Author Topic: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq  (Read 25264 times)

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2007, 05:05:24 PM »
Heh.  Ron Paul isn't a nutjob because he wants sound money or civil liberties or whatever.  Ron Paul is a nutjob despite wanting sound money etc.

The fact that the man is a loon is largely coincidental.  Find me a viable candidate that believes sensible libertarian principles and who isn't also crazy, and I'll definitely consider voting for him.

Finch

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2007, 06:50:10 PM »
Heh.  Ron Paul isn't a nutjob because he wants sound money or civil liberties or whatever.  Ron Paul is a nutjob despite wanting sound money etc.

The fact that the man is a loon is largely coincidental.  Find me a viable candidate that believes sensible libertarian principles and who isn't also crazy, and I'll definitely consider voting for him.

And it begins again. Here we go calling Ron Paul a nutjob/crazy/moonbat/loony/BlahBlahBlah without giving any reason or evidence as to WHY he is a nutjob/crazy/moonbat/loony/BlahBlahBlah. Maybe it is jealousy that a REAL conservative is actually running for president and that Gods gift to the neoconservative party Fred Thompson turned out to be nothing but a lame actor who thought it would be cool to run for president.
Truth is treason in the empire of lies - Ron Paul

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2007, 07:01:56 PM »
How should I know why Ron Paul is crazy?  Maybe his mother dropped him on his head as an infant.  Maybe he has some sort of diagnosable mental illness.  Maybe he's gone senile in his old age.  Who knows?

I don't know why he believes some of his crazy beliefs.  Fact is he believes them.  And that's enough.

Finch

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2007, 08:11:21 PM »
How should I know why Ron Paul is crazy?  Maybe his mother dropped him on his head as an infant.  Maybe he has some sort of diagnosable mental illness.  Maybe he's gone senile in his old age.  Who knows?

I don't know why he believes some of his crazy beliefs.  Fact is he believes them.  And that's enough.

Now Headless, you and I both know I wasn't looking for a physical or medical reason. But hey, I shouldn't have expected you to be specific in your response. Silly me, expecting logic and sound reasoning.  rolleyes

Edit - I can now see why you put that link in your sig Headless, it is full of limp sources and wild unfounded accusations. Just like most of Ron Pauls detractors.
Truth is treason in the empire of lies - Ron Paul

Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2007, 09:55:54 AM »
I don't know why he believes some of his crazy beliefs.  Fact is he believes them.  And that's enough.

I've seen the light. All that crap about "liberty" and "non-aggression" is just so much pabulum for liberal bleeding-heart suckers. From now on, anyone who ticks me off had better hide, because I've decided it's time to smite any pansy-*** who doesn't see things my way. I'll start with anyone who calls non-aggression "crazy." When I'm done with them, they'll either embrace non-aggression or they'll fertilize the next generation of daisies. RAAAWRR!

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2007, 04:48:10 PM »
I think Ron Paul is crazy because he advocates many, many crazy ideas.  These ideas aren't just unusual or unconventional, many of 'em are downright stupid or self-evidently wrong or contradictory.  The man can't possibly believe all of his s*** and still  be fully sane.

Some examples...

The gold standard proved untenable back in the early 1900s.  Thankfully, we moved on to a system that doesn't limit economic growth by our ability to dig shiny yellow metal out of the ground.  Ron Paul is crazy to think that reverting to a failed, obsolete monetary policy would be a good idea.  Realistically, all it'd do is strangle the economy.

Saying things to the effect of "Iran would never be able to invade the mainland USA, so they aren't a threat" isn't just crazy, it's downright dangerous.  An understanding of unconventional and asymmetric warfare is probably the single most important requirement of a Commander in Chief today.  Of all the presidential candidates, both Republican and Democrat, Ron Paul is the one who seems to understand this the least.  It's crazy to profess that isolationism, Letters of Marque, and a bounty on Osama bin Laden are all we need to protect the country today.

(Incidentally, we use bounties already; Saddam Hussein, Al Zarqawi, and ObL all have/had $25 million bounties on their heads.  Perhaps some one should inform the Paul campaign.  And if bounties are supposed to be enough to bring in ObL, where is he?)

