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Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Chester32141 on January 31, 2012, 08:15:28 AM

Title: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Chester32141 on January 31, 2012, 08:15:28 AM

"For the first time, this morning in Georgia, the question of Obama’s eligibility to serve, became official ... "  [popcorn]

          http://www.thenationalpatriot.com/?p=4149
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Jamisjockey on January 31, 2012, 08:22:46 AM
Snort.

Even, even if......
He's already 3 years into his tenure.
He's already pushed us over our Debt/GDP ratio.
It'll get kicked to the back burner by the media until after the election.
What does it matter? 
And does anyone think for a minute the justice department would remove him?
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: dogmush on January 31, 2012, 08:27:17 AM
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/dogmush/stuffagain.jpg)

ETA:  So apparantly the profanity filter even works in IMG code.  Be careful what you name pics. :D
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on January 31, 2012, 09:42:04 AM
It may not matter today, but if he's re-elected you'll look back and remember the day...
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Jamie B on January 31, 2012, 10:13:16 AM
Quote
Anyway one looks at this, it is news.
Any way anyone with intelligence looks at this, it is small-minded bull*expletive deleted*e.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: wmenorr67 on January 31, 2012, 10:17:57 AM
Anyway anyone with intelligence looks at this, it is small-minded bull*expletive deleted*e.

Exactly, why don't we just make sure there is a better candidate and beat him at the polls.  This petty Bullspit is getting old. 
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: TommyGunn on January 31, 2012, 10:20:57 AM
I despise Obama as much as anyone, but the "conspiracy theory" behind his birthplace is one of the dumbest, stupidest, wastes of time, effort and breath I've ever encountered.  >:D

 
IT'S TIME TO LET IT GO!!!
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: SADShooter on January 31, 2012, 10:44:46 AM
I'm convinced there are embarrassing secrets we don't know. I'm also convinced that a) Obama's citizenship isn't one of them, and b) they won't be revealed until he's well out of office, if ever.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Perd Hapley on January 31, 2012, 11:16:22 AM
I despise Obama as much as anyone, but the "conspiracy theory" behind his birthplace is one of the dumbest, stupidest, wastes of time, effort and breath I've ever encountered.

According to the article, the proceedings in Georgia aren't about his place of birth.


Could someone explain how the citizenship challenges are small-minded or petty? Unfounded or counterfactual, I wouldn't argue with. But petty? How so?
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: TommyGunn on January 31, 2012, 11:28:42 AM
According to the article, the proceedings in Georgia aren't about his place of birth.


Could someone explain how the citizenship challenges are small-minded or petty? Unfounded or counterfactual, I wouldn't argue with. But petty? How so?
:facepalm:

It's the same ****** "conspiracy theory" being conflated with questions about Obama's father's nationality ....... [barf] [barf] [barf] [barf] :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: [tinfoil] [tinfoil] [tinfoil] [tinfoil] :facepalm: [barf] [barf] [barf]
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: roo_ster on January 31, 2012, 11:42:22 AM
According to the article, the proceedings in Georgia aren't about his place of birth.


Could someone explain how the citizenship challenges are small-minded or petty? Unfounded or counterfactual, I wouldn't argue with. But petty? How so?

I would also like an answer to this question that is not all juvenile barfy smilies or FONT GONE WILD!!!!111eleventy

For my own part, given that Obama's mother was an American citizen, the matter is closed.  But, eligibility for POTUS under the COTUS is hardly petty.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: TommyGunn on January 31, 2012, 12:38:05 PM
I would also like an answer to this question that is not all juvenile barfy smilies or FONT GONE WILD!!!!111eleventy

For my own part, given that Obama's mother was an American citizen, the matter is closed.  But, eligibility for POTUS under the COTUS is hardly petty.

Hey, they PUT optional font styles and barfy smilies on, I use 'em!  You don't have to read my posts. :-* [popcorn]
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: RocketMan on January 31, 2012, 01:53:56 PM
None of this matters a whit.  Obama will not be judged as constitutionally ineligible to hold the office, regardless of what evidence may exist (not a birther myself, I don't believe that crap).  It just ain't going to happen, and not for tinfoil hat reasons, either.  Think about it.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Fitz on January 31, 2012, 02:11:30 PM
Let's assume for a minute that he's not eligible. I don't personally side with the birthers, but for the sake of debate, let's say he's not.

NO ONE in power, not republicans, not democrats, house or senate, nor judicial, or anyone else in government, has a vested interest in admitting that someone unlawfully took the office of president.

Can you imagine the turmoil?
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: roo_ster on January 31, 2012, 03:55:04 PM
Hey, they PUT optional font styles and barfy smilies on, I use 'em!  You don't have to read my posts. :-* [popcorn]

Heh.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Jamisjockey on January 31, 2012, 04:08:08 PM
It may not matter today, but if he's re-elected you'll look back and remember the day...

