Author Topic: More worrying comments from Chavez  (Read 26682 times)

Len Budney

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #100 on: November 30, 2007, 08:48:24 AM »
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They've been robbed of millions of dollars

"robbed"

"Expropriated without their consent, upon threat of imprisonment."

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Sweden, Canada--practically every nation in the world is "democratic" by your definition.

Given that each is a parliamentary democracy... um, yeah.

And thus the world's "democracies" contradict your theory that "democracy" tends to protect freedom. I'd rather live under a monarch devoted to protecting freedom than under, say, the socialist Swedish "democracy."

--Len.
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wooderson

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #101 on: November 30, 2007, 09:09:44 AM »
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And thus the world's "democracies" contradict your theory that "democracy" tends to protect freedom.
Yes, Sweden is noticeably less "free" than such noted non-democratic states as...

uh...

gimme a sec...

nope, I got nothin'.

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I'd rather live under a monarch devoted to protecting freedom than under, say, the socialist Swedish "democracy."
And I'd like to marry a mermaid and live under the sea.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Len Budney

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #102 on: November 30, 2007, 09:28:00 AM »
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And thus the world's "democracies" contradict your theory that "democracy" tends to protect freedom.

Yes, Sweden is noticeably less "free" than such noted non-democratic states as... nope, I got nothin'.

You need to get out more. Liechtenstein beats the pants off Sweden. But your demand isn't entirely fair, though, since pretty much the entire western world is "democratic" these days. So the choice is between democracies, all of which basically suck--and (more than just titular) monarchies, few of which exist anymore.

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wooderson

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #103 on: November 30, 2007, 09:44:41 AM »
Um, Lichtenstein is also a parliamentary democracy with some authority vested in the monarchy.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Len Budney

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #104 on: November 30, 2007, 09:48:42 AM »
Um, Lichtenstein is also a parliamentary democracy with some authority vested in the monarchy.

There is no autocracy left in the universe. Thus reinforcing my point.

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wooderson

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #105 on: November 30, 2007, 10:00:09 AM »
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There is no autocracy left in the universe. Thus reinforcing my point.
There is no 'autocracy' left in the democratic west, at least. We got together and decided that letting everyone have input on the way the state is run (or at least pretending that's the case) is a better deal than hoping our kings and priests have our best interests at heart.

But your point, then, seems to be that you have zero examples in which leadership-from-on-high 'protects freedom' to a greater degree than modern democracy.

Huh. I think I might have noted that at some point.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Len Budney

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #106 on: November 30, 2007, 10:02:00 AM »
But your point, then, seems to be that you have zero examples in which leadership-from-on-high 'protects freedom' to a greater degree than modern democracy.

Which doesn't change the fact that "modern democracy" does a notably poor job of protecting freedom, which makes the debate somewhat moot. You're trying to prove that "terrible" is the best we can do?

--Len.
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wooderson

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #107 on: November 30, 2007, 10:15:10 AM »
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You're trying to prove that "terrible" is the best we can do?
There's really not much room for discussion if you're just going to say "yeah, well, fine, whatever IT'S STILL TERRIBLE."

The questions, way back yonder, were about the value of democracy and how it might compare to certain individuals' idealized autocracies (and where we might find these states). Not "is democracy perfect" or anything of the sort.

I think you have to go this route because it's all but impossible to argue that any non-democratic state has been superior in the 'liberty and freedom' race to a contemporary democratic state.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Len Budney

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #108 on: November 30, 2007, 10:17:39 AM »
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You're trying to prove that "terrible" is the best we can do?

There's really not much room for discussion if you're just going to say "yeah, well, fine, whatever IT'S STILL TERRIBLE."

The upshot is that anarcho-capitalism is better than ALL the alternatives, including democracy. Illusions concerning the value of democracy for preserving liberty inhibits awareness of the need for a change.

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The questions, way back yonder, were about the value of democracy and how it might compare to certain individuals' idealized autocracies (and where we might find these states). Not "is democracy perfect" or anything of the sort.

I look forward to the self-contradiction in which you argue that anarcho-capitalism isn't perfect.   grin

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wooderson

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #109 on: November 30, 2007, 10:39:06 AM »
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The upshot is that anarcho-capitalism is better than ALL the alternatives, including democracy.

If you want to call anarcho-capitalism un-democratic, feel free. But I see no reason to argue that the two concepts are incompatible.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Len Budney

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #110 on: November 30, 2007, 10:41:23 AM »
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The upshot is that anarcho-capitalism is better than ALL the alternatives, including democracy.

If you want to call anarcho-capitalism un-democratic, feel free. But I see no reason to argue that the two concepts are incompatible.

