Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on April 16, 2021, 05:35:01 PM
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Good for Texas, especially in these times. An interesting part of the story was the mention of police chiefs being against it as well as "firearm instructors". I assume the "firearm instructors" are the "niche" guys who focus on permit courses versus trainers who do a wide range of basic and defensive firearms and also offer permit courses as part of that.
I may be wrong, but I don't think many Idaho police chiefs were against it when permitless carry passed here. Maybe the story only heard about the Texas police chiefs from bigger cities that might lean dem.
The Texas House on Thursday gave initial approval to a bill that would allow Texans to carry handguns without a permit or training.
After hours of debate, House Bill 1927, led by Rep. Matt Schaefer (R-Tyler.), passed 84–56 largely along party lines, in a blow to Democrats who have long railed against loosening gun laws after the 2019 mass shooting at an El Paso Walmart.
Texas has more than 1.6 million licensed handgun owners. But scrapping that required permit has been a long-sought goal of conservative activists in the Lone Star State. If approved, Texas would become the largest of some 20 states that already allow handguns to be carried in public without a permit.
“It’s time to restore faith in law-abiding Texans,” Schaefer said on the House floor. “This bill should be called common-sense carry.”
The Republican lawmaker argued that obtaining a permit is both time-consuming and costly—roughly between $100 and $150 per handgun license. Applicants must also go through criminal history and background checks.
Democrats pushing against the bill have been fighting for enhanced gun safety measures since the El Paso mass shooting that left 23 people dead.
“Even knowing the political realities, I was hopeful,” said Democratic state Rep. Joe Moody, whose district is in El Paso. “But now here we are, the first legislative session back since then, and it’s another date that’s going to be burned into my head.”
The measure has also drawn opposition from Texas police chiefs, as well as some firearm instructors who run licensing courses, who critics say have a financial incentive to oppose the change. The bill now goes to the Senate, where its prospects are uncertain.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/texas-house-gives-initial-approval-to-no-permit-carry-bill_3778465.html
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Seems to me "common sense" gun control should be defined by a "common sense" reading of the Second Amendment.
I've heard mention of the notion that FFLs and the like in general, would not like to see ATF dismantled or any of the "big" gun control acts repealed, from '34 on. That's when I first heard the expression "breaking your own rice bowl."
I figure maybe the licensing (not the "shooting") instructors, (though there's an overlap), might feel the same way. This is the first time I personally have heard that "suspicion" talked about openly.
Several years ago I heard some wag wish buying a gun was like buying a coffeepot. You pays yer money and you takes it home.
Terry, 230RN
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I figure maybe the licensing (not the "shooting") instructors, (though there's an overlap), might feel the same way. This is the first time I personally have heard that "suspicion" talked about openly.
Regarding the instructors that focus their classes on any kind of CCW training requirements, I have seen pushback from them many times in many states. Instructors that teach a wide variety of classes, not so much, since stuff like permitless carry can actually attract business for them regarding defensive handgun classes.
That's the smart way to teach anyway. When you have, for example, CCW, defensive handgun 1, defensive handgun 2, etc., you have a ladder for repeat students. If all you do is the one "get your carry permit in 4 hours!" class, then you are one and done regarding students.
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Several years ago I heard some wag wish buying a gun was like buying a coffeepot. You pays yer money and you takes it home.
That's how I view it. Buying a gun should be like buying any other consumer product.
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If Texas was as pro-gun as the Texans thought they were, Texas would have had constitutional carry first.
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When Oklahoma went constitutional carry a few years ago one of the biggest opponents was the OSBI, they were loudly bemoaning the loss of revenue from permit fees. :mad:
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Good for Texas, especially in these times. An interesting part of the story was the mention of police chiefs being against it as well as "firearm instructors". I assume the "firearm instructors" are the "niche" guys who focus on permit courses versus trainers who do a wide range of basic and defensive firearms and also offer permit courses as part of that.
Basically correct. Texas requires requalification with live fire to renew carry permits, and the instructors who teach the courses 9and run the requals) have traditionally been vehemently opposed to any ideas that threaten their cash cow income stream.
Another example of how "gun guys" are often our own worst enemies.
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Good for Texas, especially in these times. An interesting part of the story was the mention of police chiefs being against it as well as "firearm instructors". I assume the "firearm instructors" are the "niche" guys who focus on permit courses versus trainers who do a wide range of basic and defensive firearms and also offer permit courses as part of that.
I may be wrong, but I don't think many Idaho police chiefs were against it when permitless carry passed here. Maybe the story only heard about the Texas police chiefs from bigger cities that might lean dem.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/texas-house-gives-initial-approval-to-no-permit-carry-bill_3778465.html
I think you would find that the majority of big city cops are political hacks who parrot what they are told. I have never in my years of watching street cops and working with one police force as a civilian, heard of any "on the streets" officers being for control. When I worked as a range safety officer, many sworn officers wanted law abiding folks carrying, knowing it took some pressure off them.
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Basically correct. Texas requires requalification with live fire to renew carry permits, and the instructors who teach the courses 9and run the requals) have traditionally been vehemently opposed to any ideas that threaten their cash cow income stream.
Another example of how "gun guys" are often our own worst enemies.
We don't require re-qualification anymore. You do the first class that includes shooting and then you just renew. I just submitted my renewal online this month. My picture and fingerprints were updated for my DL a couple years ago which might have been the only hang up. The state LTC license fee was lowered to $40. Both happened some years ago.
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If Texas was as pro-gun as the Texans thought they were, Texas would have had constitutional carry first.
From what I have seen, that is all in the minds of people in other states. =D
Gotta defend my state I guess. =) Texas is pro-gun IMO (gun ownership is high), but not nearly as libertarian leaning as I would like. There have always been a lot of "there ought to be a law" types here that are conservative, but not necessarily libertarian. The state was run by Democrats for over 100 years until the 90's. We have made steady progress on gun rights and self defense laws ever since. With the legislature only meeting every other year, that isn't a fast process. In the last 10 or 15 years, have eliminated laws about traveling with guns (that took some effort), removed almost all restrictions on knives, clubs, hatchets, and brass knuckles.
I am really hoping we can get Constitutional Carry passed. At least it passed the House early enough in the session there should be plenty of time to push past any hang ups. The TSRA has always had a fairly strong voice here, but the last few years GOA Texas has had Rachel Malone as the Texas Director and she is pretty active. I am hopeful and need to make sure I contact my state Senator next week. Passing this would be a huge win. It will cap off all the pro-gun changes over the last 25 years.
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Indiana was on the cusp of going Constitutional Carry.
The state senate conservatives conserved the status quo and killed the bill by not giving it a hearing.
There is a possibility that the $75 lifetime carry permit cost will be reduced to zero, no cost.
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Indiana was on the cusp of going Constitutional Carry.
The state senate conservatives conserved the status quo and killed the bill by not giving it a hearing.
There is a possibility that the $75 lifetime carry permit cost will be reduced to zero, no cost.
Was this before or after the shooting at Fed Ex?
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Was this before or after the shooting at Fed Ex?
Before
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/indiana-constitutional-carry-killed-due-to-police-police-orgs-opposition/
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Indiana was on the cusp of going Constitutional Carry.
The state senate conservatives conserved the status quo and killed the bill by not giving it a hearing.
There is a possibility that the $75 lifetime carry permit cost will be reduced to zero, no cost.
Maybe they can make a second go of it. This is at least the 2nd time Constitutional Carry has come up in Texas. The last session it seemed to have some support, but the Texas House leadership (no longer in office) was looking for an excuse to drop it and did. I get the impression there is more support for it this time since it passed the house.
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Coincidence?
Permitless carry under discussion in Indiana ==> mass shooting in Indianapolis.
Permitless carry under discussion in Texas ==> mass shooting in Austin.
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Coincidence?
Permitless carry under discussion in Indiana ==> mass shooting in Indianapolis.
Permitless carry under discussion in Texas ==> mass shooting in Austin.
Do you think the guy in Austin might be a Brony also?
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Coincidence?
Permitless carry under discussion in Indiana ==> mass shooting in Indianapolis.
Permitless carry under discussion in Texas ==> mass shooting in Austin.
I'd point out that there's no way permit-less carry makes it easier to commit a mass shooting - only easier to stop one. But we all know that doesn't matter in politics. :facepalm: :facepalm:
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Coincidence?
Permitless carry under discussion in Indiana ==> mass shooting in Indianapolis.
Permitless carry under discussion in Texas ==> mass shooting in Austin.
I see that you figured that out also. I was tracking that sort of stuff for a long time (since 1994) but finally realized it was not coincidental, and wasn't helping my blood pressure.
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Could be argued that when things like permitless carry bills come up the MSM will tend to put a bit more focus on shootings
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Lt. Gov says they currently don't have the votes
Texas Lt. Governor Patrick Won’t Bring Constitutional Carry to the Floor If the Votes Aren’t There
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/texas-lt-governor-patrick-wont-bring-constitutional-carry-to-the-floor-if-the-votes-arent-there/
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I will have to wait and see what others say about it. At some point, I want them on record as voting against it, but there is still time to work on getting the votes.
