Liberty Dollars seized in gov raid -- MERGED THREADS

[yesitsloaded]

Feds Raid 'Liberty Dollar' HQ in Ind.

By RYAN LENZ  1 hour ago

EVANSVILLE, Ind. (AP)  Federal agents raided the headquarters of a group that produces illegal currency and puts it in circulation, seizing gold, silver and two tons of copper coins featuring Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul.

Agents also took records, computers and froze the bank accounts at the "Liberty Dollar" headquarters during the Thursday raid, Bernard von NotHaus, founder of the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act & Internal Revenue Code, said in an interview.

The organization, which is critical of the Federal Reserve, has repeatedly clashed with the federal government, which contends that the gold, silver and copper coins it produces are illegal. NORFED claims its Liberty Dollars are inflation free and can restore stability to financial markets by allowing commerce based on a currency that does not fluctuate in value like the U.S. dollar.

"They're running scared right now and they had to do something," von NotHaus told The Associated Press Friday. "I'm volunteering to meet the agents and get arrested so we can thrash this out in court."

According to the company, NORFED has produced an estimated $20 million of its own paper currency in the past two decades, claiming its $1, $5 and $10 denominations were backed by silver stored in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.

Federal agents also raided the group's storage facilities in Idaho, von NotHaus said.

Wendy Osborne, a spokeswoman for the FBI's Indianapolis office, declined to comment and referred all questions to the U.S. attorney's office for the Western District of North Carolina. Suellen Pierce, a spokeswoman for that office, also declined to comment.

In a federal seizure warrant given to the AP by von NotHaus, federal agents allege the money and other properties seized in the raid were linked to money laundering, mail fraud and wire fraud.

The raid comes eight months after von NotHaus filed a lawsuit in federal court in Evansville seeking a permanent injunction to stop the federal government from labeling the Liberty Dollar an illegal currency.

The U.S. Mint issued a warning this year that the Liberty Dollar violated the Constitution and warned consumers against using them unsuspectingly.

Paul's campaign said it had not authorized production of the Ron Paul dollars.

"We have no connection with that," said Jesse Benton, a campaign spokesman for Paul. "He was using Ron as a marketing technique. We didn't have anything to do with that or sanction it or give permission in any way."

[v35]

a sad day for freedom.

What can you say about a government that prohibits free choice, making the essence of capitalism illegal, and forces its citizens to use worthless paper in their private transactions?

So these liberty dollars were used in money laundering. So were a lot of the bills in your pocket, and they bear traces of cocaine to prove it. Will the FBI seize that too?

[Manedwolf]

The guy who made them was asking for it. A while back, I saw this guideline he published for "using" them as legal tender:

4. Simply offer The Liberty Dollar with the confidence that it will be accepted. After all, why wouldn't it? When you offer the American Express Card, if it is not accepted, they tell you. Likewise, if the store does not accept Liberty Dollars, the cashier will tell you and you can simply pay another way.

5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

7. After 30 seconds, say, "I have US government legal tender money too [show the cashier FRN cash], but would prefer to pay with silver." If the cashier hands it back immediately, you may ask her to show the currency to the manager, or just pay some other way.

8. Never use a Silver Liberty alone unless the sale is greater than $10 and less than $20. If the total is greater than $20, include the Silver Libertys with FRNs.

SERIOUS NO-NO. That's encouraging fraud, telling people to use a coin with a metal (silver) spot value of under $15 as if it was legal tender worth $20.

And sorry, people, study your economics and Constitution. The power to mint money IS part of the federal government, and it's right there in the Constitution!

This isn't big bad government. It's a guy getting caught in his ignorance trying to make a buck. Don't think it's anything otherwise. Put away the tinfoil, and that's an airliner passing, not a black helicopter.

The U.S. Mint issued a warning this year that the Liberty Dollar violated the Constitution and warned consumers against using them unsuspectingly.

Guess what. They're correct.

What can you say about a government that prohibits free choice, making the essence of capitalism illegal, and forces its citizens to use worthless paper in their private transactions?

Okay, you're embarassing yourself there with your ignorance. You never studied this stuff, I take it.

[yesitsloaded]

The idea is sound, the actual liberty dollar company may not be. Barter is fine. Barter involving silver is fine. Pretending that it is currency is not.

[v35]

And sorry, people, study your economics and Constitution. The power to mint money IS part of the federal government, and it's right there in the Constitution!

Show me.


.... I'm still waiting....


I'll save you the time. It's not there. The Constitution says, right up there in Article I, Section 8 :

Congress shall have the power to ... coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of Foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

Coin. Not print, or mint, or whatever else you call the ever-more-worthless junk in your wallet. Coin - as in the money that existed at the time, primarily gold coins from Spain.The Framers had seen first hand the devastating effects of printing fiat money in various states during the Revolution to finance the war. What the heck does this have to do with weights and measures, so much that it's in the very same sentence? Clearly this was related to defining an ounce, or a pound, since differences in the accepted measurement would affect the coin's value. The framers knew the difference between coin and scrip.

