Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Scout26 on January 08, 2009, 04:03:43 PM
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Got a copy of the NSSF range report e-mail newsletter today. Two Items of interest:
ATF Posts Notice for All FFLs
Regarding Shortage of ATF Form 4473
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has run into an unprecedented demand for ATF Forms 4473 (5300.9) Part I Revised August 2008 and is running low on its inventory.
To address the shortage of these yellow form 4473s, ATF has posted a notice on its Web site authorizing a temporary measure of allowing FFLs to photocopy form 4473 in its entirety.
Of course, an option is to use the electronic form, E-4473, available from the ATF.gov Web site.
This temporary measure is intended to remedy any shortage, and a notice will be posted at the expiration of this measure's authorization.
Which appears to be caused by this:
Gun Sales Continue to Increase;
NICS Checks Jump 24% in December
Despite a weak economy, gun sales are continuing to increase amid concerns that incoming lawmakers will institute a new gun ban on law-abiding Americans.
Data derived from the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) show a 24 percent increase in firearm purchaser background checks for the month of December 2008 (1,523,426 checks) over December 2007 (1,230,525 checks). This increase follows a 42 percent rise in NICS checks for the preceding month, the highest number of checks in NICS history. FBI background checks are required under federal law for all individuals purchasing firearms from federally licensed retailers. These checks serve as a strong indicator of actual sales.
A recent poll of hunters and target shooters by Southwick Associates Inc., in which 80 percent of respondents said they expect it will become more difficult to purchase firearms under the incoming administration and congress, explains the increase in sales.
"Sales of firearms, in particular handguns and semi-automatic hunting and target rifles, are fast outpacing inventory," said National Shooting Sports Foundation President and CEO Stephen L. Sanetti. "It's clear that many people are concerned about possible gun bans under the incoming Congress and are reacting accordingly."
According to ATF, the large increase in demand for firearms has led to a shortage of Form 4473s.
Final year-end NICS data reveals a total of 12,709,023 background checks reported in 2008, up 14 percent from 2007.
Any bets on how long the incoming Congress/Administration takes a look at this numbers and either goes for a gun ban or at least a "temporary" suspension of gun sales ??
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a buddy from a capitol hill lobby group told me that the FAET is flowing revenue into state wildlife commissions
http://www.ttb.gov/firearms/faqs.shtml
http://www.outdoorblog.net/2008/07/22/congressional-sportsmens-foundation-csf-briefs-congressmen-on-introduced-faet-legislation/
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Hrm. So 1,523,426 (give or take a couple thousand for denies) firearms are in the hands of certified sane, law abiding citizens? Excellent. That's one firearm for every 150 US citizens, aged 18 or older. In one month. Come to think about it, two months worth of sales probably exceeds the total number of firearms in armories for the entire US military.
Any bets on how long the incoming Congress/Administration takes a look at this numbers and either goes for a gun ban or at least a "temporary" suspension of gun sales ??
Gun ban would take a bit of time, which would spike numbers even higher and make the issue look even more worrisome to a career minded Congresscritter. "Temporary" suspension of gun sales would probably double gun purchases if/when the suspension was over. Remember the effects of the Cali .50 cal ban.
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I'm currently trying to find some good prices on a Springfield XDM, a Ruger SR9, a Mossberg 4X4, and a Mossberg 590. Seeing if the local shop will come close to online prices.
It will be interesting to see if they have the 4473's. Definitely don't want to do it online. :lol:
Let's beat December's sales to start the new year.
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Just for fun, I'd been peeking at what prices are doing.
Bulgarian AK waffles are now $40 at every vendor. :O
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Just for fun, I'd been peeking at what prices are doing.
Bulgarian AK waffles are now $40 at every vendor. :O
I saw a stock Arsenal AK, used, for $1500. Generic brand AR stripped receivers for $500. etc etc. Well, supply and demand. Just glad I have everything on my list purchased already. I'm just hoping that the price increases prompt more manufacturers or importers to open the flood gates.