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Lt. Gov says they currently don't have the votes
Texas Lt. Governor Patrick Won’t Bring Constitutional Carry to the Floor If the Votes Aren’t There
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/texas-lt-governor-patrick-wont-bring-constitutional-carry-to-the-floor-if-the-votes-arent-there/
What the heck is going on down there? Honestly, I would have expected Texas to be one of the first states on the bandwagon, not one of the last states.
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For our Texas members: Are all y'all gonna roll wild west pimp style?
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2021/04/21/texas-legislator-says-constitutional-carry-bill-will-let-non-felons-walk-around-wild-west-pimp-style/
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BBQ guns.
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For our Texas members: Are all y'all gonna roll wild west pimp style?
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2021/04/21/texas-legislator-says-constitutional-carry-bill-will-let-non-felons-walk-around-wild-west-pimp-style/
Sounds like a Kid Rock song.
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For our Texas members: Are all y'all gonna roll wild west pimp style?
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2021/04/21/texas-legislator-says-constitutional-carry-bill-will-let-non-felons-walk-around-wild-west-pimp-style/
I wonder who this pimp is that thumbs his nose at laws against prostitution, but scrupulously follows gun laws and won't carry without a permit?
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I wonder who this pimp is that thumbs his nose at laws against prostitution, but scrupulously follows gun laws and won't carry without a permit?
You're avoiding the question. Are YOU going to pimp out?
https://youtu.be/yRIVzA27lA0?t=36
=D
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You're avoiding the question. Are YOU going to pimp out?
https://youtu.be/yRIVzA27lA0?t=36
=D
Sure. Just picture someone who would look nerdier than Kramer. Everyone wants to see that.
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We already have permitless carry in my state, but I've been leaving my stable of girls at home, silly me. I'll have to correct that.
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We already have permitless carry in my state, but I've been leaving my stable of girls at home, silly me. I'll have to correct that.
These days not having a gun on me is like not wearing my seatbelt. I notice it and feel like I am missing something. Still can't wear it at work.
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These days not having a gun on me is like not wearing my seatbelt. I notice it and feel like I am missing something. Still can't wear it at work.
I try to always carry here, and I'm always amused that the state where I can carry most anywhere is a state where the need to carry is pretty low (which, armed, polite society, hey?).
Now I have to go to CA again this weekend, where there is a much, much greater probability of needing a weapon on me, and I get irritated at both what I can take with me and how I can take it with me.
I was thinking a few days ago that if the Chauvin verdict went the other way, I would say FU to CA, and at the very least be taking my FNX45 with the 15 rounds of .45, and maybe even an evil EBR with some evil standard capacity mags. Having to drive through Sacramento and Fresno on my way, I think the possibility of potential trouble would have been high enough that the slim chance of "getting caught" with the guns would be worth the legal hassles, compared to being Reginal Denny'd at some freeway blockade somewhere.
As it is, I'll be taking a 1911 and some mags this time, using the "California carry" method of unloaded gun and loaded mags in a combo lockbox with the combo one number off of "open".
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Iowa beats Texas...
(https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2020/11/27202249/USATSI_15240034-1024x683.jpg)
Football and firearm rights.
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Iowa beats Texas...
(https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2020/11/27202249/USATSI_15240034-1024x683.jpg)
Football and firearm rights.
Fine by me. I didn't go to the community college in Austin. :laugh:
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Fine by me. I didn't go to the community college in Austin. :laugh:
A&M should of stayed in the Big 12.
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These days not having a gun on me is like not wearing my seatbelt. I notice it and feel like I am missing something. Still can't wear it at work.
I always take my gun. I was talking about my stable of girls.
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My little ponies?
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A&M should of stayed in the Big 12.
Hell no. The SEC fits A&M much better. Should have made that move when the SWC fell apart. The Big 12 started going downhill when Nebraska left.
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Got this email from my GOA Texas Rep. Sounds like some political games afoot. We will see where it ends up.
The Texas House passed a strong Constitutional Carry bill (HB 1927) a week ago in a decisive 87-58 bipartisan vote.
But instead of immediately moving HB 1927 forward in the Senate, Lt. Governor Patrick secured the votes Thursday to suspend the rules and file his own poison pill version of Constitutional Carry, SB 2224 – over a month past the filing deadline.
SB 2224 is confusing and complicated. It creates profiling regulations that will burden law-abiding gun owners.
This is an insult to everyone who worked so hard to get Constitutional Carry over the finish line in the House. We cannot support SB 2224 with its poison pills. And we cannot condone a process that starts all over from the beginning with a new bill.
But here's some more important news: The Lt. Governor has created a new Senate committee, the Special Committee on Constitutional Issues. The commmittee membership is very favorable to Constitutional Carry. HB 1927 has been referred to this committee, and we expect it to have a hearing next week.
We encourage this committee to focus on moving HB 1927 forward as the most efficient path to passing Constitutional Carry in Texas. Time is ticking down, and there is no need to waste time sending a new bill to the House when the House has already done the heavy lifting to pass a strong bill.
We call on Lt. Gov. Patrick to use his position to secure the necessary votes and pass HB 1927 in the Senate without delay.
HB 1927 is a true Constitutional Carry bill because it restores firearms carry freedoms and ensures that law-abiding Texans have the protection of law.
I was pleasantly surprised to see a similar email this morning from the Texas Republican Party. It mentioned that they special committee that the original bill was put in was done in response to public comment in support of the bill. I have generally ignored emails and mailers from them. Might have to pay more attention if they are actually supporting gun rights bills.
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Hell no. The SEC fits A&M much better. Should have made that move when the SWC fell apart. The Big 12 started going downhill when Nebraska left.
Tex-ass and their Longhorn Network is was caused it all. I wish they would of booted Texas when the talks of a Big 12 network and Texas poo poo it.
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Tex-ass and their Longhorn Network is was caused it all. I wish they would of booted Texas when the talks of a Big 12 network and Texas poo poo it.
I remember hearing scuttlebutt that the guy who set up the Big Ten Network worked for the Big 12 and wanted to set up a Big 12 network. It was shot down and he left to go to the Big Ten. Later it came out that UofTexas was already talking to ESPN about a school network. At this time, the TV contract for the Big 12 was not very good and it was not split evenly between the schools. It is still that way I think. Texas gets richer and the rest of the Big 12 lags behind.
When A&M left to join the SEC and the SEC renegotiated their TV deal, A&M revenue went up considerably and money is split evenly I believe.
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I try to always carry here, and I'm always amused that the state where I can carry most anywhere is a state where the need to carry is pretty low (which, armed, polite society, hey?).
Now I have to go to CA again this weekend, where there is a much, much greater probability of needing a weapon on me, and I get irritated at both what I can take with me and how I can take it with me.
I was thinking a few days ago that if the Chauvin verdict went the other way, I would say FU to CA, and at the very least be taking my FNX45 with the 15 rounds of .45, and maybe even an evil EBR with some evil standard capacity mags. Having to drive through Sacramento and Fresno on my way, I think the possibility of potential trouble would have been high enough that the slim chance of "getting caught" with the guns would be worth the legal hassles, compared to being Reginal Denny'd at some freeway blockade somewhere.
As it is, I'll be taking a 1911 and some mags this time, using the "California carry" method of unloaded gun and loaded mags in a combo lockbox with the combo one number off of "open".
Crime is not particularly bad where I am, but I still carry as much as I can even out on walks. I do occasionally go into Houston and there crime is getting worse from what I hear. The Democrat judges there have been letting violent criminals go on personal recognizance bonds in the last year or two. There are some high profile cases of some of those killing people within days of being released.
My brother lives in a suburb of Houston and jogs a lot. I have given him small knives for b-day and Christmas gifts the last few years. This year he asked for something with a small clip he can wear jogging.
I got him one of these as at least part of his gift this year. We will see how well it works.
https://www.gerbergear.com/en-us/shop/knives/all-knives/ghostrike-fixed-blade-30-001005
I came across a number of videos of EDC knives and such. Saw a few different knives I want.
https://bradfordknives.com/guardian-3/506-9120-3d-guardian-3-3v-steel.html?mc_cid=f5cf7b3fbb&mc_eid=e0164d1401#/2-fastener_type-tumbled/3-handle_color-od_green/20-blade_finish-stonewash/21-blade_grind-false_edge
The sheath on this one is set up to sit sideways on the belt.
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The full Texas Senate could consider House Bill 1927 as early as Wednesday, May 5 after it was approved by a newly formed, special committee on Constitutional Issues.
Gov. Greg Abbott Confident Legislature Will Pass Constitutional Carry Bill: "I Think It Can Get Across The Finish Line"
https://news.yahoo.com/gov-greg-abbott-confident-legislature-224200673.html
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There is a possibility it could happen this week. I have emailed my state senator. I tried to call yesterday and got a busy signal. I am getting emails from the GOA, TSRA, and NRA all asking me to contact my representatives.
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Looks like the constitutional carry bill passed the Texas senate. The TSRA email said it was not the same as the house bill so I don't know what changed yet. I haven't see a GOA email so I don't know what was changed.