Ron Paul rails against the Patriot Act.  Then he complains that the nation's intelligence gathering agencies can't communicate with each other, which is the very problem that the Patriot Act addressed.   Then he proposes abolishing the FBI, our biggest and most important investigative agency.  That he holds these contradictory and irreconcilable views indicates to me that Ron Paul is crazy.

Look, we've been over all this before.  I don't want to have to type all this out again and again.  It's not like y'all are going to change your minds...

Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2007, 03:29:12 AM »
Some examples...

Much better. Without specifics, discussion is impossible.

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The gold standard proved untenable back in the early 1900s.  Thankfully, we moved on to a system that doesn't limit economic growth by our ability to dig shiny yellow metal out of the ground...

You're voicing a common economic fallacy that the economy is somehow limited by its supply of currency. That's false. On a gold standard, or any other stable currency, increased wealth is accommodated very simply: prices fall. If we were still on the original gold standard, and an ounce of gold were pegged at $20, then a new Macbook Pro would cost roughly $60. That's all.

Nobody made any grand discovery in 1913. What happened was that the nation's richest men designed a system that allowed them to share the power of inflation with government. For them, unprecedented wealth. For government, the power to steal money from everyone in the nation at once without a penny in taxation. By inflating, they can steal money from your very mattress without you realizing what happened.

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Saying things to the effect of "Iran would never be able to invade the mainland USA, so they aren't a threat" isn't just crazy, it's downright dangerous.  An understanding of unconventional and asymmetric warfare is probably the single most important requirement of a Commander in Chief today...

I'm afraid he's right and you're wrong. The hypothetical "smoking gun is a mushroom cloud" scenario, while over-hyped, proves my point. Folks who push that scenario are thinking like a Hollywood movie, where the credits roll right after the big kaboom. They ignore what happens next: Tehran, and possibly all of Iran, is wiped out in an immediate nuclear counterstrike. There is no existential threat to the United States today. The threat of a terrorist attack is genuine, but (1) Bush is doing nothing to reduce the risk, and (2) such an attack will be suicide for the country that sponsors it.

And finally, nothing justifies taking away our liberties, especially not "security." Quite frankly, I'd rather lose a city than lose the freedoms that make this country worth living in.

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(Incidentally, we use bounties already; Saddam Hussein, Al Zarqawi, and ObL all have/had $25 million bounties on their heads.  Perhaps some one should inform the Paul campaign.  And if bounties are supposed to be enough to bring in ObL, where is he?)

They aren't being used as effectively as they could. Letters of marque are different than military-offered bounties.

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Ron Paul rails against the Patriot Act.  Then he complains that the nation's intelligence gathering agencies can't communicate with each other, which is the very problem that the Patriot Act addressed.

No. The USA PATRIOT act gives the agencies power to violate Americans' fourth-amendment rights. It does not simply allow the CIA to talk with the NSA and FBI. That wouldn't require an act of Congress, since all of those agencies are part of the executive branch. It just requires the President saying, "Hey, guys, share your information."

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Then he proposes abolishing the FBI, our biggest and most important investigative agency.

Since when our "biggest and most important"? Pure FUD. The founders specifically didn't want the federal government having armed agents of any sort--this was central to the origin of the second amendment. There are other ways to handle interstate investigations that don't violate the Constitution.

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That he holds these contradictory and irreconcilable views indicates to me that Ron Paul is crazy.

They're 100% consistent--that's what makes them seem so crazy: each and every one of his views is precisely that of the framers of the Constitution. In cases where the framers themselves were divided, Paul sides with Jefferson's faction. Not inconsistent; it's scarily consistent.

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Look, we've been over all this before.  I don't want to have to type all this out again and again.  It's not like y'all are going to change your minds...

... nor we yours. But there's a chance. Better dialog than, say, civil war.

--Len.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2007, 04:18:06 PM »
You seem like a smart guy, Len.  I don't think you're really as far off the mark as you sound.  I think you just need to think through some things a little more critically.

Answer these questions for me:

What affect does deflation have on the amount of investment within an economy?
What does that mean for the general prosperity of the people?

