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Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ron on January 14, 2022, 10:45:40 AM

Title: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on January 14, 2022, 10:45:40 AM
I'm seeing more and more articles and reports about possible conflict with Russia.

Will they really wag the dog before one of the next couple elections?

It's interesting how the previous administration and the current administration focused on different places as the enemy du jour.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on January 14, 2022, 02:10:56 PM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10403271/US-intelligence-Putin-stage-false-flag-attack-troops-pretext-invade.html

Quote
US has intelligence Putin will stage a 'false flag' attack on his OWN troops to set up a pretext to invade Ukraine after talks between the US and Russia collapsed

US officials accused Russia on Friday of planning 'false-flag' attacks to justify invasion of Ukraine

Agents trained in urban warfare and sabotage are preparing to hit Russian proxy forces as first step, they said

It would mimic the Russian playbook used in 2014 when it annexed the Crimean peninsula

Kiev has been on alert since Moscow moved 100,000 troops, missiles and heavy weapons close to its border 

Meanwhile, Ukrainian websites were hacked with the message 'be afraid and expect the worst'

The Kremlin denied it was preparing to launch false-flag attacks, calling the reports 'unfounded'

And Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov said Russia had 'run out of patience' with the West
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on January 14, 2022, 02:20:00 PM
Watch the news for Polish Ukrainian soldiers attacking a German Russian radio station
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on January 14, 2022, 06:40:03 PM
And it's on ABC evening news.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on January 18, 2022, 08:19:01 AM
On the heels of talk of Sweden joining NATO which I doubt they will.

Sweden drones: Sightings reported over nuclear plants and palace
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60035446

Quote
He refused to give details about the type of drone, but they have been widely described as military-style and as having large wings.
Quote
According to the Aftonbladet news site, a drone was seen over the weekend circling the parliament and government buildings, as well as the royal residence Drottningholm Palace. Drones were earlier spotted near Kiruna and Lulea airports.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on January 18, 2022, 10:10:12 AM
Well, war with Russia would be about one of the worst things imaginable.  I'm not interested in dying in a nuclear fireball.  I hope Biden isn't that stupid.   ;/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on January 18, 2022, 10:13:51 AM
Finland just ordered a bunch of F-35s last month.

Finland Orders 64 Lockheed F-35 Fighter Jets for $9.4 Billion
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2021-12-10/lockheed-f-35-jet-wins-finnish-fighter-competition-source

Poland ordered two dozen.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on January 18, 2022, 10:21:42 AM
Well, war with Russia would be about one of the worst things imaginable.  I'm not interested in dying in a nuclear fireball.  I hope Biden isn't that stupid.   ;/

I would expect a proxy war, with the US funneling money and weapons to Ukrainian insurgents and mercs.  I don't think either the US or Russia really want a war with each other.  That said, regional conflicts lead to WWI without the parties involved really wanting it to, so it can happen.

I'm sure Russia is also acutely aware of just how much they can push the US around without a meaningful response.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: 230RN on January 18, 2022, 10:24:20 AM
I've often said that, except for latter-day politics, we have more culture in common with Russia than any of the other Easterners.

Middle or Far.

But maybe I'm wrong.  Are there any Chinese Christmas ballets?



Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on January 18, 2022, 10:26:57 AM
Russia has a smaller GDP than S. Korea. Let that sink in for a moment.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on January 18, 2022, 10:49:21 AM
Russia has a smaller GDP than S. Korea. Let that sink in for a moment.

Smaller than a whole lot of countries:

https://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=65842.msg1335066#msg1335066
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on January 18, 2022, 11:37:20 AM
My trust in our governments foreign policy is close to zero.

I don't trust Putin or Russia either.

Going to war over Ukraine would be flat out stupid and not in our best interests.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on January 18, 2022, 11:39:52 AM
UK Sends A.T. Weapons to Ukraine as Russia Masses Forces
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqcS4RDADpM
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: 230RN on January 18, 2022, 01:37:10 PM
I'm talking culturally.  You guys got GDP on the brain.  Of course cultural similarity does not imply non-enemy status for ever 'n ever.  We had a lot in common with Germany, yet had to arm-wrestle them twice.  But at least there were the Christmas Truces.

I agree about the US' stability in this matter.  Looking at the line of succession, we're kinda stuck with self-righteous nincompoops until 2024 (2025).  Let's hope our midterms* put some brakes on the tomfoolery.

Terry

* On "proof:"

There is no proof without evidence.
There is no evidence without investigation.
There is no investigation without suspicion.
But suspicion without proof is paranoia.

They wrapped all that up in a nice little package,right?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on January 18, 2022, 01:44:18 PM
I'm talking culturally.  You guys got GDP on the brain.  Of course cultural similarities does not imply non-enemy status for ever 'n ever.  We had a lot in common with Germany, yet had to arm-wrestle them twice.

My GDP comment was unrelated to yours it just happened to have followed your post
Their military is way out of proportion to their GDP and I wonder how long can they sustain a prolonged war with that kind of GDP before the people back home say enough is enough.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on January 18, 2022, 02:52:41 PM
I really don't understand why Russia is upset that they might lose their only seaport on the Black Sea to NATO.

What's the big deal? Why would they look at recruiting Ukraine into NATO as a security threat?

Just because that's their border and is their only access to the Black Sea?



Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on January 18, 2022, 03:26:49 PM
https://buchanan.org/blog/biden-should-declare-nato-membership-closed-158996
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on January 18, 2022, 03:32:19 PM
I really don't understand why Russia is upset that they might lose their only seaport on the Black Sea to NATO.

What's the big deal? Why would they look at recruiting Ukraine into NATO as a security threat?

Just because that's their border and is their only access to the Black Sea?
In a sane world, that should be something that could be negotiated.  I figure Putin wants more. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on January 18, 2022, 03:41:21 PM
I'm assuming Ron is being sarcastic.

Russia's reasons for wanting influence in the Ukraine, and wanting to limit NATO's are obvious.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on January 18, 2022, 04:54:20 PM
I'm assuming Ron is being sarcastic.

Sarcastic? Who? Me?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on January 19, 2022, 08:50:29 AM
There are some oil/gas pipeline issues at work as well.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 19, 2022, 10:16:19 AM
I really don't understand why Russia is upset that they might lose their only seaport on the Black Sea to NATO.

What's the big deal? Why would they look at recruiting Ukraine into NATO as a security threat?

Just because that's their border and is their only access to the Black Sea?

But Russia does not (legally) have any seaports on the Black Sea. But they do have access to the Black Sea. Russia has extensive shoreline on the Sea of Azov, and access from the Sea of Azov to the Black Sea through the Kerch Strait.

And I'm not sure there's much "recruiting" of Ukraine into NATO. It's much more a question of Ukraine wanting very much to join NATO as their protection against Russia (for obvious reasons).
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on January 19, 2022, 10:56:12 AM
Possession is 9/10 of the law.  The Crimean Peninsula is in Russia now.  No one is going to force him to give it back, and it can't free itself.

Sevastopol is Russian.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on January 19, 2022, 11:33:28 AM
There are some oil/gas pipeline issues at work as well.

I have a feeling this this the biggest thing that Russia wants with the Ukraine. Secondly, I think it's agriculture because Ukraine has 25% of the worlds black soil reserves.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on January 19, 2022, 12:13:01 PM
I have a feeling this this the biggest thing that Russia wants with the Ukraine. Secondly, I think it's agriculture because Ukraine has 25% of the worlds black soil reserves.

Ukraine was the breadbasket of the Soviets for many decades, and Russia has not forgotten this.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on January 19, 2022, 06:23:48 PM
Hopefully more folks are like me and have sobered up, thinking more clearly after being wined, dined and taken advantage of by the warmongering neocons.

Anyone notice the Democrats have been toeing the neocon line since Obama was elected?

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: De Selby on January 19, 2022, 10:22:10 PM
Hopefully more folks are like me and have sobered up, thinking more clearly after being wined, dined and taken advantage of by the warmongering neocons.

Anyone notice the Democrats have been toeing the neocon line since Obama was elected?

They were toeing it with Clinton as well.

Why is no one reporting on the Biden family links to Ukraine and Clinton history of involvement with the government turmoil there that preceded this crisis?

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on January 19, 2022, 10:27:54 PM
Why is no one reporting on the Biden family links to Ukraine and Clinton history of involvement with the government turmoil there that preceded this crisis?

Is that a rhetorical question?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on January 20, 2022, 08:13:31 AM
They were toeing it with Clinton as well.

Why is no one reporting on the Biden family links to Ukraine and Clinton history of involvement with the government turmoil there that preceded this crisis?
All those reporters were all cancelled during the last presidential election. Literally.

Anyone here want to offer a suggestion on how getting involved in a conflict with Russia over the Ukraine is in the best interests of American citizens?

How is it in your best interest?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on January 20, 2022, 08:34:46 AM
All those reporters were all cancelled during the last presidential election. Literally.

Anyone here want to offer a suggestion on how getting involved in a conflict with Russia over the Ukraine is in the best interests of American citizens?

How is it in your best interest?

I make more money deployed than as a federal worker, and extra time deployed both makes my retirement check bigger, and moves the date I can retire and draw pay earlier.  So a decent "limited" war in Eastern Europe would let me go do logistics in a non sandy place and then retire with my full check when I'm like 51 or 52.  Also war with Russia would probably tank the stock market for a bit, so I could dump the extra cash I make into cheap stocks and mutual funds that are likely to make money in the 10 year rebound. :cool:


As for the US's best interests?  I got nothing.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on January 20, 2022, 09:04:50 AM
I make more money deployed than as a federal worker, and extra time deployed both makes my retirement check bigger, and moves the date I can retire and draw pay earlier.  So a decent "limited" war in Eastern Europe would let me go do logistics in a non sandy place and then retire with my full check when I'm like 51 or 52.  Also war with Russia would probably tank the stock market for a bit, so I could dump the extra cash I make into cheap stocks and mutual funds that are likely to make money in the 10 year rebound. :cool:

I suspect, esp at the higher levels, there are a lot of folks finding themselves in a similar position with similar perverse incentives that are in place.

The MIC is a pretty decent sized part of our economy. War historically has been used to artificially stimulate economies. A lot of people make a lot of money off of military conflicts.

The biggest potential downsides are by those in cannon fodder/pointy end of the spear roles I guess.

I don't trust our bureaucracy to make good war making decisions or health care decisions for me any more. My personal well being is pretty far down the list of priorities they take into consideration.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on January 20, 2022, 09:06:15 AM
Anyone here want to offer a suggestion on how getting involved in a conflict with Russia over the Ukraine is in the best interests of American citizens?

How is it in your best interest?

A conflict with Russia is in no one's best interest, except perhaps for Biden.  It would detract from his ongoing problems and likely boost his poll numbers, as has happened with previous White House denizens.  And he could blame it on Trump and his alleged connections with Ukraine.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: DittoHead on January 20, 2022, 09:21:12 AM
Anyone here want to offer a suggestion on how getting involved in a conflict with Russia over the Ukraine is in the best interests of American citizens?

How is it in your best interest?
The goal of our involvement now would be to try to prevent a conflict which could quickly get out of control and eventually involve us anyway in a much more significant way.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Quote from: https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/yes-you-should-care-about-ukraine
We don’t need to rehash the history of the Second World War, but suffice to say that the unspeakable horror of the conflict taught our nation a cardinal lesson—we should use our might to prevent war, not end war.
That reasoning may not be convincing but it's the most coherent I've seen.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on January 20, 2022, 09:27:17 AM
The goal of our involvement now would be to try to prevent a conflict which could quickly get out of control and eventually involve us anyway in a much more significant way.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.That reasoning may not be convincing but it's the most coherent I've seen.

That's been the warmongering neocon line for decades.

"Just trust the experts on this" doesn't work on me any longer.

The experts have a completely different set of priorities than the American people, the people that provide the soldiers they throw into the meat grinder every so often.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on January 20, 2022, 09:50:01 AM
That's been the warmongering neocon line for decades.

"Just trust the experts on this" doesn't work on me any longer.

The experts have a completely different set of priorities than the American people, the people that provide the soldiers they throw into the meat grinder every so often.
I was looking at the notion that we have to do something because it could expand to other countries.  That line has been used to both drag us into conflicts as well as stop us short of finishing conflicts. 

I don't really want Russian invading its neighbors, but I also try to remember that this is on the other side of the world right on Russia's border. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on January 20, 2022, 09:55:53 AM
There really isn't anything we can do to prevent Russia from invading Ukraine.  Whether they actually invade or not is solely up to Putin, being in practical terms a dictator running the country.  And he seems to exhibit a touch of megalomania, so he might well invade.
Our best move is to express our disapproval, but stay completely out of the conflict.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on January 23, 2022, 10:01:49 PM
Crap, I think his handlers are about to wag the dog.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on January 23, 2022, 10:45:05 PM
Looks like Biden is pulling Americans out if Ukraine and talking above ding troops to NATO countries near Ukraine. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on January 23, 2022, 11:09:14 PM
Praying I won't be feeling the need to get the glue out

(https://c.tenor.com/aiUL0UFMrJEAAAAC/airplane-wrong-week-to-stop-drinking.gif)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: kgbsquirrel on January 23, 2022, 11:50:39 PM
Watch the news for Polish Ukrainian soldiers attacking a German Russian radio station

You mean like the Russian numbers station that was just hijacked?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on January 23, 2022, 11:52:55 PM
A news report noted that Biden is contemplating sending 5000 US soldiers to Ukraine... Could we please just not involve ourselves here?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: kgbsquirrel on January 23, 2022, 11:56:08 PM
I really don't understand why Russia is upset that they might lose their only seaport on the Black Sea to NATO.

What's the big deal? Why would they look at recruiting Ukraine into NATO as a security threat?

Just because that's their border and is their only access to the Black Sea?

Check an atlas.  Russia had black sea ports before they anschlussed Crimea.  Now they have more and better black sea ports.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on January 24, 2022, 04:43:39 AM
Now they have Sevastopol and the naval support assets there.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on January 24, 2022, 07:26:08 AM
Watch the news for Polish Ukrainian soldiers attacking a German Russian radio station
You mean like the Russian numbers station that was just hijacked?

(https://i.redd.it/xwmjhvpk62b31.jpg)

And now for my next trick....
Now where did I leave that glue?

You got a link to that story?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on January 24, 2022, 08:07:54 AM
Apparently, from back during the original Crimea event, I carried over a misunderstanding about Russian access to the Black Sea.

That doesn't change the strategic significance of Sevastopol or the rest of their seaports for that matter.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 24, 2022, 09:43:05 AM

I don't really want Russian invading its neighbors, but I also try to remember that this is on the other side of the world right on Russia's border.

Is Ukraine a threat to Russia? Even if Ukraine were to join NATO, is Putin seriously claiming that NATO is going to invade Russia?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on January 24, 2022, 09:53:18 AM
Did someone mention Ukraine invading anyone?   I don't know what Putin is planning.  He could just be rattling sabers to try to force some concessions out of The Ukraine. 