Says http://www.dailyreckoning.com/Writers/King/Articles/MakingMoney.html"" target="_blank">someone who has researched this topic: The Framers specifically intended that money in the new republic would be based on the use of precious metals, and not on paper currency.

The U.S. Mint issued a warning this year that the Liberty Dollar violated the Constitution and warned consumers against using them unsuspectingly. ... Guess what. They're correct.

It is bad government. The Liberty Dollar was not legal tender, and NORFED never intended it to be. It was intended to be used as a private medium of exchange, the value of which was to be determined by the parties using it. No different than trading one commodity for another, and what better commodity than precious metal, universally accepted for thousands of years? NORFED paper was 100% backed by it. If two individuals choose to settle their debts in such a manner, tell me why government should have any say in it. This is the essence of capitalism, and interfering with it is bad government. Big, too. Big and bad. As for who's correct, that's for a court to decide.

Okay, you're embarassing yourself there with your ignorance. You never studied this stuff, I take it.

I kneel at your foot, O enlightened one. Surely I'm not worthy to post in your almighty presence. BTW the proper spelling is embarrassed.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

goodness i feel bad for paul being associated unwillingly with the whackjobs. its his curse sadly.
last time i checked its a crime to use someones likeness to promote without their permission doesn't sound like the lunatic fringe scam artists care much though. not very libertarian of them.

and somebody get the new guy some help with sentence stucture and vocabulary its bad when i can see how hes wrong and he can't vis a vis the proper form of the root word embarass

[Manedwolf]

V35, after that tinfoil rant and pointing to..um...questionable sources... 

Take Macroeconomics 101. Then come back and play. Mmkay?

NORFED? 

Ah, obsessive Paulians, always good for a chuckle... They're the comic relief of the Republican primary process, when they're not being annoying or getting themselves arrested while wearing "V" masks and yelling that they're being oppressed...

[v35]

and somebody get the new guy some help with sentence stucture and vocabulary its bad when i can see how hes wrong and he can't vis a vis the proper form of the root word embarass

*sigh* its embarrass

Help like yours will leave me completely illiterate; thanks anyway!

[atomd]

Man....I hope my 5 million liberty dollars are still worth their full value after this!!! 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

your welcome    doesn't make it any less amusing you correcting someone else earlier and being wrong though

[yesitsloaded]

Help Help I'm being oppressed

[Hawkmoon]

The idea is sound, the actual liberty dollar company may not be. Barter is fine. Barter involving silver is fine. Pretending that it is currency is not.

DING!

Go to the head of the class.

[Hawkmoon]

It is bad government. The Liberty Dollar was not legal tender, and NORFED never intended it to be. It was intended to be used as a private medium of exchange, the value of which was to be determined by the parties using it. No different than trading one commodity for another, and what better commodity than precious metal, universally accepted for thousands of years? NORFED paper was 100% backed by it. If two individuals choose to settle their debts in such a manner, tell me why government should have any say in it. This is the essence of capitalism, and interfering with it is bad government. Big, too. Big and bad. As for who's correct, that's for a court to decide.

NORFED knows full well that their Liberty Dollars are not legal tender, but if you read through their web site they clearly make a concerted effort to disguise the fact. And the part of their literature reproduced above, about how to "offer" the stuff as payment, makes it painfully obvious that the intent is to try to trick some not-so-bright sales drone into accepting the stuff thinking it's legal tender. They do NOT advise users to be forthright in offering the stuff and say "Nope, it's not issued by the government, but the silver in it is worth $__. Will you take it or would you rather have money?" No, they advise the user to engage in deceptive practices and deceptive language.

It's a scam, is what it is. And as to the guy "offering" to be arrested? That's another act. I don't think he has to "offer" -- I'd wager he's virtaully guaranteed to be arrested right quick. Now, when it goes down, he'll tell all his faithful minions that the government "accepted his offer to arrest him."

What a wack job.

[yesitsloaded]

You might not get your liberty dollars back, now that your metal reserve has been confiscated by the .gov, but you can contribute to the guys defense fund. What a crock. I actually like the idea of trading in specie, but not in a crooked fashion.

[Warren]

This country has a long and vibrant history of private issue money. And for almost as long the bureaucrats in charge of the official money have been crapping on private money.

They want the power that comes from issuing money and they refuse to share.

There were over 8000+ private issuers of coinage, tokens, bingles, scrip, and IOUs. Primarily in small denominations in order to make change or to advertise a business or to extol a particular candidate or issue of the day.

In addition there were private mints that for a fee would take your raw metal and make it into a coin.

The country did fine.

If we were to end the Fed monopoly of issuing currency we would do just as fine.

