Armed Polite Society

Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: AZRedhawk44 on March 03, 2011, 03:42:53 PM

Title: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 03, 2011, 03:42:53 PM
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20110303/D9LNEKJ00.html

Quote
Two days later, Afifi says, agents wearing bullet-proof vests pulled him over as he drove away from his apartment in San Jose, Calif., and demanded their property back.

If I find something like that, ever... first thing I'm doing is driving out in the desert and putting manymanymany bullet holes in it.  Like 5 full 30rd AR magazines.

Quote
Judges have disagreed over whether search warrants should be required for GPS tracking.

I consider it trespass, an invasion of 4th amendment rights, and unlawful modification of my vehicle.

I'd even send them an invoice for whatever I scientifically calculated the fuel economy to drop as a result of the extra mass attached to the car.  Maybe $0.25.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: bedlamite on March 03, 2011, 03:49:58 PM
No, don't destroy it. Stick it on the bumper of a Greyhound bus.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: 230RN on March 03, 2011, 03:52:01 PM
I guess the moral is to change your oil often.

Quote
... arguing that investigators will lose access to a tool they now use "with great frequency."

Scar-eee.

Quote
... arguing that investigators will lose access to an unconstitutional tool they now use "with great frequency."

More bettah.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on March 03, 2011, 03:56:43 PM
No, don't destroy it. Stick it on the bumper of a Greyhound bus.

stick it on the mayors car  or the police chiefs  or their spouses >:D
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: makattak on March 03, 2011, 04:02:38 PM
stick it on the mayors car  or the police chiefs  or their spouses >:D

Hey, if they don't need a warrant for this, can't I just put one on anyone's car I want to know about?

Forget waiting on a GPS put on your car, get proactive!

http://www.digitalfotoclub.com/product-features.asp?id=964786226
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: MillCreek on March 03, 2011, 04:10:34 PM
Although I cannot lay my hands on it right now, I read of a similar story up here in the Pacific NW recently.  The difference here, was that it was Safeway tracking a professional shoplifting team.  While the car was parked in a Safeway lot, Safeway security put a GPS bug on their vehicle.  Safeway was then able to track when the team came to a Safeway, and they used that information to gather video evidence of their thefts, resulting in their arrests. Note that this was not a governmental agency doing the bugging, but a private corporation. Interesting.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: RevDisk on March 03, 2011, 04:18:46 PM
stick it on the mayors car  or the police chiefs  or their spouses >:D

Nope.  Stick it on the car of a journalist, activist or whatnot, and then anonymously let them know. 
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: makattak on March 03, 2011, 04:19:56 PM
Nope.  Stick it on the car of a journalist, activist or whatnot, and then anonymously let them know. 

And this is why I come here. Always someone more devious, errr, smarter than me.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: HankB on March 03, 2011, 04:22:23 PM
1. The story said that agents "demanded" the guy return the device. Sorry, guys, you put it on my car, it's a GIFT, and you're NOT getting it back without a court order. Assuming I still have it at all.

2. Placing it on another vehicle is an idea that has merit. Especially if you can locate, say, the spouse of a fed.gov LEO. An anonymous phone call to said spouse could result in much hilarity, depending on what is said. (A message "accidentally" left on the "wrong" answering machine - ostensibly to contact the other spouse - is only one possibility.)

3. Transfer bug to a network news reporter's car or news van - think they'll run a story?
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 03, 2011, 04:28:32 PM

Quote
The federal appeals court in the Washington circuit where Afifi's case was filed ruled in August that the collection of GPS data amounts to a government "search" that required a warrant. The Obama administration asked the court to change its ruling, calling the decision "vague and unworkable"


O RLY?  What part of "get a warrant" is too vague for you, sparky?

Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: sanglant on March 03, 2011, 08:54:36 PM
how long until gps units in cell phones, are in the same tool bag? [tinfoil]


or is that official issue man purse (http://Katie)? [popcorn]

for the record i love mine (http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/AGGRESSOR-TACTICAL-ATTACHE-13p779.htm). :laugh: it's a great three day bag. even has loops for a night stick/maglite.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 03, 2011, 09:23:26 PM
The argument appears to be that if they could get the information by just driving behind your car, they can get it in this way, since following you doesn't require a warrant.

A possible solution: Pass laws to require warrants for following a man, like in Germany.

