Author Topic: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers  (Read 10391 times)

Paddy

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2007, 01:30:03 PM »
You're saying that hundreds of thousands, pehaps millions of people who received 'advice and counsel given in good faith' simply chose to ignore same and make self destructive choices.  And there is no complicity on the part of the lenders?   There were no verbal assurances that real estate would continue to appreciate at the then current rate?  There were no verbal (wink, wink) hints that the ARM resets would be lower than the maximum contract rates?  No hype 'this is a great rate.  Better take it now before it changes.  After all, if you wait both rates and house prices could go up'.  etc., et yada.  You know very well there was sales coercion in many of these deals, perpetrated on people unsophisticated in either real estate or finance.

I have no doubt your ethics are the highest, Brad.  I've read enough of your posts to respect your professionalism.  Unfortunately, many in the real estate/mortgage industry have no such standards.

Stetson:
Quote
I just boought a house in February, there was legal jargon I didn't fully understand so I took it to a lawyer and he explained it.
 

There ya go.  Contracts written in language that requires a lawyer to translate.  The borrower(s) relied on the salesman/loan agent's verbal interpretation.  Who knows what the hell he/she said?

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2007, 01:42:16 PM »

There ya go.  Contracts written in language that requires a lawyer to translate.  The borrower(s) relied on the salesman/loan agent's verbal interpretation.  Who knows what the hell he/she said?

Common sense should tell you to verify any unwritten assertions made by a salesman, especially if (as Riley claims) real estate and mortgage professionals have a reputation for dishonesty.  If you don't, you might as well have "SUCKER" tattooed across your forehead in big letters.


Brad Johnson

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2007, 01:43:00 PM »
Quote
You're saying that hundreds of thousands, pehaps millions of people who received 'advice and counsel given in good faith' simply chose to ignore same and make self destructive choices.


Yes.

Ever heard the "free refills for life + $9.95 S&H" commercials and laughed at the blatant line of BS?  Well, someone is buying the line or they wouldn't keep advertising that crap. 

Make that millions of someones, many of whom also have a pretty new home and a handy-dandy adjustable-rate or b-paper mortgage.

Brad
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Paddy

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2007, 01:47:36 PM »
Quote
You're saying that hundreds of thousands, pehaps millions of people who received 'advice and counsel given in good faith' simply chose to ignore same and make self destructive choices.


Yes.

Brad

That completes the argument for more government oversight, regulation, and enforcement of consumer protection laws.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2007, 01:53:10 PM »
Quote
That completes the argument for more government oversight, regulation, and enforcement of consumer protection laws.


Translation: People are so friggin' stupid it takes government oversight to protect them from themselves.

Brad
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Stetson

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2007, 03:17:55 PM »


That completes the argument for more government oversight, regulation, and enforcement of consumer protection laws.

No.  It creates more bloated govt crap we don't need.  We really do not need the government protecting stupid people from being stupid.

My wife and I were approved for $250,000.00 for a house loan.  We bought a brand new 1505sf house for $130,000.00(it was just appraised, by our appraiser, for $155k) .  Just because we were approved for something doesn't mean we could afford the payments.  We could, provided nothing ever happened to one of us, job wise.  The way we did it, we can afford the payments.

It is not my fault, your fault, Brads fault or anyone BUT the buyers of too much house, fault.  Do your beliefs also run to protecting people who run up too much credit card debt?  Do we need to bail them out too?

Paddy

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2007, 04:43:58 PM »
Congratulations, Stetson.  I hope you are able to meet all your mortgage payments as agreed, and that unemployment, illness, recession, depression or economic 'downturn' do not threaten your home.

No, it is not your fault, my fault, Brad's fault or anybody's fault but the lenders fault.  They are the professionals, and they knew damn well that real estate values and economic cycles could converge to cause massive defaults.  Nonetheless, they were more interested in short term profits than sound long term financial decisions.  They are the ones who need supervision, not the consumer, who (rightfully) has an expectation of honest and fair dealing.

De Selby

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2007, 11:55:08 PM »
In line with what Riley is saying, why is the focus always on the buyer/consumer in these cases?

