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Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Blakenzy on February 05, 2013, 09:20:52 AM

Title: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Blakenzy on February 05, 2013, 09:20:52 AM
This Department of Justice White Paper says when:

Lawfulness of a Lethal Operation Directed Against a U.S. Citizen who is a Senior Operational Leader of Al Qa’ida or An Associated Force
http://www.scribd.com/doc/123883608/Lawfulness-of-a-Lethal-Operation-Directed-Against-a-U-S-Citizen-who-is-a-Senior-Operational-Leader-of-Al-Qa%E2%80%99ida-or-An-Associated-Force

Read for details.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on February 05, 2013, 09:36:26 AM
Yay Patriot Act!  America, *expletive deleted*ck yeah!  Coming to save the emmereffing day yeah!

U-S-A!  U-S-A!

 =|


This is NOT who we are supposed to be.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: charby on February 05, 2013, 09:42:25 AM
I remember in the 2004 election cycle I tried to get a plank on the Iowa GOP platform to abolish the Patriot Act and I couldn't get one person to agree with me on why we should do it.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Ben on February 05, 2013, 09:57:10 AM
It's amazing how many otherwise sane Republicans toss logic to the wind if the word "patriot" is involved. "It's the Patriot Act! Are you not patriotic?!?"

The same people who rag on liberals for nanny-statism have no problem using the "it's for our safety" slogan when it comes to the Patriot Act.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Kingcreek on February 05, 2013, 10:00:26 AM
Once they can justify killing the first American, the next few (thousand?) should be easier.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 05, 2013, 10:06:13 AM
guy named bert or burt brandenberg wrote a piece during the clinton regime about assassination and its non legality for foreign leaders    maybe one of you can find it
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: drewtam on February 05, 2013, 03:19:17 PM
So this is an aspect of Bush and Obama's war policies that don't get me upset.

If a citizen is on foreign soil and is in an enemy war camp (not reasonably able to be captured, as the legal docs put it); then attacking and killing said person in the course of war operations is expected. If they are making war on the US from a foreign location, then it is nonsensical to try and send in the FBI to foreign soil for a raid.

Maybe the current legal situation lacks checks and balances / oversight; but that is an entirely different argument. It seems the current argument is calling the drone assassinations completely illegitimate on the face.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: roo_ster on February 05, 2013, 04:14:44 PM
Waterboarding foreign killers = war crime
Killing Americans with drones = humanitarian
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on February 05, 2013, 04:21:36 PM
So this is an aspect of Bush and Obama's war policies that don't get me upset.

If a citizen is on foreign soil and is in an enemy war camp (not reasonably able to be captured, as the legal docs put it); then attacking and killing said person in the course of war operations is expected. If they are making war on the US from a foreign location, then it is nonsensical to try and send in the FBI to foreign soil for a raid.

Maybe the current legal situation lacks checks and balances / oversight; but that is an entirely different argument. It seems the current argument is calling the drone assassinations completely illegitimate on the face.

Keep in mind, drewtam, that everyone ra-ra'ed the Patriot Act in 2001, weighing it only on the merits of its immediate utility rather than the liabilities of its most malicious mis-use.

Now we see what a DHS can do with it when classifying bitter-clingers as turr'ists.

Do you really want to let this one also slide, and see the scope of this drone warfare document expanded to domestic operations against bitter-clinger turr'ists?
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: HankB on February 05, 2013, 04:25:58 PM
 [tinfoil]
 "They" took care of JFK, RFK, Marilyn Monroe, Ron Brown, Vicky Weaver, and Vince Foster without benefit of drones or the Patriot Act. (Maybe Jimmy Hoffa, too.)
 [tinfoil]
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: RevDisk on February 05, 2013, 04:46:54 PM
So this is an aspect of Bush and Obama's war policies that don't get me upset.

If a citizen is on foreign soil and is in an enemy war camp (not reasonably able to be captured, as the legal docs put it); then attacking and killing said person in the course of war operations is expected. If they are making war on the US from a foreign location, then it is nonsensical to try and send in the FBI to foreign soil for a raid.

