Liberty Dollars seized in gov raid -- MERGED THREADS

[Brad Johnson]

and somebody get the new guy some help with sentence stucture and vocabulary its bad when i can see how hes wrong and he can't vis a vis the proper form of the root word embarass

*sigh* its embarrass

Help like yours will leave me completely illiterate; thanks anyway!

Hey v35...

You realize that your smarmy retort contains both a misspelled word and a blatant grammar error, right?  

*snicker*

Brad

[WeedWhacker]

Ignorance of the law is no excuse

Quite a misquoted phrase, to infer that all laws are so obvious as to be known by everyone, which is blatantly false.

That phrase applies only to natural law, such as murder, theft, assault, and the like.

[Manedwolf]

Ignorance of the law is no excuse

Quite a misquoted phrase, to infer that all laws are so obvious as to be known by everyone, which is blatantly false.

That phrase applies only to natural law, such as murder, theft, assault, and the like.

Um...

If you mint and distribute currency without knowing the applicable laws, sorry, but you're a moron. 

[Euclidean]

Even then Manedwolf, what you're basically saying is NORFED is guilty until proven innocent.

For NORFED to have committed a crime, there has to be specific proof they were clearly intending passing Liberty Dollars as US currency.  The burden of proof is on the state to prove guilty not NORFED to prove they were doing nothing wrong.  Your argument against them is like saying that because my Glock doesn't say "Don't murder people with this handgun" on it somewhere, Glock's responsible for any murders committed with the handgun.

Quite frankly I suspect what the Mint is doing here is motivated by politics and not any legal issue of substance.  Yeah a good disclaimer would have been a great CYA policy on NORFED's part, which is why they're in this mess, but NORFED has substantial evidence they haven't done the very thing they're accused of.

I don't think Liberty Dollars really accomplish the goals they purport to, but I don't see what's illegal about them.  What I see here is "We don't agree with your politics so we're going to take you out".

Oh, and while they're at it apparently they get to take some precious metals.  Gee, how convenient.  Eliminating a political enemy and taking the spoils all at once is something only the government could ever hope to get away with.

[CAnnoneer]

No, Euclidean. If Paulians decide that certain laws do not pertain to them, so they break them, then they should be men enough to face the music rather than whine like bitches and pretend they did not do it. Hiding behind some technicalities and trying to weasel their way out of counterfeit and fraud is the behavior of a caught criminal, not a political activist wanting to make a principled stand.

I was divided on the subject until I saw the coin. It has the dollar sign on it. It is an open-and-shut case. These jokers will spend a long time in federal prison, having accomplished nothing other than subsidize the state with the confiscated precious metals.

Along more general lines, if these guys truly believe the country is gone to hell, they should pick up rifles and march on Washington. But it is easier and safer to play with coins and be coy about it. Bleh. They turn my stomach.

[Euclidean]

This has nothing to do with Ron Paul other than NORFED put his face on the coin.  Who cares?  Might as well put a picture of the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man on there, as it's of no substance to the legal issue at hand.

Those "technicalities" like having to prove the crime beyond a reasonable doubt is the cornerstone of our justice system.  Look I get mad too when some scumbag walks because some cop didn't record a key piece of evidence properly, but we can't be selective and only excuse parties we're sympathetic too.  The rules have to apply the same to everybody.

So what if it has the dollar sign on it?  Does the US government have exclusive rights to the dollar sign?  Here try this.  Highlight this next line of text and print it out.

$5 five dollars USA In God We Trust

That's exactly what NORFED is doing.  If you just printed that line of text, you have committed the same "crime" they have.  They're making silly little tokens and coupons with words like that written on them.  Sure they look cooler than that little slip of paper and they have pictures and whatnot on them too, but just as I'm not responsible for someone being dumb enough to accept or try to use that slip of paper you just made as five dollar FRN, neither are they responsible for such a use of their product either.

Similarly, if someone consents to treat that slip of paper as being worth the same as five dollar FRN, that's between you and them.  It's nothing more than barter.

For a crime to have occurred here the US Government needs to prove that the allegation is true beyond the shadow of a doubt.  I personally doubt that NORFED did any such thing.  What I do see here is "Well I don't like Ron Paul and I don't like the political opinions of these NORFED people so let's get 'em."

Along more general lines, if these guys truly believe the country is gone to hell, they should pick up rifles and march on Washington. But it is easier and safer to play with coins and be coy about it. Bleh. They turn my stomach.

It must be nice to not have a family or any competing moral obligations in your life such that you can immediately resort to shooting people as your first course of action.