Remember what day? The day that it gets swept under the rug by politicians who are too busy spending us into oblivion? Or the day the justice department drops the whole matter into a filing cabinet somewhere, never to be seen again?  Or the day the media tears down anyone who dares challenge his eligibility?
Obama will not be removed from office if deemed ineligible.  Mark the tapes, that is my prediction.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: lee n. field on January 31, 2012, 04:26:01 PM
Quote
Obama will not be removed from office if deemed ineligible.  Mark the tapes, that is my prediction.
   

It's four years too late to be asking these questions.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on January 31, 2012, 05:37:09 PM
Let's assume for a minute that he's not eligible. I don't personally side with the birthers, but for the sake of debate, let's say he's not.

NO ONE in power, not republicans, not democrats, house or senate, nor judicial, or anyone else in government, has a vested interest in admitting that someone unlawfully took the office of president.

Can you imagine the turmoil?


Yes, let's avoid "turmoil. " That should definitely be Priority One.

What the hell do you think the perps are counting on if not our apathy and deference to Authority?
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: seeker_two on January 31, 2012, 06:56:23 PM
So....as long as he's elected, the Constitutional elligibility requirements and rule of law don't matter.....

....if that's the case, the GOP should just run Ahnuld in the next election.....presidence and all.....
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: De Selby on January 31, 2012, 07:02:27 PM
This is a theory that's even dumber than the original birther theory - how on earth would the citizenship of Obama's parents have anything to do with his own?  He was born in the US; the Constitution is explicit. 

I'm not sure why these "patriots" are so eager to weasel out of the Constitution they profess to adore.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Fitz on January 31, 2012, 07:25:03 PM

Yes, let's avoid "turmoil. " That should definitely be Priority One.

What the hell do you think the perps are counting on if not our apathy and deference to Authority?


You and the Seeker_two are putting words in my mouth.

Read it again.

I never said that I thought we should "avoid turmoil" .....

I never said the rule of law doesn't matter.

I said the jerkoffs who run this country have a vested interest in avoiding the turmoil that would result from him being dethroned.

If there was any basis to the birthers' claims (which I don't believe to be the case anyhow), everyone in power would quietly sweep it under the rug.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: TommyGunn on January 31, 2012, 07:34:47 PM
This is a theory that's even dumber than the original birther theory - how on earth would the citizenship of Obama's parents have anything to do with his own?  He was born in the US; the Constitution is explicit. 

I'm not sure why these "patriots" are so eager to weasel out of the Constitution they profess to adore.
They're not trying to "weasel out of the Constitution,"  they just have a hard time believing that a loonie-lefty like Obama could actually be born in America, is all. [tinfoil] [popcorn]

In a way, can't say I blame them.  Doesn't stop me from wishing they'd go away, though........ ;/
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: RoadKingLarry on January 31, 2012, 07:41:13 PM
I'm convinced there are embarrassing secrets we don't know. I'm also convinced that a) Obama's citizenship isn't one of them, and b) they won't be revealed until he's well out of office, if ever.

I'd be much more interested in his academic records. Including the financials regarding student loans/grants as well as his GPA information.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: SADShooter on February 01, 2012, 09:53:45 AM
That's essentially what I was alluding to.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: HankB on February 01, 2012, 10:11:45 AM
 I don't know what the real story is about Obama's birth in Hawaii; there do seem to be the same kind of questions about Obama's released birth certificate copy that there were about the forged documents from a dead man that Dan Rather used in his attempt to influence an election.

Some kind of maskirovka?  Make something legitimate look suspicious, to divert people's attention from something that actually could be a real issue?

If there was any basis to the birthers' claims (which I don't believe to be the case anyhow), everyone in power would quietly sweep it under the rug.
Would . . . or is?  [tinfoil]
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: CNYCacher on February 01, 2012, 10:21:26 AM
This is a theory that's even dumber than the original birther theory - how on earth would the citizenship of Obama's parents have anything to do with his own?  He was born in the US; the Constitution is explicit. 

I'm not sure why these "patriots" are so eager to weasel out of the Constitution they profess to adore.

Their theory is that he was not actually born in the US.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: MicroBalrog on February 01, 2012, 10:30:36 AM
Quote
I'm not sure why these "patriots" are so eager to weasel out of the Constitution they profess to adore.

Because some people believe the Constitution contains inside it magic IWIN buttons they can mash, secret phrases they will invoke - and then their political enemies will just go away.

The Constitution does not work like that.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: wmenorr67 on February 01, 2012, 10:50:59 AM
Their theory is that he was not actually born in the US.

Part of the new theory is that citizenship is passed on by the father and since his father wasn't a US citizen he can't be.  Using that theory he is Muslim because the Islamic faith states that the religious beliefs of the father are what are carried on.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: TommyGunn on February 01, 2012, 10:59:36 AM
Because some people believe the Constitution contains inside it magic IWIN buttons they can mash, secret phrases they will invoke - and then their political enemies will just go away.

The Constitution does not work like that.
[tinfoil]  I know no one who thinks that ....  maybe they're too ashamed of themselves to reveal themselves to me ...... :laugh: ......  [tinfoil]............... :angel:
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: CNYCacher on February 01, 2012, 11:08:24 AM
Part of the new theory is that citizenship is passed on by the father and since his father wasn't a US citizen he can't be.  Using that theory he is Muslim because the Islamic faith states that the religious beliefs of the father are what are carried on.