Maybe the current legal situation lacks checks and balances / oversight; but that is an entirely different argument. It seems the current argument is calling the drone assassinations completely illegitimate on the face.

Meh. My policy is simple. If anyone kills a US citizen without self-defense provisions being involved or due process, they're a threat to our country. Even if you try to apply "He Needed Killing" defense, which I warrant is sometimes necessary and justified, still doesn't apply to Abdulrahman al-Aulaqi. Dude was 16, and no one credibly claims he was a militant. Basically, just that he was related to a suspected bad guy.


Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 05, 2013, 04:51:24 PM
still doesn't apply to Abdulrahman al-Aulaqi. Dude was 16, and no one credibly claims he was a militant. Basically, just that he was related to a suspected bad guy.


there is that sticky part there
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: RevDisk on February 05, 2013, 04:54:25 PM
still doesn't apply to Abdulrahman al-Aulaqi. Dude was 16, and no one credibly claims he was a militant. Basically, just that he was related to a suspected bad guy.


there is that sticky part there

If either of us killed a bystander while doing something lawful, we're going to jail for involuntary manslaughter at a minimum. Standard should apply to anyone assassinating US citizens. Not that it's a great idea to start with.

Seriously, this doesn't even qualify for "slippery slope". Intentionally assassinating US citizens with no oversight or due process is NOT kosher by any definition.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Ron on February 05, 2013, 05:01:11 PM
Quote
still doesn't apply to Abdulrahman al-Aulaqi. Dude was 16, and no one credibly claims he was a militant. Basically, just that he was related to a suspected bad guy.

The public in the USA is neither aware of what our real foreign policy goals are (classified information) nor literate enough in the aggregate to have an educated opinion on the subject.

It is for this reason I am opposed to all our current military entanglements.

The system is so completely untrustworthy that I've gone full Ron Paul/libertarian on this subject.

Let's start the process of disentangling and bringing our men and women home. Farm that money into self defense of the country, debt elimination etc.  

Dismantle The Empire to save the empire.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 05, 2013, 05:03:34 PM
if someone can find this for free its good reading
http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?collection=journals&handle=hein.journals/vajint27&div=27&id=&page=
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Nick1911 on February 05, 2013, 05:07:37 PM
Quote
When can the US Government assasinate Americans?

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the answer is "Whenever they want."
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: drewtam on February 05, 2013, 05:51:13 PM
If either of us killed a bystander while doing something lawful, we're going to jail for involuntary manslaughter at a minimum. Standard should apply to anyone assassinating US citizens. Not that it's a great idea to start with.

Seriously, this doesn't even qualify for "slippery slope". Intentionally assassinating US citizens with no oversight or due process is NOT kosher by any definition.

So that response is still vague to me... would you be ok with drone strikes on US citizens if there was proper Congressional or Judicial oversight? Or is killing a US citizen only allowed during immediate self defense and/or after a trial back in the US?

If there is proper Congressional or Judicial oversight, that would be ok with me. I think it is ludicrous to expect a trial in-absentia before completing an attack on a combatant; or just ignore American terrorists because we can't serve a warrant nor extradite them for trial.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: seeker_two on February 05, 2013, 07:09:42 PM
I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the answer is "Whenever they want."

That's always been the answer....just ask Admiral Yamamoto & Fidel Castro...

Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: ArfinGreebly on February 05, 2013, 07:48:21 PM

Well, they could try to get away with it, but it would fail, really, because they'd have to have the press covering for them, and that would never happen . . .
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Blakenzy on February 05, 2013, 08:57:17 PM


Dismantle The Empire to save the empire Republic.

FIFY
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: De Selby on February 05, 2013, 09:05:54 PM
The problem here is that they've considered the entire world to be a war zone, with no time limits.  It's a classic tyrannical move - declare an everlasting state of emergency that knows no bounds, and enforce the law as you choose within it.

If they're relying on war powers, there must be some limit to what is a war zone, or else their power to kill citizens on "executive finding" of past involvement with terror is unlimited.

