Author Topic: The Armenian thing...what the HELL are the dems doing to foreign relations now?!  (Read 15321 times)

jefnvk

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I ask again, what good is this going to do the situtation of a genocide that happened 90 years ago?
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Manedwolf

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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Sunday that she intends to move ahead with a vote on a resolution that labels the deaths of more than a million Armenians during World War I as genocide.

That's from today.



im in yr congress, choking yr war...

longeyes

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The idea is to scuttle the war and embarrass Bush.  The Armenians are just useful, that's all.

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280plus

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Geez, I watched that broad yesterday on one poli talk show or another. I got the distinct impression the porch light was on but nobody was home. She just strikes me as a real dimwit. Frightening is the best way I can think of to describe it. We are so screwed...  angry
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charby

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So why aren't they affirming the atrocities that the Japanese did to allied POW's? 

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RevDisk

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I ask again, what good is this going to do the situtation of a genocide that happened 90 years ago?

I'd really love to see the reaction if the same folks said the same things about the Holocaust.  "You know, it was a while ago, and we have bases there that are kinda important...   So why bring it up after 60 years?" 

FYI, but Turkey still has the land they annexed from Armenia during said genocide.  They still possess 12 provinces.


Quote from: Manedwolf
goddamned traitors...

Question, do you consider the band System of a Down to be traitors to the republic as well?  The band members are all decendants of Armenian genocide survivors and have worked to promote awareness. 


I'm not naive to believe this was an attempt to right past wrongs and acknowledge the horrors committed by an ally of ours.  However, Turkey IS guilty of slaughtering roughly a million folks, stealing their land, and refusing to take responsibility for their past crimes.
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Manedwolf

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RevDisk, right now, WE NEED TURKEY. Troops will literally die if the supply lines are suddenly cut off. It'll take a while to reroute everything, and in the meantime, there could be possibly fatal shortages of critical ammo, spares, whatever.

The dems have been told this. Hence, traitors.

Art Eatman

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It's a way to screw up our efforts in Iraq while pretending to support the troops.  "Oops!  We can't supply them, so we have to bring them home."  And ignore the screwed-up mess left behind.

(Regardless of one's views on that war:  You don't vomit on somebody's carpet and then just walk off and leave it filthy.)

Much like California's microstamp law on guns.  Ostensibly about crime, but really about making life difficult for gun buyers.
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wooderson

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Troops will literally die if the supply lines are suddenly cut off.
I'm a-feared that I'm not allowed to say exactly what you're full of.
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jefnvk

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I am surely not saying it isn't important to recognize this happened.  I am wondering why Congress has nothing better to do than to debate what history should be labeled as, and wondering what, if any, difference it is going to make, besides screwing over ties with an ally.

And personally, yes, I would respond the same if Congress brought up a resolution to start relabeling the Holocaust.  Or the killing of Indians.  Or against the Khmer Rouge.  Or any other tragedy that happened years ago and has been resolved.
I still say 'Give Detroit to Canada'

Joe Demko

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The Armenian genocide has not "been resolved."  The Turks did it, gained by it, and deny it ever happened.

If it strangles the war, then good.  Bring the troops home and leave the mess we made behind.  I see no point in staying, killing a bunch of them, getting a bunch of ours killed, and then saying "F*** it, let's go home!" afterward.  I said (over and over at TFL and THR) in the months leading up to our invasion that the war in Iraq would be easy, it would be the "peace" that was long, bloody, and expensive. 
When you tramp in a big pile of *expletive deleted*it, the thing to do is scrape it off your shoes and move on, not march in place on it hoping that it will miraculously turn into shoe polish.  Whether you tramped in that pile of *expletive deleted*it by mistake, or out of ignorance, or out of stupidity doesn't matter after it's all over your shoes.
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Manedwolf

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Joe, I'll just say that you have absolutely zero concept of what's involved in supplying the troops. You can't "just strangle the war" and make them come home. All you'd be doing is endangering the troops, and opening them up to insurgent attacks as they try to back out without sufficient supplies. If you just "turn around", all that happens is that the enemy pops up and shoots you in the back as you try to run away.

What you're suggesting is not "strangling the war", it's abandoning the troops.

Joe Demko

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You saying it doesn't make it so.
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RevDisk

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RevDisk, right now, WE NEED TURKEY. Troops will literally die if the supply lines are suddenly cut off. It'll take a while to reroute everything, and in the meantime, there could be possibly fatal shortages of critical ammo, spares, whatever.