[Manedwolf]

So what if it has the dollar sign on it?  Does the US government have exclusive rights to the dollar sign?

YES, IN FACT, THEY DO.

Will you people PLEASE read the goddamned laws, instead of just babbling that they don't exist, because you never read them?

In fact, early in the 20th century, this guy would have been already locked up for life for counterfeiting. Earlier than that, past century, he might have been already dropped on a rope. The laws are that old!

Educate yourself before opening your mouth! Jesus christ! 

[Hawkmoon]

For NORFED to have committed a crime, there has to be specific proof they were clearly intending passing Liberty Dollars as US currency.  The burden of proof is on the state to prove guilty not NORFED to prove they were doing nothing wrong.

But that's exactly what they are doing, but they're being sneaky about it. Did you read the "instructions" on how to use liberty dollars?

4. Simply offer The Liberty Dollar with the confidence that it will be accepted. After all, why wouldn't it? When you offer the American Express Card, if it is not accepted, they tell you. Likewise, if the store does not accept Liberty Dollars, the cashier will tell you and you can simply pay another way.

5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

7. After 30 seconds, say, "I have US government legal tender money too [show the cashier FRN cash], but would prefer to pay with silver." If the cashier hands it back immediately, you may ask her to show the currency to the manager, or just pay some other way.

8. Never use a Silver Liberty alone unless the sale is greater than $10 and less than $20. If the total is greater than $20, include the Silver Libertys with FRNs.

Did you see another, recent thread discussing a young man who was (IIRC) arrested for trying to pass libery dollars off as currency? Apparently he forgot to memorize the script, or else the clerk didn't hear the cue, because somewhere in that transaction the 'Is it real?" scene didn't get played out.

Are you so naive that you don't believe this whole "drop it in their hand" bit is geared to taking advantage of the functional illiterates behind 95 percent of the cash registers in the country today? I mean, come on -- the cash registers HAVE to calculate the change, because the people behind them sure can't. Just today, I had a charge of $7.23. I handed the clerk a $10 bill, two dimes and three pennies. She opened up the drawer and started scooping up coins, then she looked at the display and saw that my change came to exactly $3.00. All movement, all activity, stopped. She must have stared at it for at least a full minute, and it was obvious that she absolutely, positively had no idea how I managed to make it come out to an even number of dollars for change.

Do you honestly think if you handed this mental giant a shiny silver coin that says "$20" on it that she would even stop to ask "Is it real"? I don't think so -- and I believe that's exactly what the liberty dollar folks are counting on.

[yesitsloaded]

But is it their fault that those people are dumb as a brick? It isn't counterfeit US money.

[Manedwolf]

But is it their fault that those people are dumb as a brick? It isn't counterfeit US money.

Yes, it is.

If you make a bad turn and run into a police car because you don't know how to drive, whose fault is it?

[yesitsloaded]

MY point exactly. It isn't the car makers.

[Manedwolf]

No, you killed the metaphor.

[Warren]

No, you killed the metaphor.

But he did not kill the simile........

[CAnnoneer]

It must be nice to not have a family or any competing moral obligations in your life such that you can immediately resort to shooting people as your first course of action.

Right. Because all the revolutionaries throughout world history never had any family or obligations. 

I'll try to pretend you never said that.

[LAK]

While certain private corporations are robbing our public purse - and fleecing us as individuals - the dogs have been unleashed on these enterprizing people....

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/raidday1.htm

FBI Raids Liberty Dollar

[see links on webpage]

Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:

I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8:00 this morning a dozen FBI and
Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville.

For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the
platinum and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that where just delivered last
Friday. They also took all the files, all the computers and froze our bank
accounts.

We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was
ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push forward and
overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as
defined by the US Constitution. We should not to be defrauded by the fake
government money.

But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper
certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also
been confiscated. Even the dies for mint the Gold and Silver Libertys have been
taken.

This in spite of the fact that Edmond C. Moy, the Director of the Mint,
acknowledged in a letter to a US Senator that the paper certificates did not
violate Section 486 and were not illegal. But the FBI and Services took all the
paper currency too.

The possibility of such action was the reason the Liberty Dollar was designed so
that the vast majority of the money was in specie form and in the peoples
hands. Of the $20 million Liberty Dollars, only about a million is in paper or
digital form.

I regret that if you are due an order. It may be some time until it will be
filled... if ever... it now all depends on our actions.

Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency should
band together for a class action suit and demand redemption. We cannot allow the
government to steal our money! Please dont let this happen!!! Many of you read
the articles quoting the government and Federal Reserve officials that the
Liberty Dollar was legal. You did nothing wrong. You are legally entitled to
your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our
goal  to return America to a value based currency.