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Bulgarian AK waffles are now $40 at every vendor. :O
MMMMmmmmm... waffles!
Brad
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Quote
Any bets on how long the incoming Congress/Administration takes a look at this numbers and either goes for a gun ban or at least a "temporary" suspension of gun sales ??
Gun ban would take a bit of time, which would spike numbers even higher and make the issue look even more worrisome to a career minded Congresscritter. "Temporary" suspension of gun sales would probably double gun purchases if/when the suspension was over. Remember the effects of the Cali .50 cal ban.
In the interest of "cutting back" and "making tough choices", it would not take much to lay off NICS employees and grind sales to a standstill...certainly not an act of Congress.
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In the interest of "cutting back" and "making tough choices", it would not take much to lay off NICS employees and grind sales to a standstill...certainly not an act of Congress.
The FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services Division handles full NICS services in 30 states. Some states, including the fine Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, have their own NICS employees. It would indeed take, at a minimum, an act of Congress to shut us down.
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics.htm (http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics.htm)
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In the interest of "cutting back" and "making tough choices", it would not take much to lay off NICS employees and grind sales to a standstill...certainly not an act of Congress.
I have a hunch it would be a lot quicker and easier just to have so-called "computer problems."
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I have a hunch it would be a lot quicker and easier just to have so-called "computer problems."
Just like what happened during the Million Mom March in DC during Clinton's term.
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Gun ban would take a bit of time, which would spike numbers even higher and make the issue look even more worrisome to a career minded Congresscritter. "Temporary" suspension of gun sales would probably double gun purchases if/when the suspension was over. Remember the effects of the Cali .50 cal ban.
The problem with that is that it's now a lot harder to buy a gun in a hurry. Most anything they're going to ban is now sold out or soon to be sold out.
Go into your local shop and try to buy an AR or AK. Ask 'em about a few of the popular hicap pistols. Chances are you'll here responses like "none available" and "3 month waiting list."
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If there's no gun ban within the year, a lot of people will be looking very silly with their $1500 AKs.
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Bulgarian AK waffles are now $40 at every vendor. :O
Yet Belgian waffles are still very affordable.
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Belgian waffles were part of the Bill Bennett, Gun Czar, 1989 ban. =D
I'm all set and I'll soon start checking into selling off what I stockpiled. I'm going to take a folding stock AK to the show in Indy this weekend and test the market.
I just want to get a few Masadas before the Barry Ban gets pushed.
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Generic brand AR stripped receivers for $500.
:O
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Any bets on how long the incoming Congress/Administration takes a look at this numbers and either goes for a gun ban or at least a "temporary" suspension of gun sales ??
Or it goes the other way completely, and they realize that the "gun owner factor" is alive and well. And they decide that it's not worth losing a house in 2010 like they did in 1994 with any significant anti-gun legislation.
They can sway the American middle with nebulous notions of "change" and class envy, but the gun issue is something concrete they can wrap their heads around.
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If there's no gun ban within the year, a lot of people will be looking very silly with their $1500 AKs.
I'm sure people expressed a similar sentiment about machine guns around 1985.
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Agree with AJ on this one.
Bill Clinton, in his book, pulled no punches in saying that the '94 ban was one of the worst mistakes he ever made. He said that Democrat leaders begged him not to push for the ban, and said that they would lose in the '94 elections. Well, they were right, and he admitted it.
There's a lot more EBR owners now than there were in '94. I just can't see the Democrats not realizing what the implications would be. The Democrats understand doing what it takes to get elected and stay in office. It's their whole reason for being.
I'm betting that we'll see a couple of relatively minor pushes, such as "closing the gun show loophole." Even these, though, will have a tough time.
Many of the newly-elected Democrats come from districts that were previously represented by Republicans, and are thus more conservative. Bitter and clinging, if you will.
As it is, I think the Republicans are positioning themselves to take back control of congress in 2010. Why would the Democrats hand them the keys by pushing gun control?