What is asymmetric warfare, and what are the implications to our national security?
What is unconventional warfare, and what are the implications to our national security?

Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2007, 05:02:47 PM »
What affect does deflation have on the amount of investment within an economy?
What does that mean for the general prosperity of the people?

That question implies an erroneous understanding of economics--namely, Keynesian. To see the logical flaw, observe that the computer industry has seen steadily falling prices despite inflation, because productivity and improvement have outpaced inflation. Try to see why that's a terrible thing for the economy. Fail.

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What is asymmetric warfare, and what are the implications to our national security?
What is unconventional warfare, and what are the implications to our national security?

Asymmetric warfare is the fashionable new name for guerrilla warfare. It's also referred to as "fourth generation" warfare, where the distinguishing characteristic is that the actors are neither national governments nor factions vying for control of the government, but instead non-governmental organizations with some other agenda. Al Qaeda is a typical example, in that it directly serves no national government, and avows the agenda of ending US intervention in all Muslim countries. (As an aside, that goal is laudable enough: the US has no business intervening around the world. It's their methods that are reprehensible.)

What makes Bush's response to Al Qaeda (and terrorism in general) ineffective is that he can't comprehend the reality of non-state actors, and insists on recasting the problem in terms of international conflict, invading first Afghanistan (which did at least harbor Al Qaeda) and then Iraq (which had nothing whatsoever to do with Al Qaeda). He doesn't comprehend that attacking some nation has minimal effect on Al Qaeda, which simply relocates. At most, the organization was temporarily inconvenienced. Bush can't "fight them over there" to avoid "fighting them over here," because they have no fixed address; there is no "there." The terrorists temporarily go quiet while they relocate and regroup. Meanwhile, Bush spends vast resources fighting people who have nothing to do with the threat, which is the best thing he could possibly do for Bin Ladin: it drains US resources, sapping our strength; it creates massive (fully justified) anger and resentment, which the terrorists can later cash in on; and it provides them protection by diverting everyone's attention elsewhere. Even Bush admitted that Bin Ladin isn't even on his radar anymore.

So while Bush is wasting our resources abroad, infringing Americans' rights at home, and busily spawning the next generation of radical terrorist, the original terrorists (remember Al Qaeda? Something about "September 11th"?) are according to Homeland Security back to pre-9/11 operational capacity. They can strike in the US at any time. The military certainly isn't in their way, since they aren't even in Iraq (never were) or Afghanistan (they've left). They can, and sooner or later will. Whatever form it takes, it will be something preventable--but we can't prevent it with Bush doing precisely the wrong thing with every resource at his disposal.

--Len.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2007, 05:17:19 PM »
As far as the "isolationism" stuff, it didn't exactly help us that much in WWI or WWII. We were caught rather flatfooted when Pearl Harbor was attacked. Fortunatly, we had an industrial system and American ingenuity to help us overcome the setbacks.

Radical Islam is a very real threat. We have been affected by it well before the September 11 attacks. Remember Iran taking our hostages?  I'm still sore about that. Remember the Beirut barracks bombings? Remember the Achille Lauro? Remember the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center?

We finally had a president that does something about it, and all everybody does is how Bush is such a failure and invaded poor, innocent little Iraq, which never harmed anybody. Of course, Saddam was just a misunderstood, hapless cuddly-wuddly man who didn't know that genocide was wrong. And there were never any WMDs, despite the fact that our invasion preparations were quite the telegraphed punch, and Saddam would have had plenty of time to move whatever he wanted out of the country.

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What makes Bush's response to Al Qaeda (and terrorism in general) ineffective is that he can't comprehend the reality of non-state actors, and insists on recasting the problem in terms of international conflict, invading first Afghanistan (which did at least harbor Al Qaeda) and then Iraq (which had nothing whatsoever to do with Al Qaeda). He doesn't comprehend that attacking some nation has minimal effect on Al Qaeda, which simply relocates. At most, the organization was temporarily inconvenienced. Bush can't "fight them over there" to avoid "fighting them over here," because they have no fixed address; there is no "there." The terrorists temporarily go quiet while they relocate and regroup. Meanwhile, Bush spends vast resources fighting people who have nothing to do with the threat, which is the best thing he could possibly do for Bin Ladin: it drains US resources, sapping our strength; it creates massive (fully justified) anger and resentment, which the terrorists can later cash in on; and it provides them protection by diverting everyone's attention elsewhere. Even Bush admitted that Bin Ladin isn't even on his radar anymore.