If they're relying on anything else, the standards of self defense are much higher, and the wish washy principles in the paper have no legal foundation whatsoever.

To mock their criticism of water torture is entirely correct - instead of arresting and imprisoning without trial like Bush, Obama is asserting the power to kill.  It's an outrage to the constitution, and an eerie first step taken by many tyrannical regimes in history.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: De Selby on February 05, 2013, 09:08:06 PM
That's always been the answer....just ask Admiral Yamamoto & Fidel Castro...



Sorry, but no one at the time believed that shooting Castro or Yamamoto would've been legal if either escaped to Paris and hidden their identities, to avoid punishment by war crimes tribunals.  Those are examples of leadership strikes confined by territorial and conflict limits.  

This is a very, very different legal theory.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Scout26 on February 05, 2013, 09:21:28 PM
Yamamoto was, by definition a combatant, as a commissioned officer in the Imperial Japanese Navy.  Therefore a member of the Armed Forces of one of the parties of the conflict.

Castro openly carried arms and participated in an armed revolt while wearing a military type uniform.  Again, a combatant. 
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: De Selby on February 05, 2013, 09:33:11 PM
Yamamoto was, by definition a combatant, as a commissioned officer in the Imperial Japanese Navy.  Therefore a member of the Armed Forces of one of the parties of the conflict.

Castro openly carried arms and participated in an armed revolt while wearing a military type uniform.  Again, a combatant. 

True - which is what makes those strikes easy cases and distinguishes them from Obama's theory.

There are clearly defined limits, and obvious conditions that would change the case for both.  Not so in the war on terror - it's impossible to pin the government to limits on its power to kill.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Ron on February 05, 2013, 09:33:50 PM
Quote
Quote from: Ron on Today at 05:01:11 PM


Dismantle The Empire to save the empire Republic.

FIFY

touché
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: AJ Dual on February 06, 2013, 12:13:40 AM
So...

Were we to all agree on a uniform before things get ugly in the USA, that might be a good idea?  =D
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: red headed stranger on February 06, 2013, 01:56:00 AM
So...

Were we to all agree on a uniform before things get ugly in the USA, that might be a good idea?  =D

Zardoz pic in 3 . .2 . .1 . .
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: HankB on February 06, 2013, 06:17:20 AM
Sorry, but no one at the time believed that shooting Castro or Yamamoto would've been legal if either escaped to Paris and hidden their identities, to avoid punishment by war crimes tribunals.  Those are examples of leadership strikes confined by territorial and conflict limits.  

This is a very, very different legal theory.
Would there have been any outcry if a bomb were dropped on the station Tokyo Rose was broadcasting from?
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: De Selby on February 06, 2013, 06:27:03 AM
Would there have been any outcry if a bomb were dropped on the station Tokyo Rose was broadcasting from?

No, for the same reason.

What if a bomb were dropped on a house in London suspected of being the location of someone who used to be Tokyo rose?  And if the only proof the government offered was 'we believe that was the person. We aren't saying why."?
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Fitz on February 06, 2013, 07:58:52 AM
I'm rapidly changing my mind on this issue, and starting to agree with deselby

Especially considering the recent rhetoric about "right Wong terror groups" and "disgruntled gun owners" being used as the enemy in military exercises

It's very troubling


Also, where's the outrage from the left? They were up in arms about water boarding, calling for impeachment and *expletive deleted*, but they're fine with assassination?

Pretty sure I'd rather be water boarded than dead
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Hutch on February 06, 2013, 09:22:15 AM
Can someone describe how the SCOTUS could be asked to step in and affirm that this practice is not permitted?  The Justice department goons who came up with this poop should be fired, stripped of their pensions, and locked up.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: drewtam on February 06, 2013, 11:47:25 AM
Can someone describe how the SCOTUS could be asked to step in and affirm that this practice is not permitted?  The Justice department goons who came up with this poop should be fired, stripped of their pensions, and locked up.

I'm not a constitutional lawyer, but I suspect that there would first need to be a ruling that the FedGov and DoD does not have sovereign immunity in such cases.