As far as NATO, I would rather see NATO shrink than expand. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on January 24, 2022, 10:00:38 AM
A news report noted that Biden is contemplating sending 5000 US soldiers to Ukraine... Could we please just not involve ourselves here?

Do you have a link to this report?  If true, he's doing it to bolster his poll numbers.  Wars have been known to do that for an embattled president.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on January 24, 2022, 10:02:20 AM
Did someone mention Ukraine invading anyone?   I don't know what Putin is planning.  He could just be rattling sabers to try to force some concessions out of The Ukraine. 

That's the hope but considering how passive most NATO members have been in the past they must think something is afoot.
Putin's ace in this is his ability to turn off the natural gas to Europe and it's winter. Wasn't Trump trying to get natural gas exports to Europe going to help avoid that little problem?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on January 24, 2022, 10:03:25 AM
Do you have a link to this report?  If true, he's doing it to bolster his poll numbers.  Wars have been known to do that for an embattled president.

https://nypost.com/2022/01/23/us-draws-down-ukraine-embassy-presence-as-war-fears-mount/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on January 24, 2022, 10:08:17 AM
https://nypost.com/2022/01/23/us-draws-down-ukraine-embassy-presence-as-war-fears-mount/

Pretty much everyone else is saying "to the region".
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on January 24, 2022, 10:34:12 AM
Interesting how Ukraine's foreign ministry has said the State Department's decision to evacuate some embassy personnel from Kyiv is "premature" and an example of "excessive caution."

Edited to add that the EU is not following the US lead in evacuating embassy staff.  It appears that the US is the only big player evacuating staff.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on January 24, 2022, 10:56:34 AM

Edited to add that the EU is not following the US lead in evacuating embassy staff.  It appears that the US is the only big player evacuating staff.

I wonder how much of the evacuation is related to Afghanistan and PR?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on January 24, 2022, 11:10:31 AM
I wonder how much of the evacuation is related to Afghanistan and PR?
Quite a bit I think.  I already heard at least one radio show jokingly refer to the helicopters pulling people out of the Ukrainian embassy. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on January 24, 2022, 11:29:08 AM
Interesting:

Quote
Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
From State Dept call: “Given that the President has said military action by Russia could come at any time. The US government will not be in a position to evacuate US citizens. So US citizens, currently present in Ukraine should plan accordingly.” Arrange commercial flights.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on January 24, 2022, 02:22:04 PM
Our foreign policy has rarely been in line with the desires of the voters.

 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on January 24, 2022, 02:42:59 PM
Forget the Russians, COVID!

U.S. State Dept. website gives a second reason to avoid traveling to Ukraine (in case the threat of a Russian invasion isn’t enough)
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/01/24/u-s-state-dept-website-gives-a-second-reason-to-avoid-traveling-to-ukraine-in-case-the-threat-of-a-russian-invasion-isnt-enough/

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on January 24, 2022, 03:28:11 PM
Russian navy planning on conducting live fire exercises 150 miles off the coast of Ireland and Ireland is not a happy camper.

Quote
The area - off the west coast of Europe - is far from any of Russia's permanent naval bases, and is also near several critical transatlantic data cables, which defence experts have warned Russia could pose a risk to.

Ireland tells Russia live-fire naval exercise is 'not welcome'
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60113233
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on January 24, 2022, 04:48:26 PM
We have 8,500 troops on alert to be sent to help NATO and in other news we just put two carrier groups in the China Sea.

Hope no one bumps into the wrong thing and this all goes sideways.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: BobR on January 24, 2022, 07:16:41 PM
Pretty standard SOP, poll numbers heading into the darkest part of the basement, stock market shedding points like a Huskie sheds fur in the spring, interest rates and inflation making strides to the sky. Hey, let's divert a while. IMO, Democrats are quick to send troops into harms way, and even quicker to forget about them and their injuries when they return.

bob
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on January 24, 2022, 08:25:13 PM
We have 8,500 troops on alert to be sent to help NATO and in other news we just put two carrier groups in the China Sea.

Hope no one bumps into the wrong thing and this all goes sideways.

Taiwan Intercepts Massive Swarm Of Chinese Military Aircraft As ‘Weak’ Biden Tested Around World
https://www.dailywire.com/news/taiwan-intercepts-massive-swarm-of-chinese-military-aircraft-as-weak-biden-tested-around-world?utm_campaign=dw_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=housefile&utm_content=non_member
Quote
“The latest Chinese mission included 34 fighters plus four electronic warfare aircraft and a single bomber,” Reuters reported. “Taiwan sent combat aircraft to warn away the Chinese aircraft, while missile systems were deployed to monitor them.”
Fun times.  IMO, the US has a much stronger obligation to help Taiwan than The Ukraine. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: bedlamite on January 24, 2022, 10:13:18 PM
(https://i.redd.it/s8sr80sddqd81.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on January 25, 2022, 07:47:40 PM
A news report noted that Biden is contemplating sending 5000 US soldiers to Ukraine... Could we please just not involve ourselves here?

What would that say to our NATO alliance?  How about outside of Ukraine instead but close enough to get Russias attention
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on January 26, 2022, 09:40:52 AM
Germany "helps" Ukraine. When I read the English translation, it first sounded like they were sending 5000 troops and I was like, "Whaaaat? That's pretty ballsey!"

But no, they are actually sending 5000 helmets. Which is kind of the opposite of ballsey. They look like they're doing something, yet doing so without pissing off Russia to where they lose that energy they need.

https://www.epochtimes.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-fordert-flugabwehrraketen-deutschland-schickt-5-000-schutzhelme-a3698949.html
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: DittoHead on January 26, 2022, 12:45:02 PM
How about outside of Ukraine instead but close enough to get Russias attention

That's exactly what is under consideration. The fox news article (which the trash NYpost article is based on) makes that clear.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on January 26, 2022, 01:26:36 PM
What would that say to our NATO alliance?  How about outside of Ukraine instead but close enough to get Russias attention

Ukraine isn't part of NATO.

I suppose if it makes everyone feel better, NATO members can send equipment and troops to nearby NATO countries.  Romania, Poland, Slovakia, etc.  I doubt it will matter.  I suspect if Russia takes over  the rest of Ukraine, they will stop there regardless.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on January 26, 2022, 07:58:21 PM
https://www.rt.com/russia/547454-nato-russia-response-stoltenberg/

Quote
NATO has said it “will not compromise” on potential expansion into Ukraine, Georgia, and other former Soviet republics, as this clashes with the “core principles” of the alliance, Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg told reporters on Wednesday.

The alliance’s response, which Stoltenberg said all 30 members agreed upon, was delivered to Moscow earlier in the day by the US ambassador, alongside Washington’s separate written note.

The US has asked Russia to keep the contents of its response private.

I'm confident NATO is willing to fight down to the very last US soldier.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on January 26, 2022, 08:28:54 PM
https://www.rt.com/russia/547454-nato-russia-response-stoltenberg/

I'm confident NATO is willing to fight down to the very last US soldier.

Ain't that the truth.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on January 26, 2022, 08:44:14 PM
https://www.rt.com/russia/547454-nato-russia-response-stoltenberg/

I'm confident NATO is willing to fight down to the very last US soldier.

I am confident in that as well........oh..........well *expletive deleted*it.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on January 26, 2022, 10:01:48 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/XHNhJpR.jpg?1)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on January 26, 2022, 10:02:11 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/hA3LE55.jpg?1)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on January 26, 2022, 10:03:46 PM
I guess some memes are better than others.  Some are just okay.
(https://i.imgur.com/0j1c3cz.jpg?1)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on January 26, 2022, 10:09:45 PM
Prediction time:  What do you think will come of the Ukraine/Russia conflict?

I suspect Russia will attack, but am not at all confident about it.  If Russia were to back off now, Ukraine would just redouble its efforts to join NATO - which doesn't serve Russia's goals.  It seems that if Russia attacks and occupies Ukraine, the sanctions from the international community will be mostly economic, from NATO block members.  Russia's biggest trading partners are China, Netherlands, Germany, Belarus and Turkey.   Will China care much?  Doubt it.  The other four will, but Russia sells them lots of energy.  How much hardball can they play with that dependence?

I suppose it's possible that this move is just theater to scare NATO from even considering Ukraine as a NATO state.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on January 26, 2022, 10:16:32 PM
I guess the real question is can the world establish an order where nuclear powers cannot operate on a because I can basis? Russia has already violated the territory of many of it's neighbors and just dares the world to do anything. Can actions like that be deterred? At what point being backed into a corner would they use nukes? Russia seems to be a great test case, they have a fragile economy and three ports. Close the pipelines, close the banks, blockade the ports. Or do they do what they want? China watches, tomorrow Taiwan, next week their new colony of Africa. I don't think war in Ukraine helps a damn thing but how do we get nations to adhere to civil behavior?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on January 26, 2022, 10:29:11 PM
I guess the real question is can the world establish an order where nuclear powers cannot operate on a because I can basis? Russia has already violated the territory of many of it's neighbors and just dares the world to do anything. Can actions like that be deterred? At what point being backed into a corner would they use nukes? Russia seems to be a great test case, they have a fragile economy and three ports. Close the pipelines, close the banks, blockade the ports. Or do they do what they want? China watches, tomorrow Taiwan, next week their new colony of Africa. I don't think war in Ukraine helps a damn thing but how do we get nations to adhere to civil behavior?

I was thinking about this very topic last night.  Ultimately, the nuclear powers states can more or less do whatever they want to non-nuclear states.  They are holding all the cards.  Lets say Russia pulled a WWII Germany approach, and started eating countries.  Would the other nuclear power states really risk a nuclear war over Russia eating Ukraine?  Kazakhstan?  Belarus? ...Finland?  I don't think so.  I'm not even sure about a NATO member - would NATO actually engage in a nuclear war with Russia if they invaded, say, Poland?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on January 27, 2022, 06:12:17 PM
This is rather interesting, from a "biased news" perspective. Rather than a CNN vs Fox thing, this is US news vs European news. In this case specifically Germany, who, sad for me to say, seems to be going very soft on Russia for political /economic reasons. This story is from the Epoch Times Germany, who are pretty similar to the US Epoch Times in generally unbiased reporting.

In this article, they are talking about undue saber rattling by the US and UK, that Biden is overreacting, and even have interviews with Ukrainian officials downplaying the current crisis. Anyway, I found the non-US news report rather interesting compared to what is reported here. The article was too long for me to manually translate, so I just threw it into Google translate. While clunky, it captures the gist of the article:

Quote
While sabers are being rattled in Washington and London, Ukraine seems relaxed. Russian troop movements at the border are therefore normal. But why is this matter so hyped?
Speaking to journalists on Tuesday, US President Joe Biden threatened Russian President Vladimir Putin with serious consequences and economic sanctions if Russia invaded Ukraine. He even announced that he could imagine direct sanctions against the Russian president.

With Russian troops near the Ukraine border, Biden said this could be the "biggest invasion since World War II" and would change the world. The “Neue Zürcher Zeitung” reports that around 8,500 US soldiers have been put on increased standby so that they can be quickly transferred to Eastern Europe if necessary. A Pentagon spokesman said on Monday that the soldiers would be deployed as part of the NATO Response Force if necessary, but would not be sent directly to Ukraine.

But what is the assumption based on that a Russian invasion is imminent? Apparently not on current Ukrainian assessments.

Ukraine does not see itself in danger
The Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy recently gave the impression in a video language that there was no imminent danger: “Everything is under control. There is no reason to panic.” A peaceful solution to the Donbass conflict is being sought. His head of government, Denys Schmyhal, also sees “no threats to the functioning of our economy”. There are sufficient currency reserves to support the exchange rate of the national currency hryvnia.

On Monday, Oleksiy Danilov, secretary of the National Security Council of Ukraine, told journalists: "Today we see no evidence at all of the allegation of a large-scale attack on our country." Troop movements on the Russian side, in contrast to the West, are not a surprising matter .

This is reported, among other things, by the “Kleine Zeitung” in Austria. According to Danilev, it all started with an article in the Washington Post in mid-October. The situation in Ukraine has been difficult since 2014, said Danilov after a Security Council meeting.

Among other things, however, the USA and Great Britain are already withdrawing part of their embassy staff and family members of diplomats from Ukraine: "Precautionary measures", according to the US State Department. "Excessive caution," says the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry: "We consider such a step by the American side to be premature." The security situation has "not changed fundamentally," the ministry said in Kiev.

On the fringes of a meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels, EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell had rather reassuring words about the American personnel deduction: "I don't think we need to dramatize."

Arms shipments and geopolitics
The journalist and political scientist Ramon Schack writes on Dirk Müller's financial website "Cashkurs": "Great Britain and the USA have of course also taken the lead in arms deliveries to Ukraine, which distracts somewhat from the domestic political problems on the home front, of which both statesmen have had enough to have."

Schack also recalled that Joe Biden finally welcomed the Ukrainian President to the White House in September after a long wait, but then treated him like a supplier. Instead of supporting Ukraine's NATO membership and the Nord Stream 2 issue, Zelenskyi returned to Kiev with empty suitcases.

According to Schack, the Ukrainian President is now assuming “that his country is only acting as a pawn in this geopolitical conflict”. Sooner or later Kiev will be dropped. The neighbor to the east, Russia, remains.

Schack points to a possible scenario for the current crisis. In 2019, the pro-government RAND Corporation discussed sanctions and tactical troop deployments, such as stationing bombers and tactical nuclear weapons within striking distance of the Russian border, under the title "Overextending and Unbalancing Russia". Ukraine was said to be "exploiting Russia's greatest external weakness" and providing "deadly aid" to Ukraine. Schack explains: "Say: to deliver weapons."

Is US action driving Russia to China?
During a recent visit to Kiev, US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken highlighted the close ties between the US and Ukraine and said he wanted to use "unyielding" diplomacy to stop Russian aggression. Last Thursday in Berlin, Blinken said at a joint press conference with Germany's new foreign minister, Annalena Baerbock, "No matter which path Russia chooses, it will find the United States, Germany and our allies united."

Putin's press secretary, Dmitry Peskov, accused the US and NATO of not causing the tensions with Russia, but with their "hysteria" and "information campaign" accompanied by a multitude of "simple lies".

Schack doubts whether, in view of this development, it will be possible to force Russia out of the alliance with communist China. In the past few weeks, Moscow has registered exactly what the Kremlin thinks of the West.

https://www.epochtimes.de/politik/ausland/nur-bidens-hysterie-ukraine-sieht-wegen-russland-keinen-grund-zur-panik-a3698964.html
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on January 27, 2022, 07:08:03 PM
So when Russia ultimately doesn't invade Ukraine, Joe can take a victory lap and perhaps help his sagging poll numbers.  Is that possibly what all the fuss is about on the US side?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on January 27, 2022, 10:13:09 PM
This is rather softballing it, but Germany likes Russian natural gas.  And probably isn't real thrilled with headlines like "Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline will not open if Russia invades Ukraine, says US". 

