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Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on October 22, 2021, 07:43:45 AM

Title: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 22, 2021, 07:43:45 AM
Apparently Alec Baldwin pulled the trigger on a "prop" gun on his movie set and killed one person and injured another.

I feel bad for the victims, and even for him, because no one wants to live with that. However, I can't help but wonder where the blame will go and what kind of "guns are bad" propaganda will come out of it. Baldwin is very anti-gun, IIRC.

The two victims were not actors, they were set personnel, so it appears this was not some "shooting a scene" accident. He must have been handling the gun in between scenes. Four rules.


https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/alec-baldwin-tears-rust-movie-set-shooting
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: cordex on October 22, 2021, 07:57:28 AM
I was under the impression that actors didn't get to handle guns between scenes.  Weird.

As far as the four rules, they violate those rules constantly on set.  They have to.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 22, 2021, 08:03:45 AM
As far as the four rules, they violate those rules constantly on set.  They have to.

I meant "four rules" for in between scenes or running through the script. If it was an actor that was killed, it might have been from a scene where the actor was supposed to be shot. For set personnel to be shot, something else might have happened. The couple of stories I have read seemed to insinuate that he was handling the gun in between scenes.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ron on October 22, 2021, 08:06:48 AM
They could have been filming a shooting scene where he was being filmed head on with the directors giving direction, standing where he would be aiming for the scene. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: cordex on October 22, 2021, 08:12:01 AM
I meant "four rules" for in between scenes or running through the script. If it was an actor that was killed, it might have been from a scene where the actor was supposed to be shot. For set personnel to be shot, something else might have happened. The couple of stories I have read seemed to insinuate that he was handling the gun in between scenes.
I don't know what happened but as Ron says it's not hard to believe a crewmember could be shot during filming if the prop fails and actually fires a bullet.  Then again, it also not hard to explain him being an idiot.

All that said, my understanding was that when blank-firing prop guns were not actively in use for filming they are taken by the weapons wrangler.  Way, way smaller scale, but I did that for a few shows at local theatres and the gun (an 8mm, blank-firing 1911) was never out of my sight and as soon as the actor left the stage I took it.  I also kept all the extra ammo on me.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 08:14:50 AM
Sounds like some real rounds got mixed in with the blanks.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: cordex on October 22, 2021, 08:18:06 AM
Sounds like some real rounds got mixed in with the blanks.
Most modern blank guns are designed such that real rounds won't chamber.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 08:21:45 AM
Most modern blank guns are designed such that real rounds won't chamber.

I remember a (forgotten weapons?) video with a company that handles prop guns and that's what I thought but something happened here out of the ordinary so I don't know.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 08:27:08 AM
As soon as I saw the thread I though of Brandon Lee

Quote
And as the AP recalls . . .

In 1993, Brandon Lee, 28, son of the late martial-arts star Bruce Lee, died after being hit by a .44-caliber slug while filming a death scene for the movie “The Crow.” The gun was supposed to have fired a blank, but an autopsy turned up a bullet lodged near his spine.
Alec Baldwin Kills One Person, Wounds Another With a Prop Gun That ‘Misfired’ While Filming a Movie
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/alec-baldwin-kills-one-person-wounds-another-with-a-prop-gun-that-misfired-while-filming-a-new-movie/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ron on October 22, 2021, 08:36:15 AM
Events like this underscore the absurdity of anti-gun actors making millions of dollars acting in shoot 'em up movies.

You would think that all live ammunition would be banned from a movie set. Like mentioned before, this is not the first time something like this has occurred.

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: HankB on October 22, 2021, 08:41:29 AM
Blanks can be deadly at contact distance (Actor Jon-Erik Hexum found that out years ago) but they usually don't spit out TOO much in the way of fragments. If one person was killed and another injured, that suggests either multiple shots or a pass through. And a pass through strongly implies live ammo.

Either whoever was in charge of the "props" dropped the ball - big time - or there's something more sinister in play. Cops need to really, really investigate this in detail.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 08:43:57 AM
Events like this underscore the absurdity of anti-gun actors making millions of dollars acting in shoot 'em up movies.

You would think that all live ammunition would be banned from a movie set. Like mentioned before, this is not the first time something like this has occurred.

Alex, unlike his brother, is extremely anti-gun and has been very vocal about it.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 22, 2021, 08:51:24 AM
Most modern blank guns are designed such that real rounds won't chamber.

Yeah, that is a curiosity to me. I don't know anything about the Hollywood movie set firearm policies, but it only seems sane to have "firearms" that absolutely cannot accept a projectile cartridge of any kind. 

Obviously, as Hank pointed out with the Hexum death, a blank can still kill, but with the state of special effects today, I, as a layman, can't see any valid reason for a real gun on a movie set. Especially when most in Hollywood hate guns, you would think there would have been a push for something like this. But then guns are cool and okay in movies, I guess.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: dogmush on October 22, 2021, 09:09:03 AM
They use real guns for the realism, and they use blanks because that is the cheapest and best way to catch a gunshot on screen.  The same reason Hollywood constantly injures stunt people by throwing them off buildings or ripping them around on wires.  It looks good.

This could be as simple as a properly loaded blank gun that had an obstruction in the barrel that was not noticed, to something stupider, hard to say at this point.  Either way, condolences to the family of the lady who died.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Brad Johnson on October 22, 2021, 09:16:41 AM
Blanks can be deadly at contact distance (Actor Jon-Erik Hexum found that out years ago) but they usually don't spit out TOO much in the way of fragments. If one person was killed and another injured, that suggests either multiple shots or a pass through. And a pass through strongly implies live ammo.

Either whoever was in charge of the "props" dropped the ball - big time - or there's something more sinister in play. Cops need to really, really investigate this in detail.

This.

Brad
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MillCreek on October 22, 2021, 09:29:31 AM
https://www.manopause.com/entertainment/we-are-filmmakers-who-work-with-firearms-this-is-what-is-important-in-on-set-safety-44879/?fbclid=IwAR1Xe7oOFUb2qCOeLkOBzTg-xv_irXeaqeBC4P0AwfC8H7Jgzb9JSq2frQs

Interesting article from movie armorers in Oz. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on October 22, 2021, 09:44:23 AM
When I read about this incident last night, the first thing that came to mind was that Baldwin was screwing around with a prop gun, causing the accident.  He has proven himself over the years to not be the brightest individual.  He has a strong sense of entitlement and is often very harsh and unkind to those around him.
In hindsight however, I suppose he should be given the benefit of the doubt in that something went wrong during the filming of a scene.
Condolences to the family and friends of the persons killed and injured.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 22, 2021, 09:46:15 AM
Most modern blank guns are designed such that real rounds won't chamber.

I saw that mentioned on another site. I had never heard or read that prior to this incident. How does that work?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: ConstitutionCowboy on October 22, 2021, 09:47:24 AM
This is preventable. Shooting at a mirror that is on a 45° angle with the camera crew and other actors/directors, etc. safely off to the side  only puts the mirror in jeopardy.  :facepalm:

Woody

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 22, 2021, 09:48:32 AM
Alex, unlike his brother, is extremely anti-gun and has been very vocal about it.

True. Another Hollywood hypocrite. Doesn't want us to have guns, but he's fine with making millions for using them on screen.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: ConstitutionCowboy on October 22, 2021, 09:51:26 AM
Another thought: Could the gun have been switched with one loaded with real cartridges somewhere during the hand-off from the prop manager to Baldwin?

Woody
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 22, 2021, 09:54:18 AM

In hindsight however, I suppose he should be given the benefit of the doubt in that something went wrong during the filming of a scene.


I don't know how much benefit of the doubt he should be given. He is not only the star of the production, he is also the producer. As producer, doesn't he have some responsibility for everything that happens on the set? Let's face it -- even accepting that he didn't intend to kill Ms. Hutchins, an innocent person (who was working for him) is dead by his hand. We are constantly taught that we own every bullet that leaves our guns. Well, Baldwin owns this one.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 22, 2021, 09:55:15 AM
Another thought: Could the gun have been switched with one loaded with real cartridges somewhere during the hand-off from the prop manager to Baldwin?


If that might have happened -- why was there any live ammunition on a movie set?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 10:03:56 AM
Guess we have to wait and see what what the incident report says but I will be surprised if it was something other than live rounds getting mixed up with blanks in a real gun. Maybe a piece of a chamber flag got jammed in the barrel* or something along those lines.
No matter what Alex will get even more anti-gun, if that's even possible, but at the same time will continue making millions playing the hero saving the day with a gun.

*Actually had that happen.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: DittoHead on October 22, 2021, 10:05:50 AM
He probably is a hypocrite and terrible person, but being anti-gun while using a gun a in movie isn't automatically hypocritical.
Acting involves pretending to do things you might not personally endorse such as murder, rape, or eating pineapple on pizza.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 10:09:18 AM
He probably is a hypocrite and terrible person, but being anti-gun while using a gun a in movie isn't automatically hypocritical.
Acting involves pretending to do things you might not personally endorse such as murder, rape, or eating pineapple on pizza.

Murders and rapists are usually the villain(s) of the movie while Alex likes to plays the hero with a gun. Different message IMHO. The villain you're suppose to hate the hero the opposite.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on October 22, 2021, 10:12:54 AM
I saw that mentioned on another site. I had never heard or read that prior to this incident. How does that work?

Much like cordex mentioned earlier with his blank firing 8mm 1911, they don't have barrels/chambers/cylinders that match ammunition dimensions.  Often times you can watch a movie and see that the dimensions of the barrel or the cylinder holes are off proportion if you have a sharp eye.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: castle key on October 22, 2021, 10:22:36 AM
September 2017, Baldwin "tweeted" about a police shooting in Huntington Beach, Ca.

Of course he knew no facts of the police shooting but never the less proffered his opinion....

"I wonder how it must feel to wrongfully kill someone..."  -Alec Baldwin
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: sumpnz on October 22, 2021, 10:30:59 AM
Given that many pistol rounds are less than half filled with powder (hence all the warnings about double charging when reloading), seems like a prop gun that only can chamber a pretty short blank round would be easy-ish to design.  Feeding might be a challenge for semi-auto.  But that would make it impossible to chamber a live round, even if a smaller caliber. 

Be interesting to see what charges get filed, and against who.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: cordex on October 22, 2021, 10:31:37 AM
I saw that mentioned on another site. I had never heard or read that prior to this incident. How does that work?
My understanding is that there are a handful of different types of guns used on set.
1. Non-firing dummy guns.  These are often cast in rubber of varying durometer or plastic then painted, and can be used as stunt rifles where someone needs to be hit with one, or carried by extras, etc.  Some are really nice hero pieces made from metal, but they cannot fire and can be handled without particular care.  If these are "fired" in the movie, it done via CGI.
2. Guns that cycle safely but do not fire.  Green-gas powered blowback airsoft type guns with no pellets are an example of this, as are some CO2 BB guns.  No projectile leaves the barrel, and no gunpowder is burned.  CGI is used for muzzle flash.
3. Dedicated blank firing prop guns.  These use cartridges for which regular ammunition will not chamber.  As mentioned, the one I had was 8mm.  These can be "front firing" which means it vents to the front out the barrel (which also necessitates additional precautions and standoff distance between the actor and what they are pointing the gun at) or "top firing" which means the vents come out the top of the gun and the barrel is completely blocked off.  You still have to be careful about the gasses that come out the top but your standoff distance can be much shorter.
4. As dogmush mentioned, some still use real firearms professionally converted to shoot only blanks.  Not sure I'd agree that they are the most convincing on film - they'll still typically use CGI to add muzzle flashes because directors prefer the drama of huge fireballs over what a blank usually produces.  Nor are they the cheapest option (certainly not per round fired), but they can be more convincing to the actors.  These can be converted a number of different ways, but if they are semi-auto they have to have a barrel restriction (often welded in) to cycle, and often have locking lugs ground down and so forth.  These can be the most dangerous option as depending on how they are converted they may still chamber live rounds, and depending on how the muzzle restriction is installed that could come flying out as a projectile.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on October 22, 2021, 11:02:03 AM
Seems one live round was in the pistol. The police are not ruling as accidental or murder yet.

It's on some New Mexico news site that I already closed.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 11:03:46 AM
Notice the MSM keep saying the gun misfired instead of discharged, accident or accidental and so on
Misfire gives the impression it's the gun's fault.
Fits a pattern.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 11:07:05 AM
Brandon Lee's family speak out after fatal prop gun shooting on set
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/22/entertainment/brandon-lee-family-speaks-out-halyna-hutchins-death-intl-scli/index.html
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on October 22, 2021, 11:18:14 AM
How would a live round make its way into a prop gun?  Wouldn't they have specific ammo boxes used to load blanks?  I would think that ammo would be checked beforehand and verified. 

Could some ammo be around from people playing around on off time? 
Or could there be a poorly made blank that expelled solid pieces? 

Supposedly Baldwin was heard asking why he was given a hot gun.  Did he do something reckless thinking the gun was unloaded?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: brimic on October 22, 2021, 11:20:36 AM
Fnckwits shouldn’t be handed guns or gun shaped objects.

I’m wondering if there’s a chance that he had one of the few privileged California CCW permits that only go to high profile liberals and he mixed up his own carry gun with a ‘prop’ gun?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: brimic on October 22, 2021, 11:24:37 AM
I’ve read that witnesses stated that Baldwin said something like “ I should shoot you two”, a moment before shooting.

Would this make it pre-meditated, considering that he said it prior to pointing a gun at a person(s) and pulled the trigger? It would certainly illustrate intent, whether the gun was loaded or not (guns are always loaded!)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: brimic on October 22, 2021, 11:27:45 AM
Given that many pistol rounds are less than half filled with powder (hence all the warnings about double charging when reloading), seems like a prop gun that only can chamber a pretty short blank round would be easy-ish to design.  Feeding might be a challenge for semi-auto.  But that would make it impossible to chamber a live round, even if a smaller caliber. 

Be interesting to see what charges get filed, and against who.

Electric air soft guns look very real real and cycle like a real gun… they often cost more than the real gun that it mimics. The production would just have to dub in sounds, which they do anyway.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 11:28:27 AM
I’ve read that witnesses stated that Baldwin said something like “ I should shoot you two”, a moment before shooting.

Would this make it pre-meditated, considering that he said it prior to pointing a gun at a person(s) and pulled the trigger? It would certainly illustrate intent, whether the gun was loaded or not (guns are always loaded!)

He's long been known to be a hot head and go off at people. If the above is true a guy named Murphy is having a good laugh.

RIP Halyna Hutchins
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on October 22, 2021, 11:31:42 AM
I don't know how much benefit of the doubt he should be given. He is not only the star of the production, he is also the producer. As producer, doesn't he have some responsibility for everything that happens on the set? Let's face it -- even accepting that he didn't intend to kill Ms. Hutchins, an innocent person (who was working for him) is dead by his hand. We are constantly taught that we own every bullet that leaves our guns. Well, Baldwin owns this one.

In the real world, our normal world, what you say is true.  However, this event occurred in the Hollywood world.  Different rules.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 11:34:11 AM
I just had a crazy thought in my mind straight out of a Columbo episode
What if he actually wanted to kill her and brought a loaded magazine with a live round(s) on top to make it look like an accident, I mean misfire?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RoadKingLarry on October 22, 2021, 11:37:35 AM
He probably is a hypocrite and terrible person, but being anti-gun while using a gun a in movie isn't automatically hypocritical.
Acting involves pretending to do things you might not personally endorse such as murder, rape, or eating pineapple on pizza.


That's just a bridge too far...
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 11:39:15 AM

That's just a bridge too far...

I like pineapple on pizza
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: sumpnz on October 22, 2021, 11:42:06 AM
I just had a crazy thought in my mind straight out of a Colombo episode
What if he actually wanted to kill her and brought a loaded magazine with a live round on top to make it look like an accident, I mean misfire?

Don’t ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Alec Baldwin is pretty stupid.  I won’t totally discount malice here, but the odds favor stupidity.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 11:44:53 AM
Don’t ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Alec Baldwin is pretty stupid.  I won’t totally discount malice here, but the odds favor stupidity.

I agree wholeheartedly why I called it crazy. Think there was a Columbo episode alone those lines though.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on October 22, 2021, 11:53:52 AM
Don’t ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Alec Baldwin is pretty stupid.  I won’t totally discount malice here, but the odds favor stupidity.

Malice and stupidity are not mutually exclusive -- in fact they compliment (complement?) each other.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ron on October 22, 2021, 11:58:14 AM
He probably is a hypocrite and terrible person, but being anti-gun while using a gun a in movie isn't automatically hypocritical.
Acting involves pretending to do things you might not personally endorse such as murder, rape, or eating pineapple on pizza.

Everybody is a hypocrite. Who lives up to their own standards and morality perfectly? 

In this case it is a matter of degrees. If you are anti-gun and gun violence don't make movies glorifying gun use and gun violence.

At the very least don't use your fame and influence to promote your political positions you're being hypocritical about. An actor like Baldwin has the option to choose different scripts. He's not a starving artist taking what he can get.



Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 11:58:50 AM
Malice and stupidity are not mutually exclusive -- in fact they compliment (complement?) each other.

Often with a very large helping of ego thrown in
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on October 22, 2021, 12:23:23 PM
Everybody is a hypocrite. Who lives up to their own standards and morality perfectly? 

In this case it is a matter of degrees. If you are anti-gun and gun violence don't make movies glorifying gun use and gun violence.

At the very least don't use your fame and influence to promote your political positions you're being hypocritical about. An actor like Baldwin has the option to choose different scripts. He's not a starving artist taking what he can get.
Everyone is not a hypocrite.  Many admit their failiure, but try live up to a higher standard anyway.  Some people deny their failure and/or argue some legalistic loophole.  IMO, that is an important difference. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 12:36:11 PM
Quote
‘I wonder how it must feel to wrongfully kill someone...'

A 2017 tweet made by Alec Baldwin has resurfaced in which he commented on a police shooting in Los Angeles.

“I wonder how it must feel to wrongfully kill someone,” Mr Baldwin wrote, with a link to an article about a Huntington Beach officer who shot and killed a suspect.

    I wonder how it must feel to wrongfully kill someone...https://t.co/WE6QsAAXGI
    — AlecBaldwin (@AlecBaldwln____) September 23, 2017
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/alec-baldwin-prop-gun-misfire-rust-live-b1943248.html

Well now you know
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 12:39:55 PM
Quote
A prop gun that Alec Baldwin fired on the set of the movie Rust, which killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounded director Joel Souza, contained a “live single round”, a film union says.
Quote
“A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halyna Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza,” the union told members.in an email obtained by Variety.

Alec Baldwin: Prop gun that killed Halyna Hutchins contained ‘live single round’, union says
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/alec-baldwin-halyna-hutchins-gun-b1943673.html
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ron on October 22, 2021, 12:45:52 PM
He was filming a western, maybe .45 Colt if they were going for authentic.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on October 22, 2021, 01:10:47 PM
Fnckwits shouldn’t be handed guns or gun shaped objects.

I’m wondering if there’s a chance that he had one of the few privileged California CCW permits that only go to high profile liberals and he mixed up his own carry gun with a ‘prop’ gun?

They are filming a western.  So unless his personal carry weapon is a single action revolver, that's unlikely.

Quote from: WLJ
I just had a crazy thought in my mind straight out of a Columbo episode
What if he actually wanted to kill her and brought a loaded magazine with a live round(s) on top to make it look like an accident, I mean misfire?

Again, it's a western.  No magazine.  Inserting cartridges into the cylinder would be a very deliberate action on what was most likely an SAA.

Quote from: brimic
I’ve read that witnesses stated that Baldwin said something like “ I should shoot you two”, a moment before shooting.

Would this make it pre-meditated, considering that he said it prior to pointing a gun at a person(s) and pulled the trigger? It would certainly illustrate intent, whether the gun was loaded or not (guns are always loaded!)

Got a link to that?  I've read several articles about this story so far and not one has had any witness statements in it.

Hollywood sucks, but I really think this one needs to be chalked up to dumbsh!t f&ckwittery, or even negligence by the propmaster and weapons handler, or even possibly just awful luck.  And it's even possible Baldwin was actually shooting a scene and directed to do exactly as he did by the Director. 

If he was horsing around... then manslaughter on his part and/or negligent homicide on the part of the propmaster.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on October 22, 2021, 01:22:42 PM
You can easily see the bullet from the front in a revolver until the hammer is cocked.  FWIW.

Criminal negligence on somebody's part.  Probably not murder, but it could be.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 01:27:51 PM
Again, it's a western.  No magazine.  Inserting cartridges into the cylinder would be a very deliberate action on what was most likely an SAA.


1) I said it was a crazy idea like something out of a TV show and I think that idea was used for one. In other words not to taken seriously. But crazier things have happened.  [popcorn]
2) Didn't know it was a western at the time
3) Are we sure the firearm was one of the movie props yet and/or what type? I haven't seen anything saying what model/make/type. The media may be assuming it was a prop

More than likely what we have here was a tragic but avoidable accident. Maybe time will tell.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on October 22, 2021, 01:33:47 PM
An aside, am I the only one having uncontrollable laughter and eye rolling over the notion of casting Alec Baldwin as the grim stoney-eyed greybeard gunslinger?

Eastwood is now 20+ years too old for it, but there's an enormous list of talent I would put in that role before Alec Baldwin.  Russel Crowe, Mel Gibson, Josh Brolin, Harrison Ford (probably too old now), Tom Selleck, Stallone, Tommy Lee Jones, Jeff Bridges, Ed Harris, Kurt Russell, Liam Neeson, Kevin Costner, Bruce Willis, Gary Sinise, Kiefer Sutherland... all make much better western appearance and appeal than Alec Baldwin.  My top 3 from that list would be Ed Harris first and foremost for such a role, then TLJ and Neeson.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 22, 2021, 01:45:03 PM
He probably is a hypocrite and terrible person, but being anti-gun while using a gun a in movie isn't automatically hypocritical.
Acting involves pretending to do things you might not personally endorse such as murder, rape, or eating pineapple on pizza.

Baldwin was not pretending to have a deadly weapon.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 22, 2021, 02:13:58 PM
Much like cordex mentioned earlier with his blank firing 8mm 1911, they don't have barrels/chambers/cylinders that match ammunition dimensions.  Often times you can watch a movie and see that the dimensions of the barrel or the cylinder holes are off proportion if you have a sharp eye.

I don't think that's true for cowboy revolvers. For those, they use 5-in-1 blanks: https://www.westernstageprops.com/5-in-1-Brass-Blank-Ammunition-p/sa13b.htm
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on October 22, 2021, 02:21:06 PM
He was filming a western, maybe .45 Colt if they were going for authentic.
There were all sorts of calibers used in the West.  I imagine cap & ball and cartridge conversions were most common depending on what time you look at things.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on October 22, 2021, 02:26:46 PM
...Either whoever was in charge of the "props" dropped the ball - big time - or there's something more sinister in play. Cops need to really, really investigate this in detail.

I'm glad someone else said that first.  I would like to find out where the box of remaining cartridges is, if it wasn't just some junk in the barrel.

And if there was junk in the barrel, where did it come
from?

Anyone know the range involved?

Terry "I suspect no-one and I suspect everyone," 230RN

REF (General info on commercial blanks):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-in-1_blank_cartridge

(The use of the term ".410 gauge" therein is a common mistake, even by a lot of gun owners.)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: BobR on October 22, 2021, 02:36:06 PM
I am willing to start a social media rumor that the person killed was pregnant with Baldwin's child and he could not afford to have his (fiery) Spanish wife find out about it because it would cost him everything so he was carrying around a live round for the prop gun just waiting for his chance to "accidentally" shoot her. I think I saw something like this on Rizzoli and Isles TV show a long time ago. ;)

bob
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: ConstitutionCowboy on October 22, 2021, 02:43:35 PM
What do the blanks they use look like? Do they look anything like a wad cutter?

Woody
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Angel Eyes on October 22, 2021, 02:48:54 PM
What do the blanks they use look like? Do they look anything like a wad cutter?

Woody

There is a picture of 5-in-1 blanks at the link Hawkmoon posted.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on October 22, 2021, 03:51:13 PM
Baldwin is quoted as saying that in all his years in the business, he has never been handed a "hot gun".  It seems he is already beginning to spin the event and deflect blame.
If I remember correctly, he was shooting blanks from a 1911 in "The Hunt for Red October".  I could be wrong but those scenes didn't look like CGI shooting to me.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Brad Johnson on October 22, 2021, 03:58:59 PM
There's also been a shift to Airsoft CO2 guns. With a little paint and weathering they will pass for the real thing even in 4K. They also have a realistic slide/bolt action. All that's need are a few CHI muzzle flashes and some sound editing to complete the illusion.

Brad
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 04:22:30 PM

If I remember correctly, he was shooting blanks from a 1911 in "The Hunt for Red October".  I could be wrong but those scenes didn't look like CGI shooting to me.

Movie came out in 1990, a bit early for that kind of CGI. At least the kind that wouldn't be obviously fake
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 05:05:00 PM
This don't look good. Whether or not it had anything to do with the incident the optics don't look good.

Quote
    NEW: Hours before actor Alec Baldwin fatally shot a cinematographer on the New Mexico set of “Rust” with a prop gun, a half-dozen camera crew workers walked off the set to protest working conditions.https://t.co/47h0WFvxjZ

    — Los Angeles Times (@latimes) October 22, 2021
Quote
    Halyna Hutchins, had been advocating for safer conditions for her team, said one crew member who was on the set. https://t.co/47h0WFvxjZ pic.twitter.com/rJF84nNE8g

    — Los Angeles Times (@latimes) October 22, 2021
Quote
    “Corners were being cut—& they brought in nonunion people so they could continue shooting,” one person said. There were 2 misfires on the prop gun & 1 the previous week, they said, & “there was a serious lack of safety meetings on this set.” @MegJamesLAT: https://t.co/5krzF2dhDK

    — Sam Schulz (@schulzsam) October 22, 2021

Wondering what they mean by misfires

And this to consider. According to this when they say live round it doesn't mean what we think of as a live round.