Following that, civil suits can be filed for wrongful death and violation of civil rights. [I am using the Kent State student killings/conflict as a rough guide where such suits were filed by the parents and ACLU.] In this case, these are Tort civil cases rather than criminal prosecution. As for a criminal prosecution, I think only the Executive branch or Congress itself can force such action against the Office of the President and DoD.

At the highest level, I don't think the SC can't impeach the president or cabinet members in order to force criminal prosecution of subordinates, only Congress can do this. Neither Rs nor Ds are interested in anything of the sort.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: roo_ster on February 06, 2013, 01:13:39 PM
Pretty sure I'd rather be water boarded than dead

Plus, it is pretty hard to blow up the wrong person or not-so/innocent bystanders with waterboarding.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: brimic on February 06, 2013, 03:12:51 PM
Quote
Plus, it is pretty hard to blow up the wrong person or not-so/innocent bystanders with waterboarding.

Plus, there are no inconvenient witnesses to later testify at a war crime tribunal if they blown to bits.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: De Selby on February 06, 2013, 04:55:36 PM
Also, where's the outrage from the left? They were up in arms about water boarding, calling for impeachment and *expletive deleted*, but they're fine with assassination?

Pretty sure I'd rather be water boarded than dead

This - Obama's policy on enemy combatants is actually far more radical than bush's, yet there's not a peep from his supporters about it.  I'm surprised the white paper even made news.

Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Balog on February 07, 2013, 07:38:44 PM
So this is an aspect of Bush and Obama's war policies that don't get me upset.

If a citizen is on foreign soil and is in an enemy war camp (not reasonably able to be captured, as the legal docs put it); then attacking and killing said person in the course of war operations is expected. If they are making war on the US from a foreign location, then it is nonsensical to try and send in the FBI to foreign soil for a raid.

Maybe the current legal situation lacks checks and balances / oversight; but that is an entirely different argument. It seems the current argument is calling the drone assassinations completely illegitimate on the face.

"Not reasonably able to be captured" + "Officer safety" = "Dude's in a trailer in Montana with some guns, so we'd be in danger if we try to arrest him. Just drone his ass." Nothing in that paper explicitly forbids actions on American soil.

And yeah, killing an American citizen solely because some high ranking fed.gov official is pretty sure he's affilliated in some way with a group that's affilliated in some way with Al Queda is absolutely wrong on its face.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Blakenzy on February 07, 2013, 08:08:23 PM
Yeah, I want a guy like this to have the power to point his finger at me and have me blown up, legally, if he so sees it fit. No evidence, no oversight, no restraints, NO ACCOUNTABILITY... he just has to get it in his head that I am THINKING about "attacking the US" sometime in the future, and that capture would be less convenient than a hellfire missile.
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRODoZfmhnszLZroPM6KsypHfuMrv2NGeMc2mfgF8ZjGiQjdXVLug)
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: roo_ster on February 07, 2013, 10:02:05 PM
Reading the paper, they took all of the imminence out of imminent threat.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: zxcvbob on February 07, 2013, 11:58:20 PM
They haven't thought this thru to its logical conclusion.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Balog on February 08, 2013, 02:32:56 AM
Given the recent spate of white papers on using troops against American citizens(specifically conservative gun owners), practices against "enemy combatants" consisting of Americans etc...

I'd say maybe they have.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on February 08, 2013, 04:38:27 AM
There have been a few "natural gas" explosions in the recent past that had some sketchy details.
Hmmmm.... [tinfoil]
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: seeker_two on February 08, 2013, 11:54:49 AM
There have been a few "natural gas" explosions in the recent past that had some sketchy details.
Hmmmm.... [tinfoil]

Makes one wonder how the Branch Davidian thing would have turned out had drones been available.....
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: RocketMan on February 08, 2013, 01:11:46 PM
Makes one wonder how the Branch Davidian thing would have turned out had drones been available.....

If history is any guide, there will be another Branch Davidian-like event at some point.  We will see how things go when it happens.  And we will probably not like it.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Jamisjockey on February 08, 2013, 06:02:01 PM
Makes one wonder how the Branch Davidian thing would have turned out had drones been available.....

