Armed Polite Society

Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: WLJ on December 28, 2021, 07:23:04 AM

Title: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: WLJ on December 28, 2021, 07:23:04 AM

Wait what?  :O

Quote
An image circulating on social media purports to show an IRS guideline asking taxpayers to report the value of any property they have stolen each year as income.

The guideline is real.

The Internal Revenue Service’s Publication 17, available on the agency’s website, contains a section on stolen property that may leave readers scratching their heads.
IRS: Report stolen property as income, unless you return it the same year
https://www.cbs42.com/news/national/irs-report-stolen-property-as-income-unless-you-return-it-the-same-year/amp/

(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/s720x720/269265722_10159879446610421_3862403651399003877_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_rgb565=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=kwi9ddLRussAX_0r_o9&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AT-F88aav2bsAS6NYPJinDmBZjJjOEQ8OKCtYXsVZHmXlg&oe=61CF066A)

Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: WLJ on December 28, 2021, 07:28:04 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G56VgsLfKY4
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: De Selby on December 28, 2021, 07:33:55 AM
Local PD not interested in your home burglary or stolen car? Call the IRS!
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: Boomhauer on December 28, 2021, 08:58:34 AM
It’s not “purports” if you download the guide off of the IRS website it’s in there along with “income from criminal activity must be reported”
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: HankB on December 28, 2021, 09:32:50 AM
It’s not “purports” if you download the guide off of the IRS website it’s in there along with “income from criminal activity must be reported
Al Capone found that out.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: WLJ on December 28, 2021, 09:54:49 AM
Al Capone found that out.

Yeah, the government hates competition
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: RocketMan on December 28, 2021, 11:07:01 AM
Isn't there a Fifth Amendment issue with this requirement?  Self incrimination?
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 28, 2021, 11:19:51 AM
So if you operate your burglary business on an accrual basis rather than a cash basis, do you have to report as income stuff you had planned to steal but weren't able to?
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: HankB on December 28, 2021, 11:21:04 AM
Isn't there a Fifth Amendment issue with this requirement?  Self incrimination?
So this is a case where two amendments - income tax and self incrimination - can conflict.

I may be wrong, but I vaguely recall reading that criminal proceeds reported on an IRS tax form couldn't be used to prosecute the criminal. I think part of the argument is that a crook was obliged to report his criminal income but couldn't be required to be extremely specific about the exact source of the criminal income.

Of course, if law enforcement becomes aware of any criminal income at all, they may decide to start looking for other evidence - something they can use.

(Hmmm . . .  fair market value of stolen goods? In the case of a big jewelry or designer clothing & accessories heist, would that be retail price or what a fence would pay the crook? Or what he'd get at a flea market? I'm wondering about some of the flash mob "smash and grab" robberies we've seen recently out of California.)
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: WLJ on December 28, 2021, 11:37:53 AM

(Hmmm . . .  fair market value of stolen goods? In the case of a big jewelry or designer clothing & accessories heist, would that be retail price or what a fence would pay the crook? Or what he'd get at a flea market? I'm wondering about some of the flash mob "smash and grab" robberies we've seen recently out of California.)

Do you report the $2,500 the jewelry shop sells the ring for or the $50 the shop paid for it?
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: MechAg94 on December 28, 2021, 12:26:26 PM
So if you return the stolen goods the following year, can you report it as a loss or negative income?
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: WLJ on December 28, 2021, 12:32:17 PM
Or how about if you return the stolen money do you have to report any interest earned?
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: K Frame on December 29, 2021, 08:14:09 AM
Since California is now treating smash and grab looting as a non-crime, does that mean that stolen property isn't actually stolen, and thus doesn't have to be reported?
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: HeroHog on December 29, 2021, 11:49:08 PM
Watch for barred windows and doors, entryway "airlocks" where you enter, remove your mask and hood and smile for the camera before submitting your ID for scanning before being allowed entry. Exit is similar except once you are in the "airlock", your RFID tagged items, ALL of them, are scanned and matched to your receipt before you are let out.

Forgot the xray scanner on entry and exit for weapons/stolen goods.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: MechAg94 on December 30, 2021, 12:06:51 AM
Watch for barred windows and doors, entryway "airlocks" where you enter, remove your mask and hood and smile for the camera before submitting your ID for scanning before being allowed entry. Exit is similar except once you are in the "airlock", your RFID tagged items, ALL of them, are scanned and matched to your receipt before you are let out.

