"Homegrown Terrorism"

[Paddy]

Look what's working its way through Congress.

Summary:

H.R. 1955: Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007
To prevent homegrown terrorism, and for other purposes.
4/19/2007--Introduced.

Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007 - Amends the Homeland Security Act of 2002 to add provisions concerning the prevention of homegrown terrorism (terrorism by individuals born, raised, or based and operating primarily in the United States).

Directs the Secretary of Homeland Security to: (1) establish a grant program to prevent radicalization (use of an extremist belief system for facilitating ideologically-based violence) and homegrown terrorism in the United States; (2) establish or designate a university-based Center of Excellence for the Study of Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism in the United States; and (3) conduct a survey of methodologies implemented by foreign nations to prevent radicalization and homegrown terrorism.

Prohibits the Department of Homeland Security's efforts to prevent ideologically-based violence and homegrown terrorism from violating the constitutional and civil rights, and civil liberties, of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents.

Full text:

H.R. 1955: Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007

As far as I can tell, it doesn't do anything except set up an advisory committee.  Nonetheless, the language is disturbing.  And, it's already passed the House.

[Manedwolf]

I don't see a problem.

Look at the UK. A lot of the homegrown sorts there started as young Muslim males who got brainwashed by a violent imam in a radical mosque, then went to Pakistan and trained, came back and blew stuff up or tried to.

That chain of events needs to be broken before it can be completed, here.

Not like the government will be overly effective at it, since committee meetings by outdated men with outdated briefcases and outdated ideas won't do much to stop radical imams from radicalizing impressionable young Muslims, but it is a need.

[Paddy]

Why do you assume that it's directed at/limited to, Muslim terrorism?  It doesn't say that.

[Manedwolf]

Nope, it doesn't. But that's the most prominent threat at present. There's anti-government anarchist groups, sure, but they're a much, much smaller threat. Muslim radicals are an exponentially greater threat.

Also, included in the bill is this line, which you didn't mention:

Any measure taken to prevent violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence and homegrown terrorism in the United States should not violate the constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of United States citizens or lawful permanent residents.

But this is why it won't work, it also includes this line:

Certain governments, including the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia have significant experience with homegrown terrorism and the United States can benefit from lessons learned by those nations.

Right, then. So, listen to the UK, which appeases non-assimilating violent groups within at every opportunity and disarmed its citizens, Canada, which actually debated allowing Sharia law and can't even keep the Russian mafia from nearly running Toronto, now, and Australia, which disarmed its citizens and has "homegrown" sorts calling women "whores" and attacking them for "dressing immodestly".

Yeah, that's good people to listen to.

[Paddy]

Also, included in the bill is this line, which you didn't mention:

Quote
Any measure taken to prevent violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence and homegrown terrorism in the United States should not violate the constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of United States citizens or lawful permanent residents.

Well, that's a relief.  Certainly nothing in the Patriot Act(s) so far have violated any constitutional or civil rights and liberties.

[Manedwolf]

And you think this:

The Secretary of Homeland Security shall establish or designate a university-based Center of Excellence for the Study of Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism in the United States

will be a threat to your civil liberties?

It's just a taxpayer-funded excuse to have a nicely-appointed office and expensive lunches. There's a need, but this is just big-government navel-gazing by some people who will discuss nothing and do nothing.

[Paddy]

The only 'homegrown terrorism' we need to fear has been launched by our own government.  It is evidenced by record public debt, the systematic dismantling of the middle class, the transfer of public funds to private pockets, the theft of social security funds by every President since Reagan, the treasonous surrender of our sovereignty through WTO, NAFTA and other trade 'agreements', the collapse of the dollar, and the list goes on and on.   

This 'bill' is just a smokescreen and further powergrab.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

"The only 'homegrown terrorism' we need to fear has been launched by our own government. "
really?  you missed a couple news items last decade or so

[Finch]

Nope, it doesn't. But that's the most prominent threat at present.

But that is how it starts. The Patriot act was sold to us on the basis that it was needed to fight terrorism. But just recently it was used to shut down a strip club here in Vegas (among hundereds of thousands of other misues). I got lost trying to connect the dots. While this bill seems rather harmless in it's current state, we do need to be extra cautious in watching congress nowadays.

[Len Budney]

Nope, it doesn't. But that's the most prominent threat at present.

Agreed. Until Hillary's inauguration, when armed Americans who blabber about the Constitution, limited government, etc., are deemed the "most prominent threat" of the time. Recall the demonization of all "militias" under President Bubba?

Giving government the power to destroy your liberty--in this case, by punishing thoughtcrime--while trusting them only to use it in ways you approve, is suicidal. The whole premise behind limited government is that, like fire, government is a dangerous servant and a terrifying master.

--Len.

[Sergeant Bob]

And you think this:

The Secretary of Homeland Security shall establish or designate a university-based Center of Excellence for the Study of Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism in the United States

will be a threat to your civil liberties?