If he wasn't born in the US, then it would be true that if his father wasn't a citizen, then he can't be.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas on February 01, 2012, 01:23:03 PM
Part of the new theory is that citizenship is passed on by the father and since his father wasn't a US citizen he can't be.  Using that theory he is Muslim because the Islamic faith states that the religious beliefs of the father are what are carried on.
[/qu [popcorn]ote]
Yes, something like that. Go to WND and see Joe Farah's articles on the subject for more. Read other articles by another writer on WND (Cashill?) to find that Obama is a gay Kenyan Muslim.  [popcorn]
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: BryanP on February 02, 2012, 08:45:29 PM
Part of the new theory is that citizenship is passed on by the father and since his father wasn't a US citizen he can't be.  Using that theory he is Muslim because the Islamic faith states that the religious beliefs of the father are what are carried on.

I spend 5 days a week in a small office with a reasonably nice guy who is absolutely convinced that Obama was born in Kenya and is a "secret Muslim".  Please, make it stop.  ;/
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Jamisjockey on February 02, 2012, 08:57:44 PM
If he wasn't born in the US, then it would be true that if his father wasn't a citizen, then he can't be.


Then how in the *expletive deleted*ck do we have several millions of anchor babies in this country?  If this is true, then there are millions of them we need to start rounding up and sending south. 
This argument won't stick.  Even if it does, he could have a second term under his belt before it gets wrangled out of the courts. 
Its a distraction, an annoyance, and just plain idiotic.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: sumpnz on February 03, 2012, 12:34:57 AM
As I understand all of the arguments, those trying to have him DQ'd say one or more of the following:
1) He wasn't really born in HI
2) Even if he was, his mom being <18 and his dad being Kenyan means he's not "natural born"
3) Even he was "natural born" he gave up his citizenship when his mom moved to Indonesia (the argument here is that the schools he went to required Indonesian citizenship, his step-father was Indonesian and had him naturalized there)
4) Even if he was natural born, and didn't become an Indonesian citizen his actions as a young man indicate an intent to not represent himself as an American citizen (trip to Pakistan, etc), natural born or otherwise, and therefore he had to have given up such a claim even for later in life.

Item 1 is not ever going to be accepted by our courts - his birth certificate as released will ensure that.  Item 2 won't be accepted either.  The courts would just say that since he was born in HI and the general legal opinion is that constitutes "natural born" he's therefore eligible.  Item 3 would be argued away by saying his parents just bribed the right officials, so he never gave up his citizenship to naturalize in Indonesia.  And even if "proof" was dredged up they'd find way to wave their hands and make it go away or be ruled bogus.  Item 4 is even easier for any half-decent lawyer to argue past.

All of this is to say that even if all the conspiracy theories got their day for a legitimate hearing in court Obama will never be ruled ineligible.  So all the arguments are moot.

What cracks me up though is all the birthers now claiming that Rubio and Jindal are not eligible either because they were "native born" but not "natural born" citizens.  And yet not a single one ever points to anywhere in American law that a distinction is made between the two terms.  They claim "native born" means born on US soil to non-citizen parents.  "Natural born" is defined by them as born in US jurisdiction to 2 citizen parents.  But again, they can't seem to cite where such terms are defined either in statue or SCOTUS precedent. 
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Fly320s on February 03, 2012, 07:53:59 AM
Then how in the *expletive deleted* do we have several millions of anchor babies in this country?  If this is true, then there are millions of them we need to start rounding up and sending south. 
This argument won't stick.  Even if it does, he could have a second term under his belt before it gets wrangled out of the courts. 
Its a distraction, an annoyance, and just plain idiotic.

Read it again, J.  CNYC said Obama can't be a citizen if his father wasn't and Obama was born outside the US.

Anchor babies are born in the US. They are immediatly US citizens even though their parents are not.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 03, 2012, 10:23:59 AM
The birther conspiracy is symptomatic of the pervasive feeling that Americans have become aliens in an occupied nation.  It is an inarticulate and ill-reasoned protest against the very real and very deliberate insanity foisted upon the American culture by men (and policies) who have yet to be specifically identified. 
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: TommyGunn on February 03, 2012, 10:41:38 AM
I thought the "birther conspiracies" were symptomatic of the fact that America is just plain going full-blown retard ....... :facepalm: [barf]
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas on February 03, 2012, 12:28:31 PM
Sumpnz: nice breakdown. As I recall, they get their peculiar definition of natural born from an English author in the 1700s. It was from a law commentary on English law.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 03, 2012, 12:50:49 PM
Obama IS an alien but not by virtue of his natal venue or even his family.  Of course he's alien with plenty of alien allies within our own country and especially our own power structure.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: HankB on February 03, 2012, 01:02:46 PM
Obama IS an alien but not by virtue of his natal venue or even his family.  Of course he's alien with plenty of alien allies within our own country and especially our own power structure.
Yep.