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Missouri is now constitutional, however, due to the local politicians being serious cop haters, the general mantra among pretty much everyone but my progressive neighbors is...
Stay strapped, or get clapped.
South City
Tower Grove South
Closest Body last year? 75 yards
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Looks like the constitutional carry bill passed the Texas senate. The TSRA email said it was not the same as the house bill so I don't know what changed yet. I haven't see a GOA email so I don't know what was changed.
Texas Senate Passes Constitutional Carry Bill, But There’s More Work to be Done
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/texas-senate-passes-constitutional-carry-bill-but-more-theres-more-work-to-be-done/
Getting all 18 GOP votes required some changes from the House bill.
The Sheriffs’ Association of Texas signaled tepid support on Wednesday when they sent a letter to Schwertner that outlined three key areas of the bill that required “critical, must-have clarifications and amendments.” Those tweaks, offered by Schwertner on the floor, strike from the bill a provision that would’ve expunged certain weapons-related charges on Texans’ criminal records, allow law enforcement officers to temporarily disarm a person who is detained and temporarily strip the permitless carry rights of people accused of certain violent crimes.
Matt Schaefer
@RepMattSchaefer
No celebration yet folks! We are now reviewing amendments that were added by the Senate to look for issues that would break House rules governing the purpose of HB 1927. Our first impression has us very concerned. Will share more as soon as we can. #txlege #2A #HB1927
Matt Schaefer
@RepMattSchaefer
Adding a non-germane amendment to HB 1927 in the Senate will cause a significant procedural delay. Let’s send constitutional carry to the Governor’s desk soon! #ConstitutionalCarry #2A #HB1927
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Update
BREAKING: Texas Legislature Conference Committee Reaches Agreement on Constitutional Carry Bill
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/breaking-texas-legislature-conference-committee-reaches-agreement-on-constitutional-carry-bill/
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If you have lots, and lots, and LOTS of time, here's the full history.
https://capitol.texas.gov/BillLookup/Text.aspx?LegSess=87R&Bill=HB1927
What I love are the host of "Amendment Fails" notifications. Keep it simple and block attempts to sneak in extraneous crap (which I understand was tried several times).
Brad
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Anyone know when passage is likely to happen? I want to be prepared for the wailing of Lefties, who will behave as though this has never been tried before. ;/
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Don't know for sure, but one of the talk shows I listen to said sometime this week, probably early in the week (Wed or sooner).
Got my permission slip, but this law will help a couple people I know.
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https://www.ammoland.com/2021/05/tx-rep-schaefer-conference-committee-reaches-agreement-on-constitutional-carry/#axzz6vms6BtAD
This article says it will be presented to the House and Senate today or tomorrow. Not sure if that is when they will vote or not.
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So is it going to be a good thing, or did they get some "poison pills" in it?
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I got an email from TSRA yesterday with a link to the conference report. That email said it appears to be okay. They expected action on it today or tomorrow.
I don't know how many of my R representatives really like this law, but voting for this and getting it passed, gives a lot of people a reason to vote FOR them rather than just against the Dems. I hope they remember that.
Conference Report. PDF.
https://lrl.texas.gov/scanned/87ccrs/hb1927.pdf#navpanes=0
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Hopefully it will get through. We tried for it here in SC last legislative season but didn’t work out but we did get open carry and they eliminated the government fees for applying and renewal plus we are now a 2nd Amendment sanctuary state (for what good that does)
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Another email said it has passed the State House again. Just the Senate to go.
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So is it going to be a good thing, or did they get some "poison pills" in it?
In glancing through some of he attempted amendments, it appears the hand-wringing crowd tried their level best - trying to define "mass shooting", getting PoC-specific considerations (PoC=People of Color), non-conviction limitations, Red Flag items, etc. From what I saw, most of it was defeated. Didn't see anything Assault Weapon-ey, but I'm sure it's in there somewhere.
Brad
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I got an email this afternoon that said Constitutional Carry has passed. Just needs to be signed by the Governor who has already said he will sign it.
GREAT NEWS House Bill 1927 by Representative Matt Schaefer passed and is on it's way to the Governor's desk! Governor Abbott has already said he'd sign it! The effective date is September 1, 2021.
HUGE thank you's go to Representative Schaeffer for being the original sponsor, Chairman White who gave up his bill and worked hard to get this to the fill. Senator Schwertner was the Senate sponsor and also did a great job. Chairman Burrows worked with the whole team to get through the entire process. Lt. Governor Dan Patrick and Speaker Dade Phelan showed true leadership in shepherding this bill through multiple hurdles and I am thrilled to tell you they got it done!!!!
This is a huge win for Texans and I am extremely proud to have represented TSRA on this bill. Congratulations to all of you who emailed, wrote letters or made calls.
This couldn't have gotten done without all of you who helped!!
(Open the Champagne or Bourbon, now!) 😎
Thank you!!!!!!
--------------
Andi Turner
Legislative Director
TSRA
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I got an email this afternoon that said Constitutional Carry has passed. Just needs to be signed by the Governor who has already said he will sign it.
18 other states: "What took you so long?"
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It also looks like HB 2622 passed that is the Texas Sanctuary State bill. This quote is from another TSRA email. I haven't heard from our GOA rep, but she has been pretty busy on all this as well. There are likely a few more bills they are pushing to get done this week before the session ends.
Boiled down, it says that no state resources can be used to enforce federal firearms laws that are not also state laws. Further, it gives recourse if a state agency or political subdivision of this state ignores this law.
Please be aware however, if a federal agent finds you breaking federal law, you still have a serious problem. But this bill will make it more difficult for them to operate in Texas-without the cooperation of our Law Enforcement Officers or our resources, it becomes challenging.
https://kniferights.org/legislative-update/urgent-texas-action-alert-email-today-urge-senate-committee-vote-on-tx-knife-law-reform-do-it-today/
There is a bill to remove to remaining restrictions on knives that passed the House, but is apparently stuck in the Senate.
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18 other states: "What took you so long?"
Our legislature meets for 6 months every other year. We like it that way even if reforms are sometimes slow.
After the Santa Fe school shooting and the El Paso Walmart shooting in the last 5 years, that might have prevented them from passing something stupid in the immediate aftermath. There was a lot of "talk" about red flag laws after the El Paso shooting that died down by the time the next session came around.
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It also looks like HB 2622 passed that is the Texas Sanctuary State bill. This quote is from another TSRA email. I haven't heard from our GOA rep, but she has been pretty busy on all this as well. There are likely a few more bills they are pushing to get done this week before the session ends.
https://kniferights.org/legislative-update/urgent-texas-action-alert-email-today-urge-senate-committee-vote-on-tx-knife-law-reform-do-it-today/
There is a bill to remove to remaining restrictions on knives that passed the House, but is apparently stuck in the Senate.
Well, the feds do have some history with "vigorous" enforcement of gun laws in Texas. *cough*Waco*cough*
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Some folks here in STL City blame our constitutional carry system for what has happened here, but they get really irritated when you remind them about how THEY told the polices to bleep off...
But hey... We're #1... And the rest of the state, except for tweakers, is pretty mellow.
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Well, the feds do have some history with "vigorous" enforcement of gun laws in Texas. *cough*Waco*cough*
And it doesn't stop the Feds, just affects state LEO's.
I was reminded the Texas carry restrictions have been in place since around 1871 after Reconstruction ended. I was always told the point was to make the law so local sheriffs and judges could enforce it on anyone they chose to. I heard it referred to as Jim Crow laws but I don't know. I am sure it was used that way in some cases. Democrat control of the legislature and state govt for over 100 years and none of that really changed. Growing up, it seems like a whole lot of adults I knew had a gun in the car anyway.
There were traveling allowances in the law that were supposed to let you carry when "traveling", but the case law was murky at best. That was removed several years ago.
Glad we are leaving that behind. We will see how it works in practice and how much friction there is with some of the big city police departments.
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Got this today from TSRA. Sept 1st is the default day for new laws to go into effect after the session.
Shows what I know. A couple of those about holster restrictions for Open Carry I didn't know about.
You already know that House Bill 1927 by Representative Matt Schaefer passed and is on it's way to the Governor's desk! Governor Abbott has already said he'd sign it! The effective date is September 1, 2021. (Permitless Carry)
Also, I have reported that House Bill 2622 by Representative Justin Holland (Sanctuary State) has been sent to the Governor.
House Bill 957 by Representative Tom Oliverson has been sent to the Governor for his signature. This is the "Suppressor Bill" many of you have asked about. A suppressor that is entirely manufactured in Texas with Texas materials would be considered legal by Texas as long as you don't cross state lines. It must also be stamped "Made in Texas" . There are requirements for manufacturers so if you are one and want to know more, email me, please.
Senate Bill 550 by Senator Drew Springer has been sent to the Governor. This bill changed the law to allow LTC holders to choose their holster, if they Open Carry.
House Bill 2112 by Representative Will Metcalf also passed and awaits a signature. This bill also eliminates the requirement for which holster LTC holders use for Open Carry.