Quote
And there’s an important clarification as earlier reporting suggested there was a “live” round in the firearm but this doesn’t mean that there was an actual cartridge with a bullet loaded as non-film people would think of it:

    Important update on Baldwin:

    "A source close to The Times said the union does not know what projectile was in the gun and clarified that 'live' is an industry term that refers to a gun being loaded with some material such as a blank ready for filming."https://t.co/auWdr49amb

    — Greg Pollowitz (@GPollowitz) October 22, 2021

‘Serious lack of safety meetings’: The LA Times has a MAJOR update on the fatal shooting involving Alec Baldwin in New Mexico
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/10/22/serious-lack-of-safety-meetings-the-la-times-has-a-major-update-on-the-fatal-shooting-involving-alec-baldwin-in-new-mexico/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ron on October 22, 2021, 05:28:43 PM
Yikes  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on October 22, 2021, 05:32:12 PM
I like most westerns. I have seen many that show loading a pistol with the proper round flat nose cartridges. I had always thought those had a spent primer and no powder in them. Maybe I was wrong.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on October 22, 2021, 05:42:00 PM
Baldwin is quoted as saying that in all his years in the business, he has never been handed a "hot gun".  It seems he is already beginning to spin the event and deflect blame.
If I remember correctly, he was shooting blanks from a 1911 in "The Hunt for Red October".  I could be wrong but those scenes didn't look like CGI shooting to me.

That sounds like he was engaging in asshattery during scene setup and was handed the weapon by the propmaster, and decided it was time for some pew-pew joking.  He wouldn't be saying something like that if it happened during a take; it would have been the director's own fault at that point, or the propmaster's.  Though I'd still stand on the fact the movie industry would do much better if the actors treated the prop weapons with the seriousness they deserved, and worked hand-in-hand with the propmasters to ensure to the best of everyone's ability that no live rounds are ever introduced and no obstructions, and clarity for all parties is obtained regarding how a weapon is used in a scene as safely as possible.

I hate this type of abdication of all blame where "just because I didn't want for it to work like a real gun, means it isn't my fault if it ends up working like a real gun."  From either a deontological perspective or a teleological perspective, Baldwin did something very very bad.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: just Warren on October 22, 2021, 05:59:57 PM
Is it possible it was a KB and the two victims caught shrapnel?

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 06:06:00 PM
Is it possible it was a KB and the two victims caught shrapnel?

Came across this

Quote
ALEC BALDWIN ON-SET TRAGEDY: WHAT COULD HAVE GONE WRONG?
.
.
.
.
.

Blast from the blank struck something else on set

One possibility, though it is not likely, is that the blank hit something else, damaged it, and caused that prop or piece of equipment to send pieces flying towards the director and Hutchins.

Rhys Muldoon who has used guns on set many times and says even blanks are dangerous, speculated at that possibility, telling the BBC: 'The first thought I had is this is a close up of a gun being fired by the actor, very close to the frame of the camera, that has misfired, hit the DoP, and then something has either come off the French Flag or the black box like a part of the camera and hit the director as well.'

But movie experts say even in those cases, there should be more safeguards in place.

'If you are in the line of fire... You would have a face mask, you would have goggles, you would stand behind a Perspex screen, and you would minimize the number of people by the camera.

'What I don't understand in this instance is how two people have been injured, one tragically killed, in the same event,' Steven Hall, who has worked on films such as Fury and The Imitation Game, told BBC.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-10118665/Rust-movie-set-starring-Alec-Baldwin-LOCKED-New-Mexico.html
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on October 22, 2021, 06:18:02 PM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-10118665/Rust-movie-set-starring-Alec-Baldwin-LOCKED-New-Mexico.html

When an actor plays a character for almost 15 years I tend to associate the character with the actor... even though I shouldn't.  But this article has some comments by Jensen Ackles (Dean from Supernatural) about his experience, evidently on the same set with the same propmaster.

I would expect Ackles to voice familiarity with Beretta/Taurus 92's, 1911's, shotguns, and SAA's at a minimum, given the 14? seasons of that CW show.  But he evidently chose to claim no significant firearms experience when talking to the propmaster and seemed nonplussed with his safety briefing from her when given a weapon.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on October 22, 2021, 07:08:51 PM
'Rust' crew walked off set to protest working conditions hours before cinematographer death: Reports
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/rust-crew-walked-off-set-to-protest-working-conditions-hours-before-cinematographer-death-reports/ar-AAPQuJm

Quote
The outlets report that, hours before the fatal incident, members of the "Rust" camera crew packed up their gear and walked off the job in protest and, per the LA Times, were replaced with nonunion crew members soon after. The outlets also noted at least two previous misfires on a prop gun on set days before.

I heard another source just say they hired locals.  This article says non-union.  No indication that those people handled the gun props that I see.

(edit:  I guess this was in the Twitchy link above that WLJ posted)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on October 22, 2021, 07:12:22 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/prop-gun-alec-baldwin-use-fire-fatal-shot-misfired-rcna3635
This link says the particular prop gun misfired before but doesn't really explain what that means so it is sort of meaningless.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on October 22, 2021, 07:16:27 PM
Misfire is going to be the term since he is antigun.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 07:21:11 PM
The memes have started

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/229/930/9e2 (https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/229/930/9e2)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: dogmush on October 22, 2021, 07:31:19 PM
As much as we all hate Mr. Baldwin and his politics, when making jokes it is worth remembering that someone's wife, and two children's mother was killed in this incident. I'm sure those children would rather have their mother then any number of solid memes.

Don't  be an ahole to make cheap internet points. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Bogie on October 22, 2021, 07:38:36 PM
Did anyone mention the propane or gas-op stuff? Usually used for full auto...
 
I wonder if this would have happened if an outfit like Stembridge had been involved. Odds are they low-budgeted, and asked if anyone knew anyone where to find the right kind of <real> guns...
 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 07:51:26 PM
As much as we all hate Mr. Baldwin and his politics, when making jokes it is worth remembering that someone's wife, and two children's mother was killed in this incident. I'm sure those children would rather have their mother then any number of solid memes.

Don't  be an ahole to make cheap internet points.

Precisely why I posted the url only and not the image itself. To leave it to the individual whether or not they wanted to see it. I will remove the url if requested.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 08:00:39 PM
Ironically I was just viewing a video on the German attitude toward war jokes during the war.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 22, 2021, 08:10:42 PM
If I remember correctly, he was shooting blanks from a 1911 in "The Hunt for Red October".  I could be wrong but those scenes didn't look like CGI shooting to me.

But they were.  And the scene exhibited poor gun handling, too.

First, Ryan crawled along that suspended cable tray with his finger on the trigger.

When he shot the bomber, he fired five shots. Five shots from an M1911 in an enclosed space like that would have left him deaf (at least temporarily) and literally in pain. Don't ask me how I know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kaBIMuW74Q
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 22, 2021, 08:18:50 PM
According to this Baldwin was handed the gun by the assistant director and told it was safe to use

Court records released on Friday raise new questions regarding the fatal shooting involving Alec Baldwin
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/10/22/court-records-released-on-friday-raise-new-questions-regarding-the-fatal-shooting-involving-alec-baldwin/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 22, 2021, 08:30:45 PM
According to this Baldwin was handed the gun by the assistant director and told it was safe to use

Court records released on Friday raise new questions regarding the fatal shooting involving Alec Baldwin
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/10/22/court-records-released-on-friday-raise-new-questions-regarding-the-fatal-shooting-involving-alec-baldwin/

More proof evidence that there were serious problems on that set. From an earlier link:

Quote
Regardless of what may have happened, members of the union IATSE say that multiple gun safety protocols were breached.

'We have a hard and fast rule that no live ammunition ever goes into a prop truck or set at any time. We just don't do it. If you see bullets on set they are complete dummy rounds and are in no way functional.

'This goes back to Brandon Lee. There's protocol.

'Many, many people had to fail at the protocols we set on place for this to happen,' Zachary Knight, a member of the IATSE Local 44 union, told DailyMail.com on Friday.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: bedlamite on October 22, 2021, 08:31:21 PM
Obviously, it's Trump's fault.  ;/

(https://i.redd.it/9a8w0rlo43v71.jpg)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Angel Eyes on October 22, 2021, 09:07:33 PM
Obviously, it's Trump's fault.  ;/

https://i.redd.it/9a8w0rlo43v71.jpg

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCUEV-JWYAkqirv?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: ConstitutionCowboy on October 22, 2021, 09:46:59 PM
There is a picture of 5-in-1 blanks at the link Hawkmoon posted.

At a glance they don't look much different from a RN cartridge. I imagine a real cartridge could have easily been misidentified as a blank.

Woody
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 22, 2021, 10:09:03 PM
Misfire is going to be the term since he is antigun.

Yeah.

And that's unfortunate, because it's going to send the wrong message. In fact, the firearm apparently functioned perfectly. Baldwin pulled the trigger, the gun fired, and the bullet went where it was aimed. No "mis"fire anywhere. But multiple examples of poor gun handling, lack of observance of safety protocols, and outright negligence.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on October 22, 2021, 10:43:22 PM
Even though I had been already been taught  before I remember gun safety in elementary school. If he had know about safety this would have never happened.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 23, 2021, 12:24:54 AM
I am very disappointed to see that on The Firing Line -- a pro-gun, pro-2A forum -- there are apologists who already want to cut Baldwin some slack.

Quote
Let's not beat up on Alec too much just because he has been anti-gun in the past. There is a lot of blame to go around.

While I am certain there is blame to spread around, there's a reason why we are taught that when someone hands us a firearm, WE clear it -- even if we just watched the other guy clear it. In the final analysis, a woman is dead and her child has lost its mother because Alec Baldwin cocked the gun, pointed the gun at her, and pulled the trigger.

How much slack am I supposed to cut him?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 23, 2021, 12:29:14 AM
As much as we all hate Mr. Baldwin and his politics...

Hate his politics, but he was amazing in 30 Rock. Extremely funny and talented guy, when he's not being a raging jerk in his personal and political life.

sumdood on the internet observed that Baldwin has now killed more innocent people than Kyle Rittenhouse.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: K Frame on October 23, 2021, 08:21:09 AM
I am very disappointed to see that on The Firing Line -- a pro-gun, pro-2A forum -- there are apologists who already want to cut Baldwin some slack.

While I am certain there is blame to spread around, there's a reason why we are taught that when someone hands us a firearm, WE clear it -- even if we just watched the other guy clear it. In the final analysis, a woman is dead and her child has lost its mother because Alec Baldwin cocked the gun, pointed the gun at her, and pulled the trigger.

How much slack am I supposed to cut him?


What, you mean that even on directed forums there are people who aren't lock step with the program?

That they have DIFFERENT opinions?

Oh the horror!
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 23, 2021, 09:02:15 AM

What, you mean that even on directed forums there are people who aren't lock step with the program?

That they have DIFFERENT opinions?

Oh the horror!

Yes, I do consider the fact that in a group of people who purport to be knowledgeable about firearms there are some who don't think deliberately cocking a gun, pointing it at another person, and pulling the trigger is unsafe to be rather horrible.

Some things are legitimately matters of opinion: what color you prefer, whether or not you like pineapple on pizza, etc. Other things are not legitimately matters of opinion -- even though some people hold divergent opinions about them. Pointing guns at people and pulling the trigger "IMHO" falls in the latter category.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: cordex on October 23, 2021, 09:14:26 AM
One reason people can have different opinions about this situation is that there may actually have been a valid movie reason he pointed and fired a gun directly at the people he shot. I guarantee it was not the actor’s responsibility to check that the gun was properly prepared for that scene.  Expecting actors to be competent to check every stunt and prop is unreasonable.

The difference is that movies are not real life, and in movies actors are sometimes expected to do things that would be catastrophically stupid in real life. They are, however, assured by experts that it will be fine and they needn’t worry.  In one play I was gun wrangler on, at the end of the scene the actor notices the audience has witnessed his murders and points the gun at them and fires directly toward them. This was okay because he was given a top-firing blank gun and the stand-off was appropriate. It was safe because I had selected the correct gun and walked the actor through the proper way to handle the gun in the scene, and had he shot someone somehow it would have been my fault that it happened, not his.

Totally possible he was doing the wrong thing too, however.  We don’t know yet.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ron on October 23, 2021, 09:25:09 AM
What do you call a “prop gun” that fires real cartridges?

It's called a GUN

Time to stop using word magic to make it sound less serious.

It's a real gun used as a prop.

Everyone calling it a "prop gun" obscures the reality that it was a functioning firearm.

The use of "prop gun" to the average person makes it sound like a starter pistol or something less serious than the reality.

Even gunnies are falling into the trap.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: ConstitutionCowboy on October 23, 2021, 09:51:24 AM
Bottom line? The gun was in AB's hands. He was the one responsible for what was in it. He picked it up(or received it from someone else), and didn't 'clear' it. No amount of huffing and puffing will change that.

Woody
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on October 23, 2021, 10:25:40 AM
It seems his stunt double was handed a gun with two live rounds in it earlier in the week.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: HankB on October 23, 2021, 10:42:10 AM
Allowing LIVE ROUNDS on the set of a movie which includes actors with guns makes about as much sense as allowing cigarettes and matches in a fireworks factory.

If its confirmed that live rounds found their way into a real gun here, SOMEONE needs to go to jail for this.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: DittoHead on October 23, 2021, 10:44:26 AM
He picked it up(or received it from someone else), and didn't 'clear' it.
when someone hands us a firearm, WE clear it -- even if we just watched the other guy clear it.

Do you think that's how it works on movie sets? I really doubt that even the actors who are knowledgeable about guns do that, that's why they hire experts. If you're insistent that actors strictly follow all gun safety rules, you should probably never watch an old western or John Wick movie or really any movie with guns.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 23, 2021, 10:48:17 AM
Regarding guns on set via the NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/22/business/prop-guns-baldwin-shooting.html

I was able to read this on my phone, but hit a paywall on the desktop. YMMV.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 23, 2021, 10:49:25 AM
They keep using the term misfire both for this and the earlier 3 "misfires". If the gun fired it's didn't misfire it fired from my understanding of the term misfire.

But

Quote
misfire
mĭs-fīr′
intransitive verb

1. To fail to ignite when expected. Used of an internal-combustion engine.
2. To fail to discharge. Used of a firearm.
3. To fail to achieve an anticipated result.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=misfire+definition&t=ffsb&ia=definition

I suppose #3 could cover what happened if you look at it a certain way  :O
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MillCreek on October 23, 2021, 10:51:46 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/22/entertainment/brandon-lee-family-speaks-out-halyna-hutchins-death-intl-scli/index.html

I see that in the Brandon Lee incident, a civil suit was settled but no criminal charges were filed.  I wonder if we will see criminal charges there.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ron on October 23, 2021, 11:01:57 AM
Post up and let us know if you were an extra in a movie and were given a gun and told to fire it towards people when action is called, you would trust the prop person and blast away.

I would drop the mag or open the cylinder and check out what was going on with it first, or I would request the prop person demonstrate the gun was safe before I even took it from them.

This was negligent homicide and somebody should be held legally accountable. Fat chance.

 

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 23, 2021, 11:09:43 AM
Fat chance.

Regarding that, I think there is a good possibility that the weapons guy or other crew might be held liable for negligence if there is evidence of such.

As far as Baldwin, yeah, fat chance. It doesn't matter which side of this you're on. So far, it appears he did what all actors do - took the gun from the prop dept in a manner that can be shown historically to be "standard". So even if he broke the four rules, everyone before him was doing so too, for a very long time. IANAL, but I'm guessing a good attorney will make good use of that fact in any defense.

Again, this is IMO, not based on right or wrong, but on the legal system.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on October 23, 2021, 11:18:19 AM
Well his brother Jane has already spoke up and says he checks any weapon handed to him in front of the propmaster.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 23, 2021, 11:19:39 AM
Well his brother Jane has already spoke up and says he checks any weapon handed to him in front of the propmaster.

Just in case you weren't being sarcastic, they are not related.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 23, 2021, 11:25:05 AM
Just in case you weren't being sarcastic, they are not related.

Well I'll be.... This whole time I thought they were brothers

From IMDB

Quote
Adam is distantly related to the Baldwin brothers Alec Baldwin, Daniel Baldwin, William Baldwin and Stephen Baldwin, who are from Long Island, New York (Adam is from the Chicago area). They share common Baldwin ancestry going back to the 1600s in England.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RoadKingLarry on October 23, 2021, 11:37:08 AM
Allowing LIVE ROUNDS on the set of a movie which includes actors with guns makes about as much sense as allowing cigarettes and matches in a fireworks factory.

If its confirmed that live rounds found their way into a real gun here, SOMEONE needs to go to jail for this.

That in my opinion is basis for a negligent homicide charge on as many people as can be identified as being involved.

Quote
It seems his stunt double was handed a gun with two live rounds in it earlier in the week.

Almost starts to sound like someone was deliberately trying to get someone hurt or killed.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on October 23, 2021, 11:49:58 AM
From reading the articles posted about this incident, "live" rounds has a different meaning in the movie industry.  In this case it means a blank round that will go bang when the gun's trigger is pulled.  There is no projectile other than some sort of wadding in these rounds.
This is opposed to a dummy round that looks real but contains no powder or functional primer and cannot fire.
This was mentioned in several of the articles on this unfortunate incident.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: ConstitutionCowboy on October 23, 2021, 12:07:24 PM
Do you think that's how it works on movie sets? I really doubt that even the actors who are knowledgeable about guns do that, that's why they hire experts. If you're insistent that actors strictly follow all gun safety rules, you should probably never watch an old western or John Wick movie or really any movie with guns.

It's not about whatever movies. It is about safe and prudent handling of firearms.

Woody
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ron on October 23, 2021, 12:07:46 PM
I've read that the projectile passed through her and into the director.

Sounds like live actual ammo if that's the case.

Or a blank with a 250gr wad of lead ...
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 23, 2021, 12:11:27 PM
They keep using the term misfire both for this and the earlier 3 "misfires". If the gun fired it's didn't misfire it fired from my understanding of the term misfire.

But
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=misfire+definition&t=ffsb&ia=definition

I suppose #3 could cover what happened if you look at it a certain way  :O

No, with respect to firearms that equates to number 2: the expected result of discharging a firearm is a bullet leaving the muzzle at fairly high velocity. If you push it, even a squib might not qualify as a misfire, since the cartridge did fire.

In the case of Baldwin, it clearly was not a misfire. The gun fired when the trigger was pulled -- exactly as it was designed to do.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 23, 2021, 12:16:09 PM
I think virtually all of the blame goes to the "armorer". It was her job to ensure the gun was safe and apparently she failed in that task. I believe the co-director was suppose to check as well before handing to the actor so throw him in as well.
But
If the reports of 3 previous issues with guns are true then who hired her and why wasn't she let go after not 1, not 2, but 3 previous "misfires"? Then blame goes to the director and producer (Baldwin) as well IMHO. A little voice in me is saying she was an "equity" hire and it would have caused a stink firing her.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 23, 2021, 12:17:01 PM
I've read that the projectile passed through her and into the director.

Sounds like live actual ammo if that's the case.

Or a blank with a 250gr wad of lead ...

If not a bullet, then I guess my question is, what kinds of materials are used to top off move blanks? Also, how much powder goes into them? The NYT article alluded to creating "realism" through actual recoil as a reason for using whatever gun that goes bang for real. It doesn't seem like you would need a lot of powder for that. Even my lightest .45acp loads have enough recoil that you can see it if you film someone shooting them.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 23, 2021, 12:17:15 PM
No, with respect to firearms that equates to number 2: the expected result of discharging a firearm is a bullet leaving the muzzle at fairly high velocity. If you push it, even a squib might not qualify as a misfire, since the cartridge did fire.

In the case of Baldwin, it clearly was not a misfire. The gun fired when the trigger was pulled -- exactly as it was designed to do.

That was my point. They're misusing the term misfire
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 23, 2021, 12:48:58 PM
From reading the articles posted about this incident, "live" rounds has a different meaning in the movie industry.  In this case it means a blank round that will go bang when the gun's trigger is pulled.  There is no projectile other than some sort of wadding in these rounds.
This is opposed to a dummy round that looks real but contains no powder or functional primer and cannot fire.
This was mentioned in several of the articles on this unfortunate incident.

I have read as many articles on this as I can find, and I haven't seen that mentioned even once.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 23, 2021, 12:52:50 PM
If not a bullet, then I guess my question is, what kinds of materials are used to top off move blanks? Also, how much powder goes into them? The NYT article alluded to creating "realism" through actual recoil as a reason for using whatever gun that goes bang for real. It doesn't seem like you would need a lot of powder for that. Even my lightest .45acp loads have enough recoil that you can see it if you film someone shooting them.

If they were using 5-in-1 blanks, they are loaded either with a very fast smokeless powder, or with black powder. The cases are typically almost filled with powder. 5-in-1 blanks are typically crimped closed, but there may be a wax plug or a felt wad on top of the powder to prevent leakage through the crimp.

There is nothing in a 5-in-1 blank that would be capable of shooting completely through one person and then penetrating the clavicle of a person standing behind her.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on October 23, 2021, 02:21:37 PM
What do you call a “prop gun” that fires real cartridges?

It's called a GUN.

Time to stop using word magic to make it sound less serious.

It's a real gun used as a prop.

Everyone calling it a "prop gun" obscures the reality that it was a functioning firearm.

The use of "prop gun" to the average person makes it sound like a starter pistol or something less serious than the reality.

Even gunnies are falling into the trap.


             
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: griz on October 23, 2021, 02:37:28 PM
Any random actor can't be expected to be knowledgeable enough to assure a gun is incapable of causing injury.  It's just not why they hire them, even if us gun people think the four rules should be written into the federal code.  So the responsibility must fall to the person/s who run the show.  I don't know if this is person is the director, producer, or some other title, but it's the same person who would be held responsible if, for instance, they hired an unlicensed cousin to fly a helicopter that crashed into the set.  If they hired a competent armorer, had a reasonable plan to eliminate mistakes, but the armorer made a one time mistake and mixed up a live round in with the blanks, the negligence is on him/her.  But it sounds as if they went low budget and hired somebody who was grossly lacking in some way.  Combine that with the previous negligent discharges (I too don't agree with the term misfire) and it seems criminal that they continued using that person.

All that said, my guess is they will consider it an embarrassing mistake of the people making the movie and call it a workplace accident.  No charges, but they will have to pay millions in the inevitable lawsuits.

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: just Warren on October 23, 2021, 02:52:49 PM
Sure they'll payout, those kids will be taken care of and the legal process will do what it do but the question is: Will the lesson carry forward? Will enough people gain enough wisdom from this incident to make sure it doesn't happen again?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: BobR on October 23, 2021, 03:01:57 PM
Sure they'll payout, those kids will be taken care of and the legal process will do what it do but the question is: Will the lesson carry forward? Will enough people gain enough wisdom from this incident to make sure it doesn't happen again?

Probably not. I am sure they thought they had all the protocols in place to prevent it after Brandon Lee. Give it time, unless they pull all guns capable of firing blanks from production sets and go with plastic/rubber guns it will happen again. :(

bob
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RoadKingLarry on October 23, 2021, 03:12:20 PM
I despise Alec Baldwin. I would gleefully crap on his grave.
That being said I don't put a lot of fault for the actual act on his head. However, If he had anything to do with hiring and then retaining the obviously incompetent armorer then he gets a fair share of the blame.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on October 23, 2021, 04:04:50 PM
One thing that I noticed was how quickly the union that had pulled its people off the production earlier started insinuating that the accident would not have happened if union labor had still been on the job.  Their claim was that union labor is more competent and works safely. The smoke had hardly had time to clear before they released a statement to that effect.
Food for thought.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 23, 2021, 04:31:37 PM
Speculation now that one of the disgruntled workers may have tampered with the gun and/or ammo. If true that would go a long way in explaining how live rounds got anywhere near the set. Just speculation as far as I know at this point. Still wouldn't get the armorer and/or others in the inspection chain completely off the hook though.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Brad Johnson on October 23, 2021, 04:52:20 PM
I despise Alec Baldwin. I would gleefully crap on his grave.
That being said I don't put a lot of fault for the actual act on his head. However, If he had anything to do with hiring and then retaining the obviously incompetent armorer then he gets a fair share of the blame.

This.

Brad
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on October 23, 2021, 04:56:21 PM
I despise Alec Baldwin. I would gleefully crap on his grave.
That being said I don't put a lot of fault for the actual act on his head. However, If he had anything to do with hiring and then retaining the obviously incompetent armorer then he gets a fair share of the blame.

As an actor, he doesn't deserve a lot of the blame (unless he personally tampered with the gun or ammo, which is unlikely.)  As a producer, it is very much his fault.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Boomhauer on October 23, 2021, 05:28:57 PM
Let’s say I have no experience

I walk into a gun store and pick up a rifle off the surplus rack and point it at another customer. Bad, right?

Even worse I pull the trigger.

An incompetent gunstore employee left a live round in the chamber from when it was traded in and that customer dies. My fault for grossly violating the safety rules. My fault for pulling the trigger.

Why is it different for Alec Baldwin because it happened on a movie set? It doesn’t matter who is handling it a real live gun shouldn’t be pointed at somebody. If an actor is going to work with live weapons then they need to be briefed, educated, and trained in the safety rules. Not horse playing around with a real gun




Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 23, 2021, 05:30:03 PM
I have to disagree with those of you who don't think Baldwin bears much (or any) responsibility. He's a veteran  actor. He has handled guns in other movies. The protocol in movies is that if the script calls for a shooter to shoot someone, the shooter aims just to one side of the victoim, so that even if the wad from the blank travels that far the victim won't (in theory) get injured.

BUT ... this wasn't during filming. So why was he handling a gun? Why was his finger on the trigger? Why did he pull the trigger?

And if the gun was a cowboy six shooter, it's a single action. That means he had to intentionally pull back the hammer to cock it, and then pull the trigger -- while pointing it at his director of photography.