A possible problem: Not requiring warrants for following a man made some degree of sense when the desire of police to track individuals was limited by costs, the number of police available, and so forth. This is no longer an issue with the cost of GPS tracking equipment drawing cheaper by the day.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: kgbsquirrel on March 03, 2011, 09:46:46 PM
The argument appears to be that if they could get the information by just driving behind your car, they can get it in this way, since following you doesn't require a warrant.

A possible solution: Pass laws to require warrants for following a man, like in Germany.

A possible problem: Not requiring warrants for following a man made some degree of sense when the desire of police to track individuals was limited by costs, the number of police available, and so forth. This is no longer an issue with the cost of GPS tracking equipment drawing cheaper by the day.

Also, back when you had to physically follow a man it was much harder to follow said man onto/into private property were a warrant was required.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: KD5NRH on March 03, 2011, 10:07:19 PM
No, don't destroy it. Stick it on the bumper of a Greyhound bus.

Or hack into the NMEA data stream, build an interface to feed the transmitter from, say Flight Simulator or Google Earth, and have some real fun.

"Sir, the tracker is reporting it just flew across the country and landed in the courtyard of the Pentagon."
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 04, 2011, 06:41:38 AM
Go to Wallyworld, buy helium ballon kit. Strap as many ballons as needed to GPS bug and set it free.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: nigmalg on March 04, 2011, 08:55:54 AM
What would be the charge if I were to apply a GPS tracking device directly to a marked police vehicle? According to the FBI, why, nothing at all!
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: RevDisk on March 04, 2011, 09:23:33 AM
What would be the charge if I were to apply a GPS tracking device directly to a marked police vehicle? According to the FBI, why, nothing at all!

From what I understand, warrantless wiretapping is reserved to the police and intelligence folks.  I'm not sure of the legal justification, but the regular wiretapping laws apply to you as a citizen.  If you did so on your own accord and did not notify the property owner, you'd probably face charges. 
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: HankB on March 04, 2011, 09:31:28 AM
From what I understand, warrantless wiretapping is reserved to the police and intelligence folks.  I'm not sure of the legal justification, but the regular wiretapping laws apply to you as a citizen.  If you did so on your own accord and did not notify the property owner, you'd probably face charges. 
But if the Feds, and not you, were getting the data stream?
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 04, 2011, 10:04:15 AM
The argument appears to be that if they could get the information by just driving behind your car, they can get it in this way, since following you doesn't require a warrant.

A possible solution: Pass laws to require warrants for following a man, like in Germany.

Or just pass a law that law enforcement can't mess with your car, at whim. Oh, yeah, the fourth amendment says that.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on March 04, 2011, 03:02:57 PM
its that pesky expectation of privacy thing
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 04, 2011, 03:40:09 PM
its that pesky expectation of privacy thing



Expectation of privacy is effectively a doctrine set by the courts. The courts in America currently believe you have none of it when you travel outside your home, but that could easily be changed.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 07, 2011, 02:48:53 AM
its that pesky expectation of privacy thing

Oh, I don't expect any privacy when I'm driving about on the public roads. But I do insist that no one has a right to mess with my cars. Not without a warrant, or probable cause, or the like. LEO can follow me and videotape me all they want. But they don't get to meddle with my property without a very good, articulable reason.

I just thought that was kinda basic.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: TechMan on May 10, 2011, 09:49:49 AM
Wired article on what the FBI is using for GPS tracking, with pictures.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/05/gps-gallery/ (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/05/gps-gallery/)


(http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/wp-content/gallery/gps/1.jpg)
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: Tallpine on May 10, 2011, 10:49:44 AM
If I found all that on my car, I would probably call the bomb squad  :P
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on May 10, 2011, 10:55:47 AM
So the cylinder is a battery compartment (C-cells?) and the wire plugs into the right end.  Base is magnetized for rapid attachment.  Little grey box is GPS receiver, which feeds its data into the black box that transmits.  Black box is modified G3 cell phone or data modem?  Or a more proprietary interface for a tail car?
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: PTK on May 10, 2011, 11:06:43 AM
If I found all that on my car, I would probably call the bomb squad  :P

And here in Montana, there's a fair chance they'd take it off your car and blow it up.