House Bill 1500 by Representative Cole Hefner is also on it's way for the Governor's signature. This bill says that in a declared emergency or disaster, NO Governor can prohibit or restrict the sale, transportation, or use of firearms and/or ammunition. Remember this is NOT in reference to anything Governor Abbott has done but does protect us long into the future with any Governor.
Senate Bill 19 by Senator Brandon Creighton is on it's way to the Governor's desk. This is the bill that forbids state agencies from doing business with a company who has a practice or policy of discriminating against a firearm entity.
Senate Bill 20 by Senator Donna Campbell is also headed for signature by the Governor. This bill allows lawful possessors of firearms and/or ammunition to transport the same directly to their hotel room and directly to their vehicle. (The establishment may make a provision for "cased" or "concealed" firearms, so bring your long gun case if you are traveling.)
House Bill 2675 by Representative Ryan Guillen also passed and awaits the Governor's signature. This would allow for expedited LTC's for those under protective orders for the duration of that protective order.
House Bill 918 by Representative Ben Leman has been sent to the Governor for signature. This bill allows for those over the age of 18 AND in possession of a protective order, to be eligible for a temporary LTC for the duration of the order.
House Bill 1407 by Representative Matt Schaeffer is on the Governor's desk. This allows for LTC's to keep their gun in a holster, but no longer requires the owner to keep the gun out of sight while in their vehicle, as long as the firearm and the LTC holder are in the vehicle.
House Bill 1387 by Representative Cody Harris allows Foster parents to store their firearms and ammunition in the same locked safe and removes the trigger lock requirement.
Session doesn't officially end until Monday and I will check my tracker to see if there are additional bills of note to send to you but otherwise I think these are the biggest ones.
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(a quick duckduckgo search) Texans can only carry in a belt or shoulder holster, unless concealed? Interesting.
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Texas has a lot of damn rules for being pro-gun.
Why does one need/want a LTC if Texas has permitless carry?
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Texas has a lot of damn rules for being pro-gun.
Why does one need/want a LTC if Texas has permitless carry?
Reciprocity with other states.
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Texas has a lot of damn rules for being pro-gun.
Why does one need/want a LTC if Texas has permitless carry?
Over a hundred years of Democrats running the state leaves a mark. =) However, I freely admit that Texas has plenty of people (R's included) who like rules. It is always a political struggle to keep those out of the law. Texas is not as libertarian as I would like.
IMO, most people won't really see the need to carry at all. Constitutional carry may result in a reduction in the number of LTC permits. We will see.
Buy a gun without calling the FBI is the main reason I plan to keep my LTC. Just renewed it this Spring. I guess most people aren't buying many guns. The fee is $40 for 5 years and the initial training class is not required for renewals. So it isn't very expensive to maintain. There were initially a lot of rules/exceptions accepted to get the law passed back in the 90's. Most have been removed over the last 25 years.
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Reciprocity with other states.
Forgot about that one. A couple of years ago it was nice to drive to the NRA Show in Indianapolis and carry the whole trip. Just had to avoid Illinois.
Closest contact with officials was when the SS was in the hotel due to Trump Jr. having some sort of event there.
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Texas has a lot of damn rules for being pro-gun.
Why does one need/want a LTC if Texas has permitless carry?
The holster one really threw me for a loop. No offense to the Texans on the forum, but for all the MSM whiners always focusing on Texas as the opposite of "good" states, like CA and NY, really when they always compare TX and CA, in many ways, they are comparing one authoritarian state with another. It's just that Texas generally does the authoritarian thing (these days anyway) in a direction that is pretty good freedom-wise. Weird stuff like holster regulations not withstanding.
And yeah, LTC for reciprocity and also no background check when buying guns in states that do that. Idaho has a standard and enhanced. I still just have the standard because I didn't want to wait to take a class when I moved here and have my Utah permit for states that don't take the regular Idaho license. The Idaho enhanced is accepted in a half dozen or so more states than my regular one.
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Ben, does the Enhanced come with the power to curve your shots, or do you have gun katas, or something?
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Ben, does the Enhanced come with the power to curve your shots, or do you have gun katas, or something?
Enhanced levels you up to John Wick.
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Super enhanced gives you John Wick/Neo powers.
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Over a hundred years of Democrats running the state leaves a mark. =) However, I freely admit that Texas has plenty of people (R's included) who like rules. It is always a political struggle to keep those out of the law. Texas is not as libertarian as I would like.
........
There were initially a lot of rules/exceptions accepted to get the law passed back in the 90's. Most have been removed over the last 25 years.
Nice to see we're nibbling the other way at gun laws. Though we should be chomping.
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Louisiana has passed Constitutional Carry BUT the Gov has said he will Veto it. It remains to be seen if we can overturn a veto. My money says they can't overturn his veto. :mad: :'(
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I cannot see Oregon or Washington going Constitutional carry in my lifetime, although you can open carry without a permit in Washington.
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I cannot see Oregon or Washington going Constitutional carry in my lifetime, although you can open carry without a permit in Washington.
Be careful with that -- it's a trap. Pennsylvania has the same situation. According to www.handgunlaw.us:
Open Carry is legal but you must have a valid permit/license to carry a loaded handgun in any vehicle in Washington.This includes Cars, Buses and Trains. You can keep the firearm holstered with empty chamber on your hip in your vehicle (can’t be concealed) but the loaded mag must be removed.Places as listed in the “Places Off Limits” above apply to those who open carry. All School Property and Facilities used for school functions are off limits to those without a valid permit/license. See the “RV/Car Carry Without a Permit” section for more information on carrying in a vehicle.
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I didn't know that Art Acevedo had jumped ship to move from Houston to Miami. He's im Miami now, but that doesn't stop him from opening his pie hole about the new law in Texas:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-gun-law-miami-police-chief-art-acevedo/?intcid=CNI-00-10aaa3b
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I didn't hear anyone sad to see him go.
The almost amusing part is he was actually getting publicly upset with the leftist judges and prosecutors in Houston for letting felony suspects go on personal recognizance bonds (no money). There were at least a couple incidents (maybe more) where they were committing more crimes the same day they got out. I think one murdered an officer, but I don't remember for sure.
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I didn't know that Art Acevedo had jumped ship to move from Houston to Miami. He's im Miami now, but that doesn't stop him from opening his pie hole about the new law in Texas:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-gun-law-miami-police-chief-art-acevedo/?intcid=CNI-00-10aaa3b
While the measure is backed by the National Rifle Association, law enforcement groups and police chiefs in the state oppose the measure, known as "constitutional carry."
I expect police chiefs to always side with the commies, but what police groups in Texas were against it? In most states with CC, the cop groups seem to be for it, or at least neutral.
I didn't know Acevedo was formerly from Houston. I saw his statements about the Miami shooting, where every other sentence was "guns and gun violence".
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I expect police chiefs to always side with the commies, but what police groups in Texas were against it? In most states with CC, the cop groups seem to be for it, or at least neutral.
I didn't know Acevedo was formerly from Houston. I saw his statements about the Miami shooting, where every other sentence was "guns and gun violence".
Police groups are often against expanded gun rights of any kind until they actually see the results and see it doesn't mean "blood running in the streets".
Acevedo spent time in Houston. I think he was in San Antonio before that and some other city prior. I think a lot of these big city police chiefs get recycled around. I heard he took a pay cut to go to Miami. With all the liberal judges releasing violent offenders in Houston, crime has been going up. He was going to get blamed/fired before long.
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Michigan has a good deal of Rs and Ds who are pushing for Constitutional carry at best, and at worst cutting down on all the red tape and fees to get a CPL. Whitmer would veto any bill, though. I'm unsure if there are enough Rs and Ds to override.
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The Sheriffs in my state keep torpedoing permitless carry... because they get to keep all the money for the permit fees in their department slush funds to spend at their discretion. ;/
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The Sheriffs in my state keep torpedoing permitless carry... because they get to keep all the money for the permit fees in their department slush funds to spend at their discretion. ;/
Most people who have permits will keep them anyway, in order to travel with interstate reciprocity.
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That's what I plan to do. The state's made renewing a lot easier, it's done online, and cheaper.
On the other hand, SWMBO had let her permission slip lapse, this'll let her carry without having to retake the class.
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That's what I plan to do. The state's made renewing a lot easier, it's done online, and cheaper.
Utah is excellent in that regard. I just renewed my non-resident and did it all on my phone, including my photos. They have a new app that practically does everything for you. You pay through the app and you're done. I had the new permit like 5 days later.
I haven't looked into what Idaho renewal is like. Hopefully they'll have something similar when I renew. Though by then I might just suck it up, take the damn class, and get the enhanced, then let Utah lapse next time around.
With an Idaho enhanced and my Oregon non-resident permit, I can carry pretty much anywhere I care to go. Except California. Not that I care to go there, but family issues and all.
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On the other hand, SWMBO had let her permission slip lapse, this'll let her carry without having to retake the class.
I forgot to renew in February, and didn't notice until a few weeks ago. I was very happy to be living in a freedom carry state. =) Welcome to the party, Texans!