Sorry -- the armorer certainly screwed up, but IMHO that doesn't absolve Baldwin of all responsibility. Firearms safety rules overlap specifically so that if one rule is broken, the other should still prevent a tragedy. In order for this to have happened, multiple rules had to have been broken by multiple people.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on October 23, 2021, 05:35:01 PM
AFAIK, we don't know if it was during filming or not.  I'm not following the story that closely so I may have missed something.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: DittoHead on October 23, 2021, 05:42:42 PM
As to when it happened:
Quote from: https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set
The tragedy occurred Thursday afternoon during filming of a gunfight that began in a church that is part of the old Western town at the ranch. Baldwin’s character was supposed to back out of the church, according to production notes.

The actor was preparing to film a scene in which he pulls a gun out of a holster, according to a source close to the production. Crew members had already shouted “cold gun” on the set. The filmmaking team was lining up its camera angles and had yet to retreat to the video village, an on-set area where the crew gathers to watch filming from a distance via a monitor.

Instead, the B-camera operator was on a dolly with a monitor, checking out the potential shots. Hutchins was also looking at the monitor from over the operator’s shoulder, as was the movie’s director, Joel Souza, who was crouching just behind her.

Baldwin removed the gun from its holster once without incident, but the second time he did so, ammunition flew toward the trio around the monitor.

Why is it different for Alec Baldwin because it happened on a movie set?
Because actors and producers have realized they don't know enough to handle guns safely and have hired experts to do so for them. There are people who's entire job is to make sure the guns are safe, they take on that responsibility so the actors don't have to. Cordex described it pretty well earlier in the thread.

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 23, 2021, 05:46:35 PM
Let’s say I have no experience

I walk into a gun store and pick up a rifle off the surplus rack and point it at another customer. Bad, right?

Even worse I pull the trigger.

An incompetent gunstore employee left a live round in the chamber from when it was traded in and that customer dies. My fault for grossly violating the safety rules. My fault for pulling the trigger.


Ordered a used Saiga from a certain well know internet gun store and had it shipped to my LGS. When I went in to pick it up the shop owner hadn't taken it out of the box yet and hands the box to me. So I open the box, pull out the rifle which by the way had the magazine inserted and I instinctively out of habit pull back the bolt handle to check the chamber and out pops a round out of the chamber. Shop owner stops what he was doing and asks did that come out of that gun? I answer yes and also it appears the mag is fully loaded as well. In other words they shipped a chambered rifle with a fully loaded magazine. The most crazy part? The rifle was more than likely sitting in their used gun rack on the showroom floor like that just waiting for someone to pick it up and pull the trigger.  :facepalm: I know that store, I've been in it several times, used rifles sit out in floor racks for customers to pick up and examine
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: just Warren on October 23, 2021, 06:01:19 PM
Holy crap.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on October 23, 2021, 07:12:08 PM
Quote
Because actors and producers have realized they don't know enough to handle guns safely and have hired experts to do so for them. There are people who's entire job is to make sure the guns are safe, they take on that responsibility so the actors don't have to. Cordex described it pretty well earlier in the thread.

I think it's time for this to end.

I also don't think it ever existed in a more grossly incompetent and negligent environment than today when it comes to firearms proficiency.

Does anyone think Gary Cooper, John Wayne, or Clint Eastwood were as ignorant on firearms knowledge as someone like Sean Penn or Alec Baldwin?  Those 3 actors were prolific in films with guns, fired hundreds or even thousands of shots on camera, and I'm not aware of firearms related injury or homicide on one of those sets.  I'm sure there was plenty of actual plinking with live rounds that even happened between takes or to get into character or build skill and familiarity with the set weaponry.

Look at Keanu Reeves, particularly in regards to the John Wick franchise, and his extensive training he undergoes with 3-gun coaches and such while getting ready to film.  I would be shocked if Mr. Reeves didn't personally inspect his weapons and ammunition carefully when handed to him, to confirm his prop is indeed in a condition he's personally prepared to accept the consequences of his trigger presses.

Actors who are ignorant of firearms safety and go out of their way to make firearms knowledge a taboo or difficult to obtain, should be distrusted to participate in films that involve firearms use. 

Were I an actor and issued a weapon by the propmaster/armorer and told to shoot at at the camera (with a squad of technicians behind it to record everything), you can be damn sure I'm going to eject every cartridge from the system, inspect them, look the weapon over to see if it's functional or not (plugged barrel?  nonfunctional firing pin?  etc) and if I'm told to trust the blanks then I'm going to ask for a new unopened box, and go discharge some of them at a safe backstop and inspect for downrange particles (i.e. shoot at a sheet of paper at 10 feet, 25 feet, etc).  Then use the box I've personally seen to be "safe" and keep it and the weapon under joint supervision of me and the armorer, until I need it on scene.  Discharging anything in the direction of another person absent legitimate violent intent is too dangerous for anything less than personal accountability and ownership.

Have you guys all seen Penn and Teller's magic bullet trick?  Where one shoots a .38 special revolver through a glass backstop, and the other appears to catch it in his mouth?  Real guns, real projectiles.  Not quite as it seems and there is illusion going on here, most likely with deliberately mis-aligned laser sights causing them to shoot offstage rather than at each other, and slight of hand while donning protective gear.  But it's a live on-stage discharge of a .38 special cartridge with projectile.  These guys meticulously own their weapons used and take ownership of the actions done with them while entertaining an audience.  They're actors/entertainers, but they know very well what they are about when using those weapons.  If they can do it, then Alec Baldwin can bother to learn enough to determine the load status of an SAA.

Abdication of responsibility, when using a REAL gun, is just abhorrent.  I don't care if you hire police or military armorers or whatever to supervise.  No one can take away ownership of pulling the trigger.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: T.O.M. on October 23, 2021, 07:30:11 PM
I have an acquaintance who worked in Hollywood, and did some work on some popular shows, like Justified.  She told me once that more and more TV shows were switching to airsoft firearms because they are safer than blank guns for close up work, there are fewer legal issues with possession, and they are a lot cheaper to use on set.

Too bad they weren't using airsoft on this set.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: BobR on October 23, 2021, 07:34:37 PM
A friend of mine has a daughter who is working as Assistant Director in the film industry now. I figure she probably knows procedures for firearms on the set better than me. She posted this to her Dad's facebook earlier today during a discussion about this.

Quote
Hi, member of the film industry here 👋🏻
Unless it is found that Baldwin knowingly & purposely put a live round into the weapon, this tragedy is no fault of his.
There a ton of safety protocols that prop firearms go through before they can be handed to an actor and discharged on camera.
There are firearm safety personal, stunt coordinators, prop master in charge of the prop itself and 1st ADs and Producers that are in charge of ensuring safety protocols are adhered to.
Making a joke out of set safety & spreading misinformation before information is even available to the public is incredibly insensive to everyone involved in the tragedy.
There are many many reasons why the firing of a prop weapon can go terribly wrong. But safety is the responsibility of specific ambassadors on set (Stunt Coordinator, Prop Master, 1st AD & Producers to name a few) An actor (should) be handed a prop ONLY after is cleared by the proper ambassadors show to him & fellow crew members, a test round is fired & the stunt coordinator has gone over everything with the actor. Actors do not put the round in the firearm. In fact, they are not even allowed to touch anything until is has been cleared. Once the take is complete, the firearm is IMMEDIATELY returned to the prop master for clearance. Actors do no just get to hang on to weapons between takes. Then the entire process starts over again for the next take.
Either way, an actor who was handed a prop that was cleared as safe by the proper ambassadors is not to blame. That’s not how set safety works. Just like when I was 10 & learning to shoot you & Bumpa would show me a cleared weapon before handing it to me to handle. And then show me you loaded the weapon properly before handing it off safely to
fire. Same principals are (or should be) and enacted on a film set.
And making jokes about set safety isn’t cool, It is incredibly serious business and not to be made light of. Nor is a pointing fingers as an outsider with little understanding of how a set is run.
And the reality is we have no idea what happened or who failed to keep the cast & crew safe
[/size][/size].

So a little bit of insight on how it should work.

bob
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: DittoHead on October 23, 2021, 07:36:21 PM
I think it's time for this to end.

It probably is. CGI is good enough these days, they can use CO2 guns that just cycle the slide and fill the rest in later. The only people who are going to really freeze frame a movie to really check out the weapons are the gun nerds anyway - and they should understand that realism isn't as important as safety.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: griz on October 23, 2021, 07:59:19 PM
A friend of mine has a daughter who is working as Assistant Director in the film industry now. I figure she probably knows procedures for firearms on the set better than me. She posted this to her Dad's facebook earlier today during a discussion about this.

A question for her or folks who would know:  From what I've read the director handed the gun to AB and said "cold gun".  How does she know?  Is it entirely taking the word of the prop person?  Does she check?  And wouldn't the prop person hear the cold gun declaration and immediately correct the mistake?  (even with blanks)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: cordex on October 23, 2021, 08:18:47 PM
Were I an actor and …
;/
No, you wouldn’t.
You wouldn’t do extensive teardowns and maintenance on the various vehicles you used during filming.
You wouldn’t check that the food your character handed to another character to eat had been cooked properly.
You wouldn’t do those things because it isn’t your job, and they wouldn’t trust you to do them anyway.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: ConstitutionCowboy on October 23, 2021, 09:33:19 PM
;/
No, you wouldn’t.
You wouldn’t do extensive teardowns and maintenance on the various vehicles you used during filming.
You wouldn’t check that the food your character handed to another character to eat had been cooked properly.
You wouldn’t do those things because it isn’t your job, and they wouldn’t trust you to do them anyway.

This isn't about auto mechanics, cooking, or even making sure the porta-potty is clean. It is about firearm safety. The person tasked with operating the firearm is responsible for what is in the gun, where it is aimed, and what is behind the target. An actor acting or Joe Blow target shooting, hunting, etc., is responsible for any consequences as a result of discharging a firearm.

Look at the training Hally Berry and her co-star undertook when prepping for one of the 007 movies. If she can do it, so can a prima donna like AB.

I've been handed many arms. Every time I took hold of one I pointed it in a safe direction and cleared it. Only once one had a live round in it and it shook me.

I never hand a gun to anyone unless the action is open, and in the case of a revolver with a loading gate, I rotate the cylinder to show whomever is receiving the pistol that all the chambers are empty. To me it is common sense. An actor can and ought to learn how to receive a gun, clear it, and know what is put in it.

Woody
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: griz on October 23, 2021, 09:51:28 PM
I'll bet you've watched a TV show or movie where a cop tales a gun from a bad guy.  Does the scene still have the same feel if the actor has to unload the gun and check the ammo to see if all of it is inert?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 23, 2021, 10:14:57 PM

Look at the training Hally Berry and her co-star undertook when prepping for one of the 007 movies. If she can do it, so can a prima donna like AB.


John Wick 3, not Bond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idf6nb6FF74

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unp4PaMKezY
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: gunsmith on October 23, 2021, 10:53:07 PM
 Alec is vaccinated, don't say infowars didn't warn us about the vaccines!
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on October 24, 2021, 04:41:11 AM
John Wick 3, not Bond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idf6nb6FF74

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unp4PaMKezY

Dang it. That's the first time in over 25 years I felt even the slightest urge to get married again.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 24, 2021, 08:17:28 AM
John Wick 3, not Bond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idf6nb6FF74

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unp4PaMKezY

Man, those ET Canada guys in the first link are a couple of Marys. Sadly, that's likely the attitude of the average movie goer, and to keep from veering the thread, related to why evil real guns are still so "cool" in Hollywood.

I remember seeing the Halle Berry video when it first came out, and I have to say that it turned me around about what I assumed about her. She is absolutely impressive and I think better than me with a gun.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 24, 2021, 08:43:20 AM
Alec is vaccinated, don't say infowars didn't warn us about the vaccines!

Alec was a Class A Jerk long before the vaccine
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ron on October 24, 2021, 08:47:37 AM
Has it been confirmed that it was an actual live cartridge that was fired? 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 24, 2021, 09:03:22 AM
Has it been confirmed that it was an actual live cartridge that was fired?

There are only three things I think we're 100% sure of at this point
1) Something went bang
2) Someone is dead
3) Alec pulled the trigger
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: griz on October 24, 2021, 10:22:42 AM
^^^  Best summary I have heard.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RoadKingLarry on October 24, 2021, 10:33:56 AM
There are only three things I think we're 100% sure of at this point
1) Something went bang
2) Someone is dead
3) Alec pulled the trigger

I would add to that:
4) Multiple people screwed up
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: ConstitutionCowboy on October 24, 2021, 11:27:07 AM
John Wick 3, not Bond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idf6nb6FF74

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unp4PaMKezY

I guess I don't watch John Wick movies. Thanks for the correction!

Woody
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 24, 2021, 11:40:04 AM
I would add to that:
4) Multiple people screwed up

I don't think we know that for sure. Isn't it possible Baldwin slipped in a live round after everyone else checked the gun?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 24, 2021, 11:42:28 AM
I would add to that:
4) Multiple people screwed up

I actually thought about adding that but intentionally left it out because there are things that could have happened in the chain of events we're not aware of.
It's sitting at 90% in my mind though
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 24, 2021, 11:52:13 AM
https://popculture.com/movies/news/alec-baldwin-rust-accident-gun-used-shooting-allegedly-used-off-set-target-practice/

According to this article, prop guns were also used for recreational shooting when not being used for filming. Not sure, but I think that's a no-no in the industry. Also, there was live ammunition on the set, and that is definitely a no-no in the industry.

Several other articles I saw this morning said that there had been THREE other "misfires" on the set prior to the one that killed Ms. Hutchins. By "misfires," I think they mean negligent discharges. Those are not really "misfires," since the guns apparently discharged when the trigger was pulled. I don't know if it's the people from the production crew who are calling these incidents "misfires," or the media, but they aren't "misfires."
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on October 24, 2021, 12:54:39 PM
Look at the training Hally Berry and her co-star undertook when prepping for one of the 007 movies. If she can do it, so can a prima donna like AB.

Woody

John Wick 3, not Bond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idf6nb6FF74

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unp4PaMKezY

Halle Berry was in the Bond film "Die Another Day" with Pierce Brosnan.  I could not find any references to what firearms training she might have had in preparation for that film, however.  If she had any training in that film, I doubt it was a thorough as what she underwent for "John Wick 3".
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: bedlamite on October 24, 2021, 06:51:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDHtHWyvbMM
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Angel Eyes on October 24, 2021, 07:14:09 PM
Unsurprisingly, the call to ban guns from film sets has begun:

https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-business-movies-gun-politics-prop-gun-shooting-16b511c9dd479b06d9f63fe763445698
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: HeroHog on October 24, 2021, 07:16:55 PM
The most BASIC of gun safety, the 4 rules, would have prevented this.

The Four Rules
1. Always treat a gun like it's loaded and when handed one, check for yourself to ensure it's not, then still treat it like it's loaded!
2. Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target (and you have made the decision to shoot).
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it!

Addendum:
a. Keep your guns out of the reach of others, unless under your personal supervision. Retention holsters are a MUST when wearing a gun in public!
b. Idiots, alcohol and firearms. You get one and only one at a time. Otherwise there are ambulance rides.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 25, 2021, 08:02:49 AM
A couple of interesting articles that may shed some light regarding not following procedures. I found this especially interesting:

Quote
Souza said three people were handling the gun for the scene. Armorer Hanna Gutierrez Reed reportedly handled three prop guns left on a cart outside the structure they were shooting in due to coronavirus restrictions. Assistant director Dave Halls handed one of those guns to Baldwin. According to a Santa Fe court, Halls announced that it was a "cold gun" before giving it to the actor, lingo meaning that the firearm was unloaded.

It's not totally clear from the quote, but it appears that because "covid" the gun cart was outside the work area. That barrier could easily cause a lapse in custodial procedures.

The second link points the finger further at the assistant director, who seems to have had some safety incidents in the past.

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/alec-baldwin-accidental-shooting-details-halyna-hutchins-death

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/alec-baldwin-prop-gun-crew-member-safety-complaint
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 25, 2021, 08:16:20 AM
This one has a lot of emotional finger pointing, but the, "gun was also used for target practice" could be damning if true.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/10/25/robert-davi-adam-baldwin-and-nick-searcy-respond-to-the-latest-news-on-the-alec-baldwin-shooting/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: cordex on October 25, 2021, 08:17:09 AM
An actual prop guy's take:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP1X5L-AufQ

Fewer dad jokes than his normal videos.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on October 25, 2021, 08:46:45 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O40-d07A2GE
Mr H mentions they had an inexperienced prop master that had safety issues prior to the shooting and may not have known much about the firearms.  Saying it was a low budget film, people had walked off the set recently, and they may have been cutting corners.  A lot of speculation so far with whatever sources people can dig up.  We will see. 

I also heard typical procedures call for 3 people to check the gun before it is handed to the actor.  Apparently this wasn't done.  Either way, Baldwin is the producer of the movie and he is responsible for the set.  He may not be criminally liable, but financial liability is another matter.

I haven't followed the discussion over the weekend so I may be repeating what someone else said.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 25, 2021, 09:35:44 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O40-d07A2GE
Mr H mentions they had an inexperienced prop master that had safety issues prior to the shooting and may not have known much about the firearms.  Saying it was a low budget film, people had walked off the set recently, and they may have been cutting corners.  A lot of speculation so far with whatever sources people can dig up.  We will see. 


I'm only spouting off based on what I've been reading, much of which seems to be speculation. Speculating though, I think the gun girl might be getting somewhat set up. Right now it's looking to me like the assistant director that called the gun "cold" appears to be a pompous ass - almost comedically like the stereotypical Hollywood person that thinks their *expletive deleted*it don't stink and everybody better do what they say and not look them in the eye or they're fired.

I can easily see him circumventing rules because "I'm the boss". I might have missed it, but I have seen no statements by him as of now, which might be on the advice of his attorney.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Boomhauer on October 25, 2021, 09:37:28 AM
So it turns out there had already been several serious incidents of gun safety on the set…at what point do you say “no we can’t continue until this is addressed?”

Even if you don’t believe Baldwin has culpability as an actor he definitely has it as producer to put a stop to stuff until safety issues have been addressed. He has blood on his hands from being the dumb *expletive deleted*ck who pointed a gun at another person and pulled the trigger and from being one of the head guys who should have put a stop to stuff. *expletive deleted*ck him, let him hang but no in Hollywood we don’t believe in any kind of personal responsibility whether it’s raping kids or starlets or literally killing through gross negligence
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: TechMan on October 25, 2021, 11:18:26 AM
John Wick 3, not Bond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idf6nb6FF74

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unp4PaMKezY

Looks like she broke the 180 a couple of times in one of those training videos.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Angel Eyes on October 25, 2021, 11:49:15 AM
This one has a lot of emotional finger pointing, but the, "gun was also used for target practice" could be damning if true.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/10/25/robert-davi-adam-baldwin-and-nick-searcy-respond-to-the-latest-news-on-the-alec-baldwin-shooting/

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/gun-fired-alec-baldwin-accidental-death-halyna-hutchins-fired-crew-off-set-fun

Quote
The gun, which was fired by Alec Baldwin on the set of the movie "Rust," may have even been loaded with live rounds when it was used for what was essentially target practice, TMZ reported.

Multiple sources connected to the production of the film told TMZ that the gun was fired at off-the-clock gatherings – which could explain how a live round found its way into the gun’s chamber.

Another source who was on set told the outlet that when cops arrived they found live ammo and blank rounds stored in the same area, where the fatal mix-up could have occurred.

Wow.  Just ... wow.


Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 25, 2021, 11:57:44 AM
New version of what we know 100% for sure

1) Something went bang
2) Someone is dead
3) Alec pulled the trigger
4) It was a cluster *expletive deleted*ck
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on October 25, 2021, 12:07:34 PM
The main concrete info I think we found out over the weekend is this was a working pistol, not what we would call a prop gun.  And it was a real cartridge that was fired, not a blank or some other alternative. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 25, 2021, 12:11:46 PM
The main concrete info I think we found out over the weekend is this was a working pistol, not what we would call a prop gun.  And it was a real cartridge that was fired, not a blank or some other alternative.

A lot of people are harping on that but since it was being used as a prop I'm not getting too bent out of shape over the matter.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Brad Johnson on October 25, 2021, 12:13:15 PM
What the ever-loving frak??!!


Quote
Multiple sources connected to the production of the film told TMZ that the gun was fired at off-the-clock gatherings – which could explain how a live round found its way into the gun’s chamber.

Another source who was on set told the outlet that when cops arrived they found live ammo and blank rounds stored in the same area, where the fatal mix-up could have occurred
.


Fail #1: They shouldn't have been using a functional firearm in the first place. There are plenty of letter-perfect replicas available that will only chamber and fire blanks. At the very least, have any real firearms modified by the several competent movie-industry gunsmiths so they function with blank cartridges only. 

Fail #2: If a real firearm was allowed on set, there should have been only two people allowed to handle it... the armorer and the actor during the scene. At all other times it should be locked securely away and access strictly limited to one or two qualified and experienced individuals.

Fail #3: If a functional firearm was being used on set, the gun shouldn't have been loaded with live ammo at all, for any reason, at any time during production.

Fail #4: If the gun really was being used for target practice, the prop master should have cleared it at least three times after use. Once before it went back into the production inventory, second when it was pulled from inventory and readied for a scene, and third when it was assigned to the actor for that scene.

Fail #5: At no time should live rounds be allowed anywhere on the set. For any reason. Ever.

Sounds like this wasn't a simple single point of failure, but rather an entire three-ring circus of it. Absolutely inexcusable.

Brad
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ron on October 25, 2021, 12:15:07 PM
A lot of people are harping on that but since it was being used as a prop I'm not getting too bent out of shape over the matter.
What do you call a prop gun that chambers and fires live ammunition?

You call it a GUN

Most people hear "prop gun" on TV and think of something like a starter pistol.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 25, 2021, 12:18:12 PM
What do you call a prop gun that chambers and fires ammunition cartridges?

You call it a GUN

True and I agree. Just stated I'm not getting bent out of shape over it.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 25, 2021, 12:24:11 PM
Could it be we also have a young inexperienced armorer afraid to say no to Mr. Baldwin?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Brad Johnson on October 25, 2021, 12:32:59 PM
Could it be we also have a young inexperienced armorer afraid to say no to Mr. Baldwin?

Absolutely. There are plenty of producers, directors, and actors known for being pushy, demanding prima donnas who expect their orders be carried out Right Effing Now!!, ethics or safety concerns be damned.

Brad
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RoadKingLarry on October 25, 2021, 12:36:22 PM
Could it be we also have a young inexperienced armorer afraid to say no to Mr. Baldwin?

Got to have some peon to throw under the bus and take the fall.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on October 25, 2021, 12:55:33 PM
My natural "paranoia" still thinks two incidents weeks apart of finding real ammo in a "property gun" smacks strongly of a put up job designed by someone to create a "gun incident."

This, even though the guns were used for target practice a few times.

And let's not fixate on the "prop gun" thing. "Property" used in theatrical scenes are called "props."  A "prop gun" does not imply it is necessarily non-functional. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on October 25, 2021, 01:13:48 PM
I wonder if what would have been normal safety practices were modified because of covid?  Could covid safety be taking precedence over gun safety?
There was a mention in one story that the guns were kept on a cart outside of the set where the fatal scene was being filmed.  This was supposedly due to covid restrictions, though I can't imagine exactly how that would keep folks from catching the bug. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on October 25, 2021, 02:42:44 PM
I wonder if what would have been normal safety practices were modified because of covid?  Could covid safety be taking precedence over gun safety?
There was a mention in one story that the guns were kept on a cart outside of the set where the fatal scene was being filmed.  This was supposedly due to covid restrictions, though I can't imagine exactly how that would keep folks from catching the bug.
It is possible, but articles have said there were people who walked off the set due to safety concerns and/or lack of pay.  I figure COVID was not high on the list of concerns. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on October 25, 2021, 03:42:29 PM
It's important to keep in mind that Hollywood is in the midst of a massive labor strike anways with one of the non-actors' guilds (IATSE) that offers operational support on sets.

The walk-out on the Rust set was led by IATSE crew.

A more conspiratorial mind might even hope the police investigate to see if the walk-off crew were involved in the on-set plinking with the film weaponry, and could have contributed to or even manufactured the unsafe condition deliberately.

I still say Baldwin is morally and ideally legally at fault for the death.  A firearm is a firearm and a trigger yank is a trigger yank.  Being an actor (say it with me, ack-TOR, Ben Kingsley style from Iron Man 3) doesn't absolve you from the act of putting lead into another human any more than any other state of human ignorance of firearms knowledge or safety practices.  But if some union troglodyte contributed to the problem deliberately, that implicates IATSE in conspiracy.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 25, 2021, 03:50:38 PM

A more conspiratorial mind might even hope the police investigate to see if the walk-off crew were involved in the on-set plinking with the film weaponry, and could have contributed to or even manufactured the unsafe condition deliberately.


I brought up the possibility that one of the disgruntled workers could have tampered with the gun and/or ammo earlier.
But
That doesn't get the armorer and the co-director, who told Balwin the gun was cold (unloaded), off the hook because they should have at the very least checked the gun before it was handed to him.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 25, 2021, 04:18:44 PM
That doesn't get the armorer and the co-director, who told Balwin the gun was cold (unloaded), off the hook because they should have at the very least checked the gun before it was handed to him.

I've been leaning towards the associate producer taking the gun off the cart without checking with the gun girl.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 25, 2021, 04:30:17 PM
I've been leaning towards the associate producer taking the gun off the cart without checking with the gun girl.

Was it the associate producer or the associate director that handed the gun to Baldwin? I thought it was the AD. And are co-dir and assoc dir the same thing?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 25, 2021, 04:32:04 PM
Was it the associate producer or the associate director that handed the gun to Baldwin? I thought it was the AD. And are co-dir and assoc dir the same thing?

Sorry, I meant the assistant director, Dave Halls.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 25, 2021, 04:35:05 PM
Okay, what's the correct term to use here or are they interchangeable? I've heard him called all three.
Co-Director?
Associate Director?
Assistant Director?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: dogmush on October 25, 2021, 04:36:18 PM
As more background and previous interviews and statements come out, it's seeming more and more like the armorer wasn't really qualified, and created a very unsafe and blasé attitude around her firearms.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: just Warren on October 25, 2021, 04:40:31 PM
It's a film set, how is there no footage of what happened?

Aren't the cameras rolling all the time?