I think Ukrainian state actions show that the government takes the situation is a little more seriously then Oleksiy is letting on.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: kgbsquirrel on January 28, 2022, 12:11:46 AM
This is rather softballing it, but Germany likes Russian natural gas.  And probably isn't real thrilled with headlines like "Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline will not open if Russia invades Ukraine, says US". 

I think Ukrainian state actions show that the government takes the situation is a little more seriously then Oleksiy is letting on.

Good thing Germany and Russia have never colluded to invade an annex a mutual neighbor...
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on January 28, 2022, 10:14:59 AM
It appears stuff from the German article is making it to the US, regarding Biden possibly blowing this up into something more than it is, and it seems to corroborate Zalensky telling Biden to calm down:

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/01/28/tweets-got-deleted-after-wh-disputed-what-cnns-anonymous-sources-said-about-bidens-call-with-zalensky/

I read a couple more kraut articles, and they continue the same theme as the first one. I was also looking at reader comments and it's interesting to see this opinion emerge multiple times: "Under Trump there seemed to be no great worries regarding Russia invading Ukraine, but now with Biden it seems Putin feels he has a free hand."

Note that most krauts did not like Trump, so lots of people thinking the above show that they also have "vicarious buyer's remorse" regarding their support of Biden.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on January 28, 2022, 02:41:47 PM
And now China is saying they are ready for war with the US if Taiwan tries to go full independent.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 15, 2022, 10:30:52 AM
The "official news" of the deep state is now accusing ZeroHedge of being a mouthpiece for Russian propaganda.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/us-accuses-financial-website-spreading-russian-propaganda-82898788

Russia! Russia! Russia!
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 15, 2022, 11:00:02 AM
ZeroHedge responds

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/now-weve-done-it-we-pissed-cia
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: K Frame on February 15, 2022, 11:13:23 AM
Dow up 470, oil down $4.50 on apparent cooling of Russia/Ukraine tensions.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 15, 2022, 11:24:04 AM
Dow up 470, oil down $4.50 on apparent cooling of Russia/Ukraine tensions.

Reports of some Russian units going back to their bases
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 15, 2022, 11:37:40 AM
Reports of some Russian units going back to their bases

So thankful for the steady hand of President Biden  =D

Putin suffers the same fate as CornPop.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: K Frame on February 15, 2022, 11:42:15 AM
I smell a Nobel Peace Prize!
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 15, 2022, 01:56:34 PM
Reports of some Russian units going back to their bases

I think it's like 10K out of 100K troops. Still, it potentially implies that the Europeans and the European news were correct about this, and that the US was overblowing things for some reason.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 15, 2022, 01:58:25 PM
Dow up 470, oil down $4.50 on apparent cooling of Russia/Ukraine tensions.


Biden and his cronies buying on the stock dip?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on February 15, 2022, 02:00:06 PM
Reports of some Russian units going back to their bases

I trust Putin less than the distance I could throw Biden.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Cliffh on February 15, 2022, 03:54:54 PM
I trust Putin less than the distance I could throw Biden.

I trust Biden less than the distance I could throw Putin.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 15, 2022, 04:38:26 PM
I think it's like 10K out of 100K troops. Still, it potentially implies that the Europeans and the European news were correct about this, and that the US was overblowing things for some reason.
Or Biden worked with Putin (one used the other?) to stir things up and raise gas prices for whatever reason.  Both are happy.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on February 15, 2022, 05:09:41 PM
I trust Biden less than the distance I could throw Putin.

You trust him more than I do.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on February 15, 2022, 06:32:38 PM
Next week he will call his buddy Xi and say hey the Russian thing didn't work how about you deploy your entire navy just off the coast of Taiwan.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on February 15, 2022, 06:48:48 PM
I think Biden just publically committed the US to war if Russia invades Ukraine.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on February 15, 2022, 06:53:38 PM
I think Biden just publically committed the US to war if Russia invades Ukraine.

I saw it as a Ukraine greenlight. We will defend nato.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 15, 2022, 07:02:58 PM
I saw it as a Ukraine greenlight. We will defend nato.

Yup, Brandon has a crappy poker face.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on February 15, 2022, 08:41:55 PM
Pretty sure our country wants war there more than anybody. Distracts from home, amps the economy, gives an excuse to ignore Taiwan getting rolled, etc.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on February 15, 2022, 09:38:16 PM
Pretty sure our country wants war there more than anybody. Distracts from home, amps the economy, gives an excuse to ignore Taiwan getting rolled, etc.

Well I'm one American that doesn't want a war there.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 16, 2022, 03:13:04 PM
So much for the reports

Ukraine crisis: No sign of Russian de-escalation, Nato chief says
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60407010
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on February 16, 2022, 04:56:15 PM
I heard on the news, I wish I could remember where, that cyber attacks on the Ukrainian banks have begun.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on February 16, 2022, 06:48:44 PM
I heard on the news, I wish I could remember where, that cyber attacks on the Ukrainian banks have begun.

Meh, that’s just Trudeau keeping Ukrainian money out of canuckistan.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on February 17, 2022, 11:43:01 AM
Meh, that’s just Trudeau keeping Ukrainian money out of canuckistan.

I didn't think Trudeau did this. Apparently, some shelling in Ukraine has happened. I get this feeling that could turn into something similar to the Korean War.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/shelling-breaks-out-east-ukraine-west-moscow-dispute-troop-moves-2022-02-17/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 17, 2022, 01:39:08 PM
Another article on the shelling:

https://www.theepochtimes.com/artillery-shelling-reported-in-east-ukraine-amid-conflicting-statements_4282710.html
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 18, 2022, 07:49:56 AM
Well, I guess the border czar is finally going to the actual border. Just the wrong one.

Quote
Harris flies to Europe to help secure Ukraine border as Biden stays behind

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/02/17/vp-kamala-harris-says-shes-on-scene-and-working-to-secure-the-border-no-not-that-border/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on February 18, 2022, 08:47:50 AM
I'm still undecided as to whether Harris is the first or the second most useless pantsuit wearing critter on the planet.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 18, 2022, 09:08:48 AM
I'm still undecided as to whether Harris is the first or the second most useless pantsuit wearing critter on the planet.


Take your pick.
One is flat out evil.
The other a bumbling idiot who aspires to be the first.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 18, 2022, 06:16:22 PM
Huge gas pipeline explosion in the Gulf of Tonkan eastern Ukraine.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 20, 2022, 08:37:11 PM
Russian Military Has ‘Received Orders Now To Proceed With The Invasion’ Of Ukraine, Report Says
https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-russian-military-has-received-orders-now-to-proceed-with-the-invasion-of-ukraine-report-says
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 21, 2022, 03:32:33 PM
Hey Brandon, the 80's called...

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/02/21/previous-tweets-from-foreign-policy-expert-joe-biden-are-making-the-rounds-as-putin-sets-goal-of-putting-the-ussr-back-together/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on February 21, 2022, 04:02:02 PM
Hey Brandon, the 80's called...

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/02/21/previous-tweets-from-foreign-policy-expert-joe-biden-are-making-the-rounds-as-putin-sets-goal-of-putting-the-ussr-back-together/

More like 1939 and a different madman trying to reclaim territory.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on February 21, 2022, 05:17:59 PM
I've often thought that Putin's ultimate political goal was to reassemble the Soviet Union, with him as dictator.  Starting to look as though I was right.
And I have always thought he is a dangerous individual, and no friend of freedom and liberty for Russian citizens.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on February 21, 2022, 06:28:09 PM
Sounds like anschlussky is on,  vlad sending peacekeepers to the breakaway parts.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 21, 2022, 07:43:22 PM
Well at least I'll be able to get a beer in Poland.  Better than Iraq or Kuwait.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: BobR on February 21, 2022, 07:46:36 PM
I've often thought that Putin's ultimate political goal was to reassemble the Soviet Union, with him as dictator.  Starting to look as though I was right.
And I have always thought he is a dangerous individual, and no friend of freedom and liberty for Russian citizens.

So, Putin is just trying to get the band back together, so to say.

bob
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 21, 2022, 09:03:38 PM
Well *expletive deleted*it

Live Putin orders troops into eastern Ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60454795
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 22, 2022, 12:11:46 AM
"Donetsk" is just Russian for Sudetenland.



(ETA: of course . . . https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/22/oil-prices-jump-as-tensions-between-russia-and-ukraine-escalate.html)

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 22, 2022, 08:07:14 AM
Well, Brandon did say that he wasn't worried about "minor incursions". Putin took him at his word.

I see that China is threatening sanctions against us if we interfere. That could get interesting. It's also embarrassing, as it's China letting us know we're not the tough guy on the block anymore - they are. Whatever you think of Trump, China never would have threatened sanctions against us if he were in right now. Or at least they would have backed down after Trump told them what his scorched Earth economic response would be if they did it. For that matter, there likely wouldn't be ruskie troops in Ukraine, and the Nordstream wouldn't be factoring in as a bargaining chip.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 22, 2022, 08:12:19 AM
Oh, and the MSM is blaming Trump for allowing Nordstream.

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/30012022/climate-nord-stream-2-russia-ukraine/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on February 22, 2022, 08:23:33 AM
Vlad is dusting off the same playbook he used in Georgia, and in the Crimean peninsula. His timing is impeccable; we have a senile old man "leading" the U.S., Boris in the U.K. is fully occupied trying to stay in office, Merkel is gone from Germany, and Macron is ... well, Macron. The president of Ukraine said over the weekend that the west is facing karma for having allowed the annexation of Crimea to go unanswered, and I think he is correct.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 22, 2022, 08:32:21 AM
I agree with you and him.  The west has made it clear they weren't going to war over the Ukraine, and Putin decided whatever sanctions might be coming are worth it.

I guess we'll see if he stops, or starts eying the Balkans.  Or if something happens to drag more countries into it.  Does everyone in Europe know the location of all their Archdukes and heirs?

Realistically if the Powers That Be decide they want a war, they're going to get their war.  Logic, reason, democracy, and our wishes be damned.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 22, 2022, 09:06:14 AM
I think the establishment types have no problem with low level wars in poor countries where there is high profit and little change of it escalating.  I wonder if they are fearful of a larger conflict or they just identify with foreign dictators and tend to give them a lot of leeway.  Part of it may be they are not near as smart as they think they are and those dictators manipulate them easily. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 22, 2022, 09:17:10 AM
Well, this should be interesting:

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/02/22/after-germany-put-nord-stream-2-on-hold-medvedev-warns-of-e2-000-for-1-000-cubic-meters-of-natural-gas/

How do you like solar power now, you stupid krauts?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 22, 2022, 09:23:16 AM
Don't worry, Brandon and gang made sure the US has plenty of excess to pick up the slack.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on February 22, 2022, 09:45:54 AM
Hmmm ...

https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/world/defying-west-putin-orders-troops-to-ukraine-rebel-regions/ar-AAU8rKm

Quote
In his address, Putin repeatedly suggested Ukraine was essentially part of Russia.

He accused Kyiv of persecuting Russian speakers and of preparing a "blitzkrieg" against the breakway regions of of Donetsk and Lugansk in Ukraine's east.

Good golly, Miss Molly! Isn't that exactly what Putin has done against any regions that have tried to break away from Mother Russia? (Chechnya.) He's not exactly occupying the moral high ground here.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on February 22, 2022, 09:48:38 AM
He pulled the blame Canada deal on them. Ukraine, they’re not a real country anyway!


So how long does Taiwan have? Olympics are over, the world is preoccupied and no one is home in DC.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 22, 2022, 09:57:56 AM
So Brandon is only doing sanctions on the breakaway regions of Ukraine, and not on Russia proper?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 22, 2022, 10:06:08 AM
Oh, look! Our state department has ramped up social media warfare against the ruskies.  ;/

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/02/22/u-s-embassy-in-kyiv-answers-putins-invasion-of-ukraine-with-a-meme/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 22, 2022, 10:09:51 AM
Biden is threatening to unfriend Putin on facebook
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 22, 2022, 11:11:38 AM
The Washington Post is on it:

https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/02/22/yes-the-headline-is-real-wapos-attempt-to-make-biden-look-tough-against-putin-while-babbling-about-trump-really-fails-spectacularly/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 22, 2022, 11:25:22 AM
So Brandon is only doing sanctions on the breakaway regions of Ukraine, and not on Russia proper?
Biden should try some reverse psychology.  Since sanctions aren't working well, he should lift some sanctions to see if that works.  Also, Russia has too many guns and ammo.  Lift sanctions on them so those can be shipped to the US. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 22, 2022, 11:43:39 AM
Putin is going to do this and he knows darn well there is nothing anyone is going to do about it beyond exercising their mouths.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on February 22, 2022, 11:50:34 AM
I'm more worried about how the foolish dementia-addled crook in the White House will respond.  Will he drag us into a shooting war?  He is not in any way equipped to deal with serious foreign policy issues.  And the advisors in his administration are idiots, as well.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 22, 2022, 11:53:54 AM
I'm more worried about how the foolish dementia-addled crook in the White House will respond.  Will he drag us into a shooting war?  He is not in any way equipped to deal with serious foreign policy issues.  And the advisors in his administration are idiots, as well.

Sorry, but according to Mathew Dowd, you are now a traitor to your country for saying that.


https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/02/22/matthew-dowd-plays-the-dissent-is-treason-card-over-criticism-of-joe-biden-on-russia-and-ukraine/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on February 22, 2022, 12:05:37 PM
Taiwan better lube up.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 22, 2022, 12:08:54 PM
Sorry, but according to Mathew Dowd, you are now a traitor to your country for saying that.


https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/02/22/matthew-dowd-plays-the-dissent-is-treason-card-over-criticism-of-joe-biden-on-russia-and-ukraine/

During the Obama years they always threw in a charge of racism as well.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on February 22, 2022, 12:54:04 PM
During the Obama years they always threw in a charge of racism as well.

That's a given now because everything is racist.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on February 22, 2022, 01:45:07 PM
I'll tell you one thing this is good for: making my retirement accounts take a dump.  I am down around $ 60K from the beginning of the year and the rate of decline has picked up speed over the past couple of weeks due to the pending war.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 22, 2022, 01:47:46 PM
Up your Raytheon and Honeywell holdings. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 22, 2022, 01:49:36 PM
Up your Raytheon and Honeywell holdings.

I'm buying some more AVAV.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 22, 2022, 01:50:09 PM
That's a given now because everything is racist.