The problem is that you're going to confuse the hell out of people saying, "I support democracy, which is why we should shut down the government entirely." When one word means everything, it means nothing.

--Len.
In a cannibal society, vegetarians arouse suspicion.

wooderson

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #111 on: November 30, 2007, 10:45:29 AM »
I've seen no suggestion that the "one word" in question means "everything" - the working definition is both broad and specific. A democratic society is one in which power is vested in the people.

Whether that comes in the form of elected intermediaries, direct input from the citizenry, a combination of the two, etc. etc. etc. - doesn't color the basic idea.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Len Budney

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #112 on: November 30, 2007, 10:54:58 AM »
I've seen no suggestion that the "one word" in question means "everything" - the working definition is both broad and specific. A democratic society is one in which [SOME] power is vested in the people.

That includes Russia and Nazi Germany. It includes every nation in history except an honest-to-goodness full-blown autocracy.

--Len.
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wooderson

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #113 on: November 30, 2007, 11:50:51 AM »
Ultimate power then, if you want to try to play semantics.

But once again, you're going to have a helluva time finding the democratic workings of Nazi Germany or the USSR, or North Korea, or any similar state. But you're going to keep trotting out those particular canards because you can't think of another way to bash democracy - all because you can't really locate any meaningful examples of 'free' non-democratic societies.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

grampster

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #114 on: November 30, 2007, 11:57:00 AM »
Meanwhile, today, the NY Times reported that the upcoming election in Venezuela will not be observed from OAS or the EU as was done in the last election.  "Chavez is delirious if he thinks we're going to follow him like sheep" this from a Chavez supporter in a district that always supported him.  She went on to say "If this govenment cannot get me milk or asphalt for our roads, how is it going to give my mother a pension?"  Looks like the "po folk" are not as dumb as Chavez thinks.  The opposition.. "say opinion polls show they will prevail."

Cough, ahem.  I predict a landslide by Chavez the Southern Hemisphere's great humanitarian democratic socialist.   
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Len Budney

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #115 on: November 30, 2007, 12:02:20 PM »
Ultimate power then, if you want to try to play semantics.

ULTIMATE power? Now the US isn't a democracy either.  laugh

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But once again, you're going to have a helluva time finding the democratic workings of Nazi Germany...

Excuse me? The democratic institutions of Germany were kept in place throughout the third Reich. Sure, Hitler had emergency war powers, but then again we have the same provisions for our President in this country. When some President activates them, will we suddenly not be a democracy anymore? Pah.

--Len.
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Len Budney

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #116 on: November 30, 2007, 12:03:32 PM »
She went on to say "If this govenment cannot get me milk or asphalt for our roads, how is it going to give my mother a pension?"

What's scary is that she expects government to give her those things.
In a cannibal society, vegetarians arouse suspicion.

grampster

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #117 on: November 30, 2007, 12:13:52 PM »
Exactly my thoughts when I read the Times article.  Actually, it's sort of funny.  Chavez, the modern day Castro/Marxist gets thrown out of office or assassinated because he can't give the peasants enough free stuff.  Heh.  He's pissed off the rich and the poor.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

wooderson

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #118 on: November 30, 2007, 01:18:39 PM »
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ULTIMATE power? Now the US isn't a democracy either. 
Of course it is. Ultimate power rests with the people of the United States. It does not reside in the courts or in caselaw, it does not reside in the Constitution or Bill of Rights (which can be amended by the people), it does not reside in Congress (who can be thrown out by the people), it does not exist in fictions like 'natural law.'

On a day to day basis the people exert a good deal of control, and the workings are in place for them to exert far, far more if they so chose.

There is no higher authority in the good old US of A than the people themselves. We have no kings, no high priests, no religious pamphlets to decide for us.

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The democratic institutions of Germany were kept in place throughout the third Reich.
No, in fact, they weren't.
All opposition parties were outlawed. Left-wing opposition was jailed (and later executed). (this, of course, mirrors other one-party states)

Now, how can the power of the state rest with the people - when they aren't in control of their government?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

doczinn

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #119 on: November 30, 2007, 04:01:18 PM »
Just to pull this back in the direction of the original topic:

http://www.vcrisis.com/
http://daniel-venezuela.blogspot.com/2007/11/one-more-last-poll.html
D. R. ZINN

Gewehr98

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #120 on: December 01, 2007, 12:41:57 PM »
Speaking of the (ahem) original topic...

Our red-shirted friend is at it again.  This, and the resulting speculative jump in crude prices, should come as no surprise:

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CARACAS, Venezuela (CNN) -- President Hugo Chavez on Friday wrapped up his campaign to push through broad constitutional changes with a broadside attack against adversaries at home and abroad -- including a threat to cut off oil exports to the United States.