Aren't there people doing behind-the-scenes filming for "making of" specials?

Random crew with their phones surreptitiously videoing for the sharing on Tik-Tubes?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 25, 2021, 04:42:15 PM
It's a film set, how is there no footage of what happened?

Aren't the cameras rolling all the time?


I think I read they were rehearsing. Which would also explain why the gun  was suppose to be "cold"
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: just Warren on October 25, 2021, 04:44:34 PM
I believe it was a rehearsal

Still though, I've seen numerous clips from rehearsals from TV and movies.

Enough to make me think the cameras are always going.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 25, 2021, 04:47:22 PM
Sorry about the above, changed my wording a bit and you beat me to it.

Still though, I've seen numerous clips from rehearsals from TV and movies.

Enough to make me think the cameras are always going.

There very well could be film that we haven't heard of/seen yet but I doubt the cameras are always going.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on October 25, 2021, 04:52:59 PM
It's a film set, how is there no footage of what happened?

Aren't the cameras rolling all the time?

Aren't there people doing behind-the-scenes filming for "making of" specials?

Random crew with their phones surreptitiously videoing for the sharing on Tik-Tubes?

He was playing with the gun between takes.  (what kind of idiot points a gun at another person for that instead of, I dunno, that coffee cup over there?)

There might be some unofficial video that we don't know about yet.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on October 25, 2021, 05:08:14 PM
I also question why any rehearsal or shot required that gun to be pointed and fired at the cinematographer. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 25, 2021, 05:15:06 PM
I could see Baldwin retiring to become a full-time gun-grabber. He'd probably be a lot more effective than most of those who've tried. Dang it.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 25, 2021, 05:17:06 PM
I also question why any rehearsal or shot required that gun to be pointed and fired at the cinematographer.

Plenty of shots in movies where the gun is fired towards the camera and I'm sure they rehearse to get the lighting and camera angles right which again would explain why the gun was suppose to be "cold". But unfortunately in this case the gun went bang instead of click.

There's still the possibility he was playing around.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on October 25, 2021, 05:20:54 PM
If it isn't inert it is ert.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 25, 2021, 05:25:13 PM
If it isn't inert it is ert.

Outert  :P
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 25, 2021, 05:29:14 PM
Still though, I've seen numerous clips from rehearsals from TV and movies.

Enough to make me think the cameras are always going.

The union camera operators had mostly walked off the project. As a result, the scene was being shot with only one camera, which was not rolling at the time of the incident because they were doing a dry run.

That doesn't preclude the possibility that someone may hav cell phone video, but there won't be actual footage "in the can."
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: bedlamite on October 25, 2021, 07:29:12 PM
(https://i.redd.it/men7k2k9shv71.jpg)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 25, 2021, 07:39:25 PM
Could covid safety be taking precedence over gun safety?

Haven't you been paying attention the last year-and-a-half? Covid "safety" overrules everything!!! Everything!!!* No less a luminary than Chris Cuomo himself has told us that covid should "dominate" us.


*Unless you're having a Hate whitey riot, obvy.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 26, 2021, 09:06:35 AM
Well this don't look good
They don't say how he was supposedly responsible* though
Edit: I know he's responsible but I mean as in what did he do or nor do?

Quote
The assistant director of “Rust” who reportedly handed Alec Baldwin the prop gun that killed Halyna Hutchins was fired from a previous production gig over another firearm incident.

In 2019 when Dave Halls was an assistant director on the movie “Freedom’s Path,” a gun “unexpectedly discharged,” injuring a sound crew member, the production company Rocket Soul Studios told CNN.
‘Rust’ assistant director fired from past gig over another ‘unexpected’ gun discharge
https://nypost.com/2021/10/25/rust-assistant-director-dave-halls-fired-from-past-gig-over-another-unexpected-gun-discharge/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 26, 2021, 09:19:00 AM
I was going to post another article that said the same thing.

https://www.newser.com/story/312609/now-scrutiny-of-another-crew-member-on-fatal-baldwin-film.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_entertainment_img_b

How is he responsible? If you watch the video by the professional Hollywood prop master, according to him the assistant director is the guy who is ultimately responsible for gun safety on the set. He is supposed to check all guns used in the production. According to the video, each gun is supposed to be checked by three people: the armorer, the assistant director, and then the actor who receives the gun.

But ... there have been many, many articles and, so far, it's rare to find even two that agree on all the purported details and "expert, professional" opinions they deliver.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 26, 2021, 09:25:53 AM
How is he responsible? If you watch the video by the professional Hollywood prop master, according to him the assistant director is the guy who is ultimately responsible for gun safety on the set. He is supposed to check all guns used in the production. According to the video, each gun is supposed to be checked by three people: the armorer, the assistant director, and then the actor who receives the gun.


I was thinking in terms of what he supposedly did or not do. They don't say.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 26, 2021, 10:31:41 AM
Here's the link to the video by the professional prop master.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP1X5L-AufQ

First, I was encouraged that this guy made the point that this was not a "misfire." The gun functioned as it was designed to. However, he called it an "accidental" discharge, and I don't think it was that, either. Baldwin pulled the trigger. That wasn't an accident. He didn't intend to discharge a live projectile, but the discharge was not an "accident," it was intentional. It was a negligent discharge. The issue to be determined is: whose negligence?

Let's keep on with the video ...

"No live ammo on the set." That protocol was breached. That's the responsibility of the producer(s). And Baldwin is one of the producers, possibly the principal producer.

"Once you have your cart set up, you do not leave it unattended." We don't know if this protocol was being adhered to or not. It would appear that it was not followed, but we don't know that.

"No one should grab a gun except the armorer or the prop master." The AD (Halls) grabbed the gun off the cart and didn't check it in any way before handing it to Baldwin.

However, the prop master in the video then says that the protocol should be for the armorer or the prop master to take the empty gun onto the set, to the first assistant director (Halls), and then clear the gun in front of him. The AD is supposed to handle and shake each dummy round to verify that it's a dummy. Only then are the dummy rounds loaded into the gun. "It's ultimately on the first assistant director to confirm that the gun is safe." Obvious fail here. Apparently NONE of the safety protocols were observed.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 26, 2021, 01:15:07 PM
Quote
)Crew members on the set of "Rust" used guns with live ammunition and engaged in a pastime called "plinking" hours before Halyna Hutchins was killed, founder and CEO of The Wrap, Sharon Waxman, told CNN's Don Lemon Monday night, citing information from an individual with knowledge of the set.
One of the guns used was later handed to actor Alec Baldwin, who fired the shot that killed Hutchins, 42, and injured director Joel Souza, The Wrap reported.

'Rust' crew members reportedly used guns with live ammunition hours before deadly shooting on set
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/26/entertainment/alec-baldwin-rust-shooting-tuesday/index.html

More on the armorer side of things from The Daily Mail

Quote
She also admitted in the podcast interview she found loading blanks into a gun 'the scariest' thing because she did not know how to do it and had sought help from her father.
Quote
The source said: 'She was a bit careless with the guns, waving it around every now and again. There were a couple times she was loading the blanks and doing it in a fashion that we thought was unsafe.'

The insider added that they had seen her loading a gun on pebble strewn ground – which has the potential to be dangerous – before handing off the gun to Armstrong.

'She was reloading the gun on the ground, where there were pebbles and stuff,' the source said. 'We didn't see her check it, we didn't know if something got in the barrel or not.'
Quote
Rust crew members claim there were several complaints made against the armorer on the set and that at least six 'fed-up' people had walked off the set prior to Gutierrez-Reed handing Baldwin the gun that killed Hutchins.

The crew made their complaints directly to assistant director Dave Hall - who is named in the search warrant affidavit as the person handed Baldwin the gun that killed Hutchins and told him it was safe - and demanded all the discharges were documented.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10130717/The-armorer-set-Rust-Baldwin-killed-cinematographer-pictured-home.html

Yikes! What a cluster *expletive deleted*ck
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: K Frame on October 26, 2021, 01:20:06 PM
With everything that's coming out my guess is...

1. A bunch of careers have ended.

2. There are going to be criminal charges for at least some people.

3. The lawsuits are going to be many and the damages that will be demanded will be ENORMOUS, and Baldwin is going to be on the hook for a lot of money.



Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 26, 2021, 01:31:20 PM
Not to trivialize someone's death but would many here be paying as much attention to this if Baldwin wasn't so rabid anti-gun? I have to say in my case in all fairness probably not as much.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: BobR on October 26, 2021, 01:42:57 PM
Not to trivialize someone's death but would many here be paying as much attention to this if Baldwin wasn't so rabid anti-gun? I have to say in my case in all fairness probably not as much.

I would say probably not. But at least it won't be a huge surprise when he comes out demonizing all guns more than he does now. Unlike the Brady or Gifford anti-gun epiphany.

This whole series of events reminds me of the Swiss Cheese model for aviation accidents. The potential for an accident is always there, you just have to make sure the holes in the layers don't line up.

https://www.aviationfile.com/swiss-cheese-model/

bob

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Angel Eyes on October 26, 2021, 01:51:55 PM
Not to trivialize someone's death but would many here be paying as much attention to this if Baldwin wasn't so rabid anti-gun? I have to say in my case in all fairness probably not as much.

The story certainly garnered more attention from the pro-RKBA people due to Baldwin's politics, but given his notoriety among the general public, this would have been a big story anyway.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on October 26, 2021, 02:36:05 PM
A story about a person getting shot and killed on a movie set would have gotten some attention and some discussion on gun forums.  The fact that a well known actor pulled the trigger made it a big story for everyone.  Baldwin's past just added fuel to the fire.

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 27, 2021, 12:42:05 AM
After so many pixels and podcasts used to discuss this incident, it seems that it mostly boils down to just a bunch of people being very careless with deadly weapons. Baldwin and the other suits didn't care how inexperienced their gun girl was. They didn't care that the AD had a bad record on gun safety. They didn't care about following rules that are (reportedly) basic to gun safety on a film set.

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 27, 2021, 08:59:33 AM
After so many pixels and podcasts used to discuss this incident, it seems that it mostly boils down to just a bunch of people being very careless with deadly weapons. Baldwin and the other suits didn't care how inexperienced their gun girl was. They didn't care that the AD had a bad record on gun safety. They didn't care about following rules that are (reportedly) basic to gun safety on a film set.

In other words guns are bad and need to be banned
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ron on October 27, 2021, 09:16:01 AM
After so many pixels and podcasts used to discuss this incident, it seems that it mostly boils down to just a bunch of people being very careless with deadly weapons. Baldwin and the other suits didn't care how inexperienced their gun girl was. They didn't care that the AD had a bad record on gun safety. They didn't care about following rules that are (reportedly) basic to gun safety on a film set.

They really are a bunch of shallow people in that industry.

Considering his stance on guns you would think the safe handling of weapons on the set would have been a priority.

It really was all just posturing, with no real depth of thought or conviction.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 27, 2021, 09:51:22 AM
They really are a bunch of shallow people in that industry.

Considering his stance on guns you would think the safe handling of weapons on the set would have been a priority.

It really was all just posturing, with no real depth of thought or conviction.

Au contraire, mon ami. I'm sure Alec Baldwin had strong convictions -- guns are not safe for you and me, but he's spayshul, so nothing he says applies to him. Rules about gun safety also don't apply to him -- quod erat demonstrandum.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 27, 2021, 09:56:58 AM
Au contraire, mon ami. I'm sure Alec Baldwin had strong convictions -- guns are not safe for you and me, but he's spayshul, so nothing he says applies to him. Rules about gun safety also don't apply to him -- quod erat demonstrandum.

This is how it always works, yet we're always the bad guys.

Our side always says, "If you don't want to do "X" then don't do it, what do I care?" Their side says, "I hate "X" and that means you can't have it."

Yet we're always the bad guys.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: T.O.M. on October 27, 2021, 12:40:09 PM
Talked to a friend who works in the industry last night.  His specialty is as a vehicle wrangler, as he calls it.  Mostly, he obtains and provides vehicles for films and TV shows and commercials.  Not stunt vehicles, but everything else.  His bet (based on his years of experience in the industry):

1. Armourer is done.  Whether this was her fault or not, this is a black mark on her career that will never go away.  At best, she may end up working for a weapons crew, but she'll never be the full armourer again.
2. Assistant Director who handed Baldwin the gun is done.  Same as the armourer, this is a black mark that will end his career. He doesn't have the name to get past it.
3. Baldwin is going to end up writing a big check to settle the civil suits.  He will give interviews in which he will cry and blame the armourer and assistant director.  And his career will continue unabated, because he is Hollywood royalty.  He will say "guns are bad," and will double down on his anti-gun rhetoric.
4. Some feds and some Hollywood types are going to push the idea of legislation banning "real" guns from movie sets, which will do nothing in the long run but, you know, let no tragedy go to waste.
5. The usual gun grabbers are going to triumph this as a showing that, even with all of the safety rules and precautions in place, guns kill innocent people, so we must ban private ownership of guns.

So, in short, the least powerful people on the movie set will suffer the most, and guns will be blamed.  So, nothing new.

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 27, 2021, 01:05:11 PM
To TOM's post above, it does look like the gun girl will be a primary fall guy. They are digging up dirt. Despite the fact that she may indeed have been inexperienced, she wasn't the only one in the chain. Interesting that the NY Post article mentions she was doing all the gun stuff by herself in this movie because they didn't hire any help for her.


https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/10/27/dana-loesch-and-nick-searcy-slam-the-pr-effort-to-absolve-alec-baldwin-of-responsibility-for-shooting-halyna-hutchins/

https://nypost.com/2021/10/27/rookie-rust-armorer-made-nicolas-cage-storm-off-previous-set-after-firing-gun/?utm_medium=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: just Warren on October 27, 2021, 01:10:49 PM
I assume those that are going to have to payout will prefer to settle to keep the details out of the public eye but how transparent will the government investigation be with their findings?

Will the principals find a way to keep the more damning information hidden?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 27, 2021, 01:50:09 PM
Not the first death she's been connected with

Quote
An insurance company for the rookie “Rust” armorer in charge of weapons when Alec Baldwin accidentally shot dead his cinematographer reportedly paid her close friend’s family $50,000 last year so she couldn’t be sued after he was killed in a drunken motorcycle crash.

Hannah Gutierrez-Reed’s friend Tyler Dyer wrecked his motorcycle in Arizona after attending a party with her and her boyfriend Aaron Butcher in August last year, TMZ reports.

The 24-year-old former model allegedly told police she saw Dyer and Butcher drink four to five beers each at the party, but still gave her boyfriend — who was already on probation for a DUI — the keys to her own motorcycle so the two men could leave, the outlet reported.

Gutierrez-Reed’s boyfriend was only supposed to be driving vehicles that had a Breathalyzer attached, which her motorcycle didn’t have, according to the outlet
Rookie armorer on Baldwin’s ‘Rust’ set tied to friend’s fatal crash
https://nypost.com/2021/10/27/rust-armorer-hannah-gutierrez-reed-tied-to-friends-death/

Serious lapse of judgment right there
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: dogmush on October 27, 2021, 02:22:57 PM
I have also noticed on social media that people keep digging up pictures of that armorer either posing like a gangster (in the NY Post tweet that Ben linked) or thirst trap screen shots from her Tik Tok account.  It's seems like the mirror of the standard "picture from when he was 10" of Trayvon Marti treatment. There's a concerted effort to make her look (literally, in pics) like an unprofessional child.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 27, 2021, 02:30:00 PM
I have also noticed on social media that people keep digging up pictures of that armorer either posing like a gangster (in the NY Post tweet that Ben linked) or thirst trap screen shots from her Tik Tok account.  It's seems like the mirror of the standard "picture from when he was 10" of Trayvon Marti treatment. There's a concerted effort to make her look (literally, in pics) like an unprofessional child.

That "gangster" pic is in fact the only image of her I saw in various articles until just this morning, when they showed her apparently supervising someone else who was shooting.

Another article (I forget where I saw it yesterday) had a bunch of pictures of the pretty run down house she was renting in AZ. They had interviewed her landlady, who said that she evicted her right after this incident. All kinds of derogatory stuff about her in the article, with implications of either some poor redneck girl or maybe even meth head type finger pointing from their description of her living conditions.

Anyway, whatever else that article showed, it showed that she likely doesn't make enough money to not be a patsy. Certainly not enough dough to hire Gloria Aldrich to protect her, which one of the other cast members has already done.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 27, 2021, 02:49:31 PM
I have also noticed on social media that people keep digging up pictures of that armorer either posing like a gangster (in the NY Post tweet that Ben linked) or thirst trap screen shots from her Tik Tok account.  It's seems like the mirror of the standard "picture from when he was 10" of Trayvon Marti treatment. There's a concerted effort to make her look (literally, in pics) like an unprofessional child.

Don't think they're having to do anything to make her look like an unprofessional child.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: dogmush on October 27, 2021, 02:58:41 PM
Image search (https://www.google.com/search?q=hannah+gutierrez+reed&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwievvaWouvzAhXnAd8KHZK2BwUQ2-cCegQIABAC&oq=+hannah&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQARgAMgQIABADMgQIABADMgoIABCxAxCDARBDMgoIABCxAxCDARBDMgsIABCABBCxAxCDAToHCCMQ7wMQJ1C1hwFY44sBYKmVAWgAcAB4AYABqQGIAZIMkgEEMS4xMpgBAKABAcABAQ&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=mqB5YZ6JH-eD_AaS7Z4o&bih=735&biw=371&client=ms-android-verizon&prmd=isvxn)

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 27, 2021, 03:01:36 PM
If anything the worse she looks the worse Baldwin  as producer & the director look for hiring and keeping both her and the assistant director on after previous incidences
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: T.O.M. on October 27, 2021, 03:52:33 PM
If anything the worse she looks the worse Baldwin  as producer & the director look for hiring and keeping both her and the assistant director on after previous incidences

My thought is that a PI lawyer is looking at all of this and salivating at the thought of throwing it all at Baldwin the Producer and making him write an even bigger check for hiring what they will call a "completely inexperienced armourer and allowing her to bring live ammunition onto the set in violation of even the most basic safety rules that are the minimum standard in the industry."
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: bedlamite on October 27, 2021, 07:25:27 PM
(https://www.texasguntalk.com/attachments/1635080461342-jpeg.284222/)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on October 28, 2021, 02:09:22 PM
Not trying to be funny, but this is starting to sound like one of those nurses who serially kill patients with overdoses.

On the other hand, Ben made an interesting point: "Anyway, whatever else that article showed, it showed that she likely doesn't make enough money to not be a patsy."

Just Warren said:

Quote
I assume those that are going to have to payout will prefer to settle to keep the details out of the public eye but how transparent will the government investigation be with their findings?

Will the principals find a way to keep the more damning information hidden?

Oh, the usual... settlements sealed by the court (or out of court), police have the usual option of not commenting on "an ongoing investigation" where the "investigation" takes a significant portion of forever.

Oh blah dee, oh blah dah...
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on October 28, 2021, 10:36:31 PM
https://babylonbee.com/news/nobody-hurt-after-stormtrooper-accidentally-discharges-238-live-laser-rounds-on-set-of-the-mandalorian
Stormtrooper Accidentally Discharges 238 Live Laser Rounds On 'Mandalorian' Set, No One Hurt

(https://media.babylonbee.com/articles/article-9794-1.jpg)

Quote
When the stormtroopers eventually hit their target during filming, everyone celebrated and gave each other high fives except the stormtroopers, who missed.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Angel Eyes on October 28, 2021, 11:55:20 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/DkzWvbh/Pulling-the-Alec-Baldwin-card.jpg)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on October 29, 2021, 10:37:03 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/DkzWvbh/Pulling-the-Alec-Baldwin-card.jpg)


The "classic" answer to that is, "Sure, how many do you need?"
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: bedlamite on October 29, 2021, 10:45:08 AM
The "classic" answer to that is, "Sure, how many do you need?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMbJr4RSSAY
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on October 30, 2021, 10:28:16 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMbJr4RSSAY



Right on point, with an additional zinger for the left coast.

:rofl:
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Angel Eyes on October 30, 2021, 09:14:15 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/5se6uf.jpg)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Angel Eyes on October 30, 2021, 09:25:04 PM
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgWmTXSLU1JCDxt_zpz7EX4MLGjy7uyg3kvS6o0CSAIJI17zSCrRe9u2b6U3ui4MDOCI0R9BImGXwnKxUqdBTBukb48GtvdORsoxkT5ibU32EDb76GYJF25flREA95z2T5JByGud3OqgeXPwV_VaFzuYUfUKSqb-kPguxBKGoc1sq6j66s4Ym32OHoYEQ=w632-h640)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 30, 2021, 10:21:09 PM
(https://www.guide4moms.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Prop-Gun-Alec-Baldwin-Memes-0.jpg)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 30, 2021, 10:23:09 PM
(https://ahseeit.com//king-include/uploads/2021/10/247376120_3002533583346815_4781624881138472527_n-868656861.jpg)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Angel Eyes on October 30, 2021, 10:37:59 PM
https://www.guide4moms.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Prop-Gun-Alec-Baldwin-Memes-0.jpg

I'm pretty sure the chances of surviving COVID are higher.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 31, 2021, 11:45:29 AM
Now they're talking about Alec maybe developing PTSD. I could see that happening.

Hilaria Baldwin fears Alec will develop PTSD after tragic shooting of Halyna Hutchins
https://nypost.com/2021/10/30/hilaria-baldwin-fears-alec-will-develop-ptsd-after-halyna-hutchins-shooting/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: sumpnz on October 31, 2021, 12:22:48 PM
Now they're talking about Alec maybe developing PTSD. I could see that happening.

Hilaria Baldwin fears Alec will develop PTSD after tragic shooting of Halyna Hutchins
https://nypost.com/2021/10/30/hilaria-baldwin-fears-alec-will-develop-ptsd-after-halyna-hutchins-shooting/

If he wasn’t such an awful person whose stated goal is the enslavement of anyone to the right of Mao I might be able to muster some sympathy.  For him though, IDGAF.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on October 31, 2021, 12:43:43 PM
Now they're talking about Alec maybe developing PTSD. I could see that happening.

Hilaria Baldwin fears Alec will develop PTSD after tragic shooting of Halyna Hutchins
https://nypost.com/2021/10/30/hilaria-baldwin-fears-alec-will-develop-ptsd-after-halyna-hutchins-shooting/
Just adds to the preexisting shock of finding out she was not Spanish.   =)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Boomhauer on October 31, 2021, 01:22:26 PM
Now they're talking about Alec maybe developing PTSD. I could see that happening.

Hilaria Baldwin fears Alec will develop PTSD after tragic shooting of Halyna Hutchins
https://nypost.com/2021/10/30/hilaria-baldwin-fears-alec-will-develop-ptsd-after-halyna-hutchins-shooting/

Of course he is. Anything and everything to make him the true victim in this incident. Just normal Hollywood celebrity procedure.

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on October 31, 2021, 03:34:35 PM
Boomhauer has this in his signature line:

"
Quote from: Ben
'Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...'
"

How apt to this thread.

Just letting you know in case you have the Signature line function turned off.

Terry, 230RN
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on October 31, 2021, 03:54:58 PM
Of course he is. Anything and everything to make him the true victim in this incident. Just normal Hollywood celebrity procedure.

This.  So much this.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Angel Eyes on October 31, 2021, 04:38:01 PM
Hilaria Baldwin fears Alec will develop PTSD after tragic shooting of Halyna Hutchins

Was anyone else reminded of this guy?
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/firing-ar-15-horrifying-dangerous-loud-article-1.2673201
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 31, 2021, 04:47:00 PM
Was anyone else reminded of this guy?
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/firing-ar-15-horrifying-dangerous-loud-article-1.2673201

What's the comparison?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Angel Eyes on October 31, 2021, 05:21:57 PM
What's the comparison?

The claims of PTSD.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on October 31, 2021, 05:27:53 PM
The armorer on "Rust" film is finally speaking out in her defense through her lawyers.  She is claiming her requests to improve safety on the set were overruled by producers and her bosses.
https://www.oann.com/armorer-on-rust-film-set-says-producers-overruled-her-safety-requests/ (https://www.oann.com/armorer-on-rust-film-set-says-producers-overruled-her-safety-requests/)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on October 31, 2021, 06:34:34 PM
The armorer on "Rust" film is finally speaking out in her defense through her lawyers.  She is claiming her requests to improve safety on the set were overruled by producers and her bosses.
https://www.oann.com/armorer-on-rust-film-set-says-producers-overruled-her-safety-requests/ (https://www.oann.com/armorer-on-rust-film-set-says-producers-overruled-her-safety-requests/)

I trust she has at least some of this in writing.  There's nothing like keeping a "Pearl Harbor File."  Or having witnesses to the objections.

I still, personally, lay 99 point four more nines percent of the blame on the party who cocked the gun, allowed it to be pointed at a person, and pulled the trigger.

I suspect that ammunition can actually tiptoe around, hiding in small dark places, until it finds a suitable chamber to slip into and rest until awakened.

And I've often said you never point a gun anywhere you can't fix the hole.

Terry, 230RN
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: ConstitutionCowboy on October 31, 2021, 06:56:49 PM

...

And I've often said you never point a gun anywhere you can't fix the hole.

Terry, 230RN

Priceless.

Woody
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: BobR on October 31, 2021, 07:02:23 PM
Everything else has been beaten to death by now so my mind just naturally wanders. I have been trying to figure out the positioning of the  people and how the bullet managed a thoracic pass through and then struck the next person in the shoulder high enough to hit the clavicle (?) or at least end up in the shoulder. I guess AB could have been on the ground but that doesn't make sense. She could also be much taller than the dwarf (?) they hired as director. ;)

So now we can have more discussion. :)

Maybe we will get a diagram someday.


bob
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: just Warren on October 31, 2021, 08:06:47 PM
Some cameras have seats that position the operator so that as the camera raises or lowers depending on the needs for the filming of the scene the operator moves with the camera instead of standing on the ground and manipulating it from there. Thus they are often elevated relative to the actors. And they have footrests or some place to stand.