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There's a lot more EBR owners now than there were in '94. I just can't see the Democrats not realizing what the implications would be. The Democrats understand doing what it takes to get elected and stay in office.
They don't care. They must disarm the serfs.
"Gun control" is part of their DNA.
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"They don't care. They must disarm the serfs."
Very true. The ones who are REALLY pushing this crap are the true zealots who come from areas where they could eat a baby and still be re-elected.
Since this is taking a more political tack, I'm moving it to Politics Place.
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If there's no gun ban within the year, a lot of people will be looking very silly with their $1500 AKs.
Only silly if they sold them at a loss. Firearms last quite a long time if properly kept. If you purchased something, even at an inflated price, it's because you felt the object was worth the price. I'm probably going to pay quite a bit more than $1500 for a AK varient I am looking for. It's my holy grail, and I'm willing to pay through the nose happily to get one. Only thing is, I'm not sure if there are any in the country...
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As it is, I think the Republicans are positioning themselves to take back control of congress in 2010. Why would the Democrats hand them the keys by pushing gun control?
Democrats do a lot of things that don't make sense. Expecting them to act upon reason and sense is pretty dumb.
Personally, I'm not about to rely on Democrats to do the right thing. I won't pay scalper prices for stuff, but I am going to stock up on a few items.
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As it is, I think the Republicans are positioning themselves to take back control of congress in 2010. Why would the Democrats hand them the keys by pushing gun control?
I think they're still scratching their heads and wondering why Republican Lite didn't work, and positioning themselves to try it again. They're also of course still worrying if Palin will go off message when she talks to the media, still...they need to make sure she doesn't!
Also, Boehner is an idiot and needs to go, but will not.
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I hear other government agencies are quite jealous of the FAET revenue from these sales.
Why kill a revenue stream? They are more likely to increase the taxes and add more repercussions to off book sales.
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Many of the newly-elected Democrats come from districts that were previously represented by Republicans, and are thus more conservative. Bitter and clinging, if you will.
As it is, I think the Republicans are positioning themselves to take back control of congress in 2010. Why would the Democrats hand them the keys by pushing gun control?
All the Dems have to do is put the AWB in the stimulus package that we have been told is mandatory if the economy is to recover. If the Repubs don't vote for it, the Dems have an opportunity to beat them over the head for not helping out the people who are suffering. If the Repubs vote for it, the issue is negated.
In either case, what cost them in 1994 was voting for an AWB during the mid term election year. Doing it in 2010 would be foolish. Doing it now would let typical short attention span of the American voter wipe the slate clean by next year.
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Belgian waffles were part of the Bill Bennett, Gun Czar, 1989 ban. =D
I'm all set and I'll soon start checking into selling off what I stockpiled. I'm going to take a folding stock AK to the show in Indy this weekend and test the market.
I just want to get a few Masadas before the Barry Ban gets pushed.
Let me know if you start selling off any 20 round AK mags El T.
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All the Dems have to do is put the AWB in the stimulus package that we have been told is mandatory if the economy is to recover. If the Repubs don't vote for it, the Dems have an opportunity to beat them over the head for not helping out the people who are suffering.
Except for the small matter that the stimulus package is on the rocks already and is a highly contentious issue in itself (even within the dem party), and noted economists like Stiglitz and Feldstein have noted the currently proposed $10-20/week gain in after tax income for taxpayers over 1-2 years won't do much good. Adding another highly divisive issue like guns to an already troubled piece of legislation only provides cover for republicans and the blue dogs to publicly oppose the bill on fiscal concerns when the gun issue may be the true reason for their opposition.
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Except for the small matter that the stimulus package is on the rocks already and is a highly contentious issue in itself (even within the dem party), and noted economists like Stiglitz and Feldstein have noted the currently proposed $10-20/week gain in after tax income for taxpayers over 1-2 years won't do much good. Adding another highly divisive issue like guns to an already troubled piece of legislation only provides cover for republicans and the blue dogs to publicly oppose the bill on fiscal concerns when the gun issue may be the true reason for their opposition.