Just as many dead kids.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Blakenzy on February 08, 2013, 06:53:55 PM
Yep. The presence of kids doesn't make a drone strike a No-Go. Ask the Pakistanis.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: De Selby on February 08, 2013, 07:04:18 PM
Just as many dead kids.

Obama literally blows up little kids from the sky, and sells guns to Mexican drug gangs, and somehow he's the compassionate alternative to republicans.

Nutty as he is, Ron Paul is the only person with a shred of sanity that stood for election.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Tallpine on February 08, 2013, 07:07:02 PM
Quote
When can the US Government assasinate Americans?

Anytime they want, apparently  :mad:

Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: longeyes on February 08, 2013, 08:26:54 PM
Beware Caesar, thou art mortal.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: roo_ster on February 08, 2013, 10:10:25 PM
Obama literally blows up little kids from the sky, and sells guns to Mexican drug gangs, and somehow he's the compassionate alternative to republicans.

Nutty as he is, Ron Paul is the only person with a shred of sanity that stood for election.

The Wallaby Contingent writes truth. 

I always thought McCain was the farthest extreme of the War Party in US politics, but I doubt he would have gone as far as BHO has.  If he had, the MSM and "Anti-War*" protesters would have attenuated his behavior a bit. 




* 99.9% of the Bush-Era "Anti-War Protesters" were mere partisan hacks.  Where are they all now that BHO has re-classified every collateral non-targeted male killed by a drone strike as a hostile?  And then they claim a dramatic reduction of innocent folks killed by drone strikes.  Sounds an awful lot like the classic example of chutzpa: A double parricide demanding mercy from the court due to his orphaned state.


Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Monkeyleg on February 08, 2013, 10:37:10 PM
Quote
This - Obama's policy on enemy combatants is actually far more radical than bush's, yet there's not a peep from his supporters about it.  I'm surprised the white paper even made news.

I was stunned to read a column by Eugene Robinson in which he condemned Obama for killing American citizens with drones, without judge or trial. He didn't seem concerned about collateral damage (kids, etc).
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Fitz on February 09, 2013, 08:24:13 AM
Obama literally blows up little kids from the sky, and sells guns to Mexican drug gangs, and somehow he's the compassionate alternative to republicans.

Nutty as he is, Ron Paul is the only person with a shred of sanity that stood for election.

Ron Paul is a big old meanie who we should revile and hate because he pointed out a particular bit of truth in a tweet
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: lee n. field on February 09, 2013, 11:08:26 AM
Obama literally blows up little kids from the sky, and sells guns to Mexican drug gangs, and somehow he's the compassionate alternative to republicans.

Nutty as he is, Ron Paul is the only person with a shred of sanity that stood for election.

Quotable.  I think I'll borrow that for possible .sig line use.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: seeker_two on February 09, 2013, 11:12:55 AM
Another thought: Would we condemn Obama as much if the directive specified the use of snipers instead of missle-armed drones?
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: longeyes on February 09, 2013, 11:17:33 AM
Won't Obama eventually, given his insemination of his administration with people of questionable background and ties, have to target his own White House...?
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: RocketMan on February 09, 2013, 11:20:23 AM
Another thought: Would we condemn Obama as much if the directive specified the use of snipers instead of missle-armed drones?

Snipers are usually a tad more discriminate on the battlefield.  Less of that whole collateral damage thing.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Blakenzy on February 09, 2013, 11:40:51 AM
Another thought: Would we condemn Obama as much if the directive specified the use of snipers instead of missle-armed drones?

In the case of American citizens, yes I believe the condemnation would be equal. The problem isn't with the tools employed it's with the Executive ignoring Constitutional guarantees and restraints, bypassing due process and declaring it can act as judge, jury and executioner of it's citizens with no oversight or accountability. It is reminiscent of the power kings attributed to themselves. It's a conceptual problem. And if snipers were used, the assassination of al-Awlaki's son for example wouldn't have been able to be conveniently excused as a "woopsie.. collateral damage!"... it would be hard to deny who was targeted, creating more condemnation.