Everything white people do or have done is racist
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on February 22, 2022, 02:11:39 PM
Troopson the move.

 https://funker530.com/video/witness-footage-russia-invades-eastern-ukraine-fnn-32/?fbclid=IwAR30gLXOLzWIgjDsxvQtpIQQbukE7T6cZ1mHdbwNBrldYrGdpOEbXH7EbQU (https://funker530.com/video/witness-footage-russia-invades-eastern-ukraine-fnn-32/?fbclid=IwAR30gLXOLzWIgjDsxvQtpIQQbukE7T6cZ1mHdbwNBrldYrGdpOEbXH7EbQU)

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on February 22, 2022, 05:57:13 PM
Just had A-10's go over fast and low. Hope we don't wind up in the middle of this crap.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on February 22, 2022, 06:47:05 PM
Just had A-10's go over fast and low. Hope we don't wind up in the middle of this crap.

Damned if we do, damned if we don’t. Probably to late to not pull a chamberlain but there do need to be actual red lines in the world. If Russia is intent on remaking the ussr against the will of the client states at some point that demands action. No pipelines, strangle their few ports probably by refusing entry to any shipping line that deals with the Russians or proxies. If the security Council cannot be disbanded leave the U.N. and start another organization. Complete economic smothering, not targeted sanctions.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 22, 2022, 07:00:40 PM
What's the going rate on Hunter's paintings now?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on February 22, 2022, 07:20:35 PM
Joe threw up some sanctions on Russia today.  Not sure if that will make a difference to Putin though.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: De Selby on February 22, 2022, 08:18:02 PM
Damned if we do, damned if we don’t. Probably to late to not pull a chamberlain but there do need to be actual red lines in the world. If Russia is intent on remaking the ussr against the will of the client states at some point that demands action. No pipelines, strangle their few ports probably by refusing entry to any shipping line that deals with the Russians or proxies. If the security Council cannot be disbanded leave the U.N. and start another organization. Complete economic smothering, not targeted sanctions.

How would US citizens benefit from this course of action?

Tucker Carlson makes a good point about Ukraine connections to the Biden family. The wealth they’ve made off Ukrainian government lobbying in the US has to give pause to anyone considering intervention.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 22, 2022, 08:19:33 PM
Damned if we do, damned if we don’t. Probably to late to not pull a chamberlain but there do need to be actual red lines in the world. If Russia is intent on remaking the ussr against the will of the client states at some point that demands action. No pipelines, strangle their few ports probably by refusing entry to any shipping line that deals with the Russians or proxies. If the security Council cannot be disbanded leave the U.N. and start another organization. Complete economic smothering, not targeted sanctions.

I'm not sure Europe could actually do that, energy-wise.  Or if it did manage to cut off Russia, it would hand even more power to the screaming beards.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on February 22, 2022, 08:25:10 PM
How would US citizens benefit from this course of action?

Tucker Carlson makes a good point about Ukraine connections to the Biden family. The wealth they’ve made off Ukrainian government lobbying in the US has to give pause to anyone considering intervention.

We don’t have to replay 1917 or 1941 where we should have been taking decisive action far sooner if we were going to act at all. China and Russia will own the world if there are no checks on their aggressive behaviors.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: De Selby on February 23, 2022, 06:10:17 AM
We don’t have to replay 1917 or 1941 where we should have been taking decisive action far sooner if we were going to act at all. China and Russia will own the world if there are no checks on their aggressive behaviors.

Why is the former capital of the Russian empire the line? Surely Russia not wanting Ukraine in nato is not a green light for capturing all of Europe.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 23, 2022, 06:53:27 AM
Not wanting Ukraine in NATO =/= invading Ukraine themselves.

I am not mongering for a war of any sort, but it's worth remembering Putin has said several times as over the last 20 years he wants all the old SSR's back under the Russian flag.  I see no reason not to believe him that that is his goal.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: De Selby on February 23, 2022, 07:36:42 AM
Not wanting Ukraine in NATO =/= invading Ukraine themselves.

I am not mongering for a war of any sort, but it's worth remembering Putin has said several times as over the last 20 years he wants all the old SSR's back under the Russian flag.  I see no reason not to believe him that that is his goal.

Thats a limited goal however - what is actually bad for American citizens if he does that? What do we lose?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on February 23, 2022, 08:01:03 AM
We lose the chance to act before it is too late. This is a greenlight for a return to the days of boundary change by force. Although probably too late, we sat on our hands for Crimea. The Budapest accord between us, Britain, Russia is dead letter. The UN might as well not exist if two of the five permanent security Council members are leading a new world domination. The definite end of the post WWII peaceful period.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 23, 2022, 08:11:08 AM
Thats a limited goal however - what is actually bad for American citizens if he does that? What do we lose?

Well, when he hits the Balkans we are obligated by treaty to intervene.  If it's going to happen anyways, why not nip it in the bud early?

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 23, 2022, 08:45:02 AM
I'm amazed that anyone here thinks it is a good idea or even any of our business what happens between Ukraine and Russia.

Canada goes full jackboot and Mexico is facilitating the southern invasion of our border...crickets.

We have met the globalist enemies of America and it is the citizens of the USA.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 23, 2022, 08:50:57 AM
Interesting tangent:

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/02/23/cnn-guest-makes-a-pretty-good-argument-for-the-2nd-amendment/

I wonder if we'll see more lefties saying "yay guns" for Ukraine while continuing to try and take ours away?

It also has me wondering what arms are in Ukrainian citizens' hands? Are they being issued selective fire stuff to keep at home?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 23, 2022, 09:03:55 AM
Just what is our direct national interest in Ukraine?

Why are we more concerned about Russian expansion than the countries of Europe?

Time to pull the plug on the empire guys. Being a nation is good enough.

If we have to go toe to toe with a first world enemy we better get our own house in order.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 23, 2022, 09:10:18 AM
I'm not sure Europe could actually do that, energy-wise.  Or if it did manage to cut off Russia, it would hand even more power to the screaming beards.
One thing that would help a great deal is to lower gas prices and turn the US back into a natural gas exporter.  That would cut some of Russia's income and give them some limited competition in the European energy market.  Biden should reinstate all the Trump energy policies, but I really doubt that will happen.

Beyond that, I don't see much else we can do.  We already have sanctions on Russia.  Not sure if it is too late to remove some of the pipeline expertise that Biden authorized earlier.  IMO, European nations should be the ones to take a stand on this and they don't seem very interested.  That is one of the reasons I think NATO is more useless than it ought to be.  Too many members contribute very little and likely would not participate if real fighting broke out. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 23, 2022, 09:14:52 AM
Truckers fill Moscow and peacefully protest government actions.

Putin declares martial law.

Putin freezes and seizes all donated funds as well as the protestors personal accounts.

Putin hauls the protesters vehicles away and the government says vehicles will be auctioned off.

Putin arrests over a hundred protesters and hold them without bail.

Putin and his government spread disinformation and propaganda about the protesters.

What does the US State Department have to say? The US media?

Tyranny on our northern border, tyranny in our own government, why is anyone thinking about going to war in Europe?

Hard Pass.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 23, 2022, 09:21:07 AM
Just what is our direct national interest in Ukraine?

Why are we more concerned about Russian expansion than the countries of Europe?

Time to pull the plug on the empire guys. Being a nation is good enough.

If we have to go toe to toe with a first world enemy we better get our own house in order.
That part scares me a little bit.  Even in a limited war, we would get hurt pretty good even in victory.  Our likely adversaries are good enough to take advantage of our normal strategies and we have been fighting 3rd world terrorists for the last 20 years.  I don't know how well we are training to fight 1st world conflicts these days.  Looking at WWII, we took a lot of lumps before we gained the upper hand and even then we were fortunate not to take more losses. 

There were articles last year about mock military exercises in Great Britain where our units got annihilated by the British.  From what I heard, they used signals intelligence to locate our command and control, took it out with artillery and rockets and them mopped up the individual units.  The information was all unofficial and disputed I may have misinterpreted the information.  It just didn't sound good. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 23, 2022, 09:22:59 AM
Truckers fill Moscow and peacefully protest government actions.

Putin freezes and seizes all donated funds as well as the protestors personal accounts.

Putin hauls the protesters vehicles away and the government says vehicles will be auctioned off.

Putin arrests over a hundred protesters and hold them without bail.

Putin and his government spread disinformation and propaganda about the protesters.

What does the State Department have to say?

Tyranny on our northern border, tyranny in our own government, why is anyone thinking about going to war in Europe?

Hard Pass.
Wrong country.  That is up there in the People's Republic of Canada.   
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 23, 2022, 09:24:31 AM
Wrong country.  That is up there in the People's Republic of Canada.   
I embellished my post a little more for your guys enjoyment and edification.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on February 23, 2022, 09:29:24 AM
Even with a limited war we would lose more lives in one day then we did in 20 years of the sand.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 23, 2022, 09:31:55 AM
I'm amazed that anyone here thinks it is a good idea or even any of our business what happens between Ukraine and Russia.

I didn't say it was a good idea, I just said I could see what was coming down the road.  I actually don't think anyone in the west cares enough about Ukraine to actually go to war, even if it were a good idea.  I suspect we are going to let Russia take at least some chunks of Ukraine if not the whole thing.  It is what it is.  If I were going to bet I'd say Russia will look back to finish the job of conquering Georgia next.  After that things get stickier.  If Ukraine falls and Belarus is already basically under control that puts Russia right on the borders of Poland (former Warsaw Pact) and Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia (Former SSRs).  Those countries are all NATO members, and Lithuania and Latvia have large Expat and ethnic populations in the US to raise a fuss, as well as US trained and educated people in positions of power in their respective countries.  I suspect that even a "minor" incursion in any of those countries would be met with US military force.  I don't know if Russia believes that though.

That also doesn't take into account that even if we want to stay out of the Russia-Ukraine thing, accidents happen and there are a lot of US and Allied troops and equipment in close proximity to where the fighting will be.  To quote "Hunt for Red October"
Quote
It would be well for your government to consider that having your ships and ours, your aircraft and ours, in such proximity... is inherently DANGEROUS. Wars have begun that way, Mr. Ambassador.
  We got closer to shooting it out with Russia in Syria than I think most people realize.

And as previously mentioned letting folks just conquer territory they want sets an example, one I'm sure an aggressive China is paying attention to.  Much like Ukraine, I don't know if we are willing to go to war over Taiwan (whether that is a good idea or not is a separate discussion)  But we have Mutual Defense treaties with The Philippines, South Korea, and Japan, all of which are in the crosshairs if China starts expanding territory instead of just influence.

Do all of those things mean war is a good idea?  No. But it's worth being aware of the shitstorm coming down the road so we may try and dodge at least some of it.  It is in the US national interest not to be a second or third tier country in a world being carved up by Sino-Russian expansionism. 

Perhaps we'll get lucky and find out that Kiev managed to keep an old Soviet nuke, and they'll return it to the Kremlin.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on February 23, 2022, 09:52:50 AM
War certainly is not a great idea. However no one said empire. I certainly am not a globalist enemy of this country. We cannot just be a nation. Isolationist utopian Americans directly bought us ww2. We wanted to be world leaders after ww1 and then abdicated. Because Mr. He kept us out of war did so damn good. Keep living in your libertarian fantasy land where all nations are equivalent and it’s none of my business. When the real empire builders get done devouring the world their eyes will set on North America. We defend our interest now or be unable to later.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 23, 2022, 12:37:09 PM
War certainly is not a great idea. we agree
However no one said empire.we are functionally an empire, I said it
I certainly am not a globalist enemy of this country.then take care not to do the bidding of the globalists
We cannot just be a nation wrong, we can.
Isolationist utopian Americans directly bought us ww2. nonsense, FDR made damn sure we got involved
We wanted to be world leaders after ww1 and then abdicated.what's this we? long before my time
Because Mr. He kept us out of war did so damn good. Keep living in your libertarian fantasy land I'm not a libertarian
where all nations are equivalent and it’s none of my business. It is literally none of your business what happens between Russia and Ukraine, you have zero say in the matter

When the real empire builders get done devouring the world their eyes will set on North America.I'm seeing one empire right now that sticks its military nose into everyone's business, us

We defend our interest now or be unable to later.making the world safe for globo/homo?

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on February 23, 2022, 03:34:51 PM
At what point does China whack Taiwan while Joes trying to be tough on Russia for What they’re doing to Ukraine?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 23, 2022, 04:50:32 PM
War certainly is not a great idea. However no one said empire. I certainly am not a globalist enemy of this country. We cannot just be a nation. Isolationist utopian Americans directly bought us ww2. We wanted to be world leaders after ww1 and then abdicated. Because Mr. He kept us out of war did so damn good. Keep living in your libertarian fantasy land where all nations are equivalent and it’s none of my business. When the real empire builders get done devouring the world their eyes will set on North America. We defend our interest now or be unable to later.

I can agree with the sentiment, I am just not sure a nation in the middle of Asia on the border of Russia is where we want to draw the line.  Our NATO allies yes, but not there.  It would have helped if people like Biden in this country hadn't been playing selfish political games in the Ukraine for the last 15 years.  It would also help if we hadn't been bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq for the last 20 years.  I don't know if we are ready for it. 

On the other stuff, just my opinion:  (Might be a good side discussion.)  =)
1.  We were never in a position to stop WWII from happening.  That goes to Britain and France among others.  I don't know how much influence we really had in Europe.  We had taken a bunch of diplomatic steps against Japan over their invasion of China and elsewhere. 
2.  After WWI, we elected to maintain a decent navy first.  That was where the military funding went.  I don't think anyone would have accepted maintaining a sizable army after WWI in addition to the navy. 
3.  President Wilson wanted to be a world leader after WWI.  I don't think anyone else was interested since the treaty was not ratified.  IMO, the League of Nations would have been more useless than the UN is today.  I don't think it would have prevented anything if it still existed by the late 30's. 
4.  I don't know how much influence the US had in the outcome and treaties of WWI.  I don't know what it would have taken to keep the seeds of WWII from being planted. 
5.  I have heard one of our goals in setting up the Washington Naval Treaty after WWI was the split up Great Britain and Japan who were fairly close prior to that.  I am curious if they would have still had good relations before WWII once Japan started invading China.  The need to get oil and other resources is part of the reason they attacked us.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 23, 2022, 08:59:29 PM
That we can have an informed opinion on the matter presupposes we actually know what is really going on.

We are on a need to know basis and it has been determined we don't need to know.

My default is no military action, no war, unless it can be clearly demonstrated that it is necessary for the security of the USA.

The politicians and top military brass burned through all the good will and any trust I used to have in them.

Why do we consistently keep believing and giving the benefit of the doubt to demonstrable liars?   
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on February 23, 2022, 10:13:59 PM
ABC news just broke in to announce the start of an apparent invasion.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on February 23, 2022, 10:55:59 PM
Yep cruise misses and bombing has begun along with more cyber attacks.  Russia went all in and threatened anyone who thinks of intervening
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on February 23, 2022, 11:04:01 PM
My read on Ukraine.  Thankfully we’re not Ukrainian.  I don’t think this will impact us much here.  Stock market will be volatile.  Gas prices will spike.  But as long as Biden’s handlers don’t do something galacticly stupid we will see little meaningful effect.  If Biden’s handlers decide to invade Ukraine to push out the Russians, or something comparably idiotic it could go pear shaped in very unpredictable ways.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on February 23, 2022, 11:16:59 PM
My read on Ukraine.  Thankfully we’re not Ukrainian.  I don’t think this will impact us much here.  Stock market will be volatile.  Gas prices will spike.  But as long as Biden’s handlers don’t do something galacticly stupid we will see little meaningful effect.  If Biden’s handlers decide to invade Ukraine to push out the Russians, or something comparably idiotic it could go pear shaped in very unpredictable ways.