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpd5uAUGKrWduWLYUyoHEJFOZFSu6RXZ9dAqyyWmFANZr2heZb1w)
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: BryanP on February 03, 2012, 06:38:37 PM
I thought the "birther conspiracies" were symptomatic of the fact that America is just plain going full-blown retard ....... :facepalm: [barf]

This.  Very much this.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Jamisjockey on February 03, 2012, 08:24:00 PM
Obama IS an alien but not by virtue of his natal venue or even his family.  Of course he's alien with plenty of alien allies within our own country and especially our own power structure.

Huh, what?  I mean, WTF are you talking about? 


Read it again, J.  CNYC said Obama can't be a citizen if his father wasn't and Obama was born outside the US.

Anchor babies are born in the US. They are immediatly US citizens even though their parents are not.

I just don't think they're going to prove that he was even born outside the US.  This stuff appeals to the mouth breathing backwoods masses who think he's a mooslim suicide bomber or some *expletive deleted*it. 
Hell, he's a known socialist.  I think that's bad enough.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 03, 2012, 11:14:03 PM
Huh, what?  I mean, WTF are you talking about? 

Quote
Hell, he's a known socialist.  I think that's bad enough.


You answered your own question. The problem with Obama is not his Kenyan or Indonesian or Muslim background; it's his European socialist ideas that are alien to historically American ideals. I believe that is more or less what longeyes meant.

Though it is longeyes, so who really knows what he means.  =|

Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 04, 2012, 09:28:15 PM
What the esteemed and beloved Longeyes meant was clear enough, and, mirabile dictu, even Fistful noted it.  :)  To wit: Obama is a cultural alien, outside the American (or what at least used to be the American) mainstream culture. 
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: MicroBalrog on February 07, 2012, 03:28:09 AM
This.  Very much this.

How is this different from any of te other conspiracy theories popular in America starting with the 19th century?
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 07, 2012, 07:54:13 AM
How is this different from any of te other conspiracy theories popular in America starting with the 19th century?

An interesting question. The Declaration of Independence itself may be accused of conspiracy-mongering. "When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism..."
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Jamisjockey on February 07, 2012, 09:30:55 AM
What the esteemed and beloved Longeyes meant was clear enough, and, mirabile dictu, even Fistful noted it.  :)  To wit: Obama is a cultural alien, outside the American (or what at least used to be the American) mainstream culture. 

That would have been true maybe 50 years ago.  But people who don't wish to be told what to do and how to do it by uncle sam are becoming the minority.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: wmenorr67 on February 07, 2012, 10:48:25 AM
That would have been true maybe 50 years ago.  But people who don't wish to be told what to do and how to do it by uncle sam are becoming the minority.

Because too many of them like the free money they are getting.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Jamisjockey on February 07, 2012, 11:55:53 AM
Because too many of them like the free money they are getting.

Exactly.  The rise of "compassionate conservatisim" for example.  Everyone wants on the gravy train, very few want off.  The only difference between (R)'s and (D)'s is who they are letting on the gravy train and how they want to "pay" for it.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 07, 2012, 12:54:55 PM
You're right: two Americas, the legacy of the last half-century of The (Alleged) Great Society.  I hate to bring up the S-word again, but if you have a solution other than a separatist one, I'd really love to hear it.  Good Americans sat by while people with an agenda transformed America right under their noses, not only culturally but demographically, since the '60s and now America One is faced with thinking the unthinkable.  Well, maybe it isn't so unthinkable, just unpalatable.  When things get bad enough--and they are damn close to that now--our minds will become more flexible is my bet.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: MicroBalrog on February 07, 2012, 02:16:57 PM
Because too many of them like the free money they are getting.

And the power to tell others what to do, don't forget.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Jamisjockey on February 07, 2012, 02:59:41 PM
You're right: two Americas, the legacy of the last half-century of The (Alleged) Great Society.  I hate to bring up the S-word again, but if you have a solution other than a separatist one, I'd really love to hear it.  Good Americans sat by while people with an agenda transformed America right under their noses, not only culturally but demographically, since the '60s and now America One is faced with thinking the unthinkable.  Well, maybe it isn't so unthinkable, just unpalatable.  When things get bad enough--and they are damn close to that now--our minds will become more flexible is my bet.

Look at the laws of almost every state government and they are as or even more onerous than the federal government.  Really secession would just mean my wealth being redistributed closer to home to the exact same entitlement class and corporations on the dole.
Personally, I think the republic has outlived its usefulness.  We're merely going through the motions at this point, and long overdue for a new form of government.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: wmenorr67 on February 07, 2012, 03:03:11 PM
There is nothing wrong with our form of government.  The problem lies with the execution of it.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 07, 2012, 04:55:08 PM
Look at the laws of almost every state government and they are as or even more onerous than the federal government.  Really secession would just mean my wealth being redistributed closer to home to the exact same entitlement class and corporations on the dole.
Personally, I think the republic has outlived its usefulness.  We're merely going through the motions at this point, and long overdue for a new form of government.

What do you propose?