Forgot the xray scanner on entry and exit for weapons/stolen goods.
I was thinking they would either go online/drive through only or have a front desk where you order and someone goes and gets it off the shelf.  Primary Arms' store in Pearland, TX is like that.  They only have a handful of display items out, but there is a rack of computers on the back wall to place an order and wait for it to be picked.

Whatever way they do it, the company or employees can't stop the theft without liability and the cops won't stop it.  The choice is either to close or completely change the store. 
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: Big Hairy Bee on December 30, 2021, 12:46:19 AM
I was thinking they would either go online/drive through only or have a front desk where you order and someone goes and gets it off the shelf.  Primary Arms' store in Pearland, TX is like that.  They only have a handful of display items out, but there is a rack of computers on the back wall to place an order and wait for it to be picked.

Whatever way they do it, the company or employees can't stop the theft without liability and the cops won't stop it.  The choice is either to close or completely change the store.

Sounds like the comeback of Service Merchandise!
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: RocketMan on December 30, 2021, 09:54:04 AM
Sounds like the comeback of Service Merchandise!

Huh, I'd forgotten all about them.  Their business model would make sense for a lot of places dealing with smash and grab looting.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: 230RN on December 30, 2021, 10:03:15 AM
Isn't there a Fifth Amendment issue with this requirement?  Self incrimination?

I don't think you have to 'fess up to it, just report value of property received.  As in, like, you know, bartering profits or goods received for services rendered.   The service?  Relieving the previous owners of worry over the diamond rings and cash and other things they had just lying around.

A fair night's pay for a fair night's work.

Terry
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: Ben on December 30, 2021, 10:04:55 AM
Huh, I'd forgotten all about them.  Their business model would make sense for a lot of places dealing with smash and grab looting.

I had to look them up. We had something similar in CA, but I can't even remember the name anymore. I do remember buying a Ruger 10/22 from them though. Kind of a similar model to the S&H Green Stamp stores I guess, without the stamps.  :laugh:

I fondly remember my mom letting me browse the Green Stamp catalog, then going to the store to pick up some toy or another when we had saved up enough stamps. Got my first real chemistry set (with the good chemicals!) from there.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: RocketMan on December 30, 2021, 10:15:52 AM
I fondly remember my mom letting me browse the Green Stamp catalog, then going to the store to pick up some toy or another when we had saved up enough stamps. Got my first real chemistry set (with the good chemicals!) from there.

I have fond memories of messing around with my chemistry sets.  This thread is now seriously in danger of drifting.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: lee n. field on December 30, 2021, 10:51:10 AM
Wait what?  :O
IRS: Report stolen property as income, unless you return it the same year

Just a way to pile on more charges, when and if they finally catch the perp.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: lee n. field on December 30, 2021, 10:56:24 AM
Sounds like the comeback of Service Merchandise!

I remember a "K's Merchandise" around here.  Same business model.  Wikipedia (YMMV) sez under 20 stores, through the midwest.  I remember buying some reloading stuff there (!!), including an RCBS Uniflow powder measure that was way mislabeled.  I think I got that for around $40.

They also sold handguns.  Stopped after a smash and grab one day.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: WLJ on December 30, 2021, 11:12:14 AM
Remember waiting impatiently for purchased items to ride the belt from the back warehouse to customer pickup at Service Merchandise.
They were the go to place in town for electronics back in the day.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: Ben on December 30, 2021, 11:15:25 AM
Remember waiting impatiently for purchased items to ride the belt from the back warehouse to customer pickup at Service Merchandise.
They were the go to place in town for electronics back in the day.

I forgot about the conveyer belt! That was like waiting for your luggage at the airport.  =D
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: WLJ on December 30, 2021, 11:16:17 AM
Walmart, Circuit City, and then the internet did them in.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: Ben on December 30, 2021, 11:39:20 AM
It was bugging the hell out of me so I gazoogled "defunct catalog stores". The one by me was Best (as opposed to Best Buy).
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: K Frame on December 30, 2021, 01:57:27 PM
Wow. I'd forgotten about Best...
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: MechAg94 on December 30, 2021, 02:17:10 PM
There was a Best store in Houston.  Their catalog was pretty cool back in the 80's.  When I was little I got a digital watch (pretty sure it was from them).  It only displayed when you pushed a button.  Of course, I burned the battery up pretty fast as I kept pushing the button. 

The DAK catalog was another one we got a lot. 
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: 230RN on December 30, 2021, 03:50:53 PM
There was a Best store in Houston.  Their catalog was pretty cool back in the 80's.  When I was little I got a digital watch (pretty sure it was from them).  It only displayed when you pushed a button.  Of course, I burned the battery up pretty fast as I kept pushing the button. 