So if Baldwin was standing normally on the ground and the the decedent was in the seat and the other victim was behind her standing on the footrest looking over her shoulder at the shot composition through the lens of the camera they would have been at an upward angle to Baldwin's position. And their bodies would have been close together, maybe even touching chest-to-back, directly in line with each other thus increasing the chance of a pass-through.

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: just Warren on October 31, 2021, 09:46:15 PM
As to how the trigger was pulled, we know from his history that Baldwin is not a careful person.

He has showed a lack of discipline and forethought in his life numerous times.

We also know that his past includes heavy alcohol and drug use and while he might have been sober at the time of the shooting it's possible that his use long-term use of drugs and alcohol lessened his motor control or caused spasms. 

It is easy to imagine that he was having a conversation with the victims and, as people do, he was gesticulating to emphasize points he was making. Unfortunately he was holding a gun that was able to launch something, somehow out of the muzzle.

So as he is waving his hands about, and maybe even using the gun to point directly at the victims, he carelessly put his finger on the trigger and his lack of motor control or a spasm caused him to pull the trigger.

This seems more plausible to me than him deliberately pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger on purpose.

He's still responsible, of course.  Both as the person who did the shooting and as a producer.




 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on October 31, 2021, 09:58:14 PM
Everything else has been beaten to death by now so my mind just naturally wanders. I have been trying to figure out the positioning of the  people and how the bullet managed a thoracic pass through and then struck the next person in the shoulder high enough to hit the clavicle (?) or at least end up in the shoulder. I guess AB could have been on the ground but that doesn't make sense. She could also be much taller than the dwarf (?) they hired as director. ;)

So now we can have more discussion. :)

Maybe we will get a diagram someday.

bob

Might have been a hip shot.  Also she might have been standing on a platform.

How far away was the second victim?  .45 Colt is a big heavy bullet with a lot of momentum. Shooting through a girl wouldn't slow it down much unless it hit something like a femur, and even that might not stop it.

I wonder if it ever occurs to anyone in Hollywood to film shots like that using an angled mirror?  (someone mentioned that in this thread earlier and I thought it was brilliant)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on October 31, 2021, 10:44:52 PM
I wonder if it ever occurs to anyone in Hollywood to film shots like that using an angled mirror?  (someone mentioned that in this thread earlier and I thought it was brilliant)

A special double mirror arrangement would have to be used in order to not reverse the image.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on October 31, 2021, 10:48:11 PM
A special double mirror arrangement would have to be used in order to not reverse the image.

I thought about that; couldn't they use a single mirror and reverse it during editing or post-production or whatever they call it?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on October 31, 2021, 10:52:54 PM
I thought about that; couldn't they use a single mirror and reverse it during editing or post-production or whatever they call it?

Hadn't thought about that.  They probably could.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 31, 2021, 11:10:28 PM
At this point, we don't know who or what to believe.

I read earlier today that the armorer gal has released a statement through her attorney. She says that

In contrast, there have been numerous statements by crew that the prop guns were used for target practice during breaks.

Stay tuned ...  [popcorn]
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 31, 2021, 11:17:32 PM
A special double mirror arrangement would have to be used in order to not reverse the image.

Super easy to flip the image in processing
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: just Warren on October 31, 2021, 11:20:00 PM
If guns were used for target practice it doesn't mean she knew about it or approved of it even if she did know.

Baldwin seems like the type that would not only do that sort of thing, but encourage it. Maybe even demand it as group bonding sort of thing.

Of course, as said above, she should have recorded anything that was out of the normal course of things.

Maybe she has that, maybe she doesn't.

Discovery would be very interesting.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: BobR on November 01, 2021, 12:29:38 AM
Might have been a hip shot.  Also she might have been standing on a platform.

How far away was the second victim?  .45 Colt is a big heavy bullet with a lot of momentum. Shooting through a girl wouldn't slow it down much unless it hit something like a femur, and even that might not stop it.

I wonder if it ever occurs to anyone in Hollywood to film shots like that using an angled mirror?  (someone mentioned that in this thread earlier and I thought it was brilliant)

The reason many in Hollywood don't understand the power of gunss because they use play guns with no recoil, etc.

A lot of gun people don't understand big, slow bullets. I shoot 45 Colt a lot. I shoot pins and that big slow bullet sets the pins back with authority. I run 255gr hardcast SWC at 900fps. I would bet at close range that bullet could go end to end on a deer and most of the way on a larger animal. I am not at all surprised it went through the female.

bob
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on November 01, 2021, 01:42:00 PM
A good idea I heard was to require anyone who is slated to handle a gun in any media to take a full-fedged live-fire firearms course designed and sanctioned, of course, by the NRA.

This would probably be a good way to nibble away at the anti-2A acting clique and create more firearms "aficionados."

"By the NRA," of course, just to rub it in.

But of course, this makes another regulatory burden on firearms usage, so forget I said it.

Terry "Still in a half-dream state while his morning coffee is still brewing," 230RN

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: just Warren on November 01, 2021, 02:01:16 PM
If there were guns being used for target practice does it mean it was the guns for the movie?

It's possible that there were privately owned guns brought to the set by actors or crew.

And how is the set armorer supposed to control that?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on November 01, 2021, 02:38:50 PM
At this point, we don't know who or what to believe.

I read earlier today that the armorer gal has released a statement through her attorney. She says that
  • No live ammo was allowed on the set
  • All the guns were locked in a safe during breaks and overnight
  • Nobody was allowed to use the guns for target practice on the set
  • She was overruled on multiple safety issues on the set

In contrast, there have been numerous statements by crew that the prop guns were used for target practice during breaks.

Stay tuned ...  [popcorn]
She really should have quit over that if that was the case.  Pretty much defeats the purpose of her job.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: gunsmith on November 01, 2021, 06:53:13 PM
She really should have quit over that if that was the case.  Pretty much defeats the purpose of her job.

 That could ruin her career.

    I am inclined to dislike her, the hollywood industry just makes me sick.
 Yet, imo it is the fault of the person handling the gun.
 It's awful that personal responsibility was learned this way tho.
 I hope he does at least a year and becomes a prohibited person
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 01, 2021, 09:11:10 PM
What's the comparison?
The claims of PTSD.

Yes, that's pretty much it. Yeah, they both fired guns, but one of them was involved in killing an innocent person. The other idiot killed a piece of paper.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on November 01, 2021, 10:37:34 PM
Unless AB is a psychopath, he *should* have PTSD.  That doesn't make him the victim, unless you mean a victim of his own arrogance and stupidity.  I feel sorry for him a little, but not much.  A year or three in a minimum-security prison might do him some good.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on November 02, 2021, 04:21:48 AM
gunsmith mentioned:

"I hope he does at least a year and becomes a prohibited person."

That remark makes one wonder how many of the actors and extras on the sets of movies and TV shows who handle real guns are actually prohibited persons in the first place.

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on November 02, 2021, 02:39:04 PM
That could ruin her career.

    I am inclined to dislike her, the hollywood industry just makes me sick.
 Yet, imo it is the fault of the person handling the gun.
 It's awful that personal responsibility was learned this way tho.
 I hope he does at least a year and becomes a prohibited person
It might.  However, someone getting killed on set when you are responsible for the guns could do the same.  These are the type of people who want to blame everyone but themselves.  If they won't follow basic safety procedures, you have to draw the line somewhere.  If the rumor that there were prior incidents on this shoot, that should have been a warning to everyone including her.  A little bit of Monday morning quarterbacking on my part.  It can be difficult to do that when you are involved. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on November 02, 2021, 02:42:54 PM
A little bit of idle speculation and conspiracy mongering. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-L5qrMQAn0
Alec Baldwin Shooting: CRAZY Conspiracy Theories! Lauren Southern & Chrissie Mayr GO DEEP!
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on November 02, 2021, 05:00:37 PM
A special double mirror arrangement would have to be used in order to not reverse the image.

Or you re-reverse it in image processing.  Hell, if MSPaint can do it, then so can high end video editing software.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on November 02, 2021, 07:48:56 PM
A little bit of idle speculation and conspiracy mongering. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-L5qrMQAn0
Alec Baldwin Shooting: CRAZY Conspiracy Theories! Lauren Southern & Chrissie Mayr GO DEEP!

From the comments: "SNL Should hire Trump to play Baldwin in a sketch about this whole thing "

 [ar15]
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on November 02, 2021, 08:27:18 PM
Or you re-reverse it in image processing.  Hell, if MSPaint can do it, then so can high end video editing software.

You don't need high-end software. Windows Movie maker can do it:

https://www.animaker.com/hub/how-to-flip-a-video/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on November 03, 2021, 11:00:19 AM
Ironically Ian on Forgotten Weapons has been doing some Dutch pistols and the safety's safe position is marked RUST
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on November 08, 2021, 01:28:04 PM
This should solve the problem:

Quote
Alec Baldwin on Monday took to social media to urge Hollywood to employ a police officer on every film and TV set that uses guns.

“Every film/TV set that uses guns, fake or otherwise, should have a police officer on set, hired by the production, to specifically monitor weapons safety,” the Rust star and producer tweeted from his account, which is now private. He also shared a screenshot of the tweet on his Instagram page.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: BobR on November 08, 2021, 01:39:52 PM
Quote
This should solve the problem:

Quote
Alec Baldwin on Monday took to social media to urge Hollywood to employ a police officer on every film and TV set that uses guns.

“Every film/TV set that uses guns, fake or otherwise, should have a police officer on set, hired by the production, to specifically monitor weapons safety,” the Rust star and producer tweeted from his account, which is now private. He also shared a screenshot of the tweet on his Instagram page.

That's cute, thinking a cop can actually know the different firearms that may be present and know how to ensure safety with them. I think they kind of have that already, it's called an armorer.

I was involved in a fender bender in WA state once and the cop felt more comfortable removing my legally and open carried 1911 from me "for his safety" (Hell if any one deserved to get shot it was the Ahole that plowed into my rearend). Watching him trying to unload my 1911 scared the bejesus out of me, I knew for sure he was going to have an ND and then try to blame me somehow. It was a CF and he would not listen to me nor give it back so I could safe (unload) it for "his safety"

bob
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on November 08, 2021, 02:22:23 PM
"'Every film/TV set that uses guns, fake or otherwise, should have a police officer on set, hired by the production, to specifically monitor weapons safety,' the Rust star and producer tweeted from her account, which is now private. She also shared a screenshot of the tweet on her Instagram page."

It would have been smarter and more realistic if she had specified "local gun store owner"  or "certified NRA instructor," in my opinion.  Far more experience with a diversity of firearms, I would expect.  But, that's Hollywoodland, where reality does not exist.

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on November 08, 2021, 05:23:58 PM
That's cute, thinking a cop can actually know the different firearms that may be present and know how to ensure safety with them. I think they kind of have that already, it's called an armorer.

I was involved in a fender bender in WA state once and the cop felt more comfortable removing my legally and open carried 1911 from me "for his safety" (Hell if any one deserved to get shot it was the Ahole that plowed into my rearend). Watching him trying to unload my 1911 scared the bejesus out of me, I knew for sure he was going to have an ND and then try to blame me somehow. It was a CF and he would not listen to me nor give it back so I could safe (unload) it for "his safety"

bob

lol, I was visiting another APS'er (Jocassee) over in Appalachia, we were on motorcycles.  He was my guide and took off at 80+mph down a rural highway and I had to keep up.  Sure enough, we got pulled over.  I had a Springfield XDs-45 in a concealed pocket of my jacket.  Cop asked if I was armed, told him I was, and boy did he have a hell of a time even finding that pocket.  At one point I told him I was afraid of his fumbling around, that it was going to discharge the weapon and that we would very much not be friends if that happened.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on November 08, 2021, 05:30:17 PM
That's cute, thinking a cop can actually know the different firearms that may be present and know how to ensure safety with them. I think they kind of have that already, it's called an armorer.


My thoughts exactly.

Maybe they should hire this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ain2by4Fums

Or this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQGNzsLkyPg
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on November 08, 2021, 06:27:01 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbBoHj9R0Lc
Apparently over the weekend, some were claiming sabotage by disgruntled people who left the set.  Mr H points out that if the armorer was doing her job, that would not have mattered.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on November 08, 2021, 06:42:25 PM
This should solve the problem:

But, but, defund the police.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on November 08, 2021, 08:59:01 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbBoHj9R0Lc
Apparently over the weekend, some were claiming sabotage by disgruntled people who left the set.  Mr H points out that if the armorer was doing her job, that would not have mattered.

Yeah, she's kinda screwed.  The only defense she may have is if Production directed her to not be present on set due to misguided COVID precautions.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on November 08, 2021, 09:18:34 PM
Yeah, she's kinda screwed.  The only defense she may have is if Production directed her to not be present on set due to misguided COVID precautions.
To be honest, I think she should be held accountable as far as liability on the tort side.  She didn't point the gun at anyone.  I don't even know if she was there when the shot was fired.  She just sucks at her job.  I don't know where her liability ends on the criminal side.

That said, this is a real murky situation on the criminal side.  I am not even sure what would happen if this just occurred at someone's BBQ.  I bet there is precedent.  Just because someone hands you a gun and tells you it is unloaded, does that mean you should immediately aim at someone and pull the trigger?  There are probably similar "gun store" stories.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on November 10, 2021, 09:26:51 AM
^
That's why I said in Reply # 243:

"I trust she has at least some of this in writing.  There's nothing like keeping a "Pearl Harbor File."  Or having witnesses to the objections.

I still, personally, lay 99 point four more nines percent of the blame on the party who cocked the gun, allowed it to be pointed at a person, and pulled the trigger.

I suspect that ammunition can actually tiptoe around, hiding in small dark places, until it finds a suitable chamber to slip into and rest until awakened.

And I've often said you never point a gun anywhere you can't fix the hole."

Terry, 230RN
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on November 10, 2021, 10:14:58 AM
I was thinking there were also "gun show" stories of someone slipping live ammo into display guns, but I don't remember if those were real or just stories.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on November 10, 2021, 10:57:47 AM
I was thinking there were also "gun show" stories of someone slipping live ammo into display guns, but I don't remember if those were real or just stories.

Was at a gun show where one went off and I remember hearing those stories too. Sometimes I wonder if there is any truth to those stories but also wonder if most if not all similar incidences were the result of dealer error and the dealer spun those stories to cover their a.   
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on November 10, 2021, 11:08:18 AM
Oh, the "red herring" and "false flag" concepts WRT planted live ammo have probably been floating around in the backs of  peoples' minds since the start.

Trouble is, crap like that is (a) hard to prove and (b) cited as "paranoia," sometimes by the perpetrators themselves.

That last (b) usually shuts down discussion about ulterior motives since nobody wants to be called paranoid.

Well, I always figured two "negative" things were actual survival traits:  Paranoia and Xenophobia.

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on November 15, 2021, 03:09:49 PM
Enter Very Very Special Agent Richard Beazit

ATF tries to help Alec Baldwin avoid murder charges
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9Q3lheohiA
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on November 18, 2021, 10:44:01 AM
A second crew member has filed suit against Alec Baldwin, claiming he was negligent.  The crew member claims no shots were to be fired in the scene they were preparing to film inside the church set.  If true, that would seem to indicate that Baldwin was just screwing around with the gun when he killed Halyna Hutchins.

https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2021/11/17/2nd-rust-crew-member-sues-alec-baldwin-he-did-not-check-the-gun-himself-no-firing-in-upcoming-scene/ (https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2021/11/17/2nd-rust-crew-member-sues-alec-baldwin-he-did-not-check-the-gun-himself-no-firing-in-upcoming-scene/)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Fly320s on November 18, 2021, 08:44:06 PM
Why is she suing?  What is her standing?  Was she harmed when Baldwin shot?  Or is she suing because the filming was stopped?

The answer to all those questions, and more, is money. She just wants money.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on November 18, 2021, 08:45:49 PM
Why is she suing?  What is her standing?  Was she harmed when Baldwin shot?  Or is she suing because the filming was stopped?

The answer to all those questions, and more, is money. She just wants money.

Probably something along the lines of her contracting PTSD from someone else using a firearm.  Mental anguish, hurt feelings, whatever.
I suspect you are right that she is just hoping to cash in on Baldwin's stupidity.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on November 19, 2021, 11:51:47 AM
Probably something along the lines of her contracting PTSD from someone else using a firearm.  Mental anguish, hurt feelings, whatever.
I suspect you are right that she is just hoping to cash in on Baldwin's stupidity.

I wouldn't mind hearing about a bevy of suits against the trigger-puller on this basis from everyone involved.

As I said, he cocked the gun, he pointed it at a person, he pulled the trigger, he put holes in two people.

Who cocked the gun, who pointed it at a person, who pulled the trigger, who put holes in two people?

Alec Baldwin.

That's who.

 

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on November 19, 2021, 12:13:32 PM
Why is she suing?  What is her standing?  Was she harmed when Baldwin shot?  Or is she suing because the filming was stopped?

The answer to all those questions, and more, is money. She just wants money.

Sometimes whomever sues first, is protection against liability later.

She probably wrote the scene and could see Baldwin coming after her for "forcing him" to be in a situation where he has to shoot a gun at a manned camera.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Bogie on November 19, 2021, 12:14:49 PM
Tales from the Table...
 
Why does it seem like many "non-gun" people, when handed a firearm, immediately point it at someone and quite often pull the trigger?
 
"No, you can't pick up that rifle yet - Why do you want to see it?"
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on November 19, 2021, 12:26:25 PM
Tales from the Table...
 
Why does it seem like many "non-gun" people, when handed a firearm, immediately point it at someone and quite often pull the trigger?
 
"No, you can't pick up that rifle yet - Why do you want to see it?"

It seems that way?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on November 19, 2021, 02:26:22 PM
Why is she suing?  What is her standing?  Was she harmed when Baldwin shot?  Or is she suing because the filming was stopped?

The answer to all those questions, and more, is money. She just wants money.

The simplest answer is she just wants money.  But her standing IMHO is his unsafe gun handling both as the shooter, and as the producer who had an unsafe set, endangered everyone there.  Also PTSD from seeing a coworker killed.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 19, 2021, 10:07:28 PM
Tales from the Table...
 
Why does it seem like many "non-gun" people, when handed a firearm, immediately point it at someone and quite often pull the trigger?
 
"No, you can't pick up that rifle yet - Why do you want to see it?"


(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fhoneymoneygazette.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F11%2FIMG_7355-19JI8f.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: JTHunter on November 19, 2021, 10:26:25 PM
Perd - where are the sights on that gun??
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 19, 2021, 10:29:32 PM
Perd - where are the sights on that gun??

The jury was pretty close, so he didn't need any.  =)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Fly320s on November 20, 2021, 08:54:40 AM
Perd - where are the sights on that gun??

Someone said the optic wouldn't fit in the evidence box, so it was taken off.  It is probably on some cop's rifle now.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on November 20, 2021, 09:02:50 AM
Yeah, it had what appeared to be a Sightmark red dot on it when Rittenhouse had it.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: gunsmith on November 20, 2021, 09:08:20 AM
Tales from the Table...
 
Why does it seem like many "non-gun" people, when handed a firearm, immediately point it at someone and quite often pull the trigger?
 
"No, you can't pick up that rifle yet - Why do you want to see it?"
SO TRUE!!!
 Hopefully this will be used in court, some kids out there will be safer if the "alecs and tv liberals" are forced to confront this!
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on December 01, 2021, 05:08:21 PM
"The trigger wasn't pulled."

https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2021/12/01/alec-baldwin-tells-george-stephanopoulos-that-not-only-didnt-he-pull-the-trigger-the-trigger-wasnt-pulled/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on December 01, 2021, 05:11:55 PM
A red SUV did it.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on December 01, 2021, 05:16:57 PM
If the hammer was cocked back, it doesn't take much pressure on the trigger.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on December 01, 2021, 05:48:02 PM
If the hammer was cocked back, it doesn't take much pressure on the trigger.

Unless something is broke you still need to pull the trigger. I worked on the trigger pull on my SAA but you still know you pulled it.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 01, 2021, 06:32:35 PM
"The trigger wasn't pulled."

https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2021/12/01/alec-baldwin-tells-george-stephanopoulos-that-not-only-didnt-he-pull-the-trigger-the-trigger-wasnt-pulled/

"BS"
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 01, 2021, 06:43:59 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/alec-baldwin-says-did-not-pull-trigger-rust-shooting

Quote
"The trigger wasn’t pulled. I didn’t pull the trigger," Baldwin told George Stephanopoulos.

He adds: "No, no, no, no, I would never point a gun at anyone and pull the trigger. Never."

In earlier movies, Baldwin has exhibited frighteningly poor trigger finger discipline. He may not think he pulled the trigger, but a Colt 1873 has a much shorter trigger stroke than a double action, and much lighter. Someone who automatically puts their finger on the trigger when they pick up or point a gun could VERY easily pop off a round without intending to.

If that's what happened, it's not "an accident." It's negligence. Since it killed one person and wounded another, it's (IMHO) criminal negligence.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on December 01, 2021, 06:51:20 PM
Unless something is broke you still need to pull the trigger. I worked on the trigger pull on my SAA but you still know you pulled it.
I agree with you, but someone like Baldwin might convince himself he didn't. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 01, 2021, 06:53:11 PM
Even if broke he would still would have to had to pull back the hammer. Why would he pull back the hammer unless he intended to fire?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on December 01, 2021, 06:55:33 PM
I'm too lazy to look at IMDB. Has Baldwin done westerns before, where he would have handled a single action revolver? Or is part of what he is dong here, possibly with legal consult, setting himself up to claim to know nothing about the firearm type so the firearms people can take the blame for not training him properly?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: griz on December 01, 2021, 07:43:34 PM
The more examples we have of anti-gunners ideas of how guns work, the more it seems that when they demand "smart guns" they mean a gun that will read your mind.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Fly320s on December 01, 2021, 07:45:42 PM
I'm too lazy to look at IMDB. Has Baldwin done westerns before, where he would have handled a single action revolver? Or is part of what he is dong here, possibly with legal consult, setting himself up to claim to know nothing about the firearm type so the firearms people can take the blame for not training him properly?

It is my opinion that Baldwin could not be bothered to learn the finer points of gun handling and safety.  I bet he was "above" that level of instruction.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 01, 2021, 09:18:21 PM
I'm too lazy to look at IMDB. Has Baldwin done westerns before, where he would have handled a single action revolver? Or is part of what he is dong here, possibly with legal consult, setting himself up to claim to know nothing about the firearm type so the firearms people can take the blame for not training him properly?

Don't know about any of his other movies. The only other one I've seen him in was The Hunt for Red October. Toward the end, there's a scene in which he crawls along an overhead electrical cable tray to confront the saboteur who is about to blow up the ship. He is carrying an M1911A1, and as he crawls along the cable tray -- with no target in sight -- his finger is on the trigger.

@ 00:14   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kaBIMuW74Q

Of course, that movie was a long time ago. He could have learned better trigger discipline since then -- but he's such an arrogant dolt that I doubt he has done so. Old habits are hard to break.


One of the rookie armorer's complaints has been that the production team (headed by Baldwin) rejected her requests for more training time. This could come down to a classic "He said" -- "She said" standoff.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on December 02, 2021, 09:20:13 AM
I'm thinking the rich and powerful on that set are setting things up for a pawn (likely the armorer) to take a fall.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/12/02/guns-dont-just-go-off-santa-fe-county-sheriff-questions-alec-baldwins-account-of-the-rust-shooting/

Now Halls also has said the trigger wasn't pulled, and they are bringing up "the hammer was pulled back", maybe to make it sound like it was placed on the cart that way. Which should make no difference since both Hall and Baldwin should have seen that. Unless they are playing the "I'm just the actor, it's not my responsibility" card.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: lee n. field on December 02, 2021, 09:45:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_x6QmuJdms (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_x6QmuJdms)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on December 02, 2021, 09:55:39 AM
Just for covering both sides in the "didn't pull the trigger" discussion:

Quote
Stephen Gutowski
@StephenGutowski
As some in the mentions have pointed out, Pietta still makes replicas without transfer bars. I certainly hope they weren't using a gun like that on set. But, it does increase the chances of the gun firing without the trigger being pulled. I still find it unlikely.

I guess also this:

https://youtu.be/ldHPNnsp-cs?t=141

The Hikock45 video has me wondering if the actors aying "hammer back" meant that the hammer was in the half cock position?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on December 03, 2021, 08:32:52 AM
I just saw a snippet of Baldwins interview. I tried searching for the video clip but couldn't find the part of the clip Fox Business showed this morning. All the other clips stopped just before he said:

Quote
I pulled the hammer back as far as I could without cocking it, I asked her "does that work? Does that work? She said yes, I let go of the hammer and bang!

He also holds himself blameless for the incident. Given the Hikock45 clip I posted above, and that some Piettas apparently are made without a transfer bar, this might be an interesting quote going forward.

Here's one video where he holds himself blameless:

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/12/03/narcissistic-sociopath-alec-baldwin-says-he-feels-no-guilt-over-the-death-of-halyna-hutchins-a/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 03, 2021, 08:41:44 AM
I just saw a snippet of Baldwins interview. I tried searching for the video clip but couldn't find the part of the clip Fox Business showed this morning. All the other clips stopped just before he said:

Quote
I pulled the hammer back as far as I could without cocking it, I asked her "does that work? Does that work? She said yes, I let go of the hammer and bang!

He also holds himself blameless for the incident. Given the Hikock45 clip I posted above, and that some Piettas apparently are made without a transfer bar, this might be an interesting quote going forward.

Considering how short the trigger pull is on a SAA, if he had his finger in the trigger window, he had the trigger pulled when he cocked the hammer. So, when he released the hammer -- it fell, discharging the round.

So, what I've said all along: he cocked the hammer, and he pulled the trigger. As producer, he's one of the people who [allegedly] nixed the armorer chic's request to conduct firearms safety training. Although, given Baldwin's arrogance and inflated sense of self-importance, if she had been allowed to conduct [more?] training, I'm sure he either would have exempted himself or he would have yawned his way through it and not paid any attention.