So while Bush is wasting our resources abroad, infringing Americans' rights at home, and busily spawning the next generation of radical terrorist, the original terrorists (remember Al Qaeda? Something about "September 11th"?) are according to Homeland Security back to pre-9/11 operational capacity. They can strike in the US at any time. The military certainly isn't in their way, since they aren't even in Iraq (never were) or Afghanistan (they've left). They can, and sooner or later will. Whatever form it takes, it will be something preventable--but we can't prevent it with Bush doing precisely the wrong thing with every resource at his disposal.

Your right. We haven't been doing enough to stop the threat. We have been far too restrained. We are supposed to have the world's best military, let's fight. We need to drop the restrained bullshit that we have practiced since Vietnam (and since Korea, to a lesser extent).









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Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2007, 05:37:15 PM »
Your right. We haven't been doing enough to stop the threat. We have been far too restrained. We are supposed to have the world's best military, let's fight. We need to drop the restrained bullshit that we have practiced since Vietnam (and since Korea, to a lesser extent).

Yep. Exterminate all Muslims, and the threat from Muslim terrorists will end. But that's the only way you'll do it: Al Qaeda isn't even in Iraq or Afghanistan. If we leave them alone and bomb the bejeebus out of Pakistan and Syria, where at least some of them no doubt are, they'll sneak off to oh, maybe Afghanistan or Iraq or somewhere. The only way to get them is to wipe out all Muslims everywhere. And I mean everywhere, because after we've depopulated the Middle East, they'll hide in Bangor and Peoria. So we'll have to nuke those cities too.

Or maybe, just maybe, we'll realize that swinging a baseball bat isn't the way to kill a fly on your window. The whole approach is wrong.

And seriously, dude, your advocacy of genocide is truly disturbing. How does one come to actually believe it's a good idea to kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out?

--Len.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2007, 05:48:00 PM »
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your advocacy of genocide

I just get really steamed when it is demanded that a US soldier be tried because he did his job. (Remember the soldier that shot a wounded terrorist because he started moving and was crucified for it by the media?)

I also see that when it the religious police send little girls back into a burning school to die because they came out without their burkas that that religion might be a tad too far gone...

They advocate genocide by wiping Israel and the Jews off the map. They advocate wiping us off the map. They advocate enslaving everyone under Islam. Excuse me, but I'm only returning the sentiment.



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Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2007, 05:57:40 PM »
Len, you've said repeatedly that Al Queda isn't in Iraq.  You are factually misinformed.  Here's one example: It's true: Iraq is a quagmire   I cite this article because I want to see you squirm.

You dodged my question about the effects of deflation on investment and the economy quite nicely.  Even if you won't answer publicly here, perhaps you'll at least think about the issue on your own.

You, a hardcore Paulista, say that Bush can't comprehend non-state aggressors.  The irony is delicious.  Somehow I doubt we'll come to terms on this point.   cheesy

As for the rest of your response, given that it's predicated on the false notion that Al Queda isn't in Iraq and never was, there really isn't much that I can respond to.  Other than, perhaps, to say that you need a reality check.  If there isn't/wasn't ever any Al Queda in Iraq in your world, then you can't possibly be living in the same world as the rest of us.

Euclidean

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2007, 08:06:27 PM »
Len, you've said repeatedly that Al Queda isn't in Iraq.  You are factually misinformed.  Here's one example: It's true: Iraq is a quagmire   I cite this article because I want to see you squirm.

All that article does is reinforce my view as to why we need to pull out of Iraq and secure our own borders.  There used to be terrorists in Iraq, I sincerely believe, and the ones who tried to actually fight the U.S. are all either dead or have fled elsewhere.  Most of the fighting against us there now is against us just because those people are always going to be fighting each other for who's in charge.  As we have to take a side, we're always going to have an enemy so long as we stay there.  That's the way those people have lived for centuries and it will not change.