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Michigan has a good deal of Rs and Ds who are pushing for Constitutional carry at best, and at worst cutting down on all the red tape and fees to get a CPL. Whitmer would veto any bill, though. I'm unsure if there are enough Rs and Ds to override.
Politics:
If I were an anti-2A Democrat, and I know the Governor will veto a pro-2A bill, I might throw my support into the bill just to curry favor with some righties. I might even vote for it just to boost my NRA "grade" by a + or even a whole letter.
:Politics
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I forgot to renew in February, and didn't notice until a few weeks ago. I was very happy to be living in a freedom carry state. =) Welcome to the party, Texans!
Better late than never! =)
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I got screwed up once on the mm-dd-yy /dd-mm-yy mixup and ran around town for a couple of months with an expired ticket.
Apparently, somehow mm-dd-yy is "standard" and the more logical dd-mm-yy is not. I was OK on a standard renewal after all, though.
Of course, a changeover would be a logistical nightmare, with new tickets using dd-mm, and older ones remaining mm-dd for a couple of years.
No, I did not grouse about the whole "permit" infringement being 2A unconstitutional. I wax stoopit sometimes, but not that time.
"The way to a long and happy life is to eat well, sleep well, marry well, and don't let your name get too well known to the authorities." --Unknown
Terry, 230RN
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Keep that commie dd-mm-yy stuff in Europe. THIS IS MERICA!
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Yep. Illogical 'Murica. Maybe a compromise can be reached with the even more logical yy-mm-dd, like money, most significant bits to the left.
We don't write a million dollars as 00.000,000,1$ after all.
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Apparently, somehow mm-dd-yy is "standard" and the more logical dd-mm-yy is not.
More logical in your mind, not mine.
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The best way to write dates, for human readers, is something like "6 Jun 2021." It uses the month's name, which is easily and immediately understood. It's also balanced - numbers, letters, numbers. Also, it avoids slash marks. They're OK when typed, but hand-written slashes often look like 1s. If one insists on using only numbers for dates, dashes should be used ("6-6-2021").
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The best way to write dates, for human readers, is something like "6 Jun 2021."
Most of the parts of fed.gov I worked for and with used that format, or abbreviated, 06JUN21. It's also the kraut (and I think much of Europe) dating system, so I have always been accustomed to it. It does often throw people off when I sign some form that requires a date. When doing that kind of stuff, I try to remember to default to MDY, but often forget, and have had people question it on more than one occasion.
Time is similar. I still more often than not find myself saying "2100" instead of "9PM". This is also partially from 20 years of saying it at work and the kraut (euro) method of telling time. Krauts will say, "21 uhr", or directly translated, "21 o'clock". Though when talking to kraut relatives, if I say 2100 as "twenty one hundred", they laugh at me. As an American kraut, I don't see much difference between 2100 and 21 o'clock.
I'm just guessing, but I think part of the euro 24 vs 12 hour format is train related.
And I just realized... This is one of our bigger thread veers: Carry permits to time/date formats. :laugh:
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Do you say Dec 7th 1941 or 7th of Dec 1941? The America way is more like the way we typically say dates
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"And I just realized... This is one of our bigger thread veers: Carry permits to time/date formats. :laugh:"
Only because of the gap in my licensure due to it.
I don't see why it is not logical to Fly320s. It's a question of ordering by magnitude, dd-mm-yy as opposed to mm-dd-yy.
Note that if the expiration had been 01-11-YY or 11-01-YY there could have been a significant problem.
I also note the fact that any "standardization" can be pre-chosen in many word processing schemes. I agree that the format 06 JUN 21 is the most preferable scheme and that's the usuall way I write dates. If that had been used, I would not have had that period of running around armed and unpermitted. The only way to discriminate between mm-dd and dd-mm is if one of those numbers is above 12. As it happened, neither of those numbers was above 12 in my permit's expiration date.
And if this were a Constitutional Carry State, the problem would not have existed.
I think that's quite relevant to the thread topic.
Terry
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Do you say Dec 7th 1941 or 7th of Dec 1941? The America way is more like the way we typically say dates
I say "The day of infamy".
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Let's not confuse "what you're used to" with "what is logical," Captain.
Andi n speaking, as in President Roosevelt's request for a Declaration of War, there is no ambiguity when the month is actually spoken.
"Yesterday, 07-12-41, a date which will live in infamy*..." could have been July twelfth. But so could have "12-07-41."
Let's not confuse "what you're used to" with "what is logical," Captain.
Terry
* December 8th in Japan because of the date line in the middle of the Pacific.
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Let's not confuse "what you're used to" with "what is logical," Captain.
Andi n speaking, as in President Roosevelt's request for a Declaration of War, there is no ambiguity when the month is actually spoken.
"Yesterday, 07-12-41, a date which will live in infamy*..." could have been July twelfth. But so could have "12-07-41."
Let's not confuse "what you're used to" with "what is logical," Captain.
Terry
* December 8th in Japan because of the date line in the middle of the Pacific.
The whole calendar system is illogical when you get down to it. Remember what happened when the French tried fixing that*?
And so is the Imperial measurement system or whatever it's called this week, time measurement, and compass/angle degree points.
*Including clocks
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The whole calendar system is illogical when you get down to it.
And so is ..., time measurement, and compass/angle degree points.
I'll bite. What is wrong in your mind with those systems?
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The whole calendar system is illogical when you get down to it. Remember what happened when the French tried fixing that*?
And so is the Imperial measurement system or whatever it's called this week, time measurement, and compass/angle degree points.
*Including clocks
There are all kinds of confusions in all kinds of measurement systems. Why not 100 degree circles and ten hour clocks?
One confusion in my mind is a case of the use of "a handgun" in our (Commierado's) permitting literature. Does that prohibit the use of a backup piece?
Many states have explanations that use of the singular means any number, use of a date means any date thereafter, use of the male gender means females as well, et cetera. I hope that exists in Colorado law, but I never delved into it in detail.
It concerned me because I used to carry a backup gun and didn't know if I was committing a technical violation.
Still relevant, K-Frame Ben*, since the Second Amendment uses the plural, and if we (Commierado) were "Constitutional Carry," backup guns would be OK, nicht wahr?
roffle
Terry, 230RN
* Oops, sorry. Note the German, a nod to Ben's heritage.
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"Still relevant, K-Frame,"
Say what now? I don't think I've posted in this thread before this....
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^ Correction made, and thanks.
Glad at least one person is reading my stuff. =D
Terry
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Two thieves stole a calendar a few months ago.
They both got 6 months.
=)
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Louisiana has passed Constitutional Carry BUT the Gov has said he will Veto it. It remains to be seen if we can overturn a veto. My money says they can't overturn his veto. :mad: :'(
Yep
Louisiana Governor John Bel Edwards Vetoes Constitutional Carry Bill
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/louisiana-governor-john-bel-edwards-vetoes-constitutional-carry-bill/
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Lame.
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Lame.
Well, the other 21 states with permitless carry have blood running in the streets, so...
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There are all kinds of confusions in all kinds of measurement systems. Why not 100 degree circles and ten hour clocks?
One confusion in my mind is a case of the use of "a handgun" in our (Commierado's) permitting literature. Does that prohibit the use of a backup piece?
Many states have explanations that use of the singular means any number, use of a date means any date thereafter, use of the male gender means females as well, et cetera. I hope that exists in Colorado law, but I never delved into it in detail.
It concerned me because I used to carry a backup gun and didn't know if I was committing a technical violation.
Still relevant, K-Frame Ben*, since the Second Amendment uses the plural, and if we (Commierado) were "Constitutional Carry," backup guns would be OK, nicht wahr?
roffle
Terry, 230RN
* Oops, sorry. Note the German, a nod to Ben's heritage.
I wasn't sure so I looked it up. Another link included some other possible origins, but ancient astronomy makes a lot of sense. The 12 hour day/month is based out of that also.
https://www.physlink.com/Education/Askexperts/ae373.cfm
It was during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar (605-562 BC) in the Chaldean dynasty in Babylon that the circle was divided into 360 degrees. This was because the Chaldeans had calculated by observation and inference that a complete year numbered 360 days. The basis of angular measure for the mathematicians of Babylon was the angle at each of the corners of an equilateral triangle. They did not have decimal fractions and thus found it difficult to deal with remainders when doing division. So they agreed to divide the corner of an equilateral triangle into 60 degrees, because 60 could be divided by 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 without remainder. Each degree was divided into 60 minutes and each minute into 60 seconds. If the angles at the corners of six equilateral triangles are placed together they form the angle formed by a complete circle. It is for this reason that there are six times 60 degrees of arc in the complete circle.
Setting up a system where the math can be done with whole numbers makes a lot of sense, most especially when you have to do it in your head.
There were plenty of other links that went into a lot more. Seems there is a great deal of history around that issue.
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I got hold of a Texas Constitutional Carry guide done by US Law Shield. It is in PDF. Not sure how to put it up for download, but I can email it if anyone wants to see it.
Someone who is not a resident of Texas can carry.
It apparently only applies to handguns which is odd, but rifles were already allowed for open carry.