Even if not the stimulation package there is a lot of legislation to hide a ban in. Farm subsidies, military funding, disaster relief in the event of another large national disaster etc.
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Even if not the stimulation package there is a lot of legislation to hide a ban in. Farm subsidies, military funding, disaster relief in the event of another large national disaster etc.
The same principle applies. By adding an unrelated and extremely divisive issue to a bill, you run the risk of derailing the original issue with outright objections to the latter issue, and/or opposition to the latter issue disguised as objections to the former. In essence, its handing your opposition a pre-built divide and conquer strategy to your legislation.
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Let me know if you start selling off any 20 round AK mags El T.
Apex still has Hungarian tanker 20 round mags new in their oiled paper for $14 each.
https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/cPath/50/products_id/226?osCsid=o25ib55d2p4i0nsrmce (https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/cPath/50/products_id/226?osCsid=o25ib55d2p4i0nsrmce)
I'd just gotten a few more. I like them. They don't hit the bench.
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The same principle applies. By adding an unrelated and extremely divisive issue to a bill, you run the risk of derailing the original issue with outright objections to the latter issue, and/or opposition to the latter issue disguised as objections to the former. In essence, its handing your opposition a pre-built divide and conquer strategy to your legislation.
You assume 1) that your opposition will actually read the bill, 2) your opposition will notice the provision and 3) your opposition will feel its to their advantage to oppose it.
A one line provision in 1,000 page stimulus package that essentially says "the provisions relevant to the AWB shall be reinstated in the same manner as they were in effect on September 12, 2004, with the exception that the sunset provision contained in 18 U.S.C. § 922__ shall be deleted" isn't likely to be found or raised.
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If there's no gun ban within the year, a lot of people will be looking very silly with their $1500 AKs.
Silly and overprepared is better than not having it, with a ban just enacted...
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You assume 1) that your opposition will actually read the bill, 2) your opposition will notice the provision and 3) your opposition will feel its to their advantage to oppose it.
A one line provision in 1,000 page stimulus package that essentially says "the provisions relevant to the AWB shall be reinstated in the same manner as they were in effect on September 12, 2004, with the exception that the sunset provision contained in 18 U.S.C. § 922__ shall be deleted" isn't likely to be found or raised.
Aren't a lot of the appropriateion/subsidy bills several thousand pages?
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Aren't a lot of the appropriateion/subsidy bills several thousand pages?
I wanted to put it in easily managed terms. The true comparison isn't "needle in a haystack" but "needle in a field of haystacks."
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Any adder to a bill will get noticed by someone. There are all sorts of watch dog groups and individuals who pick up on all kinds of details that appear in bills. The question is will anyone really care.
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I wanted to put it in easily managed terms. The true comparison isn't "needle in a haystack" but "needle in a field of haystacks."
Still not that difficult to find; we now have these amazing things called "computers". The last major case I was involved in was a $10bn anti-trust damages suit. There was something on the order of 50,000,000 pages of contracts, internal reports, spreadsheets, emails, and other documents. With the litigation software we used, you could perform a search and locate every single page with a certain term or term within minutes.
A mere few thousand pages? Easy.
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I just don't understand how anyone can think gun control is a "third rail" issue anymore. 1994 is long past, Democrats are in firm control of both houses, they have a confirmed gun banner in the White House.
Based on the drubbing they gave to the GOP, I believe they are convinced that they will remain in power for a very long stretch.
They are drunk already on the power they anticipate having once The One is inaugurated.
They know that voters have a short memory. Anything done far enough in advance of the next elections will be forgotten.
In other words, the Democrats are in firm control of the government, and they know it. In my opinion, they believe they can pass any damn legislation they want without penalty or repercussion.
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I'm currently trying to find some good prices on a Springfield XDM, a Ruger SR9, a Mossberg 4X4, and a Mossberg 590. Seeing if the local shop will come close to online prices.
It will be interesting to see if they have the 4473's. Definitely don't want to do it online. :lol:
Let's beat December's sales to start the new year.