This fight is not so simple that a standing army in some arbitrarily chosen Middle Eastern nation will stop the threat forever.  This is a fight which needs to involve key surgical strikes coordinated by special forces and intelligence teams, most of whom won't be doing any work we'll even know about until they accomplish their objective.  But before we can get there, we've got to get our own crap together first.  Why bother swimming around in the sand when anyone can just waltz right over our domestic borders?

The ridiculous out of control big government that people like W and Clinton want and have sponsored in the past is the #1 enemy right now.  If we don't secure our basic values on our own soil pretty damn quick it won't matter what the Hadjis do, we'll destroy ourselves.

Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2007, 03:20:50 AM »
Len, you've said repeatedly that Al Queda isn't in Iraq.  You are factually misinformed.  Here's one example: It's true: Iraq is a quagmire   I cite this article because I want to see you squirm.

Why did you think an opinion piece would make me squirm?  rolleyes

Al Qaeda in Iraq is a different organization. It has no association with Bin Ladin, and was created after 9/11. Al Zarqawi formed it to cash in on the name recognition.

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You dodged my question about the effects of deflation on investment and the economy quite nicely.

The entire question is misinformed. Decrease in prices is not deflation. "Inflation" and "deflation" refer to increases and decreases in the money supply. Changes in prices are only a symptom. How can one answer a question based on flawed premises and incorrect definitions?

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You, a hardcore Paulista, say that Bush can't comprehend non-state aggressors.  The irony is delicious.

I see your personal attack, but I don't see your point. Did you make one? What exactly is the nature of this "irony"?

--Len.
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seeker_two

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2007, 07:08:51 AM »
Invading nations is so pase'......

That's what B2's, cruise missles, and ICBM's are for.....
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Manedwolf

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2007, 07:28:26 AM »
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your advocacy of genocide

I just get really steamed when it is demanded that a US soldier be tried because he did his job. (Remember the soldier that shot a wounded terrorist because he started moving and was crucified for it by the media?)

I also see that when it the religious police send little girls back into a burning school to die because they came out without their burkas that that religion might be a tad too far gone...

They advocate genocide by wiping Israel and the Jews off the map. They advocate wiping us off the map. They advocate enslaving everyone under Islam. Excuse me, but I'm only returning the sentiment.

Or possibly sentencing a 50-something grandmotherly British schoolteacher to forty lashes (which would probably kill her) for letting seven-year-olds name a teddy bear by the world's now most common name.

Of course, the British of old would have said "Release her now, or you shall pay dearly.", but the new British just said that "The British government fully respects the faith of Islam and Britain has a longstanding tradition of religious tolerance."

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL2943933320071129

If it was up to me, I'd send in SAS or some other force to retrieve her, two bullets to the head of each of the thugs who want to whip her to death, and then break off all ties with and aid to the Sudan until they decide to become part of civilization.

But...you know. Got to tolerate intolerance, even if it's spreading like wildfire! Tolerance!

yesitsloaded

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2007, 08:27:16 AM »
Holy Crap I agree with Maned on something.  shocked
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If it was up to me, I'd send in SAS or some other force to retrieve her, two bullets to the head of each of the thugs who want to whip her to death, and then break off all ties with and aid to the Sudan until they decide to become part of civilization.
Instead of invading the whole damn country, thats a great idea. Thats exactly the way I feel about terrorism. You don't invade countries and piss off entire populations and religions, you just kill terrorists. Instead of invading Afghanistan and/ or Iraq, we could have just sent in a trained team and put a big point five zero round through Osama's head from a mile out. Watching dear leader's head explode from out of nowhere kinda sends the message not to F--- with us.
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GigaBuist

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2007, 12:31:58 PM »
Holy Crap I agree with Maned on something.  shocked
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If it was up to me, I'd send in SAS or some other force to retrieve her, two bullets to the head of each of the thugs who want to whip her to death, and then break off all ties with and aid to the Sudan until they decide to become part of civilization.
Yeah, I came here to say that too:  Holy crap I agree with Manedwolf on something!

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2007, 05:59:57 PM »
Oh god me too grin. The other nice thing about manedwolfs idea is it would be so much cheaper than this current nation building crap.