In a bad loan there were two irresponsible parties-the lender and the borrower.  In these cases, I think it makes sense to apply the principle that he who is in the best position to avoid the harm should be responsible for losses due to poor decision making. 

The mortgage mess could easily have been avoided had these financial geniuses in the lending firms simply done their homework-they are the ones with all the expertise and who are actually paid to make sure that the banks don't lend out money in situations where the borrower is not likely to pay it back. 

So because the lenders didn't do their jobs, everyone wants to come down like a ton of bricks on the consumers who bought into the lenders' bad loans? That makes no sense. 

The lenders should be held accountable for not doing their jobs and being irresponsible, so that the next time around, they simply will not loan money to people who can't pay it back.  They should have known better (and were in every position to know better), so I have no sympathy for their bad business practices.  When they go to court looking to collect on their bad debts, my feeling is "Hey, you loaned money to this guy when you knew or clearly should have known he wasn't going to be able to pay it back--you got what you bargained for, so what do you want me to do now?"
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Stetson

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2007, 02:58:06 AM »
Congratulations, Stetson.  I hope you are able to meet all your mortgage payments as agreed, and that unemployment, illness, recession, depression or economic 'downturn' do not threaten your home.

No, it is not your fault, my fault, Brad's fault or anybody's fault but the lenders fault.  They are the professionals, and they knew damn well that real estate values and economic cycles could converge to cause massive defaults.  Nonetheless, they were more interested in short term profits than sound long term financial decisions.  They are the ones who need supervision, not the consumer, who (rightfully) has an expectation of honest and fair dealing.

I can make my mortgage payments if there is job loss or illness or whatever.  That's one reason we bought the 130k home.  I agree that the lenders are partly to blame.  However, so are the buyers.  People making $15/hr with 4 kids know they cannot afford a $300k house, but they did it anyway.  If you are buying a house and you get an ARM loan, you had better know that the rates wil go up as that is what an ARM does.  Consumer stupidity is not an excuse.  We do not need the govt bailing all these people out.

I did read the whole plan.  It doesn't get these people out of houses they cannot afford, it just defers the burden for another 5 yrs.  Then what?

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2007, 05:06:26 AM »

I did read the whole plan.  It doesn't get these people out of houses they cannot afford, it just defers the burden for another 5 yrs.  Then what?
Hopefully in 5 years they can refinance into something they can afford, or sell and buy something more within their means. 

If not, then two things happen.  First, the outstanding principal on the loan is lower because the borrower has been paying it down over the last 5 years.  Second, hopefully the housing market is out of the slump and homes will sell for higher values.  Both combine to make it more feasible for the bank to get their money back through foreclosure.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2007, 06:40:45 AM »
Quote
The lenders should be held accountable for not doing their jobs and being irresponsible, so that the next time around, they simply will not loan money to people who can't pay it back.

Just because the media is focusing on the lenders still doesn't excuse those borrowers who bought more house than they could afford.  The media is picking the biggest target.  They aren't about to look at the borrower side of the story lest they bruise some poor soul's delicate sensibilities. Besides, it doesn't sell as much air time.

Are there lenders out there that needed their hand spanked?  Yes.  You will be happy to know that most of these have already gone under.

*EDIT TO ADD*  I don't think some people realize what "lender" means.  Most people see their local bank or mortage office as a "lender".  Chances are they aren't.  They are a mortgage broker.  They are originating a mortgage under the guidelines of a larger national underwriter (the actual "deep pockets" of the transaction).  The broker takes the borrower's criteria and compares it against the guidelines for several underwriters' mortgage products.  Once matched, the broker gets everything taken care of for the buyer and "sells" the loan to the national underwriter.  As a buyer, 90% of the documentation you sign at closing has to deal with the mortgage, including the transfer to some larger entity.  In other words, XYZ Morgage in Prolapsed Rectum, Idaho may be physically doing the paperwork, but GMAC or ABN-AMRO is the national underwriter buying and funding the loan.

Also...

