Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ben on June 07, 2021, 03:38:21 PM
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Looks like DOJ just now dropped new stuff on pistol braces. I caught some talk on a youtube news channel. This is the only news story I found so far:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/justice-department-announces-new-steps-to-reduce-gun-violence/ar-AAKNxVv
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Here's the notice of proposed rulemaking:
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/factoring-criteria-firearms-attached-stabilizing-braces
Kinda hard to tell without seeing the actual worksheet they mention, but it seems like maybe the Sig Braces (that go
round the arm) and the hooky ones might still be OK, while things like the KAK Blade that are more "stockish" could be in trouble.
They don't seem to mention use, only "objective design" so at least you don't have to worry about being an accidental felon if it touches your shoulder in recoil. I guess we will see....
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BREAKING: DOJ Announces Proposed Rule to Regulate Braced Pistols as SBRs Under the NFA
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/breaking-doj-announces-proposed-rule-to-regulate-braced-pistols-as-sbrs-under-the-nfa/
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I'm on a mobile right now, so I can't post it for you, but if you click on the link in my first reply there is a button in the second section that says "read proposed rule 2021r-08"
Download the pdf and the proposed worksheet is on pages 15 and 16. Pages 31-42 give some examples with pics and filled out worksheets to give you an idea what they're thinking.
It looks like they are going to make it pretty difficult to have a legal braced pistol.
ETA: also they lay out that there's no tax-free grace period if they just made your pistol an SBR.
Also, I found a direct link to the rule: atf.gov/file/154871/download
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Here's the notice of proposed rulemaking:
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/factoring-criteria-firearms-attached-stabilizing-braces
Kinda hard to tell without seeing the actual worksheet they mention, but it seems like maybe the Sig Braces (that go
round the arm) and the hooky ones might still be OK, while things like the KAK Blade that are more "stockish" could be in trouble.
They don't seem to mention use, only "objective design" so at least you don't have to worry about being an accidental felon if it touches your shoulder in recoil. I guess we will see....
The only difference between some of the Sig braces and the KAK Blade is the Blade doesn't have a velcro strap. I will have to skim the proposed rules.
Or they are just targeting one type to get their foot in the door so they can then roll the rest of them in.
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So according to the worksheet, you get dinged for having iron sights. You also get dinged for having an optic (you just get dinged more - enough to make it an SBR). You also get dinged for having no sights.
They also only seem to mention buffer tube attachment. My Sig Canebrake uses a picatinny attachment. I removed the Sig brace a while back and put an SB 1913 on it. Wondering where that once will fall. The only other AR pistol I have right now is a PWS with an SB brace.
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So according to the worksheet, you get dinged for having iron sights. You also get dinged for having an optic (you just get dinged more - enough to make it an SBR). You also get dinged for having no sights.
They also only seem to mention buffer tube attachment. My Sig Canebrake uses a picatinny attachment. I removed the Sig brace a while back and put an SB 1913 on it. Wondering where that once will fall. The only other AR pistol I have right now is a PWS with an SB brace.
You don't get dinged for an optic with unlimited eye relief. That's the way to go.
I think all the 1913 attaching braces fold, so you would get those 2 points. At least that's how I read it.
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If any can figure out how to get 3 points or less let me know. I don't think it can be done with any of the popular braces, optics or anything. Which was the plan all along.
bob
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You will need to have a non adjustable brace, that is on a pistol buffer tube, with a short LOP, no hand stop/hand grip, and an optic with no eye relief constraints.
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You will need to have a non adjustable brace, that is on a pistol buffer tube, with a short LOP, no hand stop/hand grip, and an optic with no eye relief constraints.
From what I heard on mrgunsandgear last night, at least on fin style braces, if the piece of velcro cloth is missing, that's 2 points. Also on split braces, if they are "too small" to fit your arm in, that's a hit. I forget how many points, but a split brace that doesn't fit me might fit someone smaller. Enforcement will be arbitrary.
It's almost like they consulted with Kafka when they made the worksheet.
Anyway, I'm guessing the TF1913 I use on the Canebrake would get me in trouble if the Canebrake doesn't fall into the Snake River.
(https://www.sb-tactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/TF1913_Left_Ghosted_Web.jpg)
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wow... This is going to cause a massive drop in gun crime!
I see upwards 300 violent felonies committed by brace wielding thugs every day!
I have always been very leery of braces. Just way too easy, as we're now seeing, for an unfriendly administration to do this.
