forward a nonbinding resolution about something that may or may not have happened in 1915?

The Turkish genocidal war against Armenians actually did happen. That said", I suspect none but the most base and scurrilous motivations on the part of representatives of the Democratic (sic) party these many years later.

Yes, I know it did. But the timing is the thing. I don't think they care at all about that, either...it was in 1915!

Even if the the Turks did that back then, we really need their assistance in this war. And I think the Dems knew it.

The only people this is going to hurt are the troops who might run out of ammo, fuel and parts. And, even more ironically, the Armenians in Turkey who might experience backlash violence if it passes. They don't want it, either. 
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jefnvk
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« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2007, 05:17:17 AM »

Personally, I don't wish harm to come to anyone over this.  However, I would like to see those who brought it up, try and justify it, should:

a) The troops suffer because of it, or
b) Violence breaks out between Turks and Armenians

There is no reason to do this, besides political.  Yes, it happened.  Yes, it is probably not well known.  I personally do not know if there is still Turk-Armenian tension, and people promoting violence between the groups.  I would doubt it, at least on any big scale.  Nothing is going to be made better by this, only worse.

Also, wasn't Turkey the Ottoman Empire during this time?
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jefnvk
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« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2007, 05:41:17 AM »

Turks are pissed, their Ambassador has been recalled: http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/11/us.turkey.armenians/index.html
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Manedwolf
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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2007, 05:43:03 AM »

Even BBC was at a loss for words, just "Why is the American congress doing that now?"
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GigaBuist
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« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2007, 06:41:37 AM »

I'm not sure what the big deal is this time around.  A quick search on Thomas shows:

 1 . [110th] Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution (Introduced in House)[H.RES.106.IH ]
2 . [109th] Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution (Introduced in House)[H.RES.316.IH ]
3 . [106th] Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution (Introduced in House)[H.RES.596.IH ]
4 . [106th] United States Training on and Commemoration of the Armenian Genocide Resolution (Introduced in House)[H.RES.398.IH ]
5 . [106th] United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution (Introduced in House)[H.RES.155.IH ]
6 . [106th] Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution (Reported in House)[H.RES.596.RH ]

... We've done this before.
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jefnvk
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2007, 07:23:49 AM »

Never got to a general vote, though, as far as I know, which is where this appears to be heading.

Things like this make me realize why Congress can't get anythign important done.
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I still say 'Give Detroit to Canada'
Patriot
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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2007, 08:54:06 AM »

I'm not sure what the big deal is this time around.  A quick search on Thomas shows:

 1 . [110th] Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution (Introduced in House)[H.RES.106.IH ]
2 . [109th] Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution (Introduced in House)[H.RES.316.IH ]
3 . [106th] Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution (Introduced in House)[H.RES.596.IH ]
4 . [106th] United States Training on and Commemoration of the Armenian Genocide Resolution (Introduced in House)[H.RES.398.IH ]
5 . [106th] United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution (Introduced in House)[H.RES.155.IH ]
6 . [106th] Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution (Reported in House)[H.RES.596.RH ]

... We've done this before.

Previous Congresses were unwilling or unable to let it get this far.  The current one has seemingly indicated that it is inane enough to do just that.  No doubt they want to please east-coast and CA Armenian lobbies and undercut Bush and the Iraq war.  Turkey is strategically and logistically important to the U.S. 

Not only that, the Armenian incident occurred under a military coup in the Ottoman Empire circa 1915 for goodness sake.  Since then, Turkey has experienced a complete change of government and rulers.  Heck, it isn't even the same country/state.  They are (or were) relatively pro-western and pro-US, especially in comparison to their Middle Eastern neighbors.  In conjunction with the equally retarded non-binding resolution on partitioning Iraq (which is not favorable to Turkey:  they don't want any semblance of a Kurdish state on their borders) and the cross-border operations of Kurdish insurgents in Iraq/Turkey, our relations with Turkey could be jeopardized in a huge way.  Turkey just recalled its ambassador to the U.S. - they take this whole thing pretty seriously. 
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Sergeant Bob
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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2007, 09:12:12 AM »

I called my Representative (R) about this to voice my displeasure at the Demo's idiocy. Hope the Repub's will grow a pair and smack them around a bit.
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MechAg94
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« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2007, 10:22:47 AM »

Well, Nancy Pelosi is the Speaker.  Do you think any of the drones in the media will bother to ask her why it was brought up?
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Waitone
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« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2007, 10:37:07 AM »

The Turks have historically liked to stick to the Americans at key moments, something a real ally would avoid.  They've had reasons but not sufficient to justify their actions. 
 