The guide says typical "no guns" type signs can be enforced as well as a new 30.05 sign. A specific 30.06 signage is the only sign that is effective for LTC holders.
There may be an issue being within 1000 feet of a school since existing law only makes an exception for LTC holders.
There is a list of 14 or so places carry is not allowed. Sucks but something that ought to be fixed. I don't remember the LTC restrictions being that long.
Schools, Polling Places, Courts, Racetracks, Secured area of airports, within 1000 feet of a place of execution, Bars (51% location), Proff sporting events, Correctional Facilities, civil commitment facilities, Hospitals/nursing homes, mental hospitals, amusement parks, room of an open meeting of a govt entity.
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^^^Racetracks? Hmm.
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^^^Racetracks? Hmm.
Similar to a sporting event maybe?
I get the impression that when the opposition doesn't like a bill, but can't stop it, the game then becomes "How many BS rules and exceptions can we insert".
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List looks like the same one used for LTC restrictions.
Brad
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List looks like the same one used for LTC restrictions.
Brad
The two key differences to me:
1. The deal about having a gun within 1000 feet of a school. Apparently the law that allowed an LTC holder to keep their gun in the parking lot specifically said LTC holders and may not apply to constitutional carry.
2. Generic no-guns signs will legally apply where those were meaningless to an LTC holder.
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There may be an issue being within 1000 feet of a school since existing law only makes an exception for LTC holders.
That's definitely an issue, and not just for Texas or even for all "constitutional carry" states. It's also an issue with reciprocity.
The issue is the federal Gun Free School Zones Act, which makes it a federal felony to possess a firearm (maybe only applies to handguns -- I don't remember) within 1,000 feet of a school property. The exception to which you refer is for holders of a carry license/permit, but it has to be issued by the state in which the school is located. Reciprocal recognition by one state of your home state permit doesn't provide protection under the GFSZ Act.
And, of course, your point is spot on -- constitutional carry is no help under the federal GFSZ Act.
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It has been legal to have a concealed firearm in your car for a few years now. That has never come up to my knowledge. Maybe because it is concealed. I doubt it will come up with Constitutional Carry either, but I guess it could.
Never heard of anyone jogging or walking past a school while open carrying.
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It has been legal to have a concealed firearm in your car for a few years now. That has never come up to my knowledge. Maybe because it is concealed. I doubt it will come up with Constitutional Carry either, but I guess it could.
Never heard of anyone jogging or walking past a school while open carrying.
Castle Doctrine thing. Your vehicle is considered an extension of your home, thus you are within your rights to have a firearm in it regardless of carry license status.
Brad
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Never heard of anyone jogging or walking past a school while open carrying.
The federal GFSZ law isn't limited to open carry, and it isn't limited to pedestrians.
https://handgunlaw.us/documents/BATFLetterONGFSZ2013.pdf
18 U.S.C. 922 (scroll down to (q) for the GFSZA):
https://law.justia.com/codes/us/2010/title18/parti/chap44/sec922/
(q)(1) The Congress finds and declares that—
(A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a pervasive, nationwide problem;
(B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate movement of drugs, guns, and criminal gangs;
(C) firearms and ammunition move easily in interstate commerce and have been found in increasing numbers in and around schools, as documented in numerous hearings in both the Committee on the Judiciary 3 the House of Representatives and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate;
(D) in fact, even before the sale of a firearm, the gun, its component parts, ammunition, and the raw materials from which they are made have considerably moved in interstate commerce;
(E) while criminals freely move from State to State, ordinary citizens and foreign visitors may fear to travel to or through certain parts of the country due to concern about violent crime and gun violence, and parents may decline to send their children to school for the same reason;
(F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;
(G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the United States;
(H) States, localities, and school systems find it almost impossible to handle gun-related crime by themselves—even States, localities, and school systems that have made strong efforts to prevent, detect, and punish gun-related crime find their efforts unavailing due in part to the failure or inability of other States or localities to take strong measures; and
(I) the Congress has the power, under the interstate commerce clause and other provisions of the Constitution, to enact measures to ensure the integrity and safety of the Nation's schools by enactment of this subsection.
(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
(3)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the discharge of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
(iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or
(iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.
(4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.
(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to—
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.
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I can hear them screaming now "The blood in the streets has started"
From what I see Darwin scores again!
Long story short guy with his family in the car shoots man approaching his car with a gun after road rage incident.
Photo of the guy shot tells me a lot about his personality.
Driver Shoots, Kills Armed Motorcyclist Who Came Towards Him On I-35, Fort Worth Police Say
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKfS3CaFTVg
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Couple of our local news stations are running stories and posting them to FB every chance they get. They aren't terrible in terms of bias, but it's definitely lurking under the surface. It's obvious they're mining for FB comments supporting a repeal of the new law, but the majority comments keep coming back in support of the new (a thin majority, but a majority nonetheless). As expected, the "ERMAGHURD BLOOD IN THE STREETS!!" crowd is parroting all the usual blather.
Brad
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I don't know if the motor vehicle laws on this are uniform throughout all 50 states. In my state, it's illegal for motorcyclists to ride between lanes. That don't stop the punks on crotch rockets from doing it, but it is illegal.
It sounds to me like this was a case of Darwin's law being proved by real life results.
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The two key differences to me:
1. The deal about having a gun within 1000 feet of a school. Apparently the law that allowed an LTC holder to keep their gun in the parking lot specifically said LTC holders and may not apply to constitutional carry...
Same thing we have in MO. There are a number of situations where it's illegal to carry, but there's an exemption for those with permits.
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Same thing we have in MO. There are a number of situations where it's illegal to carry, but there's an exemption for those with permits.
Having a gun in your car isn't tied to a Texas LTC. It's an extension of the Castle Doctrine laws. Your car is considered an extension of your home no matter LTC status where the vehicle is parked, so having a gun in it is okie dokie (unless it's federal property or in a Native American territory, then you're SOL). At least that's the law as I understand it, bit IANAL, YMMV, etc, etc.
*Edit to add* Found the relevant law. It's Texas HB 1815 represented under Texas Penal Code 46.02(a)(2)(b). Straight up states any Texan who can legally own a firearm can have it in their vehicle or watercraft so long as it's concealed and they aren't engaged in criminal activity.
Brad
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I am still curious if the school issue would ever come up resulting from a traffic stop or some other circumstance.
The jogging/walking scenario I bought up was just brainstorming. I can't think of much other way it would come up without it being tied to some other offense. Either way, I think it is unlikely.
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*Edit to add* Found the relevant law. It's Texas HB 1815 represented under Texas Penal Code 46.02(a)(2)(b). Straight up states any Texan who can legally own a firearm can have it in their vehicle or watercraft so long as it's concealed and they aren't engaged in criminal activity.
This law does not provide any protection against the federal GFSZA law. The exception in the federal law very clearly applies to those who hold a license issued by the state in which the school is located. A state law that allows possession of a loaded firearm without a license obviously doesn't seem to satisfy this.
Any lawyers present? Does a state law such as this constitute "license" under the language of the GFSZA?
(q)(1)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a
firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to
believe, is a school zone.
`(B) Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to the possession of a firearm--
`(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
`(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by
the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision
of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires
that, before an individual obtain such a license, the law enforcement
authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual
is qualified under law to receive the license;
`(iii) which is--
`(I) not loaded; and
`(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack which is in a
motor vehicle;
`(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the
school zone;
`(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between
a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the
individual;
`(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
`(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing
school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private
lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by
school authorities.
My understanding is that the qualification means a criminal background check, and Texas Penal Code 46.02(a)(2)(b) doesn't require a background check.
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Subsection (B)(i)... "(i) on private property not part of school grounds;"
Texas has been very clear that a vehicle, as an extension of the home, is considered private property. That is, at least for the purposes of LTC law. No idea how they intend to treat it for the purposes of Constitutional Carry but I don't see them backing off the "car is part of your home" mindset for lots of reasons.
For a bit of elaboration on the Texas rules, see the US Law Shield section on it. Scroll down to "Is the federal gun-free school zone law the same?" for relevant info on school zones.
https://www.uslawshield.com/guns-and-school-zones-what-is-the-law/
Brad
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What Texas considers to be "an extension" of the castle is not binding on federal law. I very seriously doubt that anyone charged under the GFSZA for having a loaded firearm in a vehicle within a school zone would get off by claiming that they are exempted because Texas considers a vehicle to be an extension of the home.
If you wish to become the test case, I'll contribute a few bucks to your defense fund, but I won't consider it money well spent unless you get off.
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What Texas considers to be "an extension" of the castle is not binding on federal law. I very seriously doubt that anyone charged under the GFSZA for having a loaded firearm in a vehicle within a school zone would get off by claiming that they are exempted because Texas considers a vehicle to be an extension of the home.
There is no need for a test case because GFSZA already contains provisions for certain exclusions, including one for state-issued concealed carry licensees.
From the USLawShield article linked prior
Is the federal gun-free school zone law the same?