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Stupid laws but people pushed the limits to get an almost SBR with no paper. That’s why I got a 16” barrel for my 9mm build. Tired of talking to random range lawyers which I did a lot of when I owned a AR pistol in the days when there were no braces.
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Stupid laws but people pushed the limits to get an almost SBR with no paper. That’s why I got a 16” barrel for my 9mm build. Tired of talking to random range lawyers which I did a lot of when I owned a AR pistol in the days when there were no braces.
I guess the counterpoint would be that you shouldn't need the stamp for an SBR. If anything, using their logic, you would need the stamp for the gun without a brace or stock, which makes the weapon more compact.
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Stupid laws but people pushed the limits to get an almost SBR with no paper. That’s why I got a 16” barrel for my 9mm build. Tired of talking to random range lawyers which I did a lot of when I owned a AR pistol in the days when there were no braces.
Might be a product of where you live. I have never seen or heard anyone ever mention that too me around here.
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I guess the counterpoint would be that you shouldn't need the stamp for an SBR. If anything, using their logic, you would need the stamp for the gun without a brace or stock, which makes the weapon more compact.
A comment from the ATFs site:
If braced pistols are SBRs, and braced pistols are in common use, then SBRs are in common use, thus the NFA should be found to be in violation of Heller.
Braced pistols are the definition of common. Sorry ATF.
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I guess the counterpoint would be that you shouldn't need the stamp for an SBR. If anything, using their logic, you would need the stamp for the gun without a brace or stock, which makes the weapon more compact.
The other counterpoint is that the ATF are the ones that said braces were okay use and then they said they were okay to shoulder. There might have been exceptions to that, but they opened the door and now want to close it again.
I have a couple guns I will eventually do an SBR for. In the meantime, we will see.
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I have a couple guns I will eventually do an SBR for. In the meantime, we will see.
I was looking at doing at least one SBR before this because frankly, I hate braces. I'm already in the NFA system by choice because of suppressors so they know all about me anyway. I don't want to do it with a gun to my head though, after becoming a criminal overnight.
Not that I should have to do it at all, but that's another part of the discussion.
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Where does a 9mm pistol with just a foam covered buffer tube?
I cna't decided between 9 or 45 but want to put one together soon. I have plenty of ammo for both.
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(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.boldomatic.com%2Fcontent%2Fpost%2F_IYvJg%2FI-m-more-confused-than-a-chameleon-in-a-bag-of-ski%3Fsize%3D800&f=1&nofb=1)
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Your eyes show it.
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I was looking at doing at least one SBR before this because frankly, I hate braces. I'm already in the NFA system by choice because of suppressors so they know all about me anyway. I don't want to do it with a gun to my head though, after becoming a criminal overnight.
Not that I should have to do it at all, but that's another part of the discussion.
I got a bit lost in Mrgunsngear's video. It sounded like there were Assault Weapon Ban elements to this crap also. So if you get an SBR tax stamp, do you still have to worry about points for other parts of the gun?
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I got a bit lost in Mrgunsngear's video. It sounded like there were Assault Weapon Ban elements to this crap also. So if you get an SBR tax stamp, do you still have to worry about points for other parts of the gun?
No. If you SBR it, then the points no longer matter.
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A comment from the ATFs site:
If braced pistols are SBRs, and braced pistols are in common use, then SBRs are in common use, thus the NFA should be found to be in violation of Heller.
Braced pistols are the definition of common. Sorry ATF.
I won't hold my breath, but it would be funny if this whole thing leads to a legal challenge on the restriction of SBRs.
As I recall, Miller held that SBS restrictions were OK because short shotguns did not have "a reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia, the Second Amendment does not protect the possession of such an instrument." Might be interesting to look at that again in a world where the M4 is what it is.
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(https://i.imgur.com/SOKb4aA.jpg?1)
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I heard MidwayUSA was dumping their braces for almost half price.
https://www.midwayusa.com/s?searchTerm=pistol+brace
Looks like mostly the ones that would be less compliant.
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I think the biggest problem is going to be the 12-26" OAL requirement - shorter and you're a criminal, longer and you're also a criminal. I'm seeing a 10" AR pistol with a given OAL of 26.4" - and the 10" guns are pretty common, 11" and longer as well. The 6.5 Grendels and .308 AR pistols tend to be 11-12" barrels or longer.
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I heard MidwayUSA was dumping their braces for almost half price.
https://www.midwayusa.com/s?searchTerm=pistol+brace
Looks like mostly the ones that would be less compliant.