Chavez told a crowd gathered in the center of Caracas that if the referendum was approved and the result was questioned -- "if the 'yes' vote wins on Sunday and the Venezuelan oligarchy, playing the [U.S.] empire's game, comes with their little stories of fraud" -- then he would order oil shipments to the United States halted Monday.

Chavez spoke after tens of thousands, brought on buses from throughout the country, marched down the capital's principal boulevard to rally support for Sunday's referendum, which would free Chavez from term-limit restrictions and move the country toward institutionalized socialism.

Friday's rally acted as a counterpoint to an opposition march down the same streets Thursday that brought out tens of thousands who fear the 69 constitutional changes would serve to undermine basic democratic freedoms.

Chavez, 53, warmed the crowd up by serenading them with holiday "gaitas" and other traditional songs before turning his attention to a litany of enemies and perceived enemies: internal critics, the United States, Spain's King Juan Carlos, Colombia's President Alvaro Uribe and domestic and international media.

"We're not really confronting those peons of imperialism," Chavez said, alluding to his Venezuelan opponents. "Our true enemy is called the North American empire, and ... we're going to give another knockout to Bush."

He renewed his harsh criticisms of Juan Carlos and Uribe, with whom he has had recent high-profile disputes, and threatened to take independent Venezuela television network Globovision off the air if it broadcast partial results during the voting. He also threatened to take action against international networks, accusing CNN in particular of overstating the strength of the opposition's numbers.

"If any international channel comes here to take part in an operation from the imperialist against Venezuela, your reporters will be thrown out of the country, they will not be able to work here," Chavez said. "People at CNN, listen carefully: This is just a warning."

At stake in Sunday's vote is whether the leftist leader should have full authority over the now autonomous Central Bank and with it the nation's economic policy, changes Chavez has said he needs to move the economy further toward socialism.

The most controversial amendment would do away with term limits, allowing Chavez, who has served almost eight years in power, to hold his post indefinitely as long as he is re-elected.

Chavez, a former paratrooper, said the majority of the country's 26 million people back him. He has garnered overwhelming support from the country's poorer neighborhoods, who have benefited from his policies -- paid for by skyrocketing oil prices. Oil accounts for roughly 90 percent of the country's export earnings, according to the CIA World Factbook.

Despite the animosity that Chavez routinely aims at the United States, the two countries remain closely tied economically -- the United States is Venezuela's biggest oil customer and one of the few countries that can refine its low-quality crude. Venezuela accounts for up to 15 percent of U.S. crude imports.
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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Scout26

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #121 on: December 01, 2007, 04:35:00 PM »
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including a threat to cut off oil exports to the United States.

Let's open up ANWR and every other place we know or suspect might have oil in the US to drilling, including off-shore and then tell this tin-horn dictator to take his oil and go piss up a rope.  Oh and while your at it, No more refined products from us.  Find someone else to do it for you, A-hole.  angry

We'll see how long the people continue to support him once the money gets shut off and he can no longer buy their "love".

Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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Put our backs to the north wind.
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Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

doczinn

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #122 on: December 02, 2007, 06:25:03 AM »
http://daniel-venezuela.blogspot.com/2007/12/unacceptable-result.html

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It does not matter if the result tomorrow is 90% SI and that I am given access to everything that will prove to me without the shade of a doubt that the Venezuelan people voted massively for the SI. I still will not accept it. I cannot accept that my life will be forever subjected to the whimsy of a now certifiable man, I cannot accept that some of my basic human rights such as my right to be informed at all time, the right to own my home and business, my right to work in any morally acceptable pursuit, my right to seek redress for injustice, my right to organize people to seek referendum for changing the opprobrious, my right to have a local ruler elected by my community at all times, my right to keep my private life away from the queries of a militia, and more rights that I still do not know of will be diminished when not eliminated.

I will not accept and even less recognize as legitimate such a vote result because voting on such things is profoundly undemocratic. In fact, it is ademocratic, a word that needs to be coined for the occasion. All those who support such result are themselves ademocrat, and probably amoral. They should get ready for the consequences of their actions as bloodshed always follows such exercises in rights restriction. It is just a matter of time. Grab any history book to find the examples you need to get convinced of my words.
D. R. ZINN

roo_ster

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #123 on: December 02, 2007, 07:28:17 AM »
Yeah, but Chavez is a leftist thug and as such, his bloodletting is righteous in the way a right-wing thug can never be.
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roo_ster

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Scout26

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #124 on: December 02, 2007, 11:44:22 AM »
Imagine the hue and cry if GWB tried to make the same consititutional "changes" that Chavez is pushing.

I think the left would be out in the streets with torches, pitchforks and GUNS.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.