The dems have been told this. Hence, traitors.

Ah, I think you slightly overstate the case.  Iraq does have ports.  Umm Qasr being the best port for handling logistics.  Basra being a bit on the unstable side...  Kuwait, with significant concessions.  Jordan, maybe, with enough concessions.  I am in no way, shape or form saying they'd be nearly as convenient as shipping through Turkish and Kurdish territories.  I'm saying you are overstating that US troops will be overrun and left to die if we have a spat with Turkey.  Troops will literally die with or without Turkish supply lines.  I do not think the number will be significantly different with or without Turkish supply lines.  It's a matter of convenience and cost, not additional casualities. 


Unless of course Turkey invades Kurdish territory and we look the other way.  Then yes, if the Kurds believe we're simply the next Saddam Hussein, we're good and screwed.  The Kurds are the only group not actively trying to kill American soldiers.  They've been using the last few years to build up weapons, infrastructure and forces. 


For the sake of irony and argument, I quote our beloved President.

Quote
The twentieth century was marred by wars of unimaginable brutality, mass murder and genocide. History records that the Armenians were the first people of the last century to have endured these cruelties. The Armenians were subjected to a genocidal campaign that defies comprehension and commands all decent people to remember and acknowledge the facts and lessons of an awful crime in a century of bloody crimes against humanity. If elected President, I would ensure that our nation properly recognizes the tragic suffering of the Armenian people.


Gov. Bush on February 19, 2000   http://www.anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid=3
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MechAg94

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You saying it doesn't make it so.
Whatever.  I get the impression you agree with this resolution for the same reason Pelosi does. 


This resolution does nothing for Armenians.  It is just politics.  If the Dems want to cut off the war effort, they can do so at any time.  They control the purse strings in Congress.  They just don't have the nads to do so since they know that people might be upset with the running of the war, but they most definitely don't want us to give up and go home (lose). 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Joe Demko

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If the war is choked off, I count it as a good thing.  If that puts me on the same page as Pelosi for that particular topic, so be it.  You are not going to insult me by using the tired tactic of saying "If you want A then that makes you just the same as So-and-so  who also wants A."
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Manedwolf

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If the war is choked off, I count it as a good thing.  If that puts me on the same page as Pelosi for that particular topic, so be it.  You are not going to insult me by using the tired tactic of saying "If you want A then that makes you just the same as So-and-so  who also wants A."

If you're in favor of "choking off the war", you're in favor of causing hardship and shortages for the troops, who cannot just "leave"....they'll continue to be attacked even if they surrender and retreat as the Democrat party wants. And troops will be killed as a result. THAT is what you're in favor of, then.

Joe Demko

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You seem to think that the troops themselves will simply be abandoned.  As much of an idiot as I believe their C-in-C to be, I don't believe he's that stupid.  Nor do I believe the Congress has any plans for that.  Just as our military knows how to do invasions, they know how to do withdrawals.
If your objection is that you believe the war should continue to be prosecuted, please address it from that standpoint.  I think it is disingenuous of you to phrase this as if you believe the troops will simply be left behind in Iraq.
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Manedwolf

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Joe, you're not grasping the fact that abandoning the troops by cutting off their supplies will no longer be a choice if the Turks are annoyed enough to cut off the supply lines.

Once it's done, it's done. It's why the dems are doing it this way. They're throwing a Molotov through the window and running.

Joe Demko

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There are other, more difficult, ways to re-supply the troops.  Re-supply via Turkey is the easiest, most efficient, and therefore most preferable method.  It isn't the only method.

Look, I'll flatly state that I've been against this war since before the actual invasion.  I believe it has been a costly, bloody, pointless error.  I'd have no qualms about loading the troops up and bringing them home today, regardless of what the Turks decide to do.  I don't want to spend an additional penny or one more drop of American blood on a mistake.
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Manedwolf

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Your naivety is showing. You cannot "just load up" and bring home the troops. Even a withdrawal would take MONTHS, and they'd be under fire the entire time!

Joe Demko

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I never said it would be easy or free of casualties. 
I am against continuing the war.  You are, apparently, for continuing it.  I believe that is where this discussion is going to stall.
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mtnbkr

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Stalled.

Chris