It appears to me that the only viable counter to Big State--if we rule out a Constitutional Republic--is some kind of small-scale tribalism, a form of homogeneous polity with cultural unity. 
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Jamisjockey on February 07, 2012, 06:06:28 PM
Unanimous republic, where laws may only be passed by the unanimous consent of the houses and signed by the president.  Presidential power must be eliminated to only the power of the signature or veto.  Anything short will be groundhog day.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: MicroBalrog on February 07, 2012, 06:19:27 PM
The Constitution works quite fine, and would work better if people wanted it to.

The problem is at the least, most Americans - most people! - either actively support the welfare state, or tolerate it due to prioritizing other concerns over its abolition.

If you rearrange the formal political constitution you will

a) get a constitution that's a product of this mindset

b) at the best, do no better.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Jamisjockey on February 07, 2012, 06:24:55 PM
The Constitution works quite fine, and would work better if people wanted it to.

The problem is at the least, most Americans - most people! - either actively support the welfare state, or tolerate it due to prioritizing other concerns over its abolition.

If you rearrange the formal political constitution you will

a) get a constitution that's a product of this mindset

b) at the best, do no better.

Agreed.  And at this point, secession will only create a bunch of mini welfare states.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: DittoHead on February 07, 2012, 07:00:47 PM
There is nothing wrong with our form of government.  The problem lies with the execution of it.

People also say this about communism.  :'(
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 08, 2012, 12:40:29 AM
Unanimous republic, where laws may only be passed by the unanimous consent of the houses and signed by the president.  Presidential power must be eliminated to only the power of the signature or veto.  Anything short will be groundhog day.

We had something like that in the Articles of Confederation. It worked so well that Washington, et al, moved to replace it almost immediately. In fact, they spent a long, hot summer putting their heads together to come up with something better than unanimity. And they couldn't even all agree on that!

Requiring unanimity would be a disaster.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: MicroBalrog on February 08, 2012, 02:12:06 AM
We had something like that in the Articles of Confederation. It worked so well that Washington, et al, moved to replace it almost immediately. In fact, they spent a long, hot summer putting their heads together to come up with something better than unanimity. And they couldn't even all agree on that!


The need for a Constitution was not a consensus at the time. It was at razor's edge that it was accomplished.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 08, 2012, 08:35:02 AM
The need for a Constitution was not a consensus at the time. It was at razor's edge that it was accomplished.



You mean the need for a new constitution? Yes. It is also true that the old constitution wasn't ratified until the early 1780s. And by 1787, there was already a (successful) movement to replace it.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: roo_ster on February 08, 2012, 09:46:39 AM
Personally, I think the republic has outlived its usefulness.  We're merely going through the motions at this point, and long overdue for a new form of government.

There is nothing wrong with our form of government.  The problem lies with the execution of it.

It is not the form of government that is the problem, it is that Americans have degenerated, spent their cultural capital, and then let in a bunch of folks for whom our traditional form of gov't is alien.

Any sort of limited gov't is impossible without people first having some discipline and governing their own selves.  It is no coincidence that gov't has grown as personal virtue has declined.  They are parts of the same problem and addressing one without the other is doomed to failure.

Unanimous republic, where laws may only be passed by the unanimous consent of the houses and signed by the president.  Presidential power must be eliminated to only the power of the signature or veto.  Anything short will be groundhog day.

Articles of Confederation, which were under-rated, IMO.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: MicroBalrog on February 08, 2012, 09:14:22 PM
Quote
Any sort of limited gov't is impossible without people first having some discipline and governing their own selves.  It is no coincidence that gov't has grown as personal virtue has declined.  They are parts of the same problem and addressing one without the other is doomed to failure.

In any reasonable measure, a modern Alabama resident is an epic paragon of virtue compared to a white Alabaman in 1860.  And indeed America is freer in many ways than it was, say, in 1970.

Government size is not the sole measure of freedom. But let us take government expenditure as a measure.

Let's compare America of today to Nixon's America.

Where are the price controls?
Where is the Interstate Commerce Commission (introduced by the oh-so-moral people in 1887)?
Where's the top 70% income tax rate?

The issue here is not to compare Nixon with Obama. On the state level, I will just utter three letters: C.C.W.

But more to the point, attitudes all over America are improving on major issues:

Drugs:

(http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/f9nyco05-um-ww_mfbuo9q.gif)

Guns:
(http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/n9ggmdee1k60atawqdbprq.gif)

Role of government:
(http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/rtebypcch0aze9sfaenfqq.gif)
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: MicroBalrog on February 08, 2012, 09:16:02 PM

You mean the need for a new constitution? Yes. It is also true that the old constitution wasn't ratified until the early 1780s. And by 1787, there was already a (successful) movement to replace it.

Yes, we know this. But [while I prefer the constitution] I don't think it's altogether 'not debatable' that the Federalists were right. Certainly they turned out to be wrong about many of their predictions.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 09, 2012, 12:36:36 AM
Yes, we know this. But [while I prefer the constitution] I don't think it's altogether 'not debatable' that the Federalists were right. Certainly they turned out to be wrong about many of their predictions.


I don't think I suggested that. I was just pointing out that we tried to require a unanimous vote once upon a time, but we very quickly ratified something else. That's not a rock-solid proof that unanimity was bad, just a fairly telling indicator.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 09, 2012, 01:44:48 AM
Too bad Gallup's polls do not reflect the political, social, and cultural realities of America in 2012.