Well they haven't gotten anything right so far so I plan on the worst case.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 23, 2022, 11:20:54 PM
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-30-2017/NrF3KN.gif)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on February 23, 2022, 11:23:51 PM
Russian paratroopers on ground now in Kiev airport.

FUNKER530 has live feeds going on right now with constant updates.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 23, 2022, 11:24:23 PM
What a *expletive deleted*ing jackass

Quote
    Kyiv and Kharkiv are being bombed. The largest invasion on our planet since WW2. Republicans are rooting for the Russians. God be with Ukraine and democracy.

    — Rep. Eric Swalwell (@RepSwalwell) February 24, 2022
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/02/23/dem-rep-eric-swalwell-knows-which-side-republicans-are-rooting-for-as-kyiv-and-kharkiv-are-being-bombed/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on February 23, 2022, 11:27:37 PM
He needs a swift kick in the nuts for that comment
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on February 23, 2022, 11:31:18 PM
He needs a swift kick in the nuts for that comment

Why stop at one?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on February 23, 2022, 11:32:25 PM
Live updates from inside Ukraine.

 https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 23, 2022, 11:45:09 PM
Oil over $100 a barrel
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 23, 2022, 11:52:16 PM

Joy Reid didn't want to be outdone

MSNBC's Joy Reid: Republicans want a 'White Christian autocracy'
Reid argued Republicans support Russia and Vladimir Putin over the United States
https://www.foxnews.com/media/msnbc-joy-reid-republicans-want-white-christian-autocracy
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 24, 2022, 12:09:39 AM
... and Pelosi can't tell the difference between Ukraine and Hungary:

https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1496537971474014213
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 24, 2022, 12:24:08 AM

So . . . no more Russian ammo for a while, I suppose.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: kgbsquirrel on February 24, 2022, 03:12:17 AM
That we can have an informed opinion on the matter presupposes we actually know what is really going on.

We are on a need to know basis and it has been determined we don't need to know.

My default is no military action, no war, unless it can be clearly demonstrated that it is necessary for the security of the USA.

The politicians and top military brass burned through all the good will and any trust I used to have in them.

Why do we consistently keep believing and giving the benefit of the doubt to demonstrable liars?

We've been conditioned to do so by media.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: K Frame on February 24, 2022, 07:20:27 AM
"But as long as Biden’s handlers don’t do something galacticly stupid we will see little meaningful effect."

So, we're completely *expletive deleted*ed, then.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 24, 2022, 07:59:01 AM
I haven't heard, what are Germany, France and Britain saying and wanting to do about this? Let me guess without hearing a thing. Nothing ...

This is Obama/Bidens fault. The color revolution installing the western puppet government happened on their watch. Remember when Obama said there isn't anything Biden couldn't f up? I suspect Ukraine has been his personal project all along. Joe was just trying to build Ukraine back better.


Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 24, 2022, 08:00:00 AM
Quote
Russian President Vladimir Putin threatened 'consequences you have never seen' to any country that interferes in Ukraine

We used to have a guy in charge that said the same kind of thing, which likely kept this guy in check. Brandon is just going to stand there, drooling.

Given the lopsidedness, I'm not sure how long Ukraine can hold out on their own (not saying we should get involved, just stating the lopsidedness). I suppose one thing that could help Ukraine is that Putin wants to absorb them, not destroy them and their infrastructure. That could mean Ukrainians with rifles could make a difference.

(https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2022/02/1862/1048/ALL_CUSTOM_FS_Ukraine_Russia_Military_Head_to_Head.png?ve=1&tl=1)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 24, 2022, 08:13:02 AM
Putin is getting rid of our (probably) CIA stooges on his border while we ignore the CCP and WEF globalist stooges running Canada right on our border.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 24, 2022, 08:15:46 AM
Interesting comments on the profitability of this for Putin. Had Brandon not shut down our fossil fuel capabilities, this would not be as profitable for Putin, and we would have been in a position to provide oil exports to others. I just now heard on the TV that as of yesterday, we were still buying 700 million barrels of oil a month from Russia. If part of our sanctions are cutting that off, gasoline is really gonna go up here.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/02/24/russia-feels-no-pain-just-profit-with-the-price-of-gold-and-oil-rising-russia-is-profiting-off-of-its-invasion-of-ukraine/

I also heard something on the TV that while a little tinfoily, did get me thinking: Once we go hard on sanctions, the ruskie cyberguys will start hitting us, and it was recommended to start printing paper statements of your bank accounts and increase the security of your critical accounts, including frequent password changes. I do two-factor on all my financial stuff, but paranoid or not, I kind of think it's a good idea to print out my current financial statements today.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 24, 2022, 08:19:29 AM
What a *expletive deleted*ing jackass
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/02/23/dem-rep-eric-swalwell-knows-which-side-republicans-are-rooting-for-as-kyiv-and-kharkiv-are-being-bombed/

That guy needs to be booted out of Congress.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/02/24/washington-free-beacon-eric-swalwell-received-max-campaign-donations-from-nord-stream-2s-top-lobbyist/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 24, 2022, 08:59:30 AM
I haven't heard, what are Germany, France and Britain saying and wanting to do about this? Let me guess without hearing a thing. Nothing ...

This is Obama/Bidens fault. The color revolution installing the western puppet government happened on their watch. Remember when Obama said there isn't anything Biden couldn't f up? I suspect Ukraine has been his personal project all along. Joe was just trying to build Ukraine back better.
We know Biden and his family were using the Ukraine as their personal piggy bank of corrupt dealings.  I am sure they weren't the only elites with corrupt dealing there. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 24, 2022, 09:01:43 AM
We used to have a guy in charge that said the same kind of thing, which likely kept this guy in check. Brandon is just going to stand there, drooling.

Given the lopsidedness, I'm not sure how long Ukraine can hold out on their own (not saying we should get involved, just stating the lopsidedness). I suppose one thing that could help Ukraine is that Putin wants to absorb them, not destroy them and their infrastructure. That could mean Ukrainians with rifles could make a difference.

(https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2022/02/1862/1048/ALL_CUSTOM_FS_Ukraine_Russia_Military_Head_to_Head.png?ve=1&tl=1)

How many of those Russian military assets are actually there around the Ukraine versus at other Russian bases far away?

I am am sure Putin is using enough.  The question will be how well the Ukrainian military is prepared for this and if they put up a fight. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 24, 2022, 09:06:50 AM
How many of those Russian military assets are actually there around the Ukraine versus at other Russian bases far away?

I am am sure Putin is using enough.  The question will be how well the Ukrainian military is prepared for this and if they put up a fight.

I mean, obviously Russia's assets aren't all there, but they're the ones with plenty to spare. They just reported that Ukraine's air defenses have already been essentially nullified.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 24, 2022, 09:21:03 AM
Just did a quick perusal of EU news outlets, they don't seem to be very worried about Russia but are talking sanctions. Talk of taking in refugees is also prominent.

This will be a 1, 2 week story I bet.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 24, 2022, 09:39:31 AM
I mean, obviously Russia's assets aren't all there, but they're the ones with plenty to spare. They just reported that Ukraine's air defenses have already been essentially nullified.
I know that, but some of the media show slides like that as if it is a video game and they are all going to fight. 

They did the same thing with nuclear weapons numbers during the cold war in the 1980's.  Those at least theoretically could have been used. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 24, 2022, 09:40:43 AM
Just did a quick perusal of EU news outlets, they don't seem to be very worried about Russia but are talking sanctions. Talk of taking in refugees is also prominent.

This will be a 1, 2 week story I bet.
Of course, it won't necessarily be Ukrainian refugees. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 09:42:12 AM
Quote
Dan Crenshaw
@DanCrenshawTX
·
18h
We import 595,000 barrels of oil per day from Russia.

The Keystone XL pipeline would have produced 830,000 barrels per day.

Relying on Russian oil is a choice. And it’s a stupid one.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 09:44:04 AM
And from another universe

Quote
Stephen King
@StephenKing
 · Feb 22
Mr. Putin has made a serious miscalculation.
He forgot he's no longer dealing with Trump.

Putin right now  :rofl:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 24, 2022, 09:47:56 AM
Without getting even more tinfoily than I usually am  :laugh:  , this might be a good time to check on short and long term SHTF supplies, ala the covid run on goods. Putin's threat regarding interference by the West is much more likely cyberwarfare than nuclear warfare. Whether he can attack our power grid or not, as the MSM talks about it more and more, the old water and TP shortages via panic buying might be coming back.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 09:53:26 AM
Just did a quick perusal of EU news outlets, they don't seem to be very worried about Russia but are talking sanctions. Talk of taking in refugees is also prominent.

This will be a 1, 2 week story I bet.

Maybe for the major ground operations.
The insurgency could go on for months even years.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 10:21:22 AM
Move over Slawell and Reid, we have our most insane take yet.

Quote
    Right-wing doesn't love Putin just because he is an authoritarian, tyrannical leader, they love him because he's a WHITE authoritarian leader. Race has become more important than even nationality. They've turned on democracy and now even America, in favor of a white warlord.

    — Cenk Uygur (@cenkuygur) February 24, 2022
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/02/24/cenk-uygur-the-right-loves-vladimir-putin-because-hes-a-white-authoritarian-leader-and-americans-sure-do-love-themselves-a-white-warlord/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 10:25:18 AM
This may be a close 2nd though

Quote
    Lot of people in Ukraine crowding together inside.

    Only 35% of Ukrainians have been vaccinated. Less than 2% have been boosted.

    — Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) February 24, 2022
https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/02/24/nobody-is-this-stupid-lefty-dragged-then-dragged-more-for-nagging-unvaccinated-ukrainians-about-crowding-together-inside/

Hmmm, bombs, COVID, bombs, COVID?


Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 10:36:21 AM
Never mind. The dems/libs are having a contest in who can post the dumbest out of touch of reality *expletive deleted*it

Quote
One thing worth keeping in my mind today: There’s a straight line from Russia’s attack on the US election in 2016 to 1/6 to today’s new invasion of Ukraine. The chaos that Russia unleashed with the election of Trump weakened us to the point Putin feels confident invading Europe.

— Garrett M. Graff (@vermontgmg) February 24, 2022
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/02/24/cleanup-on-aisle-biden-blue-check-historian-says-trump-weakened-us-to-the-point-putin-feels-confident-invading-europe/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: DittoHead on February 24, 2022, 10:47:34 AM
Just did a quick perusal of EU news outlets, they don't seem to be very worried about Russia
The US warned loudly & clearly that this was going to happen and they said we were overreacting. It doesn't seem like they have a better read on the situation.
European news. In this case specifically Germany, who, sad for me to say, seems to be going very soft on Russia for political /economic reasons. This story is from the Epoch Times Germany, who are pretty similar to the US Epoch Times in generally unbiased reporting.

In this article, they are talking about undue saber rattling by the US and UK, that Biden is overreacting, and even have interviews with Ukrainian officials downplaying the current crisis.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 10:50:23 AM
Reports there's fighting at Chernobyl.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 10:59:05 AM
Yep, they're having a contest

Bet he hopped on his private jet to say this

Quote
    Former U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry on BBC Arabic: The Ukraine Crisis Could Distract the World from the Climate Crisis While Having Massive Emissions Consequences #RussiaUkraineConflict #UkraineRussie #UkraineRussiaCrisis #ClimateCrisis @JohnKerry @ClimateEnvoy pic.twitter.com/nsOC1iZeGm

    — MEMRI (@MEMRIReports) February 24, 2022
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/02/24/not-a-parody-part-2-john-kerry-warns-of-the-carbon-footprint-of-russias-invasion-of-ukraine/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 11:12:03 AM
Meanwhile at CNN  :facepalm:

https://twitter.com/JetsGuy6/status/1496871231945154564
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on February 24, 2022, 11:13:30 AM
Reports there's fighting at Chernobyl.

Do you want mutants with superpowers? Because fighting a war in a radioactive wasteland is how you get mutants with superpowers.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 24, 2022, 11:21:36 AM
Meanwhile at CNN  :facepalm:

https://twitter.com/JetsGuy6/status/1496871231945154564

 :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on February 24, 2022, 11:44:33 AM
Yep, they're having a contest

Bet he hopped on his private jet to say this
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/02/24/not-a-parody-part-2-john-kerry-warns-of-the-carbon-footprint-of-russias-invasion-of-ukraine/

Don't worry Johnny, he is offsetting it by killing a bunch of people so they won't be admitting as many emissions.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on February 24, 2022, 11:54:24 AM
And from another universe

Quote
Stephen King
@StephenKing
 · Feb 22
Mr. Putin has made a serious miscalculation.
He forgot he's no longer dealing with Trump.

Putin right now  :rofl:

True in the sense that you can never know what an Alzheimer's patient might do.  Paranoia is a common symptom of Alzheimer's.  Our dementia-addled leader could do something monumentally stupid in reaction to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on February 24, 2022, 12:24:12 PM
I'll be honest: I thought this would end up being a more limited action on the eastern parts of Ukraine.  I thought a full scale invasion seemed less likely.

Ultimately the west will let Ukraine fall.  The lesson here is that countries without nuclear weapons exist at the convenience of those who do.

Also: The UN again proves it's uselessness.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: T.O.M. on February 24, 2022, 12:29:22 PM
Just heard someone at work say that Chinese aircraft are flying into Taiwan airspace.  Anyone hearing this? 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 24, 2022, 12:31:07 PM
Just heard someone at work say that Chinese aircraft are flying into Taiwan airspace.  Anyone hearing this?
They have been testing Taiwanese air space a number of times over the last year or more.  I hope it doesn't mean something more.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: T.O.M. on February 24, 2022, 12:34:35 PM
They have been testing Taiwanese air space a number of times over the last year or more.  I hope it doesn't mean something more.

That's what I'm afraid of.  The Chinese saying "Quick, while everyone is looking at Ukraine, let's grab Taiwan."
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 24, 2022, 01:26:46 PM
After doing a "readers digest" version of the history of Ukraine and also the history of Taiwan as a refresher I have a serious question. What is the time frame that should be accepted for a region to be considered separated from their "home" nation and be independent?

As far as China is concerned they never gave up Taiwan. The Taiwan government apparently for a while considered themselves the actual legitimate Chinese government in exile.

Russia and the USSR have been in "possession" of Ukraine for a substantial part of modern history, there are areas of Ukraine that are majority Russian or Russian leaning politically.