No. The federal law does create an entirely new offense. Under federal law, there’s a blanket prohibition that makes it illegal to possess a gun within 1,000 feet of a public, parochial, or private school. There are some exceptions, which make that prohibition a little easier to stomach. Here are the three most common:
The first is for a person with a license to carry a handgun issued by the state where the school zone is located. This means that a Texas resident, who holds a Texas LTC, can carry in a school zone in Texas, as long as they follow all other Texas laws. However, that same Texas LTC holder would run afoul of the federal gun-free school zone law if he or she were in another state besides Texas. The converse holds true as well.
Second, a person who lives within 1,000 feet of a school is also allowed to keep a firearm on their privately owned property, as long as it is not part of the school grounds.
The third most common exception is that you’re permitted to carry an unloaded gun in a locked case or in a locked gun rack. Although it is currently illegal for a teacher to carry a gun in a school building without a written regulation in place or written authorization from the institution, this is a fast-changing area of the law across the country that may very well impact Texas. In fact, in the last legislative session, Texas made it illegal for a teacher or school employee with an LTC to be fired by a school or disciplined because they had a handgun in their automobile on a school parking lot.
Brad
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I don't know if the motor vehicle laws on this are uniform throughout all 50 states. In my state, it's illegal for motorcyclists to ride between lanes. That don't stop the punks on crotch rockets from doing it, but it is illegal.
It sounds to me like this was a case of Darwin's law being proved by real life results.
Don't know about any states other than CA & TX - CA is legal to lane-split, TX is not legal to lane-split. TX tried to change it recently, almost passed.
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Don't know about any states other than CA & TX - CA is legal to lane-split, TX is not legal to lane-split. TX tried to change it recently, almost passed.
I used to hate the lane splitting in CA. The vast majority of those guys were extremely dangerous. It appears it is illegal in most states:
https://advrider.com/lane-splitting-motorcycle-laws-state-by-state/
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Personally, I like lane splitting. I've set in stopped traffic during the summer in SoCal - ain't fun.
There are aholes who abuse it. Just like there are aholes who will abuse every/any situation.
Then there are those who abuse it just for the adrenaline rush.
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When I was stationed in San Diego I lived in El Cajon and made the 25 mile commute to Ballast Point on a 1980 KZ 750. I seem to remember that lane splitting was legal at the time (1983-1985). I would occasionally do it but the odds of some jackass opening a door or deliberately blocking you was pretty high.
When I did lane split I'd ride just fast enough to remain stable.
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There is no need for a test case because GFSZA already contains provisions for certain exclusions, including one for state-issued concealed carry licensees.
Yes, I know. I have stated that at least twice in the course of this thread. I even quoted the text of the exception.
What we are discussing now is the new Texas law that will allow permitless carry -- and how doing that will leave people open to being arrested and charged for violating the GFSZA because they don't have a license issued by the state in which the school is located.
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When I did lane split I'd ride just fast enough to remain stable.
That would be fine to me, and to be fair to CA and the motorcyclists there that followed the law, it appears 10MPH is the maximum speed allowed to lane split. I had no problems with those who slowly rode their bikes through stopped traffic. The ones who were going a LOT faster than that through slightly moving traffic made me nervous.
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Yes, I know. I have stated that at least twice in the course of this thread. I even quoted the text of the exception.
What we are discussing now is the new Texas law that will allow permitless carry -- and how doing that will leave people open to being arrested and charged for violating the GFSZA because they don't have a license issued by the state in which the school is located.
My bad, then. I was perceiving your statements in the context of general application biasing towards LTC holders. Apologies.
Brad
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I saw lane splitting done on my one trip to the LA area. I lean against motorcycles have extra allowances in traffic. Seems to me it is simpler if everyone follows the same rules.
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Louisiana Governor John Bel Edwards Vetoes Constitutional Carry Bill
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/louisiana-governor-john-bel-edwards-vetoes-constitutional-carry-bill/
Not over yet
Louisiana Legislature to Hold First-Ever Veto Override Session to Vote on Constitutional Carry
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/louisiana-legislature-to-hold-first-ever-veto-override-session-to-vote-on-constitutional-carry/
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Never mind
BREAKING: Louisiana Legislature Fails to Override Veto of Constitutional Carry Bill
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/breaking-louisiana-legislature-fails-to-override-veto-of-constitutional-carry/
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This was with respect to the Texas constitutional carry bill on APS June 4 2021:
https://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=64335.msg1308418;topicseen#msg1308418
Quote:
________________________________________
Politics:
If I were an anti-2A Democrat, and I know the Governor will veto a pro-2A bill, I might throw my support into the bill just to curry favor with some righties. I might even vote for it just to boost my NRA "grade" by a + or even a whole letter.
___________________________________
Tolja.
That's Politics, folks. You can't trust a damned one of them.
Terry, 230RN
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I saw lane splitting done on my one trip to the LA area. I lean against motorcycles have extra allowances in traffic. Seems to me it is simpler if everyone follows the same rules.
Strikes me that engine cooling is a factor in doing lane splitting. Am I wrong?
I don't remember doing it when I was riding, but then again, I rarely got into congested situations on the highway. Anyhow, I thought of that while reading this thread.
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I got caught in SoCal traffic bad enough to overheat a water cooled Goldwing. Air cooled engines have it even tougher.
Being able to get out of stalled/slow traffic is a plus with lane splitting.
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Thanks, Cliffh.
I kind of wondered about that, so I took this opportunity to ask even though the thread has already drifted a bit.
Most of my riding was day-trip-fun (CL 350), not commuting to work or anything, but even stopped at long left-turn lights, overheating had occurred to me. :)
Sehr Gracias
Terry
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Thread drift? At APS? Never!
Gern geschehen
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It's been 13 hours since the law went into effect. Are the streets jammed with bodies yet?
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You know what I think should be allowed?
You have an intersection, and there's basically gridlocked stop and go traffic.
The other side of the intersection is full. The light is green, but you sit, and wait for there to be room on the other side. Then Sumdood guns his Charger past you, and pulls up, actually in the intersection. If you're lucky, nobody else does, but some idiot is going to think that that is okay, and join him.
In the intersection.
And then traffic is REALLY blocked and snarled...
We should be allowed to execute them, and then auction their cars.
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I've been at home since this went into effect, and plan to stay here until at least tomorrow morning.
I'll be watching the news to see what the immediate outcome is.
Actually, it's my day off. I've been working on the mower & mowing the yard. Don't really expect anything different when I go to work tomorrow.
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Hurricane Ida has bypassed permitless carry Texas, and slammed permission slip Louisiana. You have been warned, anti-gunners!
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You know what I think should be allowed?
You have an intersection, and there's basically gridlocked stop and go traffic.
The other side of the intersection is full. The light is green, but you sit, and wait for there to be room on the other side. Then Sumdood guns his Charger past you, and pulls up, actually in the intersection. If you're lucky, nobody else does, but some idiot is going to think that that is okay, and join him.
In the intersection.
And then traffic is REALLY blocked and snarled...
We should be allowed to execute them, and then auction their cars.
The annoying thing is, if anti-gun propaganda is to be believed, that's exactly what Texas just legalized.
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/Screen-Shot-2021-08-02-at-9.webp)
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The streets of Kansas and Missouri only ran red for a couple days. Then we were all dead.
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You know what I think should be allowed?
You have an intersection, and there's basically gridlocked stop and go traffic.
The other side of the intersection is full. The light is green, but you sit, and wait for there to be room on the other side. Then Sumdood guns his Charger past you, and pulls up, actually in the intersection. If you're lucky, nobody else does, but some idiot is going to think that that is okay, and join him.
In the intersection.
And then traffic is REALLY blocked and snarled...
We should be allowed to execute them, and then auction their cars.
I am willing to sign a petition for your campaign. Is that just one plank in your platform, is is that your complete platform?
Either way, you have my vote.
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/Screen-Shot-2021-08-02-at-9.webp)
We need just 5 more states to pass Constitutional Carry to have a simple majority.
Who's next? FL, PA, NV are the top contenders in my book. Maybe MI, OH, NC are next.
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The streets of Kansas and Missouri only ran red for a couple days. Then we were all dead.
I assume that's a joke?
I don't get it.
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We need just 5 more states to pass Constitutional Carry to have a simple majority.
Who's next? FL, PA, NV are the top contenders in my book. Maybe MI, OH, NC are next.
LA came very close to getting it passed. A few legislators were bought off by the Gov. to prevent Veto override. Maybe see what happens after the next election.
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We need just 5 more states to pass Constitutional Carry to have a simple majority.
Who's next? FL, PA, NV are the top contenders in my book. Maybe MI, OH, NC are next.
Nebraska is a rural state, what's going on there? Also Mississippi and Alabama. Aren't they filled with rednecks? I hate to say it, but I don't have high hopes for FL or NV at this time. I mean, if it got to the Governor's desk in FL, I bet he would sign, but it's the getting there.
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I doubt Ohio will go Constitutional carry. DeWine won't sign, even if they get that far.
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Also Mississippi and Alabama. Aren't they filled with rednecks?