In the case of criticism regarding the assassination of foreigners with snipers, it would be less notorious, simply because the body count would be so much lower. It takes more resources and is more risky to set up a sniper hit, therefore the overall number of attacks would be far less, not to mention the specificity would be nearly 100%. No children or bystanders killed. No killing first responders by "double tapping" . It just wouldn't grab enough public attention State side to generate muchbcondemnation.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Tallpine on February 09, 2013, 11:52:29 AM
Another thought: Would we condemn Obama as much if the directive specified the use of snipers instead of missle-armed drones?

If you are an American citizen fighting for the other side on a battlefield, well - then you take your chances like everyone else.

The problem is that now the fed.gov considers the entire world to be the battlefield.

Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: RocketMan on March 05, 2013, 09:13:12 PM
This is how Eric Holder weighed in (http://washingtonexaminer.com/eric-holder-drone-strikes-against-americans-on-u.s.-soil-are-legal/article/2523319) yesterday on armed drone strikes in the US.  Troubling, this is.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: roo_ster on March 06, 2013, 01:13:14 AM
This is how Eric Holder weighed in (http://washingtonexaminer.com/eric-holder-drone-strikes-against-americans-on-u.s.-soil-are-legal/article/2523319) yesterday on armed drone strikes in the US.  Troubling, this is.

Where is that Castle "Huh?  Wha?  Yeah..." animated gif?

They are determined to make Americans The Enemy.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 06, 2013, 01:37:04 AM
Waterboarding foreign killers = war crime
Killing Americans with drones = humanitarian

And when Americans betrayed the country and fired on Ft. Sumter, they weren't given a jury either. Instead, American troops rode towards them on horses, stabbed them with sabres and shot them with shrapnel. None were ever read their Miranda rights.

Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 06, 2013, 02:16:27 AM
And when Americans betrayed the country and fired on Ft. Sumter, they weren't given a jury either. Instead, American troops rode towards them on horses, stabbed them with sabres and shot them with shrapnel. None were ever read their Miranda rights.



Not everyone sees "the war of Northern aggression" in quite that light.  =D
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 06, 2013, 02:22:20 AM
Quote
Obama literally blows up little kids from the sky, and sells guns to Mexican drug gangs, and somehow some people still think Ron Paul is the crazy one

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 06, 2013, 02:24:04 AM
As on the topic of snipers.

How would that sniper get to, say, the parts of Afghanistan where we need to kill people?

Oh, he'd need to be airlifted in? With a support team?

And then the support team would probably need to fight people?

...and if something goes south it would require extractino and air support and artillery support?

If you were to kill a thousand terrorists a year through the use of ground forces I'm betting there'd be even more collateral damage.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: De Selby on March 06, 2013, 06:42:54 AM
And when Americans betrayed the country and fired on Ft. Sumter, they weren't given a jury either. Instead, American troops rode towards them on horses, stabbed them with sabres and shot them with shrapnel. None were ever read their Miranda rights.



Yeah, they also had uniforms that made identifying the parties easy and there were clearly delineated zones - military trials even under those conditions were controversial - executing non-uniformed people on suspicion of being a rebel wasn't even floated as a possibility, and yet that is exactly what Obama is doing.

These are war powers that would've shocked and embarrassed Lincoln.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 06, 2013, 06:49:36 AM
De Selby:

I am not sure I know a good answer to the problem we're facing, but let us consider the problem.

Given:

1. Terrorist organizations exist.

2. Terrorist organizations will not vanish, even if the US will announce total isolationism. Even if these specific organizations vanish - unlikely - the problem itself will rise again in another context.

3. Terrorist organizations number thousands of men and wae what is effectively war again the US or its allies.

What do we do?

Clearly the toolboxes we have aren't too good for this.

We have a military toolbox - which works quite nicely, our guns kill theterrorists quite dead - but we are not always certain who the terrorists are. If it is a terrorist training camp in North Waziristan we can of course blow  it up - but if it is a guy standing in line at an airport in England, blowing him up would be less desirable.