I've been trying to get a Mossberg 590 heavy barrel full-length mag tube for four months now.
Nadda. :|
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I just don't understand how anyone can think gun control is a "third rail" issue anymore. 1994 is long past, Democrats are in firm control of both houses, they have a confirmed gun banner in the White House.
Based on the drubbing they gave to the GOP, I believe they are convinced that they will remain in power for a very long stretch.
They are drunk already on the power they anticipate having once The One is inaugurated.
They know that voters have a short memory. Anything done far enough in advance of the next elections will be forgotten.
In other words, the Democrats are in firm control of the government, and they know it. In my opinion, they believe they can pass any damn legislation they want without penalty or repercussion.
But yet they are already fighting amongst themselves about things and turning on Obama and he hasn't even stepped foot in office. Might actually be quite entertaining to sit back and watch them implode all by themselves.
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According to the GOA grading, there are about 69 C, D, F and "Not Rated" Senators in the 111th Congress.
That's not much of an "anti-gun" advantage; even assuming the C's would all vote for an AWB and that all of the NR's will turn out to do so as well.
Not sure how the new House breaks out but I can't imagine the mix is much different.
We, the gun community, REALLY need to get past the "Democrat invariably = anti-gun" stereotype and start looking at the issue more than the party.
Only by making it clear that pro-gun candidates of any political stripe will get our support will give the pro-gun Dem's a chance to take back their party from the statist maroons.
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We, the gun community, REALLY need to get past the "Democrat invariably = anti-gun" stereotype and start looking at the issue more than the party.
They're invariably FUDDs who will throw EBR owners under the bus, in my experience.
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They're invariably FUDDs who will throw EBR owners under the bus, in my experience.
Like John Dingell?
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Agree with AJ on this one.
Bill Clinton, in his book, pulled no punches in saying that the '94 ban was one of the worst mistakes he ever made. He said that Democrat leaders begged him not to push for the ban, and said that they would lose in the '94 elections. Well, they were right, and he admitted it.
There's a lot more EBR owners now than there were in '94. I just can't see the Democrats not realizing what the implications would be. The Democrats understand doing what it takes to get elected and stay in office. It's their whole reason for being.
I'm betting that we'll see a couple of relatively minor pushes, such as "closing the gun show loophole." Even these, though, will have a tough time.
Many of the newly-elected Democrats come from districts that were previously represented by Republicans, and are thus more conservative. Bitter and clinging, if you will.
As it is, I think the Republicans are positioning themselves to take back control of congress in 2010. Why would the Democrats hand them the keys by pushing gun control?
I agree also, and I'm holding out on this belief, hoping that I can get an AR quite cheaply later this year.
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They're invariably FUDDs who will throw EBR owners under the bus, in my experience.
Repubs have thrown EBR owners under the bus many times as well. Reagan signed the Hughes amendment, Bush Sr EO'd certain semiautos in '89 (plus Norinco but that was over ITAR), Bush Jr said he had every intention of renewing the AWB. Yes, the Dem's are historically worse. By a wide margin. But don't forget that the Repubs are not the most pro-2A folks either. For a period of time, they had a lock on every branch of government, and they did nothing to loosen gun control laws.
If you let Repubs know that they have your vote, regardless of their behavior, they will have no loyalty towards you. Why should they? They have you over a barrel anyways. If you say you intend to put dollars and votes in the pocket of any 2A candidate regardless of party... Maybe they stay bought just a bit more.
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Thank you Rev.
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I've been trying to get a Mossberg 590 heavy barrel full-length mag tube for four months now.
Nadda. :|
I haven't been able to get hold of a Mossberg 590 in any flavor. I waited a lot longer than I should have to pick one up. I see them on sale once in awhile and they seem to disappear in the blink of an eye.
Local joint says if they don't find one for me by mid-spring they'll give me a 930SXT for the price of the 590A1. I'd rather have the 590A1 but it's hard to pass up their offer. I'm going to mull it over for the next few months.