China plays the long game and it looks like KGB Putin does also.

Maybe the best long game for the USA and the west would have been to fortify and strengthen NATO as it consisted at the collapse of the USSR instead of expanding NATO eastward. Our NATO allies have been pretty feckless all along, particularly about pulling their own weight financially. Spreading NATO even thinner looks like a bad play to me.

My expectation was that China and Taiwan would unify peacefully in the future. They played the long game with Hong Kong and won and I don't see why they would rush things now. I just don't know what the sentiment is in Taiwan, if there is widespread support of the people for reunification the timeframe might be sped up.

Looking to the USA for leadership on the Ukraine issue with a totally compromised POTUS is probably not a wise move for the Europeans.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on February 24, 2022, 01:32:06 PM
After doing a "readers digest" version of the history of Ukraine and also the history of Taiwan as a refresher I have a serious question. What is the time frame that should be accepted for a region to be considered separated from their "home" nation and be independent?

I don't think a given amount of time is really the right metric.  Along what lines do you think countries should form?  Geographic, cultural, linguistic, ethnic?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on February 24, 2022, 01:38:00 PM
Russia and China set up a new energy trade agreement before he invaded. Our sanctions won't mean crap to Putin.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 24, 2022, 01:55:04 PM
I don't think a given amount of time is really the right metric.  Along what lines do you think countries should form?  Geographic, cultural, linguistic, ethnic?

I'm thinking genetic, ethnic and cultural occupying a geographic location. My assumption until very recently was that Taiwan was of mostly Han Chinese descent. Apparently that is not true at all and that the majority are of Taiwanese descent, not from the Chinese or Japanese. If true I would say the Taiwanese are a distinct people/Nation on all counts.

I'm not sure about Ukraine, particularly since they have been a part of Russia on and off for a long time.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on February 24, 2022, 02:05:54 PM
We have more sanctions we can put on Russia but we will see how these are working in a month. Let's Go Brandon.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 02:54:30 PM
FlightRadar24 since last night

Quote
You are now in line.
Thanks for your patience.
Your estimated wait time is 13 minutes...
We are experiencing a high volume of traffic and using a virtual queue to limit the amount of users on the website at the same time. This will ensure you have the best possible online experience.

This page will automatically refresh, please do not close your browser.

Last updated 2:53:25 PM
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 03:19:07 PM
Quote
Don’t worry about Putin, our military has this in the bag.

https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxQo8Pz-l2lVGttFqLgjG99EEPTDCWnsh8
(https://yt3.ggpht.com/6yISI-7SPB9TZzSmURcFGhgneaSo7Ft2CpBY-ejdhHf9wibwHyZ62r_pQEmluBIPG70hUZTfFoLs=s800-nd-v1)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 03:25:48 PM
Anotov An-225 Mriya: Reports world's largest plane destroyed at Hostomel airport
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19950717.anotov-an-225-mriya-reports-worlds-largest-plane-destroyed-hostomel-airport/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on February 24, 2022, 03:48:11 PM
Just heard someone at work say that Chinese aircraft are flying into Taiwan airspace.  Anyone hearing this?
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taiwan-reports-nine-chinese-aircraft-its-air-defence-zone-2022-02-24/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on February 24, 2022, 03:52:44 PM
Anotov An-225 Mriya: Reports world's largest plane destroyed at Hostomel airport
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19950717.anotov-an-225-mriya-reports-worlds-largest-plane-destroyed-hostomel-airport/

Oh no!  We would occasionally see the AN-225 and AN-124 landing at Paine Field in Everett or Boeing Field in Seattle, usually in the context of shipping parts for Boeing, or on the way to an airshow.  They made the C-5 Galaxy, 747, and 787 Dreamlifters look small.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: bedlamite on February 24, 2022, 06:08:43 PM
Alex Jones was right. Again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zdbdl3VKVb8
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: fifth_column on February 24, 2022, 06:09:11 PM
Since WLJ mentioned flightradar24 I thought I'd take a look. Apparently, Ukraine is being given a wide berth, which makes sense.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51902748245_0d0a21e05b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2n5t9MK) (https://flic.kr/p/2n5t9MK)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on February 24, 2022, 06:45:29 PM
As to how we decide nations, my limited experience with Ukrainian coworkers is that is best to not call them Russian for funsies. They don’t get the joke. The national identity is strong. No doubt we screwed around in their politics but they have had multiple votes and constitutional amendments that says they look west. We promised them security for giving back the nukes. The guy deposed by their revolution lives in exile in Russia. A good party member too. So it is not like vlad was sitting over there minding his own.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on February 24, 2022, 06:51:52 PM
. We promised them security for giving back the nukes.

The USA promised that we would not attack them.  Russia promised the same.  We are keeping our promise.  Russia isn't.

We did not promise that we would stop Russia from attacking them.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on February 24, 2022, 06:54:59 PM
I really thought that whole administration couldn't be idiots.

I turned on cable new today for the first time since the 2020 election to watch the briefings. i was proved right. They had one guy smart enough to hire Stephen King to write policy. Only they told him to use the book 1984 and the movie Ideocracy and make them the presidents policy.   
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 24, 2022, 06:56:37 PM
I was just talking to hot Ukrainian ex-coworker and she was talking to her relatives in Western Ukraine a couple of hours ago. Things are relatively calm at the moment where her relatives are.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 07:19:27 PM
Quote
    reminder not to assign gender to anyone from ukraine when tweeting about world war 3. remember to use the correct term “folx” when referring to all ukrainian folx ! 🤍 it’s not hard to be inclusive of all genders in ukraine

    — señorita awesome (@noangeIcharli) February 24, 2022

A coupe of other winners at the link

https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/02/24/putin-did-us-a-favor-libs-of-tik-tok-presents-the-worst-takes-to-come-out-of-the-russian-invasion-of-ukraine/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on February 24, 2022, 08:11:36 PM
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances may require the US and UK to go to war with Russia for invading Ukraine (or Belarus or Kazakhstan). I'm still reading about this.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 24, 2022, 08:29:12 PM
Quote
Doubling down, Deputy National Security Advisor and Deputy NEC Director, Daleep Singh says "our measures were not designed to disrupt in any way the current flow of energy from Russia to the world."

So does that mean we're still getting our oil from them too? Those are some sanctions, you betchya.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 24, 2022, 08:34:45 PM
A coupe of other winners at the link

https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/02/24/putin-did-us-a-favor-libs-of-tik-tok-presents-the-worst-takes-to-come-out-of-the-russian-invasion-of-ukraine/

The one you quoted kinda makes me want to see the commies cyberkill our power grid, just so that these aholes can learn what real problems are.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on February 24, 2022, 08:40:47 PM
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances may require the US and UK to go to war with Russia for invading Ukraine (or Belarus or Kazakhstan). I'm still reading about this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

Quote
The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated at political level, but it is not entirely clear whether the instrument is devoid entirely of legal provisions. It refers to assurances, but it does not impose a legal obligation of military assistance on its parties.[1][20] According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations, "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine."

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on February 24, 2022, 08:49:10 PM
Something I'm curious about. MSM seems to be making a big deal out of the Ruskies "capturing" Chernobyl, what's the big deal about capturing a radioactive shithole?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on February 24, 2022, 08:58:44 PM
Since WLJ mentioned flightradar24 I thought I'd take a look. Apparently, Ukraine is being given a wide berth, which makes sense.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51902748245_0d0a21e05b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2n5t9MK)
 (https://flic.kr/p/2n5t9MK)

That's how Afghanistan looked right after the Taliban took over.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on February 24, 2022, 09:07:23 PM
Something I'm curious about. MSM seems to be making a big deal out of the Ruskies "capturing" Chernobyl, what's the big deal about capturing a radioactive shithole?

Well, they can't use their nukes without starting WW3 but some terrorists with a few dirty bombs running around is a whole different story.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on February 24, 2022, 09:09:55 PM
After doing a "readers digest" version of the history of Ukraine and also the history of Taiwan as a refresher I have a serious question. What is the time frame that should be accepted for a region to be considered separated from their "home" nation and be independent?

As far as China is concerned they never gave up Taiwan. The Taiwan government apparently for a while considered themselves the actual legitimate Chinese government in exile.

The legitimate government of China was the government "in exile" in/on Taiwan. As far as I'm concerned, the communist government of mainland China is not and never has been legitimate.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on February 24, 2022, 09:13:13 PM

I'm not sure about Ukraine, particularly since they have been a part of Russia on and off for a long time.

I'm very fuzzy on details but, if I remember what she said even a bit correctly, a former GF from Ukraine basically said that Ukraine is older than Russia as a civilized nation, and that Ukraine was the birthplace of Russia.

Or something like that.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Bogie on February 24, 2022, 09:28:04 PM
Wasn't Ukraine the USSR's version of Florida, along with harbors and pipelines?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 24, 2022, 09:28:32 PM
Something I'm curious about. MSM seems to be making a big deal out of the Ruskies "capturing" Chernobyl, what's the big deal about capturing a radioactive shithole?
In an article I read they pointed out that if Russia is staging troops, equipment and the like there nobody will be dropping bombs or attacking them with missiles due to not wanting to kick up clouds of radioactive dust. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 09:28:59 PM
Somethings I've not seen asked is what would Putin do if a stalemate ensues or even starts losing?
What is the morale of the Russian army like in all of this?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 24, 2022, 09:31:11 PM
"Russian warship, go *expletive deleted*ck yourself."

https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1497005877555077124
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 09:31:25 PM
In an article I read they pointed out that if Russia is staging troops, equipment and the like there nobody will be dropping bombs or attacking them with missiles due to not wanting to kick up clouds of radioactive dust.

Wonder what the troops there think about being in a radioactive wonderland?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on February 24, 2022, 09:34:07 PM
Something I'm curious about. MSM seems to be making a big deal out of the Ruskies "capturing" Chernobyl, what's the big deal about capturing a radioactive shithole?

I caught a few headlines talking about that too.  I'd guess it's just because that's a very recognizable name for the public in the west.  I think people associate it with danger and importance.  From the perspective of the military campaign... it isn't relevant.

Although I'm sure people working on dismantling and dealing with chernobyl-4 in the new safe confinement are not entirely thrilled to be in the middle of a war zone.  I wonder if the Russians will expel the Ukrainian and international workers there?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 24, 2022, 09:42:21 PM
"Russian warship, go *expletive deleted*ck yourself."

https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1497005877555077124

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePCVxoWlB2g
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: T.O.M. on February 24, 2022, 10:28:55 PM

Although I'm sure people working on dismantling and dealing with chernobyl-4 in the new safe confinement are not entirely thrilled to be in the middle of a war zone.  I wonder if the Russians will expel the Ukrainian and international workers there?

CNN reported that the techs are now being held prisoner by the Russian forces.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: kgbsquirrel on February 25, 2022, 01:09:37 AM
In an article I read they pointed out that if Russia is staging troops, equipment and the like there nobody will be dropping bombs or attacking them with missiles due to not wanting to kick up clouds of radioactive dust.

Seems like the Russian troops would be the worst off getting dusted with radmats from munition impacts there.  The dust won't go far without being carried into the upper atmosphere without a thermal updraft.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 25, 2022, 09:23:43 AM
Seems like the Russian troops would be the worst off getting dusted with radmats from munition impacts there.  The dust won't go far without being carried into the upper atmosphere without a thermal updraft.

Quote
A radiation spike has been recorded around the Chernobyl nuclear power plant. Data from monitoring stations suggests the levels of radiation

increased about 20-fold on Thursday.

“Around the reactor you would normally receive a dose of around 3 units (called microsieverts) every hour - that’s jumped to 65,” explains Sheffield University nuclear materials expert Prof Claire Corkhill.

“That’s about five times more than you would get on a transatlantic flight.”

The most likely explanation, she says, is increased movement of people and vehicles in the 4,000 square km Chernobyl exclusion zone has kicked up radioactive dust that is usually undisturbed on the ground.

Unrest around the now defunct nuclear power plant is alarming, but a repeat of the 1986 nuclear disaster, experts say, is extremely unlikely.

“The radioactivity has decayed significantly since then and the thing that released the radioactivity then was a huge fire,” explains Prof Corkhill.

Of much more concern is any fighting close to Ukraine’s other working nuclear reactors.

Nuclear policy expert James Acton wrote on Thursday that “Chernobyl is inside a large uninhabited space. Ukraine’s other reactors are not similarly isolated".

"Moreover, much of the fuel in these other reactors is substantially more radioactive than the fuel at Chernobyl,” he added.
Article share tools
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60517447

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 25, 2022, 09:40:05 AM
Ukraine Update: On The Steppe  - Intelligence update
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz2JsCrNaAE

I had forgotten I was subscribed to this guy.  Does a good summary of what is currently known.  Starts off on the sanction issue then goes into how the fighting is going.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 25, 2022, 09:40:46 AM
Quote
Ukraine says it hands out 18,000 machine guns to Kyiv volunteers
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60517447
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 25, 2022, 09:42:43 AM
Quote
Kremlin: Russia ready for talks with Ukraine on 'neutrality'
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60517447
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on February 25, 2022, 09:57:42 AM
Whatever the outcome I hope people are taking notes. These are modern civilized people who last week had largely first world problems. Now they are turning out with automatic rifles. I hope they give a good account of the private citizen.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 25, 2022, 10:01:19 AM
Paywall at the article, but apparently the admin shared intelligence on Russia/Ukraine with China in hopes China would help intervene, and China turned around and gave all the intel to Russia. Shocker.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/us/politics/us-china-russia-ukraine.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/02/25/adults-are-back-in-charge-super-genius-biden-spent-3-months-trying-to-get-china-to-help-stop-russia-guess-what-china-did-instead/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 25, 2022, 10:05:53 AM
My prediction ... this will end with bad guys in control of Ukraine.  ;)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 25, 2022, 10:51:57 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVE8qPX9uT4
Ukraine & Russia War: The Average Soldier's Perspective

Task & Purpose has a bit snarkier version of things, but has a little more information. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 25, 2022, 12:28:55 PM
Not to take away from the seriousness of the discussion, but it's certainly interesting to watch the progressive antigunners all come out in roaring favor of selective fire arms in the hands of private citizens, as long as it's not in the USA. Well, to be fair, they'd probably be in favor of armed antifa.


https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/02/25/occupy-democrats-are-big-supporters-of-a-heavily-armed-citizenry-in-ukraine/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 25, 2022, 12:32:34 PM
Quote
As we reported a few moments ago, no Russian act will be allowed to compete in this year's Eurovision Song Contest after Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60517447

(https://c.tenor.com/0ePsDl_ryCsAAAAM/putin-laughing.gif)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 25, 2022, 12:50:34 PM
Not to take away from the seriousness of the discussion, but it's certainly interesting to watch the progressive antigunners all come out in roaring favor of selective fire arms in the hands of private citizens, as long as it's not in the USA. Well, to be fair, they'd probably be in favor of armed antifa.


https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/02/25/occupy-democrats-are-big-supporters-of-a-heavily-armed-citizenry-in-ukraine/
Hell, I was going further and thinking it would be nice to have a grenade launcher or anti-tank weapon.  When seeing artillery and rockets flying around, my rifle/pistol collection seems pretty weak. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on February 25, 2022, 01:02:36 PM
Hell, I was going further and thinking it would be nice to have a grenade launcher or anti-tank weapon.  When seeing artillery and rockets flying around, my rifle/pistol collection seems pretty weak.