Please forward this important Alert... so everyone who possess or use the
Liberty Dollar is aware of the situation.

Please click HERE to sign
up for the class action lawsuit and get your property back!

If the above link does not work you can access the page by copying the following
into your web browser. http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction/index.php

Thanks again for your support at this darkest time as the damn government and
their dollar sinks to a new low.

Bernard von NotHaus

Monetary Architect

---------------------------

http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[WeedWhacker]

So what if it has the dollar sign on it?  Does the US government have exclusive rights to the dollar sign?

YES, IN FACT, THEY DO.

Will you people PLEASE read the laws, instead of just babbling that they don't exist, because you never read them?

In fact, early in the 20th century, this guy would have been already locked up for life for counterfeiting. Earlier than that, past century, he might have been already dropped on a rope. The laws are that old!

Educate yourself before opening your mouth!

Guess we should expect Disney to be raided any day now, then, since they also apparently use the "$" sign in reference to their private currency...

http://www.perry.com/disney/money/money.html

Either there is no law, or it is being applied unequally. No one has a problem with that?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

do you really not se the difference? or just pretend?
if you really don't you serve as an example of why the revolution is still born

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

too bad paul wants nothin to do with the nuts who put his picture on the money and even further helped to cast him as part of the lunatic fringe.

how much "specie" are you holding?  you do put your money where your mouth is.... right?

[K Frame]

Moved to Politics and merged with a thread there.

[HankB]

Since Disney puts "Disney Dollar" on their play money . . . it seems to me that putting "Liberty Dollar" on a coin is not counterfeiting, (i.e., making an illicit imitation) since no current or historic US coin has the same design as the coins being minted here; it's hard for me to see imitation of something that doesn't exist.

Numerous other countries, from Australia to Zimbabwe, put "Dollar" on their money, too . . . is possession of foreign "Dollars" illegal?

My guess is that where the Liberty Dollar folks really run afoul of the law is by putting "USA" at the bottom of the coin's reverse; THAT implies that it's US currency, and  arguing that it's simply a "country of origin" marking probably won't hold water.

So what if it has the dollar sign on it?  Does the US government have exclusive rights to the dollar sign?

YES, IN FACT, THEY DO.

Will you people PLEASE read the goddamned laws, instead of just babbling that they don't exist, because you never read them?

Hmmm . . . I know when I was a youngster I had play money that included the $ sign, and I don't recall any toy manufacturer being raided . . . please help educate us by citing the law that specifically gives .gov exclusive rights to sole use of the "$" sign.

[K Frame]

I'd think that the problem there is the fact that the word Liberty is on all US coins (I THINK it's on all US coins, I have a quarter, nickle and penny in my pocket).

The word Disney isn't.

[HankB]

Mike,

The new circulating presidential $1 coins do not include the word "Liberty." "In God We Trust" and "E Pluribus Unum" along with the year minted have been relegated to the edge.

I believe there are only four words required to be on all US currency: United States of America

[K Frame]

"The new circulating presidential $1 coins do not include the word "Liberty."

Yes, I know.

That negates the fact that the word Liberty has been on other US coils since at least 1910 how?

Once again, it's a guess here as to what the rational was, but I could certainly see the use of the word Liberty as being a motivator for the gov't's actions.

[Harold Tuttle]

i wonder what these coins will be worth in about 50 years on the coin market

they seem to be hitting a peak this week:
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=liberty+dollar+ron+paul&category0=

[Manedwolf]

So what if it has the dollar sign on it?  Does the US government have exclusive rights to the dollar sign?

YES, IN FACT, THEY DO.

Will you people PLEASE read the laws, instead of just babbling that they don't exist, because you never read them?

In fact, early in the 20th century, this guy would have been already locked up for life for counterfeiting. Earlier than that, past century, he might have been already dropped on a rope. The laws are that old!

Educate yourself before opening your mouth!

Guess we should expect Disney to be raided any day now, then, since they also apparently use the "$" sign in reference to their private currency...

http://www.perry.com/disney/money/money.html

Either there is no law, or it is being applied unequally. No one has a problem with that?

Do you see the FINE PRINT on those notes that clearly state that it's not a legal currency?

Do you see a $ sign anywhere on it?

It's gotten to the point that when your sort gets nailed on something after babbling "show me the law, there is no law", when, in fact, there is, and you've just not read it...I just point and laugh.

Your standpoint is utterly ridiculous, and a bizarre mix of fringe anarchism coupled with willful ignorance.