There would be issues to overcome as regards the person to person or business transfer of metal and verifying the value, but these are not unsolvable.

[Euclidean]

The thing is, what is precisely wrong with the NORFED products?  Let's say I print Silly Dollars on pink paper with pictures of clowns and livestock on them.  I then profess to you that 1 Silly Dollar is worth 1 ounce of jelly beans if you care to redeem it.

If people want to trade the Silly Dollars for toasters and Glocks, where's the harm?  I don't see it.

[yesitsloaded]

I think the issue at hand is whether or not the NORFED folks were trying to pass Liberty Dollars off as real currency (federal reserve notes) instead of privately made and backed silver coins and certificates.

[Euclidean]

But all the times I've seen this things advertised, they very much flout that it is NOT a FRN.  They're quite loud about it, since in their view the FRN is the devil.

[Kaylee]

The U.S. Mint issued a warning this year that the Liberty Dollar violated the Constitution and warned consumers against using them unsuspectingly.

Guess what. They're correct.

Oh, they're absolutely correct.
I'd just like to see them do the same thing to Congress.

[WeedWhacker]

I think the issue at hand is whether or not the NORFED folks were trying to pass Liberty Dollars off as real currency (federal reserve notes) instead of privately made and backed silver coins and certificates.

This is the key issue, since the rest of the charges (mail fraud, money laundering) are likely tenuous at best, akin to the excuse the gov't used to shut down and steal e-gold's gold and other assets.

The LD folks have made it quite clear that their products are a PRIVATE currency, and that the only basis for having a dollar figure on the medallions is as a "suggested trade value", which fluctuates over time because the value of the much more common fiat Federal Reserve Notes varies drastically (down 97% since 1913!). Since bad money drives out good money, having a PRIVATE currency with a face value above its melt value encourages the PRIVATE currency to circulate, rather than sit in a sock drawer.

In fact, this is not the first spat between the LD folks and the fed goons - when the US Mint released a "consumer warning" about NORFED some time ago, the LD folks released a statement denouncing the idea that LD products were "legal tender", and also that use of PRIVATE currency is not forbidden by any law. IIRC, NORFED has already preemptively sued the gov't in an attempt to obtain an injuction against further federal agencies making such statements about LDs being "illegal" or otherwise not usable by consenting parties.

This raid comes some months into that preemtive lawsuit, and all LD's stolen assets (gold, silver, etc.) were stolen under "asset forfeiture" laws, laws which are completely and utterly repugnant to the Constitution and completely bypass any pretense of "due process".

[WeedWhacker]

... can't delete my own posts, it seems.

[Sergeant Bob]

The thing is, what is precisely wrong with the NORFED products?  Let's say I print Silly Dollars on pink paper with pictures of clowns and livestock on them.  I then profess to you that 1 Silly Dollar is worth 1 ounce of jelly beans if you care to redeem it.

If people want to trade the Silly Dollars for toasters and Glocks, where's the harm?  I don't see it.

Because then, the government doesn't get their cut.  AND, why would anyone trade perfectly good jelly beans for a Glock?

[The Viking]

The thing is, what is precisely wrong with the NORFED products?  Let's say I print Silly Dollars on pink paper with pictures of clowns and livestock on them.  I then profess to you that 1 Silly Dollar is worth 1 ounce of jelly beans if you care to redeem it.

If people want to trade the Silly Dollars for toasters and Glocks, where's the harm?  I don't see it.

Because then, the government doesn't get their cut.  AND, why would anyone trade perfectly good jelly beans for a Glock?

I'd do that. Got plenty of jelly beans, but I'm seriously lacking in serious firepower.

[Manedwolf]

The thing is, what is precisely wrong with the NORFED products?  Let's say I print Silly Dollars on pink paper with pictures of clowns and livestock on them.  I then profess to you that 1 Silly Dollar is worth 1 ounce of jelly beans if you care to redeem it.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Ever notice that when you get a coin from an amusement park or the like, it says, as part of the stamping, "non-negotiable", "not legal tender", or "no monetary value"? That's the law.

If these said "20 credits", "20 peanuts", or "20 illuminati favors", they'd be fine. But they didn't.



They say USA and "twenty dollars", with no disclaimer. Thus, way over the line into illegality as a false currency attempted to be passed off as legal tender. The evidence is right there, both the "twenty dollars" and US Dollar sign $ coupled with USA. And no statement that it is not a currency with monetary value. This is a clear-cut case when it hits the court, the guy's not going to get anything back. He was a fool who was either ignorant of the law or perhaps chose to ignore it.

[yesitsloaded]

It doesn't claim anywhere on it to be legal tender, for all debts public or private. The .gov hates it because if you barter, instead of pay with currency, you have no cash flow and do not have to pay sales or income tax. I trade you a cow for a shotgun, we both get what we want, but there is not sales tax or income tax as neither of us have made or lost money. In a barter system the value is set by the want of the product.