My opinion remains unchanged: negligent discharge ==> person dies ==> negligent homicide.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 03, 2021, 08:45:52 AM
Wouldn't be surprised there's video of this they're hiding and/or destroyed. Not saying there is just that I wouldn't be surprised.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on December 03, 2021, 08:46:00 AM
The reload has a good explanation that suggests the probability is a finger on the trigger:

https://thereload.com/analysis-yes-alec-baldwins-gun-could-have-fired-without-him-pulling-the-trigger/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 03, 2021, 09:03:29 AM
He also holds himself blameless for the incident.


Yep

Quote
Baldwin told George Stephanopoulos that he felt no guilt over the death of “Rust” cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and it’s not his fault:

    .@GStephanopoulos: "Do you feel guilt?"

    Alec Baldwin: “No. Someone is responsible for what happened and I can’t say who that is, but I know it’s not me.”

    READ MORE: https://t.co/zYugqKhIVW #BaldwinABC pic.twitter.com/97F9wOYYTT

    — ABC News (@ABC) December 3, 2021
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/12/03/narcissistic-sociopath-alec-baldwin-says-he-feels-no-guilt-over-the-death-of-halyna-hutchins-a/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Boomhauer on December 03, 2021, 09:08:06 AM
Nothing in this goddamn country is the person who did it’s fault. It’s ALWAYS somebody else’s fault for anything and everything. I’m sick of that attitude that infects everything.

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 03, 2021, 09:14:56 AM
Even if the gun "malfunctioned" there's still the base issues of how did live ammo find it way into the gun, why were the required checks not preformed, and why was live ammo even allowed on the set in the first place? There is abundant evidence of a lack of firearm safety by several parties, including Baldwin, on set and Baldwin as producer bears at least some responsibility for that.

Murphy will often find a way but don't make things easy for him.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on December 03, 2021, 09:22:41 AM
This morning I heard someone mention that there is ammo used on set that is supposed to be blank ammo, but looks like real ammo when the camera looks at the gun from the front.  Someone on the stream I was listening to said they weren't supposed to have primers.  That gets into people guessing about what happened, but it was an interesting adder.  The main comment of that stream was there appeared to be no reason for the gun to be pointed at anyone. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: cordex on December 03, 2021, 09:26:38 AM
Even if the gun "malfunctioned" there's still the base issues of why was live ammo even allowed on the set in the first place, how did live ammo find it way into the gun, and why were the required checks not preformed? There is abundance evidence of a lack firearm safety by several parties, including Baldwin, on set and Baldwin as producer bears at least some responsibility for that.
This.

It was the armorer's job to ensure the guns were safe for the necessary scenes.  Sometimes scenes require a gun to be pointed at someone, or the camera (as appears to be the case here).  There are apparently other layers of checks that were also neglected, but ultimately the armorer was the "expert" and in charge of the guns.  For some unfathomable reason, live ammo was allowed on the set and somehow got into the guns.  Positive control was not maintained by the armorer, live ammo got into the gun, and she did not inspect it prior to its use in the scene.  All on her.

That said, it also looks like an incompetent armorer was hired.  Whoever made that call (likely Baldwin?) shares the blame as far as that goes.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 03, 2021, 03:27:13 PM
This morning I heard someone mention that there is ammo used on set that is supposed to be blank ammo, but looks like real ammo when the camera looks at the gun from the front.  Someone on the stream I was listening to said they weren't supposed to have primers.  That gets into people guessing about what happened, but it was an interesting adder.  The main comment of that stream was there appeared to be no reason for the gun to be pointed at anyone.

That's a misunderstanding. The dummy rounds are not "blanks," they are dummy rounds. They are loaded with a bullet, but no powder charge, and they are supposed to have a hole drilled in the case and a BB inside so that, when shaken, anyone can hear the BB and know that it's a dummy round.

I don't know if Hollywood dummy rounds have primers but my guess would be not. Even if they do, the primer alone probably wouldn't fire a 255-grain bullet with enough force to shoot THROUGH one person and seriously wound a person standing behind her.

From what I've read about movie set gun safety, there are (among others) two safety rules that had to be violated here:
[/list]
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on December 03, 2021, 03:45:42 PM
Hawlmoon noted significantly:

"Considering how short the trigger pull is on a SAA, if he had his finger in the trigger window, he had the trigger pulled when he cocked the hammer. So, when he released the hammer -- it fell, discharging the round."

This trigger-not-pulled thing is called Brasping at Straws.  BS for short.

And he was not pointing the gun at anyone; the wind blew the muzzle toward the victims.

Hell, any nonsense a lawyer can throw at the jury for POC ("Purposes Of Confusion") is a good strategy,

Right?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Brad Johnson on December 03, 2021, 05:59:19 PM
There's a reason why you only carry five rounds in a Peacemaker and a non-transfer bar clone. Especially ones with a worn sear. I could easily see a cheapo knock-off, one made with softer metals and used as a movie prop that's been cycled a billion times, having a sear that's pretty much worn almost smooth.

That, or he had his finger on the damn trigger. Likely he didn't consciously pull it because he didn't have to, it was already in firing position from the piss-poor way he was holding it. All thumbing the hammer back did was complete the process.

Brad
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on December 03, 2021, 06:06:25 PM
Wondering if he had been practicing fanning. The hammer would already be pulled.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 03, 2021, 08:02:21 PM
The reload has a good explanation that suggests the probability is a finger on the trigger:

https://thereload.com/analysis-yes-alec-baldwins-gun-could-have-fired-without-him-pulling-the-trigger/

Another expert agrees:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZdXGX61pao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGZ_wDNRYQs
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 03, 2021, 08:06:11 PM
There's a reason why you only carry five rounds in a Peacemaker and a non-transfer bar clone. Especially ones with a worn sear. I could easily see a cheapo knock-off, one made with softer metals and used as a movie prop that's been cycled a billion times, having a sear that's pretty much worn almost smooth.

The gun involved has been reported by multiple sources as being a Pietta 1873 clone. Over the years I have owned three of them. I'm sure not everyone will agree but, in general, I rate them as being AT LEAST as good in terms of metallurgy, fit, and finish as an authentic Colt SAA of the late 1800s.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on December 03, 2021, 10:09:47 PM

From what I've read about movie set gun safety, there are (among others) two safety rules that had to be violated here:
  • NEVER point a gun AT another person -- point it just off target so that, if there is an unintended discharge, the bullet won't strike the person
  • When the script calls for a gun to be pointed at the camera, the camera is supposed to be behind a bullet-proof shield

The problem with someone like Alec Baldwin, is it doesn't matter what he says he was or wasn't pointing the gun at.

The man is incompetent in weapons handling, so his perception of pointing is different than the reality of pointing.

Much like anyone who starts shooting pistols, you may WANT the bullet to go in the middle of the bullseye, but it's not going there unless you do everything correctly.  And you never do everything correctly.

A nitwit gun illiterate like him is NOT doing everything correctly, so aiming "slightly away from the camera" doesn't mean sh!t if his trigger press is so sloppy that it yanks the gun back towards the camera a good 10 degrees due to sh!t technique.

Doesn't matter if he didn't MEAN to have sh!t technique or didn't THINK he had sh!t technique.  The only reality that matters is the 800fps trajectory of that hunk of lead that his actions ignited and sent downrange.

As for "he didn't pull the trigger..." I just don't care.  SAA's don't discharge without significant human effort.  You thumb that hammer, you're in charge of it.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 04, 2021, 02:13:47 AM
The problem with someone like Alec Baldwin, is it doesn't matter what he says he was or wasn't pointing the gun at.

The man is incompetent in weapons handling, so his perception of pointing is different than the reality of pointing.

Much like anyone who starts shooting pistols, you may WANT the bullet to go in the middle of the bullseye, but it's not going there unless you do everything correctly.  And you never do everything correctly.

A nitwit gun illiterate like him is NOT doing everything correctly, so aiming "slightly away from the camera" doesn't mean sh!t if his trigger press is so sloppy that it yanks the gun back towards the camera a good 10 degrees due to sh!t technique.

Doesn't matter if he didn't MEAN to have sh!t technique or didn't THINK he had sh!t technique.  The only reality that matters is the 800fps trajectory of that hunk of lead that his actions ignited and sent downrange.

As for "he didn't pull the trigger..." I just don't care.  SAA's don't discharge without significant human effort.  You thumb that hammer, you're in charge of it.

^^^

You're preaching to the choir, at least as far as I'm concerned. IMHO, he owns that bullet.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on December 04, 2021, 08:04:27 AM
Interesting perspective from George Clooney, who I never thought of as a gun guy, or having a familiarity with guns, and then Baldwin's response. In fairness to Baldwin, I expect a lot more actors are on his side of the argument than on Clooney's, though I applaud Clooney's methodology. Note that Baldwin's response suggests he has (in his mind) a better than average familiarity with firearms on sets.

Quote
"How do you respond to actors like George Clooney who say that every time they were handed a gun, they checked it themselves?" the news anchor asked.

"Well, there were a lot of people who felt it necessary to contribute some comment to the situation, which really didn't help the situation," Baldwin said. "At all."

ALEC BALDWIN 'RUST' SHOOTING INTERVIEW: FIVE MOST SHOCKING REVELATIONS

"If your protocol is you check the gun every time, well, good for you. I've probably handled weapons as much as any other actor in films with an average career. Again, shooting or being shot by someone," he continued. "And in that time, I had a protocol and it never let me down."

Clooney said on the podcast "WTF with Marc Maron" that he always personally checks a weapon after someone hands it to him on a set.

"I've been on sets for 40 years and the person that hands you the gun, the person that is responsible for the gun is either the prop or the armorer, period," Clooney reflected. "Now every single time I'm handed a gun on the set, every time they hand me a gun I look at it, I open it. I show it to the person I'm pointing it to, I show it to the crew. Every single take you had to back to the armorer when you're done… You do it again and part of it is because of what happened to Brandon [Lee], everyone does it. Everybody knows and maybe Alec did that, hopefully he did do that."

A rep for Clooney did not immediately return Fox News' request for comment.

Baldwin explained that when he was a young actor a prop person told him not to manipulate a weapon before a scene.

"The prop person said, 'Don't do that,' when I was young," he explained. "And they'd say, 'One thing you would need to understand is we don't want the actor to be the last line of defense against any catastrophic breach of safety with the gun. My job is to make sure the gun is safe and then I hand you the gun and I declare the gun is safe. The crew is not relying on you to say that it's safe. They're relying on me to say that it's safe.'"

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/alec-baldwin-reacts-george-clooney-comments-gun-safety-rust-shooting
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 04, 2021, 11:48:21 AM
Quote
Clooney said on the podcast "WTF with Marc Maron" that he always personally checks a weapon after someone hands it to him on a set.

"I've been on sets for 40 years and the person that hands you the gun, the person that is responsible for the gun is either the prop or the armorer, period," Clooney reflected. "Now every single time I'm handed a gun on the set, every time they hand me a gun I look at it, I open it. I show it to the person I'm pointing it to, I show it to the crew. Every single take you had to back to the armorer when you're done… You do it again and part of it is because of what happened to Brandon [Lee], everyone does it. Everybody knows and maybe Alec did that, hopefully he did do that."

This matches up with what every professional prop master or cinema armorer I've seen interviewed has said. Every ... single ... one.


Quote
Baldwin explained that when he was a young actor a prop person told him not to manipulate a weapon before a scene.

"The prop person said, 'Don't do that,' when I was young," he explained. "And they'd say, 'One thing you would need to understand is we don't want the actor to be the last line of defense against any catastrophic breach of safety with the gun. My job is to make sure the gun is safe and then I hand you the gun and I declare the gun is safe. The crew is not relying on you to say that it's safe. They're relying on me to say that it's safe.'"

I very much doubt this. It is possible that some prop person once told him that, but I can't believe that over the subsequent course of his career nobody has ever told him that's not the way it works. The reality is that gun safety on a Hollywood set, just like gun safety in the real world, relies on a protocol of overlapping, redundant safety rules that are there so that if one rule gets broken, the others still prevent someone getting shot or killed. One of those rules is exactly what Clooney described -- I've heard professional prop masters and armorers say the same thing. Before a scene involving a firearm, the firearm is brought out onto the set by the armorer. The armorer shows the actor and the crew that the gun is clear. The actor verifies that the gun is clear, and any crew member who wants to is also allowed to inspect the gun to verify that it's clear. The armorer then shows the rounds before they are loaded. If they're dummy rounds, the armorer and the actor shake each round so the BB inside can be heard rattling around, verifying that they are dummies. If they are blanks, they'll have a crimped nose rather than a bullet. The armorer then loads the gun, declares it a "Hot" gun, and hands it to the actor.

Apparently, "Rust" was a low budget film that was running late, so they didn't follow the industry standard protocols. Baldwin was the producer (or one of the producers). That makes him ultimately responsible for safety on the set.

My understanding is that those gun safety protocols are written into industry standard contracts.

As for Baldwin:

Quote
ALEC BALDWIN 'RUST' SHOOTING INTERVIEW: FIVE MOST SHOCKING REVELATIONS

"If your protocol is you check the gun every time, well, good for you. I've probably handled weapons as much as any other actor in films with an average career. Again, shooting or being shot by someone," he continued. "And in that time, I had a protocol and it never let me down."

Correction: It never let you down until it let you down. And when it finally let you down, it did so with disastrous consequences.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: gunsmith on December 04, 2021, 02:13:08 PM
The problem with someone like Alec Baldwin, is it doesn't matter what he says he was or wasn't pointing the gun at.

The man is incompetent in weapons handling, so his perception of pointing is different than the reality of pointing.

Much like anyone who starts shooting pistols, you may WANT the bullet to go in the middle of the bullseye, but it's not going there unless you do everything correctly.  And you never do everything correctly.

A nitwit gun illiterate like him is NOT doing everything correctly, so aiming "slightly away from the camera" doesn't mean sh!t if his trigger press is so sloppy that it yanks the gun back towards the camera a good 10 degrees due to sh!t technique.

Doesn't matter if he didn't MEAN to have sh!t technique or didn't THINK he had sh!t technique.  The only reality that matters is the 800fps trajectory of that hunk of lead that his actions ignited and sent downrange.

As for "he didn't pull the trigger..." I just don't care.  SAA's don't discharge without significant human effort.  You thumb that hammer, you're in charge of it.

 that is the best summary of what probably happened on the internet
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 06, 2021, 04:33:32 PM
Baldwin deleted his primary twitter account. Rumors charges could be/maybe coming.

Alec Baldwin Deletes His Twitter Account Days After Shock ABC Interview
https://deadline.com/2021/12/alec-baldwin-deletes-his-twitter-account-days-after-shock-abc-interview-1234885348/

Alec Baldwin On The Run! Deletes Twitter (Evidence) After Disasterous TV Interview! Charges Pending
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzJaPXyM9oo

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on December 06, 2021, 04:53:33 PM

As for Baldwin:

Correction: It never let you down until it let you down. And when it finally let you down, it did so with disastrous consequences.
Yeah, that is the thing about safety procedures, you can get away with short cuts for a quite some time.  It takes a combination of failures for an incident to occur, but if you take shortcuts that combination eventually does come around. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Fly320s on December 06, 2021, 04:54:53 PM
Yeah, that is the thing about safety procedures, you can get away with short cuts for a quite some time.  It takes a combination of failures for an incident to occur, but if you take shortcuts that combination eventually does come around.

Swiss cheese model.

As long as the holes don't line up, everything is fine.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 06, 2021, 07:00:16 PM
I am having a great deal of difficulty wrapping my head around the fact on some of the "gun" forums, there are actually people who are defending Baldwin, and arguing that he bears zero responsibility for the woman's death.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on December 06, 2021, 07:36:22 PM
They may be thinking in terms of whomever and however the live round got in the gun without realizing (as has been pointed out several times) that there are overlapping safety rules, and in this case Baldwin must take responsiblity for handling the somehow-loaded gun in an unsafe manner.

Inexpertise, misplaced trust in the armorer, "magic," or whatever, he pointed the gun where he couldn't fix the hole (or holes) while playing with it and should have known better.

If the armorer competently checked the gun then someone had to place live rounds in it at some point after that, and there were live rounds involved in the "target practice."

I'd be interested in knowing about gun safety rules in their contracts, as Hawkmoon mentioned previously:

"My understanding is that those gun safety protocols are written into industry standard contracts."

Terry, 230RN
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on December 06, 2021, 08:05:44 PM
I am having a great deal of difficulty wrapping my head around the fact on some of the "gun" forums, there are actually people who are defending Baldwin, and arguing that he bears zero responsibility for the woman's death.

You might can defend Baldwin the actor but doing so just shifts that portion the blame to Baldwin the director, who already bears much of the blame.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: cordex on December 06, 2021, 09:31:34 PM
You might can defend Baldwin the actor but doing so just shifts that portion the blame to Baldwin the director, who already bears much of the blame.
Yeah. Or producer maybe?

Regardless, I am not defending Alec, I simply don’t believe actors in general are competent enough to trust with a grilled cheese, much less a gun. If your safety regime uses them as a critical component then you are hosed. The presumption must be that they are utterly incompetent as well as maliciously dangerous and they still must not be able to hurt anyone.  That is why you hire experts who are able to maintain safety. Actors also shouldn’t be responsible for checking the rigging of wires for stunts, or the safety of the lighting fixtures because they are idiots as far as those things go.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on December 06, 2021, 09:46:16 PM
I meant producer.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AmbulanceDriver on December 07, 2021, 12:15:30 AM
This is exactly why I teach my daughters that *EVERY* time you pick up the gun, even if you just checked it a minute ago, if the chamber is closed, you check it again.  My oldest is 7, so I joked with her about the "Magic Bullet Fairies". That "if you put the gun down, with the action closed, and turn your back, the Magic Bullet Fairy may have put a bullet in the gun while you weren't looking.   So you check it again. "  Those overlapping layers of defense, those good habits that help keep everyone safe.  Yeah, I put it in a silly way for her, but it's those good habits that keep everyone safe.  It needs to be automatic, ingrained.  Just the other day I was at my LGS looking at a couple of handguns (had heard they'd gotten a Keltec P50 and wanted to handle it).  Clerk takes the gun down from the wall, checks the chamber, hands it to me with the chamber closed.  I automatically recheck the chamber.  Because if he messed up and missed something, I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE [UNPRINTABLE] GUN IS IN MY [CENSORED] PAW!
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Regolith on December 07, 2021, 01:20:10 AM
Yeah. Or producer maybe?

Regardless, I am not defending Alec, I simply don’t believe actors in general are competent enough to trust with a grilled cheese, much less a gun. If your safety regime uses them as a critical component then you are hosed. The presumption must be that they are utterly incompetent as well as maliciously dangerous and they still must not be able to hurt anyone.  That is why you hire experts who are able to maintain safety. Actors also shouldn’t be responsible for checking the rigging of wires for stunts, or the safety of the lighting fixtures because they are idiots as far as those things go.

The rules of firearm safety are so simple you can teach them to a child. If an actor can't muster up the intelligence and maturity of a child, perhaps they should only ever be given dummy props.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on December 07, 2021, 03:34:02 AM
230RN said:

"I suspect that ammunition can actually tiptoe around, hiding in small dark places, until it finds a suitable chamber to slip into and rest until awakened."

Ambulance Driver said:

"My oldest is 7, so I joked with her about the 'Magic Bullet Fairies'. That if you put the gun down, with the action closed, and turn your back, the Magic Bullet Fairy may have put a bullet in the gun while you weren't looking.   So you check it again. "

That explains it a hell of a lot better !

Thanks !

=D

Terry
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 07, 2021, 07:56:40 AM
This is exactly why I teach my daughters that *EVERY* time you pick up the gun, even if you just checked it a minute ago, if the chamber is closed, you check it again.  My oldest is 7, so I joked with her about the "Magic Bullet Fairies". That "if you put the gun down, with the action closed, and turn your back, the Magic Bullet Fairy may have put a bullet in the gun while you weren't looking.   So you check it again. " 

That's almost verbatim what I teach students in my NRA classes, but I call them "the elves," rather than Magic Bullet Fairies.

It's a bit anal but, if it saves one cinematographer ...

There seems to be an argument raging over whether Baldwin should have checked the gun when it was handed to him. Multiple Hollywood prop masters and armorers have been interviewed on YouTube and, surprise, surprise, their explanations of industry "standard" protocols don't agree. Supposedly the Screen Actors Guild has standards written into their collective bargaining agreement, but nobody has yet (as far as I've seen) published the actual language.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on December 07, 2021, 09:01:01 AM
I don't understand anyone saying Baldwin bear zeros responsibility.  I can see saying he shouldn't get a murder charge since he apparently did not do it intentionally, but manslaughter or some lesser charge is certainly a possibility since he is the one who held the gun and pointed it at the deceased.  That is why I think the actor should take some responsibility for gun safety on the set.  They are the ones holding the gun and and pulling the trigger.  Blind trust in some "expert" is a recipe for more injuries. 

The parallel is if someone is hanging out at a friends house and a person hands them a gun saying "don't worry, it isn't loaded", what will happen if that person points the gun at someone and fired off a shot? 

Preaching to the choir here I guess.  I like the "magic bullet fairies" idea. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on December 07, 2021, 09:10:17 AM
You know, I was thinking - celebrities are always screaming about "No one should be able to own a gun without rigorous firearms training."

Maybe what Hollywood needs to do is to require that any actor who needs a prop gun in a role, even just a background actor in a Western walking by with a holstered .45, is required to take a minimum 24 hour certification course, class + range time, from a reputable training organization. No training cert, no roles involving firearms. You know, kinda like the, "You need a license to drive a car" argument that liberals make.

Heck, if nothing else, it might educate some of these knuckleheads about firearms, so we can eliminate some of the chainsaw AR crap.

I'd be interested to know how Keanu Reeves and Halle Berry handle firearms on set after the training they had for the Wick movies.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: fifth_column on December 07, 2021, 10:06:27 AM
I am having a great deal of difficulty wrapping my head around the fact on some of the "gun" forums, there are actually people who are defending Baldwin, and arguing that he bears zero responsibility for the woman's death.

Probably shills hired by his publicity team.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: griz on December 07, 2021, 10:12:45 AM
That's a pretty good idea.  Maybe make them get a carry permit before even handling any real gun.  Training, fingerprints, background check, the whole process.  As Hawkmoon said, "if it saves just one cinematographer".
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on December 07, 2021, 06:19:41 PM
I saw a parody today that had this video then switched over to Baldwin saying he wasn't responsible.  It was played on someone's livestream and I couldn't see who had it. 

I Take Responsibility
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhbydhzQUzU

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on December 07, 2021, 08:54:01 PM
You know, I was thinking - celebrities are always screaming about "No one should be able to own a gun without rigorous firearms training."

Maybe what Hollywood needs to do is to require that any actor who needs a prop gun in a role, even just a background actor in a Western walking by with a holstered .45, is required to take a minimum 24 hour certification course, class + range time, from a reputable training organization. No training cert, no roles involving firearms. You know, kinda like the, "You need a license to drive a car" argument that liberals make.

Heck, if nothing else, it might educate some of these knuckleheads about firearms, so we can eliminate some of the chainsaw AR crap.

I'd be interested to know how Keanu Reeves and Halle Berry handle firearms on set after the training they had for the Wick movies.

I'm still awaiting someone to explain why the extra speshul magic of being a bone-afied genyou-ine hollywood actor absolves you of what happens when you point at gun at something and pull the trigger.

I understand that the act of filming a fictional/dramatic story requires the suspension of conventions like assault with a deadly weapon.  Pointing a weapon at another actor or towards the camera is a requisite for the scene.  Even discharging blanks in the general direction of peers.

If it were a wax round, or a fragment off a blank's crimp, that'd be one thing.  It's still negligent homicide, but it's not a real round.  I don't think I can fault an actor for a plugged barrel and a wax lump discharged by a blank.  That's a bad weapons master, not a bad actor. 

A live round though, is dumbshit gun safety 101.

And it seems to me if you're going to make BIG MONEY filming hollywood shoot-em-ups, you need to PERSONALLY be better than dumbshit gun safety 101.  You, the dumbshit with the Colt SAA in your hands and stetson on your head, probably the single easiest firearm to check for safety out there, other than a single-shot breechloading long gun.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Bogie on December 07, 2021, 11:27:25 PM
Alec Baldwin could have never done this.
 
Up until a few weeks ago, he would have told you that he NEVER makes mistakes, because he is one of the World's Smartest People.
 
Therefore...
 
He has been possessed by an alien lifeform. That is the only reasonable explanation.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 07, 2021, 11:54:26 PM
Ted Kennedy's car Alec Baldwin's revolver has killed more people than my AR-15.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 09, 2021, 11:51:33 AM

Up until a few weeks ago, he would have told you that he NEVER makes mistakes, because he is one of the World's Smartest People.
 

He's still telling us he didn't make a mistake. He only pointed the gun and fired it. The fact that the gun HE aimed and HE fired happened to kill one person and wound a second person is somebody else's fault. Whose fault? He doesn't know and he doesn't care. It wasn't HIS fault ... end of discussion.

And there are still people on The Firing Line defending him. I find that to be disappointing.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on December 09, 2021, 12:59:50 PM
^ And there are still people on The Firing Line defending him. I find that to be disappointing."

Possibly people who've had NDs that put holes in valuable things?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 09, 2021, 01:09:12 PM
^ And there are still people on The Firing Line defending him. I find that to be disappointing."

Possibly people who've had NDs that put holes in valuable things?

*cough*



 :P
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MillCreek on December 09, 2021, 02:36:20 PM
*cough*



 :P

I'm sorry, did we see your hand twitch a bit there?







Or too soon?  :cool:
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 09, 2021, 02:40:52 PM
The day I can't laugh about it is the day I check into the funny farm.
Stupid should hurt and it did.

I'm just more upset that my commutation finger is still not in full operation.  :P
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 09, 2021, 03:17:36 PM
I didn't put the trigger    :P
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on December 09, 2021, 03:22:29 PM
Today, I am hearing two things:  1) someone said Baldwin didn't pull the trigger, but did pull the hammer back, but not far enough to lock, then perhaps let the hammer go.  2) he claimed he thought it was a misfire and hadn't realized the woman was shot for some time after the shooting.  Both sound very odd to me.  The 2nd sounds almost unbelievable. 

https://ijr.com/reporter-confronts-alec-baldwin-street/
This article has part of it.  I didn't remember hearing about letting go of the hammer from the interview, but I never listened to it myself.
Quote
During an interview with ABC News’s George Stephanopoulos, Baldwin claimed he never pulled the trigger, as IJR reported.