In Alabama, the permit fees go to a slush fund for the sheriffs- that they can spend any way they want. They raise a fuss every time it seems like Constitional Carry might pass. There is one vile senator that keeps blocking it.
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Nebraska is a rural state, what's going on there? Also Mississippi and Alabama. Aren't they filled with rednecks? I hate to say it, but I don't have high hopes for FL or NV at this time. I mean, if it got to the Governor's desk in FL, I bet he would sign, but it's the getting there.
If it were up to the Gov here in NV I am sure he would go door to door taking guns. NV is shading to the blue side of purple.
bob
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We need just 5 more states to pass Constitutional Carry to have a simple majority.
Who's next? FL, PA, NV are the top contenders in my book. Maybe MI, OH, NC are next.
NC will never go Constitutional Carry. We have a flaming leftist for a governor, and that is not likely to change.
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We need just 5 more states to pass Constitutional Carry to have a simple majority.
Who's next? FL, PA, NV are the top contenders in my book. Maybe MI, OH, NC are next.
It won't happen in Pennsylvania. Philadelphia will see to that.
PA already has a watered-down version. Open carry is legal without a permit everywhere except in Philadelphia. The catch is that it's only good when you're walking. In a vehicle, you can't carry a loaded firearm without a license. And Philadelphia cops routinely ignore even the existing law and bust anyone they see open carrying.
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Constitutional Carry Bill Introduced Again in Florida…Is the Third Time the Charm?
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/constitutional-carry-billintroduced-again-in-florida-is-the-third-time-the-charm/
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This type of statement pisses me off to no end. Whether the gun is concealed, open, with or without a permit doesn't mean squat. If a person is going to bad things they will be done. Yet they continue to use it in order to frighten the people who aren't bothered to learn the truth or just want to ignore it.
Griffith said another concern is that the law makes it more difficult for police to differentiate between a "good guy with a gun," and someone who may have bad intentions.
https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/in-depth/2021/08/24/406649/permitless-carry-in-texas-heres-what-you-need-to-know/
bob
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I've always wondered about why concealed carry was soooo bad. It's not like anyone who carries concealed is more likely to shoot the guy across the table for flipping an ace out of his sleeve.
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I've always wondered about why concealed carry was soooo bad. It's not like anyone who carries concealed is more likely to shoot the guy across the table for flipping an ace out of his sleeve.
It is an old idea that dates back to the 1800's at least.... honorable men carried their weapons in a open, manly manner.... cowards hid their guns. CC bans started around the 1820's in the USA in some places, but open carry was pretty much unrestricted everywhere for a very long time.
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I saw something interesting the other day; look at the list of US states by homicide rate for 2019:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_intentional_homicide_rate
The top five states with the lowest rates all have constitutional carry.
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This type of statement pisses me off to no end. Whether the gun is concealed, open, with or without a permit doesn't mean squat. If a person is going to bad things they will be done. Yet they continue to use it in order to frighten the people who aren't bothered to learn the truth or just want to ignore it.
https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/in-depth/2021/08/24/406649/permitless-carry-in-texas-heres-what-you-need-to-know/
bob
Innocent until proven guilty?
More than likely, an officer who spends any time patrolling an area will already know who the problem people are. Not to mention people who do bad things generally have done them before and have the criminal record to show for it.
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It is an old idea that dates back to the 1800's at least.... honorable men carried their weapons in a open, manly manner.... cowards hid their guns. CC bans started around the 1820's in the USA in some places, but open carry was pretty much unrestricted everywhere for a very long time.
My first question is why a coward would be motivated to conceal --does it have anything to do with the notion that an "honorable man" won't shoot an unarmed man? A hangover from the code duelllo?
Isn't it just as likely that a coward would want to carry openly?
Not to mention that our root edition of "common law" (~1791) does not imply that "...bear arms, shall not be infringed" means "...bear arms openly, shall not be infringed."
'Tis a puzzlement.
Terry, 230RN
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Concealed carry bans started in the 1820s...
Before that, there were no bans on carry, open or concealed...
During the 1800's most courts ruled that open carry was protected by the constition, and CC was not (there were a few exceptions).
Given that at the time the Second was written, CC was unregulated everywhere, it is kind of an open question if they thought it was protected by the second or not...
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But since they didn't specify any "manner of carrying," the default is "any method of carrying." That means in your hat or in your jock strap. To specify manner of carrying or "bearing" would be an infringement.
And once again, I point out the stated purpose of the ten amendments was to cement these rights in writing:
"The Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added..."
I further point out that the Second Amendment is possibly the shortest and most concise statement restricting the power of government in the entire constitution, and was carefully thought out, phrased, and ratified, even after the Constitution itself was adopted.
It males me think they meant it.
There I stand.
Terry, 230RN
REF:
https://drexel.edu/ogcr/resources/constitution/amendments/preamble/
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But since they didn't specify any "manner of carrying," the default is "any method of carrying." That means in your hat or in your jock strap. To specify manner of carrying or "bearing" would be an infringement.
I understand your point, and I happen to agree. However, the supreme courts of multiple states disagree. Those courts have ruled that the states may regulate -- but not prohibit -- the carry of firearms. Therefore, if they wish to prohibit concealed carry, then open carry must be allowed. If they wish to prohibit open carry, then concealed carry must be allowed.
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Me: "... was carefully thought out..."
How do you spell "infirinjmint'?
And the "supreme courts" of the states are not the "Supreme Court" ("SCOTUS") and are only ruling on their own constitutions.
And while the Bill of Rights was formally "incorporated to the States" only recently, that does not mean that it was not "incorporated to the States" in all the time before that.
Colorado has some weasel words in its "Bill of Rights" where, while prohibited from calling into question the right to keep arms, this does not mean that concealed carry can not be regulated. (The precise wording is not available to me at this instant.)
Clearly this is unconstitutional in light of the incorporation to the states of the second amendment... despite that Colorado's constitution was adopted in 1876, long before the federal supreme court only recently took up the question of incorporation to the states.
There I stand.
Terry, 230RN
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While at the same time if you attempt to put any, and I mean any, sort of restriction on abortion libs heads explode. Because, you know, abortion is a right guarantied by the constitution.
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Oh, Jesis H. Krist, don't start that one. Talk about thread tsunami. Not helpful, WLJ.
Maybe that's one of the ones which should be left to the states, or to the people.
Let that neverending issue be ended in this thread. There are enough other forums to haggle out that question.
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And the "supreme courts" of the states are not the "Supreme Court" ("SCOTUS") and are only ruling on their own constitutions.
Correct. And each of those state constitutions has a right to keep and bear arms provision that is close to the wording of the federal Second Amendment.
And while the Bill of Rights was formally "incorporated to the States" only recently, that does not mean that it was not "incorporated to the States" in all the time before that.
The Bill of Rights was incorporated only recently? Where'd you hear THAT?
Are you thinking of the fact that the McDonald decision ruled that the 2A applies to the states? That was 2010, so I guess that's comparatively recent. But that was only the Second Amendment. I'm pretty certain most of the other nine amendments in the Bill of Rights had been incorporated long before the McDonald case.
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In the 1800's there were some commentators that said the Second applied to the states, but most courts said it did not- however the Supreme Court actually said states could not disarm the citizens, as it would prevent them from serving in the militia, regardless of the second amendment.
The people who wrote the 14th amendment clearly stated they intended to protect the right to bear arms... black people were being disarmed and murdered, and the 14th amendment was intended to protect against this, among other things.
The courts, however, basically ignored the 14th amendment for a long time. It wasn't until recently, as we know, that the 14th amendment was declared by the court to apply the Second to the states as well... it was a very, very tardy ruling.
Unfortunately, the courts are overwhelmingly packed with people who distain gun rights, and so these rulings have had almost no effect... and the supreme court has, as of now, basically done nothing about it. We will see if this changes soon.
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Maybe that's one of the ones which should be left to the states, or to the people.
Complains about abortion being broached - then suggests Roe v Wade be overturned. :rofl:
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Ahem. One's a clearly enumerated right regarding an objective matter, the other concerns an unenumerated "right" (or something or other) which has a tendency to trigger some people into unlimited and pointless off-topic discussion and ought to be referred to the ultimate civil authority... that is, the people.
And I'm breaking my personal rule to never discuss abortion. Somebody PM me when and if the topic ever gets back to the Second Amendment.
Terry, 230RN
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Ahem. One's a clearly enumerated right regarding an objective matter, the other concerns an unenumerated "right" (or something or other) which has a tendency to trigger some people into unlimited and pointless off-topic discussion and ought to be referred to the ultimate civil authority... that is, the people.
And I'm breaking my personal rule to never discuss abortion. Somebody PM me when and if the topic ever gets back to the Second Amendment.
Terry, 230RN
Ahem yourself. Leaving abortion up to state law is one of the biggest goals of the anti-abortion movement. It's the undoing of Roe v Wade. And you just plumped for it, after lecturing others not to talk about abortion.
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Blood in the streets!
HPD: 3 suspects killed, 1 wounded by homeowner during home invasion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgXB7M358YI
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Good job by the homeowner.
Home invasions should be risky business.