Agreed.

It also occurs to me that after Ukraine falls, there will now be a decent amount of small arms floating around to conduct an insurgency.  The Ukrainian government might also be wise to hand out explosives and detonators explicitly for the purpose of future insurgency.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on February 25, 2022, 01:07:51 PM
Certainly hardened my domestic politics. No new revelations but my politeness level is about to peg on zero. We need more guns everywhere. Anyone who wants them is your enemy. In our case of course there are no Russians just our betters.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 25, 2022, 01:29:51 PM
I did see that the Ukrainian government was distributing instructions to assemble Molotov cocktails.

Additionally, I just saw an interview with the previous Ukrainian President in which he was being asked what arms his local citizens group had available. They only had AKs, and not enough of them according to him, and that they were additionally hoping to get various MANPADs and other bigger stuff. They showed a long line of people looking to enlist. He also said that they would resist "forever", in a way that indicates there could be a lot of asymmetrical warfare, of the kind the Russians stepped into in Afghanistan.

For Babylon 5 fans, he kind of gave a G'Kar speech from after the Centauri invasion.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on February 25, 2022, 01:42:06 PM
Governments who are confident in the support of the general population are comfortable when that population is armed.

Governments who are not confident in the support of the general population actually fear that population being armed.

These positions can switch - usually slowly, sometimes overnight.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 25, 2022, 01:57:57 PM
All options are on the table to protect the Biden clans financial interests.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 25, 2022, 02:09:12 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60517447

(https://c.tenor.com/0ePsDl_ryCsAAAAM/putin-laughing.gif)

Ooh . . . that'll show them Russkies.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 25, 2022, 02:33:40 PM
Former President Bush condemns Russia's unjustified invasion.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 25, 2022, 02:43:19 PM
If Putin decided to push for the whole enchilada, what would be the next country that he would invade?

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on February 25, 2022, 02:44:03 PM
Former President Bush condemns Russia's unjustified invasion.

Pfft.

I'm waiting for Jimmy Carter to weigh in.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Boomhauer on February 25, 2022, 02:48:43 PM
If Putin decided to push for the whole enchilada, what would be the next country that he would invade?


I’m guessing he’d try to go after any non NATO backed former USSR country. I don’t think he’s got the desire to tangle with NATO but anyone else is fair game.

Provided of course the Ukrainians don’t *expletive deleted*ck him in the ass with Guerilla war. If the Ukrainians pull out all the stops for asymmetric warfare they will bleed Russia badly.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 25, 2022, 02:52:15 PM
If Putin decided to push for the whole enchilada, what would be the next country that he would invade?

As I said on Facebook, my bet is on Moldova next.  I won't guess at a timeframe, but it's right there.  He also has some unfinished business with Georgia.

After that he can head to the 'stans, or look at the Balkans and we'll see how serious this all gets.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on February 25, 2022, 03:02:29 PM
If Putin decided to push for the whole enchilada, what would be the next country that he would invade?
I don't think it will be a NATO country.

If he attacks NATO, he can't be sure that the war will remain localized, and purely defensive (like Ukraine). For example, he attacks the Baltics - suddenly he can start losing Russian Navy vessels all over the world, Murmansk and Vladivostok can get hit by cruise missiles, the Trans Siberian railway can be taken out, and so forth and so on, with things spiraling out of his (or anyone's) control very quickly. I mean, aside from Biden being a nitwit, why would NATO limit the response geographically to favor Putin? That would be like circling the remains of our navy around Hawaii for the next 4 years after Pearl Harbor.

So . . . taking Poland and the Baltics off the table for now, I'd expect him to turn south towards some of the other former Soviet republics. I don't think people in the West will get too worked up if he invades Berzerkistan or Kablamistan. (Unless they've been paying off Hunter, too.)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 25, 2022, 03:05:58 PM
If China and Russia are coordinating this could get more interesting.

China of course has Taiwan in its sights but they also have been in a conflict with India. Another nation without an allies to team up with against China.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 25, 2022, 03:11:24 PM
The problem with the 'Stans is that.....they are the Stans.  Way too easy to end up like Afghanistan.  Kazakhstan has a bunch of land and oil, and easier logistics from Russia so it's more doable.  Tadzhikistan has been near or in a civil war for 20ish years, so they have a well practiced insurgency ready to go. Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Kirgizstan are all kinda poor, don't have a ton of resources, and have simmering screaming beard problems.  The Red Army isn't yet what it once was.

I honestly don't know much of what is happening in Armenia and Azerbaijan.  They may be on the table along with the rest of Georgia.

I guess we'll see

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 25, 2022, 03:13:26 PM
If China and Russia are coordinating this could get more interesting.

China of course has Taiwan in its sights but they also have been in a conflict with India. Another nation without an allies to team up with against China.

India has nukes, and will use them if it thinks it is falling.  Not to mention a culture and population that would be close to ungovernable under Communism.  I think the CCP knows that.  Nepal might want to be a bit nervous.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 25, 2022, 04:12:23 PM
White House news conference. I could only take a few minutes.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 25, 2022, 04:15:32 PM
"Reporter" wants to know why are countries like Poland treating refugees from Ukraine differently than they do refugees from the middle east. Psaki pass on that question. I wonder why? My guess is that it would have forced her to say something not PC
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 25, 2022, 04:36:16 PM
Quote
Breaking Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire

A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.

He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60517447
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on February 25, 2022, 04:36:48 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60517447

(https://c.tenor.com/0ePsDl_ryCsAAAAM/putin-laughing.gif)

Formula 1 has cancelled the race in Sochi for 2022.  And the Haas team has removed the Uralkali sponsorship from their cars.  No word if Nikita Mazapin will retain his seat.  Though many on the grid would be glad to see him gone no matter the means.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 25, 2022, 04:50:16 PM
Quote
16:41
Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks

Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.

The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.

"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.

"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.

"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60517447
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Brad Johnson on February 25, 2022, 04:58:54 PM
Looks like China has decided that unprovoked state-level aggression might be bad after all.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/china-restrict-financing-russia-ukraina-invasion

Brad
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on February 25, 2022, 05:06:22 PM
Looks like China has decided that unprovoked state-level aggression might be bad after all.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/china-restrict-financing-russia-ukraina-invasion

Brad

But they are still going to buy every lump of coal Russia has to offer.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Brad Johnson on February 25, 2022, 05:15:12 PM
Airlines tend to not work well when they don't have passengers to carry. Plus not having a convenient way to get influential Western businesspersons and their associated hundreds of billions in and out of the country.

Delta suspends partnership with Aeroflot.

https://www.everythinglubbock.com/news/international/delta-suspends-partnership-with-russian-airline-aeroflot/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=kamc&utm_campaign=socialflow&fbclid=IwAR3o36b7Zd1VSxVkjqxTqutvHklDiRInyIc6f6HkfrT6No-xI9W-6oUGDHI

Brad
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 25, 2022, 05:23:09 PM
"How long do you think you can hold out?"

"Forever."

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1497189957395488778
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: T.O.M. on February 25, 2022, 05:28:41 PM
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-russia-soldier-woman-confrontation-b2022993.html

If they all have the cojones of this woman, Russia has a problem.   
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on February 25, 2022, 05:34:32 PM
Formula 1 has cancelled the race in Sochi for 2022.  And the Haas team has removed the Uralkali sponsorship from their cars.  No word if Nikita Mazapin will retain his seat.  Though many on the grid would be glad to see him gone no matter the means.

Because he has destroyed more vehicles than the ukrainian army?  I follow F1 heavily but they have a long way to go in stopping kissing dictators asses.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Parker Dean on February 25, 2022, 06:06:03 PM
If Putin decided to push for the whole enchilada, what would be the next country that he would invade?
I watched a video that said that there are 9 passes that Russia must control in order to secure it's border in the West. With the annexation of Crimea they held 3. The 'Stans are 2 more but less relevant atm. Ukraine will give them another, plus food. The remainder are Belarus and north to Estonia. Since Belarus is already on friendly terms with Russia, if I were Lithuania or Latvia I'd be real nervous about who's next.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on February 25, 2022, 06:28:03 PM
This is a treat we didn't need. Maybe NATO will wake up.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/russian-space-chief-talks-of-space-station-crashing-down-to-earth
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 25, 2022, 06:35:25 PM
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-russia-soldier-woman-confrontation-b2022993.html

If they all have the cojones of this woman, Russia has a problem.

I saw that yesterday.  Grandma is stone cold.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on February 25, 2022, 06:50:14 PM
This is a treat we didn't need. Maybe NATO will wake up.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/russian-space-chief-talks-of-space-station-crashing-down-to-earth

There has already been recent talk of ISS end of life in the near future. Whether it was going to be a de-orbit and burn up operation or push it in to a much higher parking orbit was part of the discussion.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: bedlamite on February 25, 2022, 07:38:45 PM
(https://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/france-has-just-surrendered-breaking-news.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on February 25, 2022, 08:08:53 PM
(https://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/france-has-just-surrendered-breaking-news.jpg)

France has nukes this time.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 25, 2022, 09:28:27 PM
https://buchanan.org/blog/did-we-provoke-putins-war-in-ukraine-159120

Quote
When Russia’s Vladimir Putin demanded that the U.S. rule out Ukraine as a future member of the NATO alliance, the U.S. archly replied: NATO has an open-door policy. Any nation, including Ukraine, may apply for membership and be admitted. We’re not changing that.

In the Bucharest declaration of 2008, NATO had put Ukraine and Georgia, ever farther east in the Caucasus, on a path to membership in NATO and coverage under Article 5 of the treaty, which declares that an attack on any one member is an attack on all.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 25, 2022, 10:00:33 PM
Blame COVID
Yeah right

Quote
    A senior State Department official, briefing a small group of reporters, says the COVID pandemic may have been one factor isolating Putin and preventing him from hearing contrary voices–making him more to embark on an Ukraine invasion that will lead to bloodshed and peril.

    — Susan Page (@SusanPage) February 25, 2022
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/02/25/marco-rubio-hints-he-has-information-that-something-is-off-with-putin/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 25, 2022, 10:18:52 PM
NATO response force activated for the first time ever.

https://news.yahoo.com/nato-activates-response-force-first-195211120.html
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: bedlamite on February 25, 2022, 10:22:19 PM
(https://irate4x4.com/attachments/fmamoofwyaeyol8-jpg.503769/)
(https://img.patriotpost.us/01FWRZG7MSKR3JWMEFB06S04W3.jpeg)
(https://i.redd.it/et8pts4n6zj81.png)
(https://i.redd.it/gk0zn0b19zj81.png)
(https://i.redd.it/skmhbex5h0k81.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/sWXCWEW.jpg)
(https://i.redd.it/25bpm66k52k81.jpg)
(https://i.redd.it/9hnzfzeny1k81.jpg)
(http://[img]https://i.redd.it/9s40u0lpf0k81.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/qjoqttq.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 25, 2022, 11:16:06 PM
Quote
"I think it's really important for people to understand the brilliance with which President Biden is conducting this," Pelosi said, according to Fox News' Chad Pergram. "This is a man who served decades as chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee. He knows the arena. He knows the personalities."

"brilliance"

Quote
This is the same tyrant who attacked our democracy in 2016," she said at a news conference

Pelosi Says It's Important to 'Understand the Brilliance' of Biden's Response to Russian Invasion of Ukraine
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/landonmion/2022/02/25/pelosi-says-its-important-to-understand-the-brilliance-of-bidens-response-to-russian-invasion-of-ukraine-n2603825
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on February 25, 2022, 11:54:02 PM
"brilliance"

Pelosi Says It's Important to 'Understand the Brilliance' of Biden's Response to Russian Invasion of Ukraine
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/landonmion/2022/02/25/pelosi-says-its-important-to-understand-the-brilliance-of-bidens-response-to-russian-invasion-of-ukraine-n2603825

I'm sure the Ukrainian people are suitably impressed.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 26, 2022, 07:59:15 AM
Watching the news this morning, it looks like though rifles are being handed out, there is not much ammo going with them.

I have to give kudos to the Ukrainian President. He's refusing evac and standing in the street armed, alongside his fellow citizens. I don't know what recent US president would have done the same. Obviously, most of them have been old, not that it's an excuse - Ukraine is ordering people as old as 60 to arm up, and I see older people are voluntarily taking up arms. Obama was young enough, but he wouldn't have done it. I think the last US President that would have put his money where his mouth was would have been Teddy Roosevelt.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on February 26, 2022, 08:42:18 AM
I think W would of.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on February 26, 2022, 08:50:16 AM
Before my time, but I've heard folks say Carter would have.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 26, 2022, 09:12:42 AM
Update from the Ushanka Show*

Update on my family in Ukraine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p0n9cdNsBw

*For those who aren't familiar with the Ushanka Show it's a YT channel that follows what life was like in the old Soviet Union
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 26, 2022, 09:45:28 AM
Baghdad Moscow Bob

Quote
Russian military spokesperson Maj Gen Igor Konashenkov said on Saturday that Moscow had suffered no casualties during the invasion.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60517447

Oh wait, he said MOSCOW had suffered no casualties
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on February 26, 2022, 10:55:53 AM
Starting to wonder if the Ukrainians are doing too good. I personally wish them great success, many more javelins and all the paratroopers falling from the sky pre killed. But in a larger picture Putin has to save face. His whole brand is power. This threatens to make Russia irrelevant. Basically he is the bar fight guy who is getting his ass kicked and pulls out a gun.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 26, 2022, 11:00:43 AM
Interesting:

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/02/26/reporters-2018-tweet-showing-german-un-delegation-laughing-at-trumps-warning-gets-renewed-attention/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 26, 2022, 11:11:48 AM
Starting to wonder if the Ukrainians are doing too good. I personally wish them great success, many more javelins and all the paratroopers falling from the sky pre killed. But in a larger picture Putin has to save face. His whole brand is power. This threatens to make Russia irrelevant. Basically he is the bar fight guy who is getting his ass kicked and pulls out a gun.

Yeah I asked  a page or so back what if Russian forces get caught up in stalemate or even start losing?

Quote
Now 'a war of necessity' for Putin

Paul Adams

BBC diplomatic correspondent

Western officials say that Ukraine’s military has been effective in slowing the Russian advance overnight in the capital Kyiv.

But they worry that the Russians, impatient to inflict a rapid victory, could resort to drastic measures.

“My fear would be that if they don’t meet the timescales and objectives… they will be indiscriminate in the use of violence,” one said.