"It is not the form of government that is the problem, it is that Americans have degenerated, spent their cultural capital, and then let in a bunch of folks for whom our traditional form of gov't is alien.

Any sort of limited gov't is impossible without people first having some discipline and governing their own selves.  It is no coincidence that gov't has grown as personal virtue has declined.  They are parts of the same problem and addressing one without the other is doomed to failure."

This. 

Secession need not produce mini-welfare states.  It could--I say could--permit the citizen to separate from the parasite.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Jamisjockey on February 09, 2012, 07:21:21 AM
Too bad Gallup's polls do not reflect the political, social, and cultural realities of America in 2012.

"It is not the form of government that is the problem, it is that Americans have degenerated, spent their cultural capital, and then let in a bunch of folks for whom our traditional form of gov't is alien.

Any sort of limited gov't is impossible without people first having some discipline and governing their own selves.  It is no coincidence that gov't has grown as personal virtue has declined.  They are parts of the same problem and addressing one without the other is doomed to failure."

This. 

Secession need not produce mini-welfare states.  It could--I say could--permit the citizen to separate from the parasite.


Good luck with that.  You dare think that they will let the producer class off the hook? Ha!
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 09, 2012, 11:25:06 AM
No, of course they won't.  The parasite requires its host.  True enough.  But that's where the sobriety and lack of ruth come in, the will to survive, the ability to overcome the indoctrination and propaganda to do what's necessary.  They will cling to us with sticky fingers and a dead man's grip until we finally get real about what it takes.

I think smaller government is the only answer, and it must be small enough to reach out and touch someone.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: wmenorr67 on February 09, 2012, 12:10:07 PM
And what is stopping a group of people from finding some uninhabited island somewhere and starting anew?
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Blakenzy on February 09, 2012, 12:30:26 PM
Quote
And what is stopping a group of people from finding some uninhabited island somewhere and starting anew?

The USN of course  :lol:

You WILL pay taxes whether you like it or not, where ever you are, if you hold anything of commercial value...
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 09, 2012, 12:45:37 PM
I was informed by a "close associate" that her retirement check can no longer be direct-deposited to a bank abroad.  Well, there goes the good life in Cambodia...
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: AmbulanceDriver on February 09, 2012, 01:34:15 PM
In my opinion, nothing and I mean nothing will change until the average person realizes that the welfare class in this country is truly a parasite.  Until they finally say, "ENOUGH!"  Some states have taken that first step, recognizing that the leeches really are sucking them dry, and are now at least trying to require drug testing for welfare recipients.  The next step I think will be limiting programs such as food stamps/SNAP etc. to basic staples and more nutritional foods.  I don't care if you want to buy a couple pounds of a decent cut of meat.  But filet mignon?  NOT ON MY DIME! (And yes, I've personally seen that).  Fish, shellfish, shrimp?  Yeah, I'm not so worried about that.  Lobster tails??  Hell no!  Sodas, juice drinks, junk food?  Hell no!

Oh, and as long as you are receiving any form of government assistance, you WILL be on birth control.  PERIOD.  I don't give a flying [censored] if you feel that violates your rights.  Want to have children, get your ass off my dime...


(sorry, woke up a little grumpy this morning when I realized once again just how much of my money goes to support these leeches.)
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Blakenzy on February 09, 2012, 02:18:13 PM
The problem is that big government LOVES dishing out welfare, because it is yet another mechanism of control over the population. In fact, the more people on welfare, the larger the segment of society that is at the mercy of the rulers... It is also a scumbag method of maintaining the masses quiet and content. It's hush money. That's why no one does anything about the abuse of welfare you described.. who cares what ridiculous stuff they spend it on as long as they aren't barking at the hand that feeds them... wouldn't want to make people unhappy and restless, now would they?
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 09, 2012, 03:25:42 PM
Well, either they get restless or we do, isn't that what it's come down to?

It's an analog, to me, of the illegal alien situation.  Either we deport them or we, de facto, deport ourselves and our way of life.

Choose.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Blakenzy on February 09, 2012, 04:17:50 PM
Ha! People on welfare riot, apparently the taxpaying, law abiding citizen does not. Who do you think gets the s**t end of the government stick? Just hold your nose and keep on voting in scumbag after scumbag, and then wonder "why we so screwed?".
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 09, 2012, 06:29:16 PM
Ha! People on welfare riot, apparently the taxpaying, law abiding citizen does not. Who do you think gets the s**t end of the government stick? Just hold your nose and keep on voting in scumbag after scumbag, and then wonder "why we so screwed?".

Your solution?
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Blakenzy on February 09, 2012, 09:10:40 PM
I see no practical solution. It's just going to have to keep on going until our Welfare State collapses by itself, under it's own weight, which it eventually will, in a long drawn out, painful, pathetic sort of way.