It's just a taxpayer-funded excuse to have a nicely-appointed office and expensive lunches. There's a need, but this is just big-government navel-gazing by some people who will discuss nothing and do nothing.

Having read the bill, thats exactly what it looks like to me.
A bunch of bloviating and posturing to make it appear that they care, while creating a new way to spend money and give friends lucrative careers.

[Perd Hapley]

Also, included in the bill is this line, which you didn't mention:

Quote
Any measure taken to prevent violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence and homegrown terrorism in the United States should not violate the constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of United States citizens or lawful permanent residents.

Well, that's a relief.  Certainly nothing in the Patriot Act(s) so far have violated any constitutional or civil rights and liberties.

Don't let Riley get away with that.  When you challenge him, he changes the subject over to the Patriot Act, the Iraq war, or some other barely-related item. 

[MechAg94]

It's just a taxpayer-funded excuse to have a nicely-appointed office and expensive lunches. There's a need, but this is just big-government navel-gazing by some people who will discuss nothing and do nothing.

Come on, they will discuss stuff.  After all, who do you think all the news shows will use when they need an expert on terrorism.  They will call these guys!!  I doubt they will elevate the discourse much though. 

[Manedwolf]

Also, included in the bill is this line, which you didn't mention:

Quote
Any measure taken to prevent violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence and homegrown terrorism in the United States should not violate the constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of United States citizens or lawful permanent residents.

Well, that's a relief.  Certainly nothing in the Patriot Act(s) so far have violated any constitutional or civil rights and liberties.

Don't let Riley get away with that.  When you challenge him, he changes the subject over to the Patriot Act, the Iraq war, or some other barely-related item. 

Well, that's rather transparent, I thought, yes.

It's sort of like:

"Pie is bad."
"No, pie is not bad. Pie can be very good. Here's citations as to why."
"...But cake has caused all sorts of issues!"

[Paddy]

So, according to fistful and Manedwolf, nothing in the Patriot Acts has violated any constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of United States citizens or lawful permanent residents?

Is that what you're saying?

[yesitsloaded]

Crazy guys with guns that seem to believe that some deity gave them the right to own them and the Constitution merely recognizes that right? They even believe that when the government no longer serves them it must be taken down hard? They must be terrorists. Quick call out the army, navy, and the Brady Campaign

[Manedwolf]

So, according to fistful and Manedwolf, nothing in the Patriot Acts has violated any constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of United States citizens or lawful permanent residents?

Is that what you're saying?

Why are you trying to change this thread to the Patriot Act? Your original post was about H.R. 1955. Do you realize you've lost that argument, that why? 

[De Selby]

Right, then. So, listen to the UK, which appeases non-assimilating violent groups within at every opportunity and disarmed its citizens, Canada, which actually debated allowing Sharia law and can't even keep the Russian mafia from nearly running Toronto, now, and Australia, which disarmed its citizens and has "homegrown" sorts calling women "whores" and attacking them for "dressing immodestly".

Yeah, that's good people to listen to.

In what way does the UK "appease violent groups"?  Do you have any specific examples of "appeasing violence" in modern times?  I can think of only one: granting the IRA everything it asked for in the political process in Northern Ireland.  But that move led to peace, so I don't think you can be criticizing that reaction to terrorism.

Canada is debating "allowing Sharia"?  Huh?  Which legislators are pushing it, and where might I find the text of such debates?

The only violence I've seen committed in Australia for political reasons wasn't "homegrown Muslims" doing anything, it was "homegrown whites" with Aussie flag tattoos beating anyone with brown skin during the big riots. 

You are taking the wrong lessons from other countries, it seems.  In places most similar to the United States, the mosque is not likely to cause trouble.  A native born, non-middle eastern or sub-continent origin national with a gun is infinitely more likely to kill you here than someone who prays in Arabic.  Don't be surprised when the next anti-gun administration points this out to justify spending even more tracking you and your guns.

[Paddy]

Why are you trying to change this thread to the Patriot Act? Your original post was about H.R. 1955. Do you realize you've lost that argument, that why?

H.R. 1955 expands the Homeland Security Act.  HSA and PA are two horns on the same beast. How does  splitting the two in your mind win some non existent 'argument'?  Does your ideology justify trading liberty for 'security'? 

[Manedwolf]

Why are you trying to change this thread to the Patriot Act? Your original post was about H.R. 1955. Do you realize you've lost that argument, that why?

H.R. 1955 expands the Homeland Security Act.  HSA and PA are two horns on the same beast. How does  splitting the two in your mind win some non existent 'argument'?  Does your ideology justify trading liberty for 'security'? 

[Paddy]

Once again, Manedwolf is simply unable to engage the argument. Instead, following in the Great Tradition of our Esteemed Leader, he proclaims 'victory' ("Mission Accomplished") and disappears.

Birds of a feather.................

[Manedwolf]

[Len Budney]

[Manedwolf]

[Paddy]

You give him too much credit, Len. Trolling actually requires some mental horsepower. 

Now go crap in somebody else's thread Manedwolf.  You're not in kindergarten anymore.