We have a police toolbox. We're certainly not reading the guysi n North Waziristan their rights. On the other hand we want to do that if we spot a terrorist suspect in Nebrasks.

How do we build a terrorist toolbox  is a question which is so far non-resolved by our society.

Clearly "let us huddle in our caves and nuke all the foreigners" isn't a workable solution.

But "let us pretend that the problem doesn't exist and we should treat Al-Quaeda the same way we'd treat an enemy army, or, alternatively, a group of criminal suspects" isn't a workable solution e3ither. Neither is "let us pretend any collateral damage is entirely non-acceptable and accepting even one innocent man being killed is the same as being Hitler".
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: De Selby on March 06, 2013, 06:54:29 AM
Wait a second, why isn't going about our daily lives while chasing down terrorists just like we did before 9/11 a viable option?

Fewer Americans would have died, and our counter-terror policy would have likely been just as if not more effective.  Then there's the billions in savings we might put to use actually saving lives, for example, by improving road safety.

There are not hordes of people capable of inflicting damage on the US.  There are very few, and they have mostly been caught by the criminal process that has worked just fine for a hundred years. 

Drone strikes have not changed the game one bit - we still have to identify terrorists.  If they're in places so remote we could never arrest them, how the hell were they going to attack us?
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 06, 2013, 07:52:11 AM
The issue is not the remoteness.

The issue is that they are guarded by other terrorists, and any operatives we sent to arrests them would likely have to be involved in a shooting fight. It wouldn't be like a  police officer arresting a criminal.

And how they would harm is easy: train and fund terrorist operatives.

Further, back then we also used drones. Long-range drones that crashed into things. They were called cruise missiles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_missile_strikes_on_Afghanistan_and_Sudan_(August_1998)).
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 06, 2013, 08:17:43 AM
Quote
Wait a second, why isn't going about our daily lives while chasing down terrorists just like we did before 9/11 a viable option?

Our anti-terrorist "policies" prior to 9/11 are a big part of why we had the the 9/11 attack.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Fitz on March 06, 2013, 08:57:28 AM
Wait a second, why isn't going about our daily lives while chasing down terrorists just like we did before 9/11 a viable option?

...


You're joking right?

I mean, i'm no longer a big friend of the idea of drone strikes... but returning to our methods pre-9/11 is a pretty idiotic idea.

Although, maybe you're right. Maybe complete incompetence is better than the current situation :-/
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Ron on March 06, 2013, 09:37:56 AM
The way I see it is thus.

You cannot separate terrorism from our worldwide footprint and foreign policy.

Our foreign policy goals and plans are not really public and would probably look something like three dimensional chess if someone actually sat down and tried to explain the world situation to us.

The "terrorists" are those who are actively fighting against the western world empire.

If you find yourself aligned against the empire's goals you better be careful who you run with. Or you might go all splodey!

The best we can do is elect folks who hold the same principles of liberty that we espouse. Once they get elected it then becomes up to them to try and untangle the mess and do the right thing.

If Ron Paul got elected president he would probably go into a deep deep depression at just how far gone we are and how deeply we have insinuated ourselves into just about every nook and cranny of everyone's business across the globe.

 
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Blakenzy on March 06, 2013, 11:58:50 AM
Our anti-terrorist imperial "policies" prior to 9/11 are a big part of why we had the the 9/11 attack.

Sadly, that's more in tune with reality.

I am of the thought that not even a tenth of what is done in those foreign countries is about preventing strikes in the US. Most of it is about eliminating militant political resistance to highly questionable governments and political structures favored by our rulers. All about maintaining control. At this point in time I am skeptical about there being more than a handful of redeemable actions taken in those places by the US Government.

I am just bracing for the time when "lessons learned" overseas are imported wholesale to keep things under control in the "homeland"  ;/
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 06, 2013, 12:41:43 PM
If you really think that withdrawing America from the world will eliminate terrorism I've got another thing coming.
Title: Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
Post by: Fitz on March 06, 2013, 12:46:33 PM
If you really think that withdrawing America from the world will eliminate terrorism I've got another thing coming.

I think i see what you did there.