Until recently a shady broker could get away with anything they could provide documentation for, provided the documentation satisfied the underwriter's requirments and was deemed acceptable by the underwriter's loan processor.  Once the loan closed and they got their check, that was it.  If the borrower defaulted later it was no skin off their back.  The underwriter abosorbed the hit.  Now, many underwriters include a time-sensitive reversion clause for the broker (and I think FHA-insured loans require it - carebear, clarify here).  For a certain number of years after the loan closes a default by the borrower goes straight back to the broker.  Now the broker has a direct stake in seeing that the borrower successfully services their mortgage loan.  Most brokers who worked the system like this have already gone bye-bye, along with the underwriters who allowed it to happen ("New Century" should ring a bell here..).

Brad
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seeker_two

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2007, 07:51:44 AM »
So, my question is.....why is it that our military is scraping for funds while fighting a two-front war, but Bush can find the cash to push this through?.....  undecided

...and why doesn't he do something about high gas prices, too?    rolleyes
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K Frame

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2007, 08:05:02 AM »
"but Bush can find the cash to push this through?....."

WHAT money?

Nothing I've seen so far requires any payments from the government to anyone.

The only money the government is putting into it is a boost of $170 million to government sponsored credit counseling programs, and those programs aren't specifically targeted at those people who are already in trouble.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2007, 08:13:05 AM »
So, my question is.....why is it that our military is scraping for funds while fighting a two-front war, but Bush can find the cash to push this through?.....  undecided

...and why doesn't he do something about high gas prices, too?    rolleyes

Everyone say this out loud with me:

"THE GOVERNMENT ISN'T PAYING ANYONE.  THERE IS NO BAIL OUT.  NOBODY IS MAKING ANY MONEY FROM THIS DEAL."

Got it?  The banks (which, as Brad correctly points out, aren't really the true lenders ehre, but "bank" is a convenient shorthand so I use it) have worked out a system which they hope will cost them the least amount of losses.  They realize that if they demand full interest payments and foreclose if they don't get it, it will likely cost them MORE than if they allow their borrowers to slide on some of their interest payments.  This is an option that lenders consider all the time.  The only real difference here is that they've institutionalized the decision.

The government isn't really involved.  Bush and FedGov are doing the "me-too" tagalong, hoping the country will believe that they're doing something positive about the problem.

Glock Glockler

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2007, 09:59:50 AM »
The borrower(s) relied on the salesman/loan agent's verbal interpretation.  Who knows what the hell he/she said?

Hmmm, what is written on the paper they sign?  Regardless of what the salesman said what is written on paper is the responsibility of the customer to read and understand. 

There were no verbal assurances that real estate would continue to appreciate at the then current rate?

And theyd believe the salesman because&?  Thats like getting angry at the politician because he didnt fix everything like he promised

That completes the argument for more government oversight, regulation, and enforcement of consumer protection laws

Ok, so instead of these are the fees, this is your rate, this is your payment, etc.  Do you understand? well just have 5 pages of duplication, maybe by the 5th time it will make sense?


shootinstudent

Ill try to put this in simple terms for you:

The lender gives the borrower money, and the collateral is the asset purchased.  The contract states if you dont pay we reclaim our asset.

Therefore, if the lender wants to foreclose due to non-payment, you, as the hypothetical judge, would simply do nothing and allow the proceedings to occur.  Now, many of these foreclosures are occurring on houses that are worth less than the note is for, THAT is the lenders problem because they chose to lend the money on that collateral, but they are fully within their rights to take the house back. 



Sergeant Bob

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2007, 01:59:50 PM »
So, my question is.....why is it that our military is scraping for funds while fighting a two-front war, but Bush can find the cash to push this through?.....  undecided

...and why doesn't he do something about high gas prices, too?    rolleyes

Everyone say this out loud with me:

"THE GOVERNMENT ISN'T PAYING ANYONE.  THERE IS NO BAIL OUT.  NOBODY IS MAKING ANY MONEY FROM THIS DEAL."