The DAK catalog was another one we got a lot. 


I wonder if that was the Texas Instruments model.  I don't think I had trouble with the battery, mine gave out when the wrist band broke.   They had some kind of goomizigah band somehow molded in to the watch itself which could not be replaced.

Sat around in a drawer keeping good time until I finally got in a desk-cleaning frenzy and tossed it out.

I guess while the circuitry had a tiny battery drain the LED display pulled a lot of current, comparatively.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: HankB on December 30, 2021, 04:50:19 PM
I remember Service Merchandise and Best Products . . . didn't Best used to be LaBelle's?

I remember S&H Green Stamp and Plaid Stamp catalog showrooms, too. One of these was in the basement of a Wieboldt's department store.

And . . . back when I was very young . . .  I also remember a store to redeem Raleigh coupons. (Raleigh was a cigarette brand my parents smoked.)

As far as digital watches go . . . the first one I remember was the Hamilton Pulsar, an LED watch. Short battery life if you checked the time frequently. A little later on, the "Sensor Trilite" came out, an LCD watch with a tritium backlight. Pricey for its day, but it showed the time continuously.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: JTHunter on January 02, 2022, 11:44:27 PM
S & H Green stamps, Top Value stamps, Circuit City, Kmart, Venture, Sears, etc.  (plays "Taps" softly)
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: HankB on January 03, 2022, 06:01:08 PM
S & H Green stamps, Top Value stamps, Circuit City, Kmart, Venture, Sears, etc.  (plays "Taps" softly)
Montgomery Ward, Comp USA, Woolworths, The Sharper Image, Arthur Treacher's, Radio Shack, Kresge's - either gone or changed so much (not for the better) as to be unrecognizable.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: Bogie on January 03, 2022, 06:11:29 PM
I knew a bartender about 25-30 years ago who collected Marlboro packs. Literally ALL of his camping, etc., gear had Marlboro logos on it.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: RoadKingLarry on January 03, 2022, 06:37:54 PM
S&H stamps was a big thing at our house when I was a kid. I also remember the folks collecting the Raleigh coupons. The last S&H outfit that I remember was in the early '80s when I my boat was at Mare Island Shipyard at Vallejo, CA. It was next door to the AT&T store where we bought our first phone after we got married.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: JTHunter on January 04, 2022, 01:12:09 PM
Montgomery Ward, Comp USA, Woolworths, The Sharper Image, Arthur Treacher's, Radio Shack, Kresge's - either gone or changed so much (not for the better) as to be unrecognizable.

Thanks for the additional memories.  Monkey Ward reminded me of Western Auto. IIRC, didn't Kresge transition into Kmart?
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: MillCreek on January 04, 2022, 01:57:28 PM
Here in the Seattle area, the home-grown catalog showroom store was Jafco, named after the founder, Sidney Jaffe.  They were bought out by Modern Merchandising in 1972, and then Best Products acquired them in 1982. All of them in Washington closed in the late 90's. 
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: HeroHog on January 05, 2022, 12:09:43 AM
I was a Sr. line mechanic for Monkey Warts once upon a time MANY years ago in the 80s. :old:
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: Cliffh on January 05, 2022, 07:24:26 PM
S&H stamps was a big thing at our house when I was a kid. I also remember the folks collecting the Raleigh coupons. The last S&H outfit that I remember was in the early '80s when I my boat was at Mare Island Shipyard at Vallejo, CA. It was next door to the AT&T store where we bought our first phone after we got married.

Hell, I probably worked on your boat!  I was doing NDT* there from '80 - '94.

*Mostly radiography, but all the other types occasionally.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: RoadKingLarry on January 06, 2022, 08:25:35 PM
Hell, I probably worked on your boat!  I was doing NDT* there from '80 - '94.

*Mostly radiography, but all the other types occasionally.

USS Haddo (SSN-604). Early Spring of 1982 to late winter 1983 or very early 1984.
Most notable incident I remember that might have been widely know around was when a yard worker lost a couple of fingers in the sail when the VLF mast was lowered without proper clearance.
Title: Re: IRS: Report stolen property as income
Post by: Cliffh on January 08, 2022, 07:42:13 PM
The timing's right, and that number sounds familiar.  Never did learn the names of the different boats, we would refer to them by their number.

I didn't hear about the guy loosing his fingers.  Ouch!  Safety rules are in place for a reason!  Wonder how large his payout was?  IIRC, the figures were $5k for a digit, $10k for an extremity.