“I would never point a gun at anyone or pull a trigger at them, never,” he added.

Baldwin suggested he “let go of the hammer of the gun, and the gun goes off.”

He was also asked if he felt guilty about the shooting during the same interview. He responded, “No, no.”

It still doesn't explain why the gun had live ammo.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 09, 2021, 03:31:22 PM
Today, I am hearing two things:  1) someone said Baldwin didn't pull the trigger, but did pull the hammer back, but not far enough to lock, then perhaps let the hammer go.  2) he claimed he thought it was a misfire and hadn't realized the woman was shot for some time after the shooting.  Both sound very odd to me.  The 2nd sounds almost unbelievable. 

https://ijr.com/reporter-confronts-alec-baldwin-street/
This article has part of it.  I didn't remember hearing about letting go of the hammer from the interview, but I never listened to it myself.
It still doesn't explain why the gun had live ammo.

Concerning #1 if I do that with my 1851 Navy repro the hammer stops at the half cock position UNLESS the trigger is held back. I would bet good money a 1873 works the same way.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on December 09, 2021, 03:53:13 PM
Concerning #1 if I do that with my 1851 Navy repro the hammer stops at the half cock position UNLESS the trigger is held back. I would bet good money a 1873 works the same way.

It does unless this is modified or broken. Maybe removed thee half cock for fan firing.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 09, 2021, 03:56:46 PM
It does unless this is modified or broken. Maybe removed thee half cock for fan firing.

You can fan fire by holding back the trigger while "fanning" the hammer.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Fly320s on December 09, 2021, 03:58:48 PM
Someone, somewhere has video of the crew playing around on the on-set range with the real guns and ammo.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on December 09, 2021, 05:29:41 PM
but did pull the hammer back, but not far enough to lock, then perhaps let the hammer go.

IIRC, that's what he said in the interview - that he pulled the hammer back and when they said the scene was good he "let go of the hammer".
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 09, 2021, 06:10:17 PM
^ And there are still people on The Firing Line defending him. I find that to be disappointing."

Possibly people who've had NDs that put holes in valuable things?

Funny you should mention that. IIRC, at least a couple of them still insist that it was an "accidental" discharge, not "negligent."
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 09, 2021, 06:14:29 PM
IIRC, that's what he said in the interview - that he pulled the hammer back and when they said the scene was good he "let go of the hammer".

And that's probably true. What he left out (and, to be honest, still may not understand) is that he probably had his finger on the trigger while he pulled back the hammer. The trigger travel on an 1873 is VERY short and, if the trigger is held back when cocking the hammer, the sear can't engage so, when the hammer is released -- it falls.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on December 09, 2021, 06:31:34 PM
I hope the sheriff is investigation the possibility that AB put live rounds in the old peacemaker and tried to make a murder look like an accident.  I doubt that's what happened, but it is a possibility that needs to not be ignored just because he's a so-called movie star.  He was in a unique position to do that as both the actor and producer.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on December 09, 2021, 11:30:35 PM
I have a SAA that is hidden right beside my recliner. Just to see I unloaded it. If I don't go to full cock it will not come around to the next round. The hammer falls in between without hitting anything. The hand just will not move it far enough without going to full cock.

This is my pistol. I'm not sure about the one he had but I think it would be the same.

Anyone else have one to try this?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on December 09, 2021, 11:54:48 PM
The only SAA I have is a Taurus with a transfer bar.  I bought it because of that, not realizing that just being a Taurus negated any additional safety from the transfer bar.  (I've had enough problems with that gun that I don't trust it, so I very seldom shoot it even tho' I think I have fixed all the problems)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: dogmush on December 10, 2021, 07:35:41 AM
Mine's not a true SAA but I'm told it's a close replica, and it advances the cylinder at the end of the hammer pull.

I found that if I hold the trigger back (like we presume Baldwin was doing) and cock it it will get the next cylinder in line with the bore somewhere between the half cock click and full cock, and would, I presume, fire if you dropped the hammer.  It also doesn't advance the cylinder until the second half of the hammer cock, so if the round was already under the hammer, and the trigger was held back, the hammer would fall on the round in the chamber.  Whether the hammer would have enough force to set off the primer from a quarter or third cock, I have no idea.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on December 10, 2021, 07:46:34 AM
Whether the hammer would have enough force to set off the primer from a quarter or third cock, I have no idea.

That Hikock45 video I posted some pages back showed him hitting the hammer with a stick not all that hard and the gun went off. Presuming if everything was lined up on a non-transfer bar replica, it seems like letting go from partial cock could do it.

My question would be why was Baldwin holding the hammer back? I can't think of a reason not to either not cock the gun at all or else cock it back till the hammer locks so that you're not holding the hammer under pressure for some lengthy period of time. With the latter, if he then "let go of the hammer" he would have had to have his finger on the trigger.

I have a blackpowder Pietta that I'm gonna break out later to experiment with. I'm actually not sure what safety features their BP revolvers have.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 10, 2021, 08:02:31 AM
Why it wasn't all that uncommon for people to carry older revolvers with the hammer down on an empty cylinder.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on December 10, 2021, 09:17:42 AM
I think my Cimaron does not have the transfer bar.  I will have to take a look at it.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on December 10, 2021, 10:51:09 AM
I hope the sheriff is investigation the possibility that AB put live rounds in the old peacemaker and tried to make a murder look like an accident.  I doubt that's what happened, but it is a possibility that needs to not be ignored just because he's a so-called movie star.  He was in a unique position to do that as both the actor and producer.

You're giving the man way too much credit.  He's not a real gunslinger, head-shotting his nemesis from a fanned hip shot.  He's an ignorant Hollywood screw-up.

If he was intentionally trying to hit her, he would have hit the craft services intern 20 feet to the left.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on December 10, 2021, 10:54:24 AM
I have a SAA that is hidden right beside my recliner. Just to see I unloaded it. If I don't go to full cock it will not come around to the next round. The hammer falls in between without hitting anything. The hand just will not move it far enough without going to full cock.

This is my pistol. I'm not sure about the one he had but I think it would be the same.

Anyone else have one to try this?

I don't... but I have clearly seen in some movies that they will sometimes modify revolver cylinders and lockworks so they don't advance with a pull of the hammer or double action trigger pull.  I suspect they do this in order to get that intimidating downrange perspective of a revolver all slugged up with angry little pills ready to come out and get you.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 10, 2021, 11:43:44 AM
Enter MAC
Watching right now

Did Alec Baldwin pull the trigger?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NCHz6ikEV8
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 10, 2021, 12:20:00 PM
I have a SAA that is hidden right beside my recliner.

That is the most boomer thing I've ever heard.  =D Well done!
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 10, 2021, 12:37:25 PM

I have a blackpowder Pietta that I'm gonna break out later to experiment with. I'm actually not sure what safety features their BP revolvers have.

An 1853 or 1860 Colt clone? The action is exactly the same as the 1873 SAA.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on December 10, 2021, 01:42:05 PM
An 1853 or 1860 Colt clone? The action is exactly the same as the 1873 SAA.

1851 Navy .44
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 10, 2021, 03:17:52 PM
1851 Navy .44

Ah, yes. I have one of those, too. A beautifully executed reproduction of a firearm that never existed.

The trigger pull on mine is around 2 pounds (maybe a bit less -- I haven't put a scale on it), with total travel less than 3/16ths of an inch.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on December 10, 2021, 03:47:42 PM
Ah, yes. I have one of those, too. A beautifully executed reproduction of a firearm that never existed.

The trigger pull on mine is around 2 pounds (maybe a bit less -- I haven't put a scale on it), with total travel less than 3/16ths of an inch.

A Navy would have been a .36, right?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 10, 2021, 03:51:26 PM
A Navy would have been a .36, right?

Navy .36
Army .44
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Bogie on December 10, 2021, 03:54:21 PM
I'm tempted to grab one, and then mill the cylinder for a light .38 or .44 load (depending). I'd probably make my own reduced capacity brass...
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MikeB on December 10, 2021, 04:35:17 PM
I'm tempted to grab one, and then mill the cylinder for a light .38 or .44 load (depending). I'd probably make my own reduced capacity brass...

You shouldn't need to mill the cylinder. You can often buy conversion cylinders. For example.

https://taylorsfirearms.com/pietta-1851-1861-navy-36-revolver-conversion-cylinder.html
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on December 10, 2021, 04:37:39 PM
You shouldn't need to mill the cylinder. You can often buy conversion cylinders. For example.

https://taylorsfirearms.com/pietta-1851-1861-navy-36-revolver-conversion-cylinder.html

I think he *wants* to mill it himself. =)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on December 10, 2021, 06:25:32 PM
Navy .36
Army .44

1851 Navy is available as either .36 or .44.

That may not be the correct nomenclature, but they are advertised everywhere as 1851 Navy and sold in .44
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ron on December 10, 2021, 06:30:46 PM
Why it wasn't all that uncommon for people to carry older revolvers with the hammer down on an empty cylinder.

Like the folks who are sketched out by a cocked gun would carry their 1911 in condition 3.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 10, 2021, 06:46:22 PM
Like the folks who are sketched out by a cocked gun would carry their 1911 in condition 3.

Which makes me wonder. Did anyone make a 1911 with a decocker? Hmmmm May do some searching in a bit.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 10, 2021, 06:54:59 PM
1851 Navy is available as either .36 or .44.

That may not be the correct nomenclature, but they are advertised everywhere as 1851 Navy and sold in .44

Understood. But back in the 19th century, Colt did not sell a version of the 1851 Navy in .44 caliber -- it was .36 caliber only. The 1860 Army was in .44 caliber.

Both Uberti and Pietta make"replicas" of the 1851 in .44 caliber but, as I wrote above, it's a very nice reproduction of a firearm that never existed in history.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 10, 2021, 06:56:52 PM
Which makes me wonder. Did anyone make a 1911 with a decocker? Hmmmm May do some searching in a bit.

Cylinder & Slide "Safety Fast Shooting System"

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/sfssystem.shtml
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ron on December 10, 2021, 06:57:41 PM
Which makes me wonder. Did anyone make a 1911 with a decocker? Hmmmm May do some searching in a bit.
Para-ordinance maybe? I used to shoot with a guy and I think his Para was double action.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ron on December 10, 2021, 07:07:33 PM
Was curious about the Para and looked them up.

DAO, no decocker.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on December 10, 2021, 07:08:17 PM
Understood. But back in the 19th century, Colt did not sell a version of the 1851 Navy in .44 caliber -- it was .36 caliber only. The 1860 Army was in .44 caliber.

Both Uberti and Pietta make"replicas" of the 1851 in .44 caliber but, as I wrote above, it's a very nice reproduction of a firearm that never existed in history.

Got it.

If they didn't sell them in .44, I probably would have gotten one of the Army revolvers. The .36 is too little for me.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Bogie on December 10, 2021, 07:46:08 PM
.36 worked just fine if you aimed...
 
I think it was Hickock who carried one?
 
And in those days, it was VERY common to carry more than two sidearms... Anyone know what the bore diameter is on the .44 versions? I'm thinking that a light special load could be interesting, especially if I do a short cavity on the brass. I've also been wanting to make some reduced capacity .45 brass.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 10, 2021, 07:51:58 PM
Study Finds Massive Spike In People Getting Shot By Alec Baldwin Under Biden Administration
https://babylonbee.com/news/study-finds-massive-spike-in-people-getting-shot-by-alec-baldwin-under-biden-administration

 :rofl:
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on December 10, 2021, 09:09:30 PM
.36 worked just fine if you aimed...
 
I think it was Hickock who carried one?
 
And in those days, it was VERY common to carry more than two sidearms... Anyone know what the bore diameter is on the .44 versions? I'm thinking that a light special load could be interesting, especially if I do a short cavity on the brass. I've also been wanting to make some reduced capacity .45 brass.

You need to go to .45 Colt.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: bedlamite on December 10, 2021, 10:06:27 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/7Q3MPbX.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/miMc752.jpg)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 10, 2021, 10:48:47 PM
Got it.

If they didn't sell them in .44, I probably would have gotten one of the Army revolvers. The .36 is too little for me.  :laugh:

There's a worse problem. It happens that the bore and groove size for .44 black powder are conveniently exactly the same as for .45 Colt and .45 ACP. That's not the case for .36 caliber black powder. The .36 caliber has a groove diameter of .375" -- typical .38 Special bullets are .357". People who buy the conversion cylinders for the .36 caliber Colt Navy pistols then go looking for special bullets that can be made to (more or less) obturate sufficiently to run through the barrel without excessive leading or loss of velocity.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 10, 2021, 10:51:23 PM
You need to go to .45 Colt.

I don't think the conversion cylinders for the .44 Navy "clones" are long enough to handle .45 Colt. I shot .45 Schofield in mine, until I got some .45 Cowboy Special brass from Starline.

I didn't shoot the gun enough to make it worth keeping around, but I think I still have a few pieces of the Starline brass in the basement somewhere.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on December 10, 2021, 10:53:09 PM
There's a worse problem. It happens that the bore and groove size for .44 black powder are conveniently exactly the same as for .45 Colt and .45 ACP. That's not the case for .36 caliber black powder. The .36 caliber has a groove diameter of .375" -- typical .38 Special bullets are .357". People who buy the conversion cylinders for the .36 caliber Colt Navy pistols then go looking for special bullets that can be made to (more or less) obturate sufficiently to run through the barrel without excessive leading or loss of velocity.

.38 S&W might work.  I can't remember for sure what size it is, but I think it's .365".  Or use swaged hollow-base wadcutters in whatever .38 cartridge you want.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 11, 2021, 12:33:49 AM
.38 S&W might work.  I can't remember for sure what size it is, but I think it's .365".  Or use swaged hollow-base wadcutters in whatever .38 cartridge you want.

That's one of the options they try. Another option is to find a mold for a .376" or .377" heeled-base bullet and load your own in .38 Special cases.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Bogie on December 11, 2021, 12:43:08 AM
Yeah, I'd figure a shortened "special" load... Run the head up too, so you have a long tunnel for the primer... Drop a little powder, crimp in a round ball, call it good.
 
Worse comes to worse, I can probably make a bullet mold, but I'd rather not jack around with that - too much like work.
 
(mold makers think upside-down and backwards - wildest thing the shop did was a setup for injection molding shot cups for a 16 gauge run...)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 11, 2021, 02:19:23 AM
More info
Quote
"Halyna was telling Alec she wanted to see his thumb working the hammer back to do the shot," Gandy recalled during ABC's 20/20 episode "The Deadly Take."

Hutchins was probably 18 inches or two feet away from the muzzle of the gun when it was fired, according to Gandy.
Quote
Crew member Lane Luper resigned the morning of Hutchins' death. He had claimed his resignation was due to poor accommodations and unsafe conditions on set. Specifically, Luper had said that scenes, where guns were used, were played "fast and loose," according to the interview.

However, other crew members refuted his allegations.
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/rust-alec-baldwin-halyna-hutchins-moment-gun-went-off
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on December 11, 2021, 07:55:47 AM
More infohttps://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/rust-alec-baldwin-halyna-hutchins-moment-gun-went-off

So from the armchair, but (four rules aside, sake of argument) if I were told they wanted to see me "cock the gun" I would assume they wanted me to actually cock the gun, not hold the hammer back part way. If they wanted to see me do it multiple times, I would be cocking the gun, lowering the hammer back down, which requires trigger manipulation, then repeating. At some point, were I careless, the hammer might slip.

I don't think I've ever seen a scene in a Western where somebody was pulling a gun on somebody else with their thumb holding the hammer part way back. The hammer is either down or fully cocked back.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 11, 2021, 05:35:41 PM
So from the armchair, but (four rules aside, sake of argument) if I were told they wanted to see me "cock the gun" I would assume they wanted me to actually cock the gun, not hold the hammer back part way. If they wanted to see me do it multiple times, I would be cocking the gun, lowering the hammer back down, which requires trigger manipulation, then repeating. At some point, were I careless, the hammer might slip.

I don't think I've ever seen a scene in a Western where somebody was pulling a gun on somebody else with their thumb holding the hammer part way back. The hammer is either down or fully cocked back.


The way Baldwin explained it (not that we should trust anything he says), she needed him to thumb the hammer back, but it sounded like it wasn't supposed to be all the way back. Not sure why. It also sounds like he's saying he intentionally let go of the hammer, as they were done with that particular shot.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on December 14, 2021, 01:03:00 PM
And that's probably true. What he left out (and, to be honest, still may not understand) is that he probably had his finger on the trigger while he pulled back the hammer. The trigger travel on an 1873 is VERY short and, if the trigger is held back when cocking the hammer, the sear can't engage so, when the hammer is released -- it falls.

Very true, and thanks, Hawkmoon.

Seems like every time someone points something out, some kind of weird explanation is offered.  I think they're called "plot holes" in the industry.



Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on December 14, 2021, 01:57:36 PM
Which all gets into what IMO are pointless explanations.  The gun went off when he was holding it and pointing at the deceased.  That is true whether he pulled the trigger or not.  He still accidentally shot the lady even if it wasn't intentional.  It appears he didn't murder her.  In that jurisdiction, what would they typically do in the case of an accidental or negligent death?  Even if they decide not to hold him criminally responsible, he is still liable. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 21, 2021, 08:04:05 AM
Been only what? Two months?

Alec Baldwin
Cops Get Search Warrant for His Phone As 'Rust' Investigation Continues
https://www.tmz.com/2021/12/16/alec-baldwin-cell-phone-search-warrant-rust-shooting-investigation/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on December 21, 2021, 08:40:55 AM
Been only what? Two months?

Alec Baldwin
Cops Get Search Warrant for His Phone As 'Rust' Investigation Continues
https://www.tmz.com/2021/12/16/alec-baldwin-cell-phone-search-warrant-rust-shooting-investigation/

And the cops gave him plenty of warning, announcing in the media weeks ago that they were going to search his phone.  I'm sure he is grateful for the extra time the cops allowed for him to wipe his phone completely.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Fly320s on December 21, 2021, 03:26:02 PM
And the cops gave him plenty of warning, announcing in the media weeks ago that they were going to search his phone.  I'm sure he is grateful for the extra time the cops allowed for him to wipe his phone completely.

Does "search his phone" mean searching the actual phone and it's contents or does that mean the cops will search all transmitted data?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on December 21, 2021, 04:14:45 PM
Does "search his phone" mean searching the actual phone and it's contents or does that mean the cops will search all transmitted data?

I would guess all of the above.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 21, 2021, 09:25:11 PM
And the cops gave him plenty of warning, announcing in the media weeks ago that they were going to search his phone.  I'm sure he is grateful for the extra time the cops allowed for him to wipe his phone completely.

Wipe it - with a cloth...
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: ConstitutionCowboy on December 22, 2021, 10:55:30 AM
And that's probably true. What he left out (and, to be honest, still may not understand) is that he probably had his finger on the trigger while he pulled back the hammer. The trigger travel on an 1873 is VERY short and, if the trigger is held back when cocking the hammer, the sear can't engage so, when the hammer is released -- it falls.

I think you mean the half cock notch on the hammer. Those revolvers don't have a sear.

Woody
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 22, 2021, 08:24:09 PM
I think you mean the half cock notch on the hammer. Those revolvers don't have a sear.


Yeah, they do. It's the upper end of the trigger.

https://schematron.org/image/colt-saa-parts-diagram-2.jpg
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: ConstitutionCowboy on December 22, 2021, 09:34:59 PM
Yeah, they do. It's the upper end of the trigger.

https://schematron.org/image/colt-saa-parts-diagram-2.jpg

You can call it that if you wish.

Woody
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 22, 2021, 09:40:12 PM
You can call it that if you wish.


It's not a question of what I wish -- it's a matter of definition:

https://www.americanfirearms.org/firearms-glossary/
Quote
Sear
The part of a firearm that keeps a hammer cocked until the trigger is pulled.

https://www.definitions.net/definition/SEAR
Quote
searnoun

Part of a gun that retards the hammer until the trigger is pulled.

Etymology: From searian, from sear. Related to Old High German soren, Greek hauos ("dry"), Sanskrit sōsa ("drought"). The use in firearms terminology may relate to French serrer ("to grip").
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: dogmush on December 22, 2021, 09:45:58 PM
Yeah, they do. It's the upper end of the trigger.

https://schematron.org/image/colt-saa-parts-diagram-2.jpg

That is the strangest looking SAA I've ever seen.

FWIW, the Colt parts lists have a "sear spring " which holds the top of the trigger towards the hammer.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Bogie on December 22, 2021, 09:54:27 PM
That's because that isn't an SAA... That's a percussion cap piece, from about 20 years prior to the advent of the SAA...
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: JN01 on December 23, 2021, 12:08:01 AM
That's because that isn't an SAA... That's a percussion cap piece, from about 20 years prior to the advent of the SAA...

The innards are the same though.  If the sear is broken so that it won't engage the cocking notches on the hammer, the hammer will fall as soon as it is released, without touching the trigger. It would do that every time, though, so it would be obvious the gun was not functioning properly.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Bogie on December 23, 2021, 12:11:33 AM
So, the firearm will be examined, and will either not have the trigger sear, or the damn fool had his finger pulling the trigger back, and his thumb slipped.
 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 23, 2021, 07:13:47 AM
That is the strangest looking SAA I've ever seen.

FWIW, the Colt parts lists have a "sear spring " which holds the top of the trigger towards the hammer.

Quote from: Bogie
That's because that isn't an SAA... That's a percussion cap piece, from about 20 years prior to the advent of the SAA...

It's the only cut-away view I could find. Lots of exploded parts diagrams of the SAA, but no cutaways.

The mechanism is the same. The upper end of the trigger is the sear.

Gosh, you'd think I haven't ever worked on 1849s, 1851s, or 1973s.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: dogmush on December 23, 2021, 09:56:00 AM
I was just having fun because the hyperlink says SAA when it's clearly  not one. Guess I should have used a smiley.

But while we're at it:
Gosh, you'd think I haven't ever worked on 1849s, 1851s, or 1973s.

Is a Colt 1973 like a revolver? Still Single Action?


......



 =D
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: JN01 on December 23, 2021, 11:11:16 AM
So, the firearm will be examined, and will either not have the trigger sear, or the damn fool had his finger pulling the trigger back, and his thumb slipped.

Yes, or he cocked the gun and then pulled the trigger.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Bogie on December 23, 2021, 01:49:16 PM
Click C
Click O
Click L
Click T

And then bang is how it usually works, until something gets worn or monkeyed with.
 
"The actor needs to be able to fan it" is one scenario...
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on December 23, 2021, 02:05:02 PM
Someone needs to edit the scenes in The Hunt For Red October where Baldwin is handed the 1911 followed by the part where shots go flying in the control room
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 23, 2021, 02:38:23 PM
Someone needs to edit the scenes in The Hunt For Red October where Baldwin is handed the 1911 followed by the part where shots go flying in the control room

Someone needs to get Baldwin and Rasta-narc together, to go on a gun safety campaign. They could make some educational videos...
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 23, 2021, 03:03:14 PM
I was just having fun because the hyperlink says SAA when it's clearly  not one. Guess I should have used a smiley.

But while we're at it:
Is a Colt 1973 like a revolver? Still Single Action?

......



 =D

Yes -- it's related by typo.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: sumpnz on December 23, 2021, 03:34:59 PM
Someone needs to edit the scenes in The Hunt For Red October where Baldwin is handed the 1911 followed by the part where shots go flying in the control room

I would like to see Montana.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 08, 2022, 12:50:28 AM
I'm bringing this one back.

Didn't Baldwin claim he was "cooperating" with the authorities? Apparently when "the authorities" asked to see his cell phone, he told them to get a warrant. So they did -- but, by the time they got it, he was gone from New Mexico, and he still hasn't turned over the phone.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10377455/New-Mexico-New-York-police-work-Baldwin-phone.html

Nice guy ...
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: griz on January 13, 2022, 09:11:45 AM
Another update.  The armorer, Hannah Gutierrez Reed, is suing Seth Kenney, who provided the blanks for the movie.  The article is a lot of he said-she said but is more allegation than facts.  Nevertheless, she claims he mixed live ammo with the blanks because of a live ammo familiarization session some time before.  She also mentions she was not allowed to be there during the time of the fatal shooting because of Covid protocols.  Still a lot of unanswered questions and still plenty of blame to go around.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2022/01/12/alec-baldwin-rust-armorer-sues-ammunition-supplier-halyna-hutchins-death/9193268002/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on January 13, 2022, 10:31:51 AM
Another update.  The armorer, Hannah Gutierrez Reed, is suing Seth Kenney, who provided the blanks for the movie.  The article is a lot of he said-she said but is more allegation than facts.  Nevertheless, she claims he mixed live ammo with the blanks because of a live ammo familiarization session some time before.  She also mentions she was not allowed to be there during the time of the fatal shooting because of Covid protocols.  Still a lot of unanswered questions and still plenty of blame to go around.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2022/01/12/alec-baldwin-rust-armorer-sues-ammunition-supplier-halyna-hutchins-death/9193268002/
It seems to me that if she wasn't there, she has no way of knowing what ammo was used that morning. 

It sounds like the whole film shoot was a bit of a mess. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on January 13, 2022, 10:37:38 AM
The story keeps changing
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on January 13, 2022, 11:23:35 AM
The story keeps changing

Not really, her story is what I heard from the start it just got buried.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on January 13, 2022, 11:32:34 AM
Not really, her story is what I heard from the start it just got buried.

I remember reading that she put the gun(s) on the cart and that the assistant(?) director handed the gun to Baldwin from the cart. How much time in-between, if any, I don't know.
Maybe that was the way IT was suppose to happen but perhaps didn't
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on January 13, 2022, 12:21:26 PM
I remember reading that she put the gun(s) on the cart and that the assistant(?) director handed the gun to Baldwin from the cart. How much time in-between, if any, I don't know.
Maybe that was the way IT was suppose to happen but perhaps didn't
I think I heard she did that, but wasn't there later when the assistant director got the gun from the cart.  I have no idea if anyone checked the gun or the ammo. 