WeedWhacker

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2007, 04:04:18 AM »
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I don't care whether he wants to fight in random arbitrary nations. Until he gets a clue about asymetric warfare, or about unconventional warfare, or about modern Islamofacism, making him Commander in Chief would be serious danger to the US.

Ironically, Ron Paul is the only one (of the major candidates, that I'm aware of) that's calling the threat what it is: fundamental Islam, as opposed to "terror". Whether or not the actual root cause of jihadists was US meddling or not is rather inconsequential, because the US did meddle and the jihadists have attacked the US. Continued US meddling in other nations' affairs will only provide additional excuses for its enemies even if Ron Paul is wrong about the 'why', and if he's not wrong, then the rage of the Islamic fundamentals will be focussed on others. If other countries get zerged and have the sense to notice that a heavily armed populace isn't as succeptable to such tactics, perhaps that will ultimately be a net win for freedom in the long run.

Unconventional warfare, guerilla warfare, is only a real problem when the guerillas have a support base to hide among. Allowing the people to be armed *gasp!*, while it doesn't prevent crime outright, makes the execution of crime much, much more dangerous.

On every single matter vital to the long-term health of the United States of America, I see not a single candidate with stated goals and ideals better than Dr. Ron Paul. He's also the only *gasp* honest, principled person in the running among the "first tiers" (if you count him first tier).

I'm not sure about you, but that sure sounds like opportunity knocking to me...
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WeedWhacker

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2007, 04:14:55 AM »
I had a real problem with Ron Paul's stance of ceasing foreign aid to Israel, because if any nations needs help then a tiny nation made up of a largely hard-working, industrious people who've been persecuted and massacred in almost every country they've lived in and are even now being attacked by religious fanatics in their own tiny country surely is the nation to help!

Turns out the financial aid we're giving to Israel is only HALF that we're handing out to the sworn enemies of Israel. Ceasing all foreign giveaways would be a large net plus for Israel!

I've found that Ron Paul's stances seem all the wiser once I start learning more about them.
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Len Budney

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2007, 04:24:53 AM »
I had a real problem with Ron Paul's stance of ceasing foreign aid to Israel... Turns out the financial aid we're giving to Israel is only HALF that we're handing out to the sworn enemies of Israel. Ceasing all foreign giveaways would be a large net plus for Israel!

I had mixed feelings about that as well, and was impressed with that observation. How much credit can we take for helping Israel, when we help her enemies twice as much?

--Len.
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DBabsJr

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2007, 05:38:24 AM »
One thing about Paul that I think is overlooked is that he doesn't want to be King.  If he were elected, he says we wouldn't police the world.  He is also a staunch supporter of the Constitution and if the people decided they wanted a war when he didn't (through a Congressional declaration of war) he would be bound to fight it.

That's a huge distinction to me since most other candidates seem to want things their way while Paul seems to want things to follow the correct process whether he agrees with the outcome or not.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Ron Paul on Defense and War in Iraq
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2007, 07:37:27 AM »
Libertarians like to knock the "policing the world" thing.  This is one of the reasons I'm not a Libertarian.

The world does need to be policed.  For instance, lack of policing after the Versailles Treaty led to a second world war.  How many millions of lives could have been spared had France or Britain or the US bothered to "meddle" or "intervene" back then?  How much worse is the problem of fundamentalist Islam going to be if we leave it alone for another couple generations without intervening now?

The other vital necessity of "policing the world" is that it makes free trade possible.  Free trade is a large part of the reason why we enjoy such a fine standard of living today. The economic ramifications of shrinking the economy back to within the our own borders are downright scary.  Also, international free trade is a prime factor in making the US the world's economic superpower, and thus the world's military superpower.  Being the big kid on the block has considerable advantages.  We determine if/where/when/how the world is going to be policed, and we are the one's who will have all the advantages should another major war break out. 

It may suck to be the one who always has to fight the world's battles.  But it'd suck even more if were like, say, Canada, watching other people handle this vital task and hoping to God that they don't screw it up.  Libertarian Utopia looks great on paper, but like communism I doubt the reality would be nearly as pleasant as the theory.