Ideally, we would all wake up enlightened one day and perform a complete rollover of government. Vote out, recall and replace EVERYONE on Capitol Hill in a concerted nationwide move. All at once. And by everyone I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRIr9MNmCwU

But that's a pipe dream, so no practical fix I can see. Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: dogmush on February 09, 2012, 09:40:40 PM
Is there some overpowering reason we can't repeal the welfare state one program at a time over the course of years, the way it was instituted? (Ideally a little faster)

I mean seriously, if we have time for a long drawn out collapse, we have time for small gains, then point out the world didn't end and people aren't dieing in the streets, and some more gains.  You know: incremental politics.

I swear to God this board hosts some of the giving up-ist folks.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: MechAg94 on February 09, 2012, 09:43:21 PM
Is there some overpowering reason we can't repeal the welfare state one program at a time over the course of years, the way it was instituted? (Ideally a little faster)

I mean seriously, if we have time for a long drawn out collapse, we have time for small gains, then point out the world didn't end and people aren't dieing in the streets, and some more gains.  You know: incremental politics.

I swear to God this board hosts some of the giving up-ist folks.
The main reason we can't is the failure to elect politicians willing to do so.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 09, 2012, 10:15:30 PM
Eliminate baseline budgeting.  Then cut the Federal budget across the board five per cent a year until we run a surplus.  Lower tax rates on small business owners, savers, investors.

Can we get a critical mass in the electorate to back such initiatives?

And if we can't what do we do about it?
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: MicroBalrog on February 10, 2012, 01:09:10 AM
This would not resolve the issue. Indeed, neither would balancing the budget.

The debt is a distraction.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 10, 2012, 09:41:23 AM
This would not resolve the issue. Indeed, neither would balancing the budget.

The debt is a distraction.

The debt is a distraction?  I'd say it's a symptom of the much deeper social, cultural, and demographic issues in America that you continue to insist don't really matter.  How many times have you told us that America is in fine shape when patently it is not?
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 10, 2012, 10:12:17 AM
I see no practical solution. It's just going to have to keep on going until our Welfare State collapses by itself, under it's own weight, which it eventually will, in a long drawn out, painful, pathetic sort of way.

Ideally, we would all wake up enlightened one day and perform a complete rollover of government. Vote out, recall and replace EVERYONE on Capitol Hill in a concerted nationwide move. All at once. And by everyone I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRIr9MNmCwU

But that's a pipe dream, so no practical fix I can see. Your thoughts?

I think you're probably right.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 10, 2012, 10:13:32 AM
Maybe we need to describe more closely what "collapse" really looks like...?
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: TommyGunn on February 10, 2012, 10:42:26 AM
This would not resolve the issue. Indeed, neither would balancing the budget.

The debt is a distraction.
$15,000,000,000,000+++++  is a helluva distraction...... :mad:

"All debts come due sometime,"  and what is going to happen is, as this debt accrues, it will become more difficult to service, and eventually impossible to service, then the "house of cards" comes crashing down.......and then there will be "a hot time in the ol' town tonight!!"
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 10, 2012, 10:56:18 AM
Any hope of resolving our debt problem will entail becoming a moral, honorable, and sober people.  I admit I do not see, right now, enough Americans qualifying to attain the critical mass we require for continuing national integrity.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: roo_ster on February 10, 2012, 01:43:20 PM
Any hope of resolving our debt problem will entail becoming a moral, honorable, and sober people.  I admit I do not see, right now, enough Americans qualifying to attain the critical mass we require for continuing national integrity.

Both the UK and the USA have been in tight spots before, where the culture's morals had degenerated to the point they ate at the foundation of the nations' stability and prosperity.  Both were bolstered and/or turned around by a couple of Great Awakenings of Christian and moral revival.

So, it can happen.  It just might make the christophobes break out in hives.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 10, 2012, 04:41:09 PM
I think you are right.  Some form of Great Awakening is probably our best--and only--hope.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Harold Tuttle on February 10, 2012, 04:45:26 PM
feh, unleash the nukes and pave the way to prosperity with glass

;)
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: MicroBalrog on February 11, 2012, 12:33:02 AM
Any hope of resolving our debt problem will entail becoming a moral, honorable, and sober people.  I admit I do not see, right now, enough Americans qualifying to attain the critical mass we require for continuing national integrity.

There's plenty of nations that have a balanced - or near-balanced  - budget, yet you would never want to live there.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: TommyGunn on February 11, 2012, 12:39:47 AM
There's plenty of nations that have a balanced - or near-balanced  - budget, yet you would never want to live there.

There's plenty of places I wouldn't want to live, and I wouldn't have to examine their budgetary policies to come to that conclusion.  That doesn't mean I think we can keep on digging America's fiscal hole deeper and deeper.
This country can easily turn into someplace where I wouldn't want to live.
Except, here I am....... :'( :facepalm: :mad:
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Azrael256 on February 11, 2012, 01:16:18 AM
I threw up in my mouth a little when I typed this, but Micro is probably right.

The debt might as well be eleventeen bajillion dollars for all the difference it makes.  We will either monetize or default.  The debt will not be paid back.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: MicroBalrog on February 11, 2012, 01:21:25 AM
Well, it is possible to have a balanced budget, and then economic grwoth will gradually overtake the debt.