The government isn't really involved.  Bush and FedGov are doing the "me-too" tagalong, hoping the country will believe that they're doing something positive about the problem.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO YELL! No, wait, yes you do. grin In the future, please refrain from suggesting someone might benefit from actually READING THE ARTICLE!!!!
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Waitone

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2007, 02:12:05 PM »
Just as I thought.  It appears there is more to the bailout than first reported.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12072007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/ws_disastrous_mortgage_fix_767611.htm

First, the plan as generally reported by our crack(ed) media
<snip>
Quote
The centerpiece of Bush's plan is to encourage lenders, investors and their agents to freeze interest rates for up to five years on tens of thousands, and perhaps hundreds of thousands, of mortgages issued during the last three years at below-market "teaser" interest rates.

Second, here is a statement of the obvious.
Quote
Yet this plan, bad as it is, has little chance of helping most of the people who face the possibility of foreclosure - after all, 1.5 million Americans will see their mortgage rates "reset" to higher rates next year.

Third, and now we hear the rest of the story.
Quote
  So Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson will propose to Congress to let cities and states issue tax-exempt debt to bail out even more borrowers.

Cities and states would borrow billions and lend the money to "homeowners" (in fact, these borrowers don't actually "own" their homes; they only own the mortgage). The "homeowners," in turn, would use the money to pay off the mortgages they can't afford - and take out new, more affordable mortgages with their city or state government. (Not all tax-exempt debt is guaranteed by the city or state that issues it, but this debt would have to be - no private investor will touch this risk right now for an interest rate that would be "affordable" to these borrowers.)

<snip>

Classic Washington sleight of hand.  Play up what the voter wants to believe.  Spend a few days saturating the coverage with what appears to be the proposal.  Then later on finish the proposal preferably on a Friday when attentions turn to the weekend.  That way when legislative efforts start no one can say they were deceived. 

Absolutely disgusting.  Consistent but disgusting.
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The Rabbi

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2007, 06:11:10 PM »
SO there is enough blame to go around.
Now let's focus on a solution.  I have a novel one:
Nothing.
Right, the gov't should do nothing in this situation.  The mortgage industry is already one of the most highly regulated in the country. I do not know another one where the seller has to disclose how much money he is making to the buyer.
Will people get foreclosed on? Yes.
Will they lose their homes?  Yes.
Is that bad?  Yes.
So what?  bad things happen to people all the time, usually as a result of their own stupidity and short-sightedness.
Doing nothing will reduce home prices and keep the idea of a binding contract in force.  It will avoid moral hazard.  It will make a buying opportunity for anyone smart enough to have cash and credit.  And it wont cost taxpayers any money.
That sounds like a win-win situation to me.
Let's see which politician, when asked for his plan, has the guts to say "that's a bad thing, but it isn't our responsibility to help and we'll end up making things worse."  That man has my vote.
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doczinn

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2007, 06:29:52 AM »
Damn it, Rabbi, I'm agreeing with you again. [eerie voice]No good will come of this....[/voice]
D. R. ZINN

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2007, 12:16:32 PM »
Thing is, the government really isn't doing anything.  In this case the government is pretty much irrelevant.

Lenders can and often do lower rates for people who can't afford the loan they signed up for.  They can decline to foreclose on a mortgaged home even though the borrower is in default.  They do these sorts of things all the time, whenever they feel that's the best way for them to get their funds back out of a bad loan.  They do this without government.  That's all they're doing now, except that this time it's more institutionalized, and it gives the talking heads in Washington a chance to take credit for "doing something".

Y'all do realize that the plan is entirely voluntary, right?  That it gives lenders a choice to do something they've always had the choice to do anyway?

Really, the whole thing is much ado about nothing.  It's a photo op, a back-patting exercise, nothing more.

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2007, 12:46:47 PM »
There are lots of plans floating around out there.  Typically they give the polticians proposing them the ability to appear "more compassionate" than the next guy.  The only danger is if one of these clowns actually takes it seriously and tries to institute it.
The current proposal I have seen mandates keeping teaser rates where they are for 5-7years.  That would untold violence to the idea of contracts.  Of course this is certainly precedented in the  insurance mess following Katrina.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2007, 02:31:05 PM »
Oh, well we've been discussing the plan that was actually "instituted" by the mortgage industry and the White House.  Doubtless there are other ideas being floated around, but those don't stand much chance of be realized any time soon.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2007, 08:26:27 AM »
Quote from: Rabbi
The only danger is if one of these clowns actually takes it seriously and tries to institute it.