I'm getting e-mails from just about every gun related seller I subscribe to pushing braces and braced guns
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Perhaps I got some bad information, because I was under the impression you could basically only have a naked buffer tube, fixed iron sights, and barrels less than 8". Plus no handstop or any grip of any kind.
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I commented. Might not do any good, but I'm going to do what I can.
I have to come up with a decent comment for the receiver rule change as well.
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There seems to be a lot of misinformation going around, especially this article:
https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/atf-released-new-proposed-pistol-brace-rules/#axzz6x9id6BnL
Firearms over 13 ½ inches would automatically be an SBR.
The ATF would assign a gun with a red dot two points. The ATF doesn’t see why a shooter would use a red dot pistol on a pistol.
Maybe it's a defensive posture, but I don't hear much about what would still be legal. For example, if an AR pistol has no brace, can it still be an SBR because of sights or handstops? Or would the point system not apply?
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If only someone would link the actual proposed rule so people could read it and have an informed discussion instead of relying on gun channels and blogs whose revenue requires clicks.
All your questions could be answered.
;/
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For example, if an AR pistol has no brace, can it still be an SBR because of sights or handstops? Or would the point system not apply?
Probably not, but it's the ATF, and just because the ATF or the law says something doesn't mean they hold to it.
For instance, I've seen AR a number of pistol buffer tubes with padding on them. Could they claim a padded pistol buffer tube counts as a "stabilizing brace" because you can stabilize your arm against it? If they did then Section II would come through just fine with 1 point and the Section III point system would apply.
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That is a good question. A bare buffer tube was legal before all this brace business started (with BATF approval).
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If only someone would link the actual proposed rule so people could read it and have an informed discussion instead of relying on gun channels and blogs whose revenue requires clicks.
All your questions could be answered.
;/
LOL Cause obviously the ATF made the rules very clear and non-contradictory, and always follows its own rules in a common-sense fashion. =)
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As someone with a habit of only liking things after they’re not cool anymore, I judiciously waited until about a week ago to have any interest in AR pistols. (I guess, really, they’ll get much more popular now, since we have another gun salesman in the White House.) For some reason, building an AR that fits in a backpack just recently began to appeal to me. Not sure I’d end up carrying it anywhere other than the shooting range.
Anyway, I wasn’t planning to put a brace on it. But assuming the ATF really puts those new rules in place, and if I understand them correctly, the build I have in mind will still not add up to the sinister (and probably racist) 4 points, so I can feel free to add a tame, zero-point brace. Am I just a slacker?
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I do not believe a zero point brace exists. If it does, I am unaware of it.
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Sorry. I meant 2-point brace.
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Well it goes without saying you are a slacker.
It is theoretically possible that you could make a legal braced pistol (there's an example even). I do agree with the community's belief that the point of this whole thing is to make it so confusing and sketchy that no one will even try. If the rule passes exactly as proposed I suspect we will see identical weapons get different scores in short order as people submit samples.
I can tell you none of my AR pistols will be legal as they currently are. I haven't decided what I will do with them if it goes forward. I may register a lower or two. We'll see.
IMO, getting an AR pistol into the legal category will remove most of it's usefulness as a weapon.
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I can tell you none of my AR pistols will be legal as they currently are. I haven't decided what I will do with them if it goes forward. I may register a lower or two. We'll see.
Same here.
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Palmetto State Armory is selling AR pistols with 10” barrels in .223 for $499. Wonder if they’re clearing out inventory just in case.
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https://palmettostatearmory.com/blem-psa-pa-15-10-5-5-56-nato-1-7-phosphate-9-m-lok-moe-ept-bsl-pistol2.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=daily_deals&utm_campaign=20210618&utm_term=morning&utm_content=51655110323B
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I've got one of those 50 buck Anderson lowers lying around. I might get one of these PSA pistol deals. I'd been wanting to do another PSA build anyway, but their prices during crazy time didn't seem that great. If they are having some kind of fire sale on AR pistols, I think I might bite. Come and get me, copper.
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I've got one of those 50 buck Anderson lowers lying around. I might get one of these PSA pistol deals. I'd been wanting to do another PSA build anyway, but their prices during crazy time didn't seem that great. If they are having some kind of fire sale on AR pistols, I think I might bite. Come and get me, copper Revenuer.
FTFY.
Puts them in their proper context.
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FTFY.
Puts them in their proper context.
Fair point.