But that will not solve the major social and political problems America is facing.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: sumpnz on February 11, 2012, 01:54:14 AM
Well, it is possible to have a balanced budget, and then economic grwoth will gradually overtake the debt.

But that will not solve the major social and political problems America is facing.

Of course it won't solve the problems.  But getting control of our budget and actually paying down the debt sure as hell won't hurt our ability to solve said problems.

Under Coolidge the overall size of the .gov was significantly reduced, and around 1/4 of the national debt paid off.  Another president that accomplished that would make me want to repeal the 22nd Amendment.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Blakenzy on February 11, 2012, 10:28:01 AM
Get this straight, the US has "sovereign debt", not "sovereign currency". Since we do not  have monetary sovereignty, we have to "borrow" Federal Reserve notes (AKA Dollars) into existence, with interest, from the Federal Reserve. The Government borrows dollars by issuing Government bonds, bonds that carry a interest rate obligation.

Every dollar in circulation then represents a debt to be payed back, with interest. The Government needs to "create" more dollars to pay back the interest on the dollars it just borrowed. And how are these new dollars created?

Government can't print them, gave up that right a hundred years ago... but it can trade interest-laden bonds for them. They could also get them from the existing dollars in public circulation by perpetually hiking up tax rates, but that just leads to political turmoil. So they are created quietly by borrowing more dollars from the Fed, through bond issuing, each new dollar with its respective interest rate attached... which needs to be payed with yet more new dollars, which also have their own interest rates attached.. You need perpetual, exponential growth to cover that sort of loan deal.

How can a country get out of debt when the currency it is forced to use is based on debt?
 
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: TommyGunn on February 11, 2012, 11:02:59 AM
Well, it is possible to have a balanced budget, and then economic grwoth will gradually overtake the debt.

But that will not solve the major social and political problems America is facing.
???

I wish the universe were so simple that solving one problem will solve all problems.  But it's not.
We'll just have to do it one problem at a time. :police: >:D [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] :angel:
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 11, 2012, 11:54:52 AM
There's plenty of nations that have a balanced - or near-balanced  - budget, yet you would never want to live there.

Do I have to say that we are not talking about a balanced or nearly balanced budget?--that we are talking about what amounts to insane profligacy, about debts that can never be paid off?

And this is about more than economics.  You don't get to where we are now just by being a bad budgeter, you get here by being a liar, a swindler, a pimp, an addict, and a reprobate, all of that sugarcoated and sold to us in digestible syllabubs by people who know exactly what they are doing.

Free societies require virtue.  Increasingly, as a people, we lack it.  Either we figure out a way to restore it or we will perish...or wish we had.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: MicroBalrog on February 11, 2012, 01:36:56 PM
We are not talking about debts that can never be paid off, for reasons I've outlined.

But more to the point, there's no real proof that only monogamous Calvinists can build a free society.

Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: longeyes on February 11, 2012, 01:49:27 PM
I'm sure non-monogamous non-Calvinists can achieve freedom.  The question is...for how many days? =D

Sustainable liberty requires virtue.  And no one mentioned Calvinism or monogamy except you.
 
I'd like to hear your debt retirement plan.  Really I would.  You are of course aware we have a regime in place that is far more interested in wealth redistribution than economic growth, for starters.

Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: gunsmith on February 11, 2012, 10:54:08 PM
The main thing we are forgetting is that B.O's Birth Cert was a new issue copy of the original long form.
The original long form cert says he is a Muslim, it also says he has horns and a tail.

None of those disqualify him from the Oval Office though.

I'm not as concerned with domestic welfare as I am with foreign welfare, we have to many illegals sending money home and taking our jobs. We give untold millions to wealthy countries whose citizens have a better standard of living then we do.

For instance, I love Ireland-lived there two yrs, a pretty decent economy, the only homeless there are folks to drunk to make it home to sleep it off, no hunger either, their welfare class live like kings when compared to our minimum wage people. WHY ARE WE GIVING THEM SO MUCH MONEY???

Why are we building Mosques in the middle east ( I heard Saudi Arabia but have not verified)?
Why build roads and hospitals in other countries ??  No European country should be getting our money, Iraq, Libya etc should be sending us boatloads.

When we stop funding euro welfare, when Nancy Pelosi & the rest stops getting rich off insider trading then lets cut the paltry pittance ( in comparison ) the wino's and welfare moms are getting
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Jamisjockey on February 12, 2012, 10:20:11 AM
Actual "welfare" is the tip of the iceberg.  Unfounded obligations including SS, medicare/medicaid, and federal pensions are almost 1/3 of the federal budget.
Title: Re: Full analysis of Obama Eligibility Hearing ...
Post by: Chester32141 on February 12, 2012, 05:39:01 PM
An addendum to the original post ...

http://www.wnd.com/2012/02/why-wasnt-obama-in-contempt-of-court/

Quote
" .... Frankly, I was unimpressed with the presidential defense in pre-hearing arguments. For example, Jablonski tried to deflect the Social Security issue – which, after all, raises serious questions of fraud – by pointing out that “nothing in the Constitution makes … participating in Social Security a prerequisite to serving as president.” .... "