Bingo.

Brad
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Paddy

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2007, 04:45:54 PM »
Once again, 'free market' abuses trigger more government regulation:

U.S. Fed proposes rules to protect would-be homeowners

By Edmund L. Andrews and David Stout
Published: December 18, 2007


WASHINGTON: The Federal Reserve moved Tuesday to impose tough new restrictions meant to curb unfair and deceptive home-lending practices and prevent a recurrence of the meltdown in subprime mortgages this year.

By a 5-to-0 vote, the Fed approved a plan that would tighten provisions meant to protect borrowers and apply them to a far larger share of home loans - whether from banks, mortgage companies or other lenders - than under current regulations.

The proposed rules underscore the more assertive role the Fed is now prepared to take in regulating lending, a big shift from the central bank's approach in the past. In general, the rules are meant to deter unscrupulous lenders from persuading people that they can afford loans that ought to be out of their reach. By extension, the rules are also intended to keep would-be buyers from deceiving themselves about the debt burdens they can shoulder.

"Our goal is to promote responsible mortgage lending, for the benefit of individual consumers and the economy," said the Fed chairman, Ben Bernanke.

"We want consumers to make decisions about home mortgage options confidently, with assurances that unscrupulous home mortgage practices will not be tolerated."

The plan includes provisions that would require more extensive disclosures, restrict advertising and make it harder to lend to borrowers with little or no documentation and a questionable ability to repay.

It would also allow borrowers, in some circumstances, to sue lenders who violated the rules.

The Fed acted under provisions of the Truth in Lending Act and the Home Ownership Equity Protection Act of 1994. In the past, it had been quite cautious about using its authority to clamp down, and the rules were last revised in 2001.

Details of the proposed rules, which could take effect next year after a period for public comment and possible revisions, can be read on the Fed's Web site, www.federalreserve.gov.

In "four key protections," the Fed listed these:

Creditors would be barred from lending without documenting a borrower's ability to repay the loan.

Creditors would have to verify a borrower's income and assets.

Prepayment penalties would be restricted.

Creditors would have to establish escrow accounts for taxes and insurance.

"Unfair and deceptive practices have harmed consumers and the integrity of the home mortgage market," said a Fed governor, Randall Kroszner. "We have listened closely and developed a response to abuses that we believe will facilitate responsible lending."

The action puts the Fed a step ahead of the Congress, which is considering its own steps to tighten restrictions on the home loan industry. A bill put forward by Representative Barney Frank, a Massachusetts Democrat and chairman of the Financial Services Committee of the House of Representatives, would expose mortgage brokers and lenders to legal liability if borrowers are unable to repay.

The Fed did not go as far as proposals by some consumer groups, which sought, for example, an outright ban on prepayment penalties.

What the Fed has been hearing in recent months is a complex blend of personal hardship and dire news for the country as a whole, as waves of foreclosures have swamped the housing market and threatened to mire the economy in a recession.

The housing boom of the first several years seems almost as distant as the boom in technology stocks, but economists have warned that the fallout from the housing slump could be much worse than that from the dot-com bubble.

Many homebuyers whose little slice of the American dream has turned into a nightmare were undone by "teaser rates" dangled in front of "balloon mortgages." When the tempting original rates were supplanted by much higher rates built into the loan, many homeowners could not make the monthly payments.

Those personal misfortunes - whether the result of individual misjudgment, excessive optimism, shady lending or all of those - have mushroomed into a national problem.

The situation is further complicated by the subsequent packaging and reselling of subprime mortgages in ways that are so arcane that even some bankers acknowledge they are befuddled by them.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/18/business/subprime.php

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Bush to freeze some subprimes, bail out irresponsible homebuyers
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2007, 05:47:50 PM »
Ah yes, the government is going to pass more laws to protect ignorant people who are just being their ignorant selves. rolleyes
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

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