BTW, I'm not saying we're pure as the driven snow.  We have our own dirt to explain.
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Patriot
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« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2007, 10:47:06 AM »

The Turks have historically liked to stick to the Americans at key moments, something a real ally would avoid.  They've had reasons but not sufficient to justify their actions. 
 
BTW, I'm not saying we're pure as the driven snow.  We have our own dirt to explain.

Specifics would be nice. 

One of our other allies in the region has strafed an American warship, flaunted our requests on more than one occasion and spied on us. 

Relations with Turkey have been generally advantageous to the U.S. 
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De Selby
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« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2007, 10:48:10 AM »

I think they are simply not thinking through or not interested in the foreign policy implications.

The Armenian American groups have done a pretty good job of organizing themselves to support it.  They have more power over whether or not some key congressmen get elected than the Turkish government does; hence, there are trends in congress towards supporting something that the Armenian community wants, to the detriment of the Turkish government.  

no secret plot, just politics
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wooderson
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« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2007, 11:55:19 AM »

Quote
Not only that, the Armenian incident occurred under a military coup in the Ottoman Empire circa 1915 for goodness sake.  Since then, Turkey has experienced a complete change of government and rulers. 

The Turks continue to deny responsibility for the genocide, and there is a high level of animosity toward Armenians throughout the country.

A 'complete change of government' is questionable - the rulers of the era (the CUP/Young Turks) were highly influential on post-Ottoman Turkey. Ataturk himself, while not involved in the initial genocide, had some role in the ethnic cleansing of Armenians later on.
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Manedwolf
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« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2007, 12:16:47 PM »

Quote
Not only that, the Armenian incident occurred under a military coup in the Ottoman Empire circa 1915 for goodness sake.  Since then, Turkey has experienced a complete change of government and rulers. 

The Turks continue to deny responsibility for the genocide, and there is a high level of animosity toward Armenians throughout the country.

So? What part of "70% of supplies and 30% of fuel for our troops in Iraq go through Turkey" are you not getting?

We can't afford to do this now! It'll strangle the war, and cause the soldiers to run out of ammo and essential supplies if the supply lines are cut off!

Which is precisely what Nasty Nancy wants.
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wooderson
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« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2007, 12:50:22 PM »

Yes, I foresee American troops stranded in the desert without food or ammunition, being slaughtered by the hundreds. Because God knows that supply lines can't be altered. (And having to reconsider our place in Iraq would be a real tragedy.)

And of course Pelosi wants this wholesale slaughter, because she's a secret al-Qaeda plant, right?  rolleyes
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Joe Demko
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« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2007, 12:53:42 PM »

You talk about "strangling the war" like it's a bad thing.
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wooderson
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« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2007, 12:56:36 PM »

Of course! Strangling the war means abandoning our troops in the desert with no supplies. Not "withdrawing them" or anything crazy like that. The Democrats will demand they fight to the last bullet and then hurl themselves at the terra-ists for hand to hand combat.
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Patriot
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« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2007, 02:02:28 PM »

Quote
Not only that, the Armenian incident occurred under a military coup in the Ottoman Empire circa 1915 for goodness sake.  Since then, Turkey has experienced a complete change of government and rulers. 

The Turks continue to deny responsibility for the genocide, and there is a high level of animosity toward Armenians throughout the country.

A 'complete change of government' is questionable - the rulers of the era (the CUP/Young Turks) were highly influential on post-Ottoman Turkey. Ataturk himself, while not involved in the initial genocide, had some role in the ethnic cleansing of Armenians later on.

What can I say?  It would seem that you have a better grasp on the situation than the average individual, given that CUP and Ataturk aren't exactly household names outside Turkey....

However, my understanding was that Ataturk, while a member of the CUP as it began (a secret society among young military officers advocating change), was not a significant part of the ruling group that came to power, and in fact was on the outs with the 'triumvirate' of ministers who effectively controlled the Ottoman government when the 1915-17 genocide took place. 

I know he suppressed a Kurdish revolt during his rule, but am unaware of any ethnic cleansing of Armenians. 
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De Selby
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« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2007, 02:10:47 PM »


There's another angle to this I think we're all not considering.

What if the Turks are using this as a figleaf to get themselves out of helping with the Iraq war?

They have plenty of reasons to oppose continued US presence in Iraq; maybe the resolution is one way to justify it while blaming the US for causing the controversey.
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