There have been a lot of claims of people tampering with the gun or the ammo, but with no control over either, there is no way to prove any of it. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 24, 2022, 10:28:12 PM
Alec Baldwin and the other producers are trying to get a lawsuit against them by the script supervisor thrown out.

https://deadline.com/2022/01/alec-baldwin-lawsuit-rust-producers-dismiss-fatal-shooting-mamie-mitchell-gloria-allred-1234919067/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on January 25, 2022, 03:59:56 PM
Alec Baldwin and the other producers are trying to get a lawsuit against them by the script supervisor thrown out.

https://deadline.com/2022/01/alec-baldwin-lawsuit-rust-producers-dismiss-fatal-shooting-mamie-mitchell-gloria-allred-1234919067/
I wasn't real sure from the article, but I think this was the lawsuit by a separate person on the set claiming emotional distress.  I might be mistaken.  I wasn't sure why this person was suing other than trying to cash in.  Maybe they think if this suit is dismissed for those reasons, it justifies throwing out other lawsuits.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: JN01 on January 25, 2022, 11:12:46 PM
The script supervisor is a survivor of the Alec Baldwin mass shooting and is no doubt suffering from PTSD.  A stack of cash will help him heal.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: gunsmith on January 31, 2022, 10:14:11 PM
The script supervisor is a survivor of the Alec Baldwin mass shooting and is no doubt suffering from PTSD.  A stack of cash will help him heal.

wait.... I have PTSD  from this too, .... perhaps we all need to sue Alec
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on February 01, 2022, 10:29:33 PM
Baldwin announced a new movie deal. 

(https://i.imgur.com/90R1Ogr.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on February 15, 2022, 08:24:42 PM
Lawsuit number 3 or 4

Alec Baldwin Sued by Family of Cinematographer He Shot and Killed
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/alec-baldwin-sued-by-family-of-cinematographer-he-shot-and-killed/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on February 15, 2022, 08:44:05 PM
I wonder if that attorney is as unimpressive in the courtroom as he appears to be in the video ... or if he's doing a Columbo.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on February 15, 2022, 10:34:34 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/90R1Ogr.jpg)

I'd like to see a dozen or so of the many trailers they'll have to make for that movie.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 13, 2022, 01:05:49 AM
Alec Baldwin is truly a piece of work. (Signed: Captain Obvious)

He still maintains that he is totally blameless in the movie set shooting. Now he's even blaming the woman he killed.

https://nypost.com/2022/03/11/alec-baldwin-denies-responsibility-for-killing-halyna-hutchins/

https://nypost.com/2022/03/11/alec-baldwins-despicable-defense-in-shooting-halyna-hutchins/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on March 13, 2022, 05:12:16 PM
I forgot who said it, but "Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it."

Sometimes three or four.  Sometimes five or six.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on March 18, 2022, 08:51:26 PM
Late 'Rust' cinematographer Halyna Hutchins' parents in Kyiv preparing ‘for the worst,’ her husband says
Halyna's mother and father are in Kyiv while her sister and niece have made it to the Romanian border

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/late-rust-cinematographer-halyna-hutchins-parents-ukraine
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Fly320s on March 19, 2022, 07:50:32 AM
Alec Baldwin convinced the Russians to invade Ukraine just to kill the parents?

Sounds like a Hollywood blockbuster.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 19, 2022, 12:44:53 PM
Alec Baldwin convinced the Russians to invade Ukraine just to kill the parents?

Sounds like a Hollywood blockbuster.

Nah. Putin wouldn't do Baldwin any favors. Baldwin helped steal Red October.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Fly320s on March 19, 2022, 01:02:49 PM
Quote
Hey, Ryan.  Be careful what you shoot at.  Most things directors here don't react well to bullets.

-Ramius
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on April 20, 2022, 06:01:52 PM
Quote
New Mexico’s Occupational Health and Safety Bureau said Rust Movie Productions must pay $136,793, and distributed a scathing narrative of safety failures in violation of standard industry protocols, including testimony that production managers took limited or no action to address two misfires on set prior to the fatal shooting. The bureau also documented gun safety complaints from crew members that went unheeded and said weapons specialists were not allowed to make decisions about additional safety training.

New Mexico Fines ‘Rust’ Producers for Willful Breaches of Industry Gun Safety Practices
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/new-mexico-fines-rust-producers-for-willful-breaches-of-industry-gun-safety-practices/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on April 20, 2022, 06:39:18 PM
New Mexico Fines ‘Rust’ Producers for Willful Breaches of Industry Gun Safety Practices
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/new-mexico-fines-rust-producers-for-willful-breaches-of-industry-gun-safety-practices/

For an article by a supposedly knowledgeable publication, I'm surprised to see this:

Quote
At a ranch on the outskirts of Santa Fe on Oct. 21, 2021, Baldwin was pointing a gun at cinematographer Halyna Hutchins inside a small church during setup for the filming of a scene when it went off, killing Hutchins and wounding the director, Joel Souza.

As we know, guns don't "go off" all by themselves. And I don't believe that the gun Baldwin was holding "went off" -- not without some help from Mr. Baldwin.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on April 20, 2022, 06:40:57 PM
I keep telling you!  I was in the next State north of there and didn't have anything to do with it !

And I lost my phone in a tragic boating accident.

Terry 230RN
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: griz on April 20, 2022, 07:56:40 PM
That was also on the BBC news today, and they covered it the same way.  Specifically, they said Mr. Balwin was holding the gun when it "went off".  So, I guess the state ruled it to be an avoidable workplace oopsie.  Let the lawsuits begin.  Do movie companies self insure?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: gunsmith on April 23, 2022, 02:36:07 PM
 it is hard for me to believe he still cannot face legal consequences - I hope the production company getting fined is the end of the investigation/prosecution
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on April 29, 2022, 07:54:56 PM
He's back! The man knows no shame.

https://dailycaller.com/2022/04/29/alec-baldwin-calls-for-gun-control-in-viral-instagram-post/

Despite the fact that no gun control measure ever proposed by any anti-2A advocate (other than simply not allowing any guns in movies) would or could have prevented his shooting of Halyna Hutchins, he has decided that now is the time and he is the man to speak out in favor of more gun control.

Baldwin is worse than despicable. A phrase we used to use when I was in the Army comes to mind -- something involving whales and the bottom of the ocean.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: griz on April 30, 2022, 03:28:48 PM
As a gun owner who has safely used guns for half a century and never shot anybody, I really appreciate being given advice by somebody who oversaw a movie that used guns, hired the people that were in charge of using the guns safely, ignored their direction, and claims he isn't responsible for shooting the people whom he pointed a gun at and shot them.  Yep, he's got a lot of credibility.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on May 02, 2022, 04:59:58 PM
It wasn't my fault.  My car slid off the road at 85mph and hit that lady. Who could blame me?  What was she doing there in the first place?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on May 21, 2022, 09:07:24 PM
California Democrats try to enact laws that basically just regurgitate what the film industry [mostly -- except for Alec Baldwin] already does. Competing bills get no traction.

https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2022/05/21/california-tries-to-ban-guns-on-movie-sets-n470987

Quote
If those proposed rules sound familiar to you, that’s because they were all described extensively in reports that emerged after the Rust shooting. There was an armorer on Baldwin’s set and one of the assistant directors was a designated safety coordinator. There were lockable storage containers for all of the firearms and ammunition. The set schedules included provisions for safety meetings and inspections.

All of those provisions were in place. The problem is that Baldwin’s production company didn’t follow the rules or make use of all of the safety tools. Complaints were raised that the armorer was limited in the amount of time she was allowed to work. Safety meetings were canceled from the schedule. Weapons were not properly secured and people were reportedly engaging in target shooting in the desert when no filming was taking place. And the required inspections of all firearms and ammunition prior to being distributed to the crew obviously weren’t done rigorously or Halyna Hutchins would still be alive today. New rules wouldn’t make any difference if production companies ignore them.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: griz on May 22, 2022, 05:53:46 PM
I like to think/hope that lawmakers are generally smart people.  But when they work to pass a law that requires what's already supposed to be happening, I have to wonder.  It's the legal equivalent of saying, "I learned my lesson, I'll never get that drunk again", then getting hammered anyway.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on May 22, 2022, 06:50:34 PM
"In other news, Senator Ted Kennedy has introduced a bill that would impose harsh penalties for anyone leaving the scene of a fatal vehicular accident."
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on May 22, 2022, 07:00:26 PM
"In other news, Senator Ted Kennedy has introduced a bill that would impose harsh penalties for anyone leaving the scene of a fatal vehicular accident."

The dead not only vote they introduce bills now
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on August 13, 2022, 03:57:31 PM
Update: The FBI has determined that the gun could not have fired unless Baldwin pulled the trigger.

https://www.tmz.com/2022/08/13/alec-baldwin-rust-shooting-forensic-fbi-pulled-trigger/

Where's my shocked face?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on August 13, 2022, 03:58:50 PM
Update: The FBI has determined that the gun could not have fired unless Baldwin Trump pulled the trigger.

https://www.tmz.com/2022/08/13/alec-baldwin-rust-shooting-forensic-fbi-pulled-trigger/

Where's my shocked face?

Fixed it to what they actually meant to say
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on August 13, 2022, 04:15:55 PM
Part of that forensic report (as reported by TMZ) makes no sense at all.  It says the gun could have fired a primer by fiddling with the hammer but not fired a bullet.  WTF does that mean?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on August 13, 2022, 04:22:34 PM
Part of that forensic report (as reported by TMZ) makes no sense at all.  It says the gun could have fired a primer by fiddling with the hammer but not fired a bullet.  WTF does that mean?

Yeah, that's a bit odd to say the least

Quote
but what the FBI notes in their reports is ... that gun, when working properly, will not release a bullet and primer simultaneously by just fiddling with the hammer alone.
Quote
Their report, per ABC, notes they set the hammer at varying angles and positions to see if they could make it fire without pulling the trigger ... but they say they couldn't. The only thing the hammer COULD do when de-cocked and then directly struck on its own (without pulling the trigger) was detonate the primer.
Quote
That essentially means it could set off the actual gunshot sound itself, without discharging a bullet, according to the FBI -- but that's obviously not what happened in AB's case.

That makes no sense at all

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RocketMan on August 13, 2022, 05:39:19 PM
Part of that forensic report (as reported by TMZ) makes no sense at all.  It says the gun could have fired a primer by fiddling with the hammer but not fired a bullet.  WTF does that mean?

The FBI is showing their fabulous firearms expertise.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on August 13, 2022, 05:53:57 PM
Part of that forensic report (as reported by TMZ) makes no sense at all.  It says the gun could have fired a primer by fiddling with the hammer but not fired a bullet.  WTF does that mean?

Yes, I raised an eyebrow over that little tidbit, myself.

TMZ is an entertainment-oriented web site, I believe. I'm reasonably certain that this is the result of a writer trying to explain something that he or she is incapable of understanding. I'd like to see the text of the actual report.

The Washington Times seems to have done a better job of covering it:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/aug/13/fbi-forensic-report-reveals-alec-baldwin-had-have-/
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Jim147 on August 13, 2022, 05:59:40 PM
The FBI is showing their fabulous firearms expertise.

They are some of our finest.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: gunsmith on August 13, 2022, 09:05:59 PM
 I used to make fun of Alec Baldwin, but now that I know he is allowed to brutally murder people - I am only going to speak very highly of him
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 14, 2022, 02:44:30 PM
From the Washington Times link, it sounds like the gun was able to fire with the hammer down, w/o the trigger being pulled.

Quote
When the hammer was un-cocked and the chamber was loaded, the gun was able to detonate the primer without the pull of the trigger only when the hammer was struck directly, according to ABC News.

So if the uncocked hammer was struck, the gun could fire. No transfer bar safety, I guess. So Baldwin's lawyers will have to show the hammer was somehow struck while Baldwin innocently held it. Or, more likely, that the director told him to pull the trigger. But he's already said he didn't pull the trigger.

How did the FBI get involved? Local cops asked for an expert opinion on the gun?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: gunsmith on August 14, 2022, 02:50:53 PM
From the Washington Times link, it sounds like the gun was able to fire with the hammer down, w/o the trigger being pulled.

So if the uncocked hammer was struck, the gun could fire. No transfer bar safety, I guess.

hence, the old single action six shooters used to only carry 5 rounds and one would leave the hammer down on an empty chamber?? -

one should still not point it at a human and check to see if loaded before handling on a movie set
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on August 14, 2022, 06:07:20 PM
How did the FBI get involved? Local cops asked for an expert opinion on the gun?

Yes.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on August 22, 2022, 04:12:49 AM
Update: Baldwin is still claiming it was everyone else's fault except his:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/19/entertainment/alec-baldwin-interview-rust-shooting/index.html

He also claims he has lost five roles due to the shooting. I guess that means we're supposed to feel sorry for him.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: griz on August 22, 2022, 09:10:18 AM
He was the producer of Rust, so I assume he had some role in the hiring.  I wonder if this means not even he would hire himself now?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on August 22, 2022, 09:53:32 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/kH7zwWI.png?1)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: ConstitutionCowboy on August 22, 2022, 10:27:44 AM
...

How did the FBI get involved? Local cops asked for an expert opinion on the gun?

I would guess the locals didn't want to take the responsibility of arresting and prosecuting such a 'high profile' job creator.

Woody
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on August 22, 2022, 11:36:42 AM
I would guess the locals didn't want to take the responsibility of arresting and prosecuting such a 'high profile' job creator.

Woody

Ultimately it's their job to arrest and prosecute.  I really doubt any federal laws were broken.  But I don't blame them for calling in experts first (not sure why the FBI and not the state police)
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on August 23, 2022, 05:59:25 AM
Part of that forensic report (as reported by TMZ) makes no sense at all.  It says the gun could have fired a primer by fiddling with the hammer but not fired a bullet.  WTF does that mean?

Indeed.  I stumbled over that myself.  Must be some kind of ignorant translation of a technical point, per Hawkmoon's remarks above.

And I don't know about you, but I dread the thought of a hammer slipping out from under my thumb, half-cock notches, hammer friction grooves, and transfer bars notwithstanding.

He was the producer of Rust, so I assume he had some role in the hiring.  I wonder if this means not even he would hire himself now?

Sign on President Truman's desk (may be a reproduction):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515j%2B-ZVXnL.jpg)

I'm also familiar with the danger of keeping a live round under the hammer of one of those antique single-actions, and I don't have a hard time imagining fiddling with the hammer and having it snap down weakly on a live round primer and making it detonate anyway.

Hence, incidentally, my aforementioned dread of having a hammer slip out from under my thumb because it happened to a cousin's uncle's son.  Did not go off, but left a perceptible dent on the cartridge primer, not unlike the dent from firing pin inertia in semi auto firearms*.

This was long ago, when my cousin's  uncle's son was new to firearms, and my cousin's uncle's son researched the matter further in actual printed books.  Nonte's, I believe my cousin's uncle's son said.

Terry, 230RN

* NOTE Primer sensitivity varies.  See Hatcher page 394 for some notes on this.  I was told once that foreign Berdan ammo has primers with harder cups than US standards to avoid slam-firing in their semi auto arms.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on August 23, 2022, 10:00:32 AM
The problem with guns is the bullet usually stops somewhere else. 

Not just antique single action guns.  Most of the reproductions have the same design so it is something people need to learn if they own one.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Bogie on August 23, 2022, 10:56:11 AM
Funny, but you can usually rest that hammer between chambers... I suspect that the empty chamber loaded with burial money is a legend...
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on August 23, 2022, 11:35:05 AM
Funny, but you can usually rest that hammer between chambers... I suspect that the empty chamber loaded with burial money is a legend...

Not on a Colt 1873 SAA. The Remington 1858 cap-and-ball revolvers had a rest notch between chambers on the cylinder. The SAA doesn't.

With that: Baldwin's story doesn't add up. He claims he pulled the hammer back as far as he could "without cocking the gun," and then let go of the hammer. The Italian clones (both Uberti and Pietta) have the authentic Colt 4-click cocking sequence. The first click occurs so soon after you start pulling the hammer back that it wouldn't even show up on a camera. Then come two more, and -- finally - the fully-cocked position. But the hammer won't return to rest from any of those positions if the trigger hasn't been pulled.

So either Baldwin is a liar (which is entirely possible, and maybe even probable), or he pulled the trigger and didn't realize that he had done so. Considering that he has shown horrible trigger finger discipline in previous films, I'm leaning toward the latter explanation. Which does not absolve him of responsibility, on any level. On the direct level, as the actor who fired the shot, he was THE person who fired the fatal shot, and who didn't observe the multiple safety protocols that were supposed to be in place. As one of the producers, he bears responsibility for the decision to cheap out on hiring an armorer, and then to require the armorer to do double duty as a prop assistant so that she wasn't available much of the time to do the primary job she was hired to do.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: griz on August 23, 2022, 04:42:26 PM
Quote
So either Baldwin is a liar (which is entirely possible, and maybe even probable), or he pulled the trigger and didn't realize that he had done so.

Seems to me he is in denial.  You can't pull the hammer back as far as it will go without cocking the gun, and the hammer will only drop when the trigger is pulled.  I don't doubt that he: 1. didn't expect the gun to fire, and 2. didn't want to shoot anybody.  But his explanations are just his mind refusing to accept that his actions killed somebody.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: dogmush on August 23, 2022, 05:52:09 PM
I don't think there's much doubt in the minds of anyone that has shot a SAA or clone (or hell, a Ruger Blackhawk) that he had poor trigger discipline, and his finger on the trigger as he cocked the gun held it off the hammer hooks, and he let the hammer go when he thought it was cocked, and the hammer dropped unexpectedly (to him).  Hell, given what was happening there's probably footage of him cocking it with his finger on the trigger.  It takes what? 3 lbs on the trigger to hold it off the hammer hooks?  It's less then the actual trigger pull anyway.

I'm sure his mind is telling him he didn't, and I'm equally sure he didn't mean to kill the lady, but he still did.  Responsibility can be a mofo.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: zxcvbob on August 24, 2022, 12:33:37 AM
I don't think there's much doubt in the minds of anyone that has shot a SAA or clone (or hell, a Ruger Blackhawk) that he had poor trigger discipline, and his finger on the trigger as he cocked the gun held it off the hammer hooks, and he let the hammer go when he thought it was cocked, and the hammer dropped unexpectedly (to him).  Hell, given what was happening there's probably footage of him cocking it with his finger on the trigger.  It takes what? 3 lbs on the trigger to hold it off the hammer hooks?  It's less then the actual trigger pull anyway.

I'm sure his mind is telling him he didn't, and I'm equally sure he didn't mean to kill the lady, but he still did.  Responsibility can be a mofo.

I doubt that he meant to kill her, but I wouldn't rule it out as a possibility.  I really hope the investigators don't dismiss that without looking into it.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: dogmush on September 26, 2022, 12:56:03 PM
I guess they may be finally getting around to charging some folks for this. 

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2022-09-26/new-mexico-district-attorney-may-charge-alec-baldwin-in-rust-shooting
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: 230RN on September 26, 2022, 01:14:27 PM
(https://www.publicdomainpictures.net/pictures/200000/velka/crystal-ball-14781928157ne.jpg)

Pure theater.

"We've got to do something."

Avoidable accident.

"Okay, my client will go for that."

Thirty days picking up trash on the highway.

Suspended because of distances involved.

"See that your client doesn't do that again in my jurisdiction."

"Right.  No 'sta problema. Lunch?"

"Sure."

"Outback, my treat."

"Sounds good, let's go."

"Did you hear about that incredible putt Judge Markey made last Sunday?"

"Yeah, I'd like to get him under oath on that one!"

..................

I am not laughing.

Terry, 230RN

Pic credit public domain.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: dogmush on September 26, 2022, 01:19:33 PM
I din't think they were going to do any criminal charges at all, so if she follows through and charges him, I'll be happily surprised.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on September 26, 2022, 01:25:40 PM
(https://www.publicdomainpictures.net/pictures/200000/velka/crystal-ball-14781928157ne.jpg)

Pure theater.

"We've got to do something."

Avoidable accident.

"Okay, my client will go for that."

Thirty days picking up trash on the highway.

Suspended because of distances involved.

"See that your client doesn't do that again in my jurisdiction."

"Lunch?"

"Sure."

"Outback, my treat."

"Sounds good, let's go."

..................

I am not laughing.

Terry, 230RN

Pic credit public domain.

Then everyone involved cry about it on Oprah
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 26, 2022, 01:39:54 PM
Then everyone involved cry about it on Oprah

All but the deceased.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: griz on September 26, 2022, 05:46:36 PM
Why does the legislature need to decide if they'll fund it?  That can't be routine, or they would have to decide every felony charge in the state.  Is it a disguised escape hatch so Baldwin's attorneys only need to get the state to spend X dollars before they give up?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on October 05, 2022, 10:50:56 AM
Filming to resume
A "settlement" has been reportedly reached with Hutchins family and her husband will be executive producer.

Does this seem a bit on the weird side to you?

Alec Baldwin shooting: Filming to resume after Halyna Hutchins death on set
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-63149155

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Brad Johnson on October 05, 2022, 10:54:44 AM
Filming to resume
A "settlement" has been reportedly reached with Hutchins family and her husband will be executive producer.

Does this seem a bit on the weird side to you?

Alec Baldwin shooting: Filming to resume after Halyna Hutchins death on set
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-63149155

Most of the time "Executive Producer" = percent of ticket sales, distribution revenues, royalties, and residuals. My guess would be Baldwin agreed to releasing a bunch of his EP rights in lieu of a lump sum settlement.

Brad
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Tuco on October 05, 2022, 11:40:04 AM
But still, the criminal charges?
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: RoadKingLarry on October 05, 2022, 04:22:13 PM
 :
But still, the criminal charges?

 :rofl:
He's a Hollywood elite and a staunch democrat liberal commie and Trump hater.
He gets a different "justice" than what you or I would get.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: MechAg94 on October 05, 2022, 04:50:13 PM
Most of the time "Executive Producer" = percent of ticket sales, distribution revenues, royalties, and residuals. My guess would be Baldwin agreed to releasing a bunch of his EP rights in lieu of a lump sum settlement.

Brad
Sounds like a stupid agreement to me unless there is guaranteed money. 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Brad Johnson on October 05, 2022, 06:13:31 PM
Sounds like a stupid agreement to me unless there is guaranteed money. 

In the movie biz, having "Executive Producer" in your resume is most insiders' wet dream.

Brad
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: ConstitutionCowboy on October 08, 2022, 10:49:57 AM
Shouldn't the title of this thread be, "Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Negligence" ?

If someone already said this, good on you!

Woody
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 08, 2022, 10:51:45 AM
Shouldn't the title of this thread be, "Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Negligence" ?

If someone already said this, good on you!

Woody

In fairness to the thread starter (me  =D )  we didn't know much about it when it was first reported.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: HeroHog on October 08, 2022, 12:24:03 PM
Or, at least "Incident". It CAN be changed, you know...
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Ben on October 08, 2022, 12:25:50 PM
Or, at least "Incident". It CAN be changed, you know...

Are you one of those lefties that's into stealth editing history?

 =D
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: HeroHog on October 08, 2022, 12:48:16 PM
Are you one of those lefties that's into stealth editing history?

 =D

Nope, a solid righty who posts that they edited something!
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 09, 2022, 12:46:52 AM
Filming to resume
A "settlement" has been reportedly reached with Hutchins family and her husband will be executive producer.

Does this seem a bit on the weird side to you?

Alec Baldwin shooting: Filming to resume after Halyna Hutchins death on set
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-63149155

I would have thought the project would be shelved. But I guess the movie's got a lot of buzz now. Gotta cash in.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: WLJ on November 12, 2022, 01:43:40 PM
Running his mouth and filing a lawsuit

Quote
    Alec Baldwin says Halyna Hutchins's family and others are suing him because they are money-motivated https://t.co/EdCUodS6WB

    — Daily Mail Celebrity (@DailyMailCeleb) March 8, 2022

Quote
    Alec Baldwin has filed a lawsuit in California against several individuals associated with the “Rust” film, according to a cross-complaint obtained by CNN https://t.co/QWmIktWY4O

    — CNN (@CNN) November 12, 2022
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/11/12/alec-baldwin-reportedly-suing-crew-members-on-rust-set-for-giving-him-a-loaded-gun/


Quote
Baldwin’s suit names Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, the film’s rookie armorer who was in charge of handling guns and ammunition, as well as assistant director David Halls, who handed the loaded gun to Baldwin after he announced it was safe.

Sarah Zachry, the head of the crew’s props department, and Seth Kenney, who supplied the guns and ammunition to the set, were also named.
Alec Baldwin sues several ‘Rust’ crew members for handing him loaded gun
https://nypost.com/2022/11/11/alec-baldwin-sues-rust-crew-members-for-handing-him-loaded-gun/?utm_medium=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter

Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: gunsmith on November 12, 2022, 04:59:50 PM
so, he is really going to get away with negligent homicide?? :mad:
 
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Hawkmoon on November 12, 2022, 05:35:02 PM
so, he is really going to get away with negligent homicide?? :mad:

Probably.

Money talks.

Check out the video of the cops at the scene, on the day of the incident. A woman has just been killed by a negligent discharge of a loaded firearm, and all the cops want to do is find away to write it off as an accident so they can wash their hands of it.

https://nypost.com/2022/11/11/alec-baldwin-sues-rust-crew-members-for-handing-him-loaded-gun/?utm_medium=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Boomhauer on November 12, 2022, 10:18:37 PM
so, he is really going to get away with negligent homicide?? :mad:
 

Yes.

The elite live under a completely different set of rules than we do.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 13, 2022, 12:56:03 AM
Yes.

The elite live under a completely different set of rules than we do.

If we put Alec Baldwin in jail, he'd never be able to stop the gun violence epidemic with common sense gun safety laws.
Title: Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
Post by: griz on November 13, 2022, 08:24:29 AM
If we put Alec Baldwin in jail, he'd never be able to stop the gun violence epidemic with common sense gun safety laws.

I can see a Public Service Announcement with Mr. Baldwin pointing a gun at the camera pleading "pass another gun law before I kill AGAIN".