I hope your luck changes. =D
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So if one was considering getting a high capacity 9mm of some sort in the next month or so, what do y'all think is the best one to get? What would be easiest to get magazines for? I was looking an the Ruger SR9 and M&P 9mm yesterday. The Ruger SR9 is the only one I see still under $500.
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So if one was considering getting a high capacity 9mm of some sort in the next month or so, what do y'all think is the best one to get? What would be easiest to get magazines for? I was looking an the Ruger SR9 and M&P 9mm yesterday. The Ruger SR9 is the only one I see still under $500.
You can get a used SIG 226 for about $500 around here, blued, not stainless.
Easiest to get mags for are the old standards like the Beretta 92F and Taurus PT92, but they don't work for some peoples' hands. They're big for what they are.
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ZIG is a solid choice. So is the new Smith M&P as they are built like tanks.
Nothing wrong with Glock, built tough, can work on them with a flat rock and a hammer, parts and mags everywhere (heck, the mags are so numerous that I bought an s-load of 10 rounders for a G21 at $8 a pop on the southside of Indy), and the last 1st gen G17 I bought was $350 (a gun shop in Delphi, Indiana).
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Yes, the Dem's are historically worse. By a wide margin. But don't forget that the Repubs are not the most pro-2A folks either. For a period of time, they had a lock on every branch of government, and they did nothing to loosen gun control laws.
Judicial appointments were a big something, actually.
And didn't Ashcrofts's DOJ do us a couple of small favors? Reduced the time that certain records were kept, I believe, and came out in favor of an individual rights interpretation.
So, it's better than "nothing." Just sayin'.
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Judicial appointments were a big something, actually.
And didn't Ashcrofts's DOJ do us a couple of small favors? Reduced the time that certain records were kept, I believe, and came out in favor of an individual rights interpretation.
So, it's better than "nothing." Just sayin'.
Ashcroft wrote a nonbinding letter (http://www.nraila.org/images/Ashcroft.pdf) saying his interpretion of the 2A was individual as opposed to collective. Basically, Heller. In fairness, he also said he supported child safety locks and a ban on assault weapons. In short, Ashcroft was a Fudd.
I may be mistaken, so please don't quote me... But wasn't that record retention thing just actually complying with pre-existing laws? As I recall, certain folks in govt were keeping certain records long past the legally mandated destruction dates?
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So we still have judicial appointments, destroying records after 24 hours, and a statement on the 2A as an individual right. As I said, better than nothing.
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Or it goes the other way completely, and they realize that the "gun owner factor" is alive and well. And they decide that it's not worth losing a house in 2010 like they did in 1994 with any significant anti-gun legislation.
They can sway the American middle with nebulous notions of "change" and class envy, but the gun issue is something concrete they can wrap their heads around.
VERY -well- -said-. And we can "help the process along"
http://www.nraila.org/ActionCenter/GetInvolvedLocally/
-Boyd
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bksnip
I may be mistaken, so please don't quote me... But wasn't that record retention thing just actually complying with pre-existing laws? As I recall, certain folks in govt were keeping certain records long past the legally mandated destruction dates?
Something our opponents are already fighting to return to. Check out the first comment on this article:
http://www.opposingviews.com/articles/opinion-stop-eric-holder-from-becoming-attorney-general
then
http://www.nraila.org/ActionCenter/GetInvolvedLocally/ -Boyd
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I have a $100 bet going with the owner of a gun store in California. She said this afternoon that the new AWB will be passed and signed into law by the end of this year. For me, $100 isn't a small amount, but that's how certain I am that we're not going to see anything major make it through to Obama's desk.
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I have a $100 bet going with the owner of a gun store in California. She said this afternoon that the new AWB will be passed and signed into law by the end of this year. For me, $100 isn't a small amount, but that's how certain I am that we're not going to see anything major make it through to Obama's desk.
I am not so sure. These are zealots who are actually frightened of commoners with arms. Besides, HB 45 could be a deliberate ruse...they'll "compromise" by settling for the "far more reasonable AWB".