...or just blow your car up. :lol:

AZRedhawk44,

Not C-Cells ("The device is powered by four lithium-thionyl chloride (Li-SOCl2) D cell batteries."), yes magnetized, the box is a transponder/transmitter that broadcasts via RF the GPS data to anyone caring to receive it. =|
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: CNYCacher on May 10, 2011, 11:14:44 AM
So the cylinder is a battery compartment (C-cells?) and the wire plugs into the right end.  Base is magnetized for rapid attachment.  Little grey box is GPS receiver, which feeds its data into the black box that transmits.  Black box is modified G3 cell phone or data modem?  Or a more proprietary interface for a tail car?

Based on my experience with GPS devices, I think the grey box to be a GPS antenna.  I think the entire works are inside the black box.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: PTK on May 10, 2011, 11:21:09 AM
Sorry, yes, gray box is antenna, black box is the transponder/transmitter for RF.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: TechMan on May 10, 2011, 12:09:35 PM


The magnets are pretty powerful themselves:
Quote
The components of the system are all attached to the tracked vehicle with extremely powerful magnets. Some were so stubbornly attached that they ripped out of the mounting brackets to forever remain stuck on the undercarriage of the host vehicle.

According to the battery manufacturer's website:
Quote
Lithium-thionyl chloride cells have a high energy density, partly because of their high nominal voltage of 3.6 V. Bobbin versions can reach 1220 Wh/L and 760 Wh/kg, for a capacity of 18.5 Ah at 3.6 V in D format. Because self-discharge is extremely low (less than 1% per year), this kind of cell can support long storage periods and achieve a service life of 10 to 20 years.

The GPS signal processor module:
Quote
The module providing the GPS signal processing on this device is a µ-blox GPS-MS1 that's sort of ancient in the realm of modern electronics.

It was released June 29, 1999!

It features an astonishing 0.125 MB of SRAM and 1 MB of flash memory.

Read the article....very interesting.  http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/05/gps-gallery/?pid=89&viewall=true (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/05/gps-gallery/?pid=89&viewall=true)

Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: roo_ster on May 10, 2011, 04:58:16 PM
Open up PO boxes in different placed around the country and ship it to them via various carriers and have it shipped back.  Or maybe between them. 

Fun with electronics!
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: KD5NRH on May 10, 2011, 07:12:36 PM
Open up PO boxes in different placed around the country and ship it to them via various carriers and have it shipped back.

Got any friends in the oil or transportation industry?  It would be entertaining to put it on a cargo ship or tanker.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: MechAg94 on May 10, 2011, 07:20:24 PM
I think just attaching it to a cross town metro bus would work best.  The police can watch it go round and round the city on its routes.  Maybe a garbage truck. 
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas on May 10, 2011, 07:25:10 PM
Got any friends in the oil or transportation industry?  It would be entertaining to put it on a cargo ship or tanker.
Ship it to a Nigerian prince.
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: erictank on May 11, 2011, 12:18:12 AM
Torn between the idea of reducing such a device (violently) to scraps of its component parts or disposing of it in trash or recycling ("Sir, subject's vehicle has been at 4618 West Ox Rd for 2 weeks now...").  I like the idea of getting it attached to a cop car or a local politician's ("Sir, subject's car is at the office of Rep. Gerry Connelly..."), but I know I wouldn't be capable of doing so without getting caught.

How this could even be BRIEFLY CONSIDERED to be legal is beyond me. [barf]
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 11, 2011, 01:19:09 AM
Since - in the United States - it is legal for a police officer to simply tail a person in public (this has always been strange to me) without limitation, the courts now seem to believe that any information that could have potentially been collated by having a person followed in public, is legal for police to collate.

Of course, there is a simple way to test this logic:

Suppose there would be enough police officers to tail every single American as they go through their daily rounds to work, college, night clubs, etc. Suppose further that this policy were enacted. Would the result be a free society?
Title: Re: Warrantless GPS-ing
Post by: Tallpine on May 11, 2011, 12:42:11 PM
Quote
Suppose there would be enough police officers to tail every single American as they go through their daily rounds to work, college, night clubs, etc. Suppose further that this policy were enacted. Would the result be a free society?

So all they have to do is require that your new GPS equipped car report its location constantly to a govt accessible real time data base.

Just punch in "Joe Subject" and see where he's at right at this moment, or where he's been.

You don't have anything to hide, do you  ???