“The problem is that [Vladimir Putin] having committed himself in the way that he has, this is now not a war of choice for him, but a war of necessity.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60517447/page/3

Anti war protests are growing in Russia and there's talk of grumbling in his cabinet
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Bogie on February 26, 2022, 11:27:32 AM
Are the Ukraine rifles able to use Russian ammo? Likely. So they have a good source right there...
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 26, 2022, 11:33:57 AM
Are the Ukraine rifles able to use Russian ammo? Likely. So they have a good source right there...

If wiki can be trusted, yes for the most part
According to the wiki standard issue rifles, AK-74s, are in 5.45, same as the standard issue Russian rifles. Some 5.45 Tavors in service. 7.62x39 rifles, mostly AKMs, in reserve. Not sure the current status of the ARs they ordered in 7.62x39 and 5.56

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Ukrainian_Ground_Forces

I would suspect the "18,000" rifles handed out in Kyiv are reserve rifles and thus in 7.62x39
If any Russian units are running around with the older 7.62x39 rifles I have no clue but I would doubt it.

Edit: The Tavors are (mostly) in 5.45 as well.
Thing is I knew that before hand but had a brain fart while typing. Corrected
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on February 26, 2022, 11:42:10 AM
I think the last US President that would have put his money where his mouth was would have been Teddy Roosevelt.

Calvin Coolidge.  Well, as long as it wasn’t during nap time.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 26, 2022, 12:06:39 PM
Whoops, correction to the above. The Ukrainian Tavors are in 5.45 as well and are in fact being manufactured there.
I remember some people in bullpup forums asking if we would ever see a 5.45 Tavor here when 5.45 Tavors started showing up in Ukraine
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 26, 2022, 12:11:07 PM
Which got me thinking
Are there any major 5.45x39 ammo manufacturers outside of Russian and Ukraine?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 26, 2022, 12:21:51 PM
Any of this sound familiar?
Quote
Russia's 'dirty bomb' speculation is fake - Ukraine

Ukraine's Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba has hit back at allegations that his government intends to detonate a dirty bomb on Russian territory.

Dirty bombs are devices that combine conventional explosives with radioactive material and are designed to kill thousands of people instantly.

Russian state TV has also been discussing the prospect in recent days and at Friday night's UN Security Council meeting Russia's ambassador Vasily Nebenzya told delegates: "We do not want Ukraine to develop a 'dirty bomb'."

In a tweet, Kuleba ridiculed the suggestion, saying: "Russian propaganda has gone off the rails."
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60517447
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 26, 2022, 12:59:28 PM
Scary part about the above is that I wouldn't put it pass either one of them doing it as a false flag.
Putin if faced with a stalemate or worse and losing support at home could do it in an attempt to rally Russian support. Ukraine for more foreign support.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 26, 2022, 01:16:07 PM
Air raid sirens going off

LIVE: Kyiv Ukraine [Multiple View Points] #Kiev #Kyiv #Ukraine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcH7cUxXAnw
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on February 26, 2022, 01:55:39 PM
Any one got the odds on when the US and NATO actually get involved in Ukraine? I honestly think Biden and his puppet masters are really that stupid.
Starting to see the propaganda pushing the narrative that Ukraine needs to be saved from the evil Putin. It's still subtle but it's there.

If we do I would expect China to move on Taiwan within 24 hours.

How *expletive deleted*ed is Eastern Europe with their dependence on Russian NG?

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 26, 2022, 01:59:04 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60517447
Quote
Russian commanders frustrated by slow advance - US official

Russian commanders are becoming increasingly frustrated by the slow speed of their advance through Ukraine and are starting to face logistical issues, a senior US defence official says.

It appears Moscow did not supply its troops with sufficient fuel, and commanders have been forced to adjust their plans as a result, the official told the Reuters news agency.

Videos on social media on Saturday appeared to show Russian tanks stalling in parts of Ukraine.

You can watch one of the encounters below, which the BBC has geolocated to a highway near Sumy in eastern Ukraine. In the video, a man can be heard offering the apparently stranded soldiers "a tow back to Russia".

 :rofl:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 26, 2022, 02:04:15 PM
On a related note to the above.
Someone in the chat on one of the live feeds keeps urging Ukrainians to attack Russian supply trucks.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 26, 2022, 02:16:45 PM
Germany now shipping SAMs and anti-tank weapons to Ukraine
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on February 26, 2022, 02:32:15 PM
Why in the %$^ did NATO not say "We have no interest in admitting Ukraine as a member"? 

Could this have avoided this?

How would it help us to be committed to defending another country?

We do not need any more wars to help foreigners.

I am for sending them arms if they will use them.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 26, 2022, 02:55:17 PM
Germany now shipping SAMs and anti-tank weapons to Ukraine

Well that's an interesting change of policy. I need to jump over to the kraut news sites and see what they're saying.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: gunsmith on February 26, 2022, 03:54:37 PM
Why in the %$^ did NATO not say "We have no interest in admitting Ukraine as a member"? 

Could this have avoided this?

How would it help us to be committed to defending another country?

We do not need any more wars to help foreigners.

I am for sending them arms if they will use them.

Budapest Memorandum.
 It could be we are committed to defending Ukraine, Clinton/Yeltsin and some English bloke I cannot recall signed an agreement to keep
Ukraine sovereign if they give up the nukes.
This is a quagmire, if I was more prepared, I would be all for US going and all for ww3 - but i do not have enough resources currently for my road warrior post apocalyptic warlord plans.
if we do not help out, we/Clinton lied to the Ukrainians - if we do help out - Russia slips a few EMP's into the atmosphere and I resort to getting a shopping cart kitted out with various guns and sleeping bags and head south next winter ... you know ... like that movie/book
The Road
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 26, 2022, 04:28:55 PM
Well that's an interesting change of policy. I need to jump over to the kraut news sites and see what they're saying.

Now France and the Netherlands
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60517447
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 26, 2022, 04:38:10 PM
Why in the %$^ did NATO not say "We have no interest in admitting Ukraine as a member"? 

Could this have avoided this?

How would it help us to be committed to defending another country?

We do not need any more wars to help foreigners.

I am for sending them arms if they will use them.
Considering all the corruption that people know about, I am kind of wondering if there was more stuff going on that we did not know about, perhaps some intended to undermine Putin.  I haven't heard anything, just speculating.  Thinking about the Benghazi debacle. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 26, 2022, 04:45:02 PM
Well that's an interesting change of policy. I need to jump over to the kraut news sites and see what they're saying.
From my perspective here in Texas (what that is worth), it seems to me the worst outcome for the nations within reach of Putin is a quick victory.  If it is a long and painful fight, win or lose, Putin won't be so likely to flex his military power in other directions.  At this point, the Ukrainians are fighting so it makes sense to help them out.  Just my two cents. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 26, 2022, 08:48:30 PM
Quote
Ukraine to receive boost in weaponry

As the Russian invasion of Ukraine continues in the early hours of Sunday morning, here's a reminder of pledges for support from Western allies issued so far this weekend.

On Saturday:

    The US State Department said it will send $350m (£261m) in weapons - including Javelin anti-tank missiles, anti-aircraft systems and body armour.
    The German government said it would supply Ukraine with 1,000 anti-tank grenade launchers and 500 Stinger surface-to-air missiles on an emergency basis.
    The Dutch announced deployment of 50 Panzerfaust-3 anti-tank weapons and 400 rockets.
    The two countries are also said to be considering sending a joint Patriot air defence system to a Nato battle group in Slovakia.
    Earlier, Nato began deploying more of its forces to Eastern Europe "to respond quickly to any contingency".
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 26, 2022, 10:35:23 PM
Zelenskyy declines offer to evacuate:  "I need ammunition, not a ride."

https://www.theblaze.com/news/us-offers-to-evacuate-ukrainian-president-zelenskyy-he-responds-i-need-ammunition-not-a-ride
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on February 26, 2022, 10:56:51 PM
I have a friend in Athens whose wife is Ukrainian. She is currently in Odessa (visiting her adult son and daughter-in-law) and they don't know how they're going to get her out.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: JN01 on February 26, 2022, 11:49:54 PM
Biden should use his awesome negotiating skills to get the Taliban to forward all the military equipment we left in A-stan over to the Ukrainians.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on February 26, 2022, 11:55:28 PM
Biden should use his awesome negotiating skills to get the Taliban to forward all the military equipment we left in A-stan over to the Ukrainians.
Not quite all of it - the handguns we left over there should be issued to Afghan women - that might improve their relations with the Taliban.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 09:07:19 AM
Quote
Putin puts Russia's strategic nuclear force on 'special alert'
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on February 27, 2022, 09:20:51 AM
Quote
Putin puts Russia's strategic nuclear force on 'special alert'

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877

Do we need any further proof that Putin is a megalomaniacal nutcase?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 09:24:37 AM
All is well

Quote
Russian move does not signal intent to use nuclear weapons

Gordon Corera

Security correspondent, BBC News

President Putin has ordered his military command to put nuclear forces on a "special" state of alert.

This is after what Moscow calls "aggressive statements" by Nato countries.

Russia's leader had already issued a coded warning that he was willing to use nuclear weapons as he began his invasion of Ukraine.

Last week, he warned that "whoever tries to hinder us" would see consequences "you have never seen in your history".

These words were widely interpreted as signalling a threat to use nuclear weapons if the West stood in his way.

The very public shift to high alert status is a way for Moscow to send a warning. Moving to alert status is likely to make it easier to launch weapons more quickly. But it does not mean there is a current intent to use them.

Russia has the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons in the world but also knows that Nato also has enough to destroy Russia if they were used.

But the aim is likely to try and deter Nato support for Ukraine by creating fears over how far he is willing to go and creating ambiguity over what kind of support for Ukraine he will consider to be too much.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on February 27, 2022, 09:32:50 AM
All is well
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877

Sure it is.  We can trust a guy who has never hesitated to remove his detractors from play.  How many people has he had murdered or imprisoned since he first took power in 1999?  How many countries has he invaded?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 09:34:47 AM
Now where did I put that glue?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 10:13:58 AM
Quote
The Ukrainian defence minister says that 25,000 guns have been handed over to territorial defence members in the Kyiv region alone.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 10:15:58 AM
Some are thinking we're still in the softening up phase and the real push hasn't started yet.
I don't know since I don't have access to Russian force deployments.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 10:47:47 AM
An-225 confirmed destroyed.  :mad: [ar15]
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 10:52:29 AM
Putin warned Finland and Sweden not to join NATO.
Finland: You want to try again? Bring it!  [ar15]

I made up the Finland part. They could have said something along those lines who knows.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 27, 2022, 10:59:30 AM
You know, when we started this thread however many pages ago I would not have picked "Ukrane holds off the Red Army long enough initial logistics start to break down" as a possible outcome.

Whatever other crazy *expletive deleted*it Putin ends up doing, the Ukrainians,  both professional military and not, are putting up a hell of a fight.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 27, 2022, 11:08:46 AM
Some are thinking we're still in the softening up phase and the real push hasn't started yet.
I don't know since I don't have access to Russian force deployments.

I also don't  have access to Russian Force Deployments,  but that excuse rings hollow.

First, it's not russian doctrine. They run their armor in fast and run the Motor-Rifle troops in afterwards to hold land. Which is what we saw with T-90s running in first under air cover, and BMPs and BTRs coming in later. That's why most of the videos taken by civilians on the web are of APCs.  That's what comes in after the initial push. So the Red Army appears to be following their doctrine.

Second if you were planning a softening up stage followed by a hard push, your softening forces would have enough fuel and ammo to hold until the follow on force, and there are reports of Russians running out of both.

Third, that's  a dumb strategy in modern warfare. You don't  send a force against prepared and warned defenders unless you think you can beat them. Sending an initial attack followed by a larger wave as the plan invites defeat in detail.

It's more likely  IMO that the Russians sent what they thought they needed, and it failed. Now they are committing whatever reserves they have and trying to save face by saying this was the plan all along.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 11:15:26 AM

It's more likely  IMO that the Russians sent what they thought they needed, and it failed. Now they are committing whatever reserves they have and trying to save face by saying this was the plan all along.

That's my personal belief
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 11:21:50 AM
I think Putin actually expected the Russian army to be welcomed as liberators and it would all be over in a few days. I think meeting strong resistance even in the so called "Russian" areas threw a monkey wrench in their plans.

Plus as I asked a few pages back I wonder what the morale of the Russian army is like in all of this. I would be willing to bet most Russian soldiers were/are like "Why the F am I here?"
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 27, 2022, 11:32:40 AM
From foxnews.com:
Quote
Turkey says Russia is waging war in Ukraine, may control warship passage into Black Sea
Turkey has declared that Russia’s actions in Ukraine constitute a war and will act accordingly, Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said Sunday.

Cavusoglu invoked the Montreux Convention, which dates back to 1936 and gives Turkey the ability to regulate the transit of naval warships between the Dardanelles Straits into the Black Sea.

Zelenskyy had claimed Saturday that Turkey had agreed to do this, but Turkish officials immediately pushed back saying they had not yet taken a decision on the matter.

Posted by Peter Aitken

There's a real danger of escalation here, Turkey being a NATO member.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 27, 2022, 11:37:37 AM
You would hope that Putin had most of the Black Sea Fleet in the Black Sea before he kicked this off.  After all their home port is already in there.

At any given time there's some Russians from the Black Sea fleet in the Med keeping an eye on Israel and Syria, and usually one down in the Red Sea doing pirate interdiction.  I would expect the rest of the fleet to already be up by the Ukraine.

Let's all hope Turkey doesn't sink one trying to run the straights at night.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 27, 2022, 11:46:09 AM
I almost feel bad putting this in a serious thread. Genius David Hogg thinks everyone should jump on Tinder to do psyops on Russian soldiers, as per a nearly 80 year old OSS manual. Mr anti-gun is now an I/CI expert.

https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/02/27/impressively-dumb-harvards-pride-david-hogg-tells-people-to-find-russian-soldiers-on-social-media-sites-like-tinder-to-sabotage-them/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Boomhauer on February 27, 2022, 11:46:35 AM
I think Putin actually expected the Russian army to be welcomed as liberators and it would all be over in a few days. I think meeting strong resistance even in the so called "Russian" areas threw a monkey wrench in their plans.

Plus as I asked a few pages back I wonder what the morale of the Russian army is like in all of this. I would be willing to bet most Russian soldiers were/are like "Why the F am I here?"

Reportedly a few have surrendered to the Ukrainians saying they weren’t told they were going to be invading Ukrainian and wanted nothing to do with killing Ukrainians. I can’t confirm it of course it’s all hearsay at this moment but it being true would not surprise me.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on February 27, 2022, 11:49:13 AM
Aren't a very significant number of Russian troops conscripts?
I can see that being an issue.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 12:03:41 PM
The things that pop into your head while mopping the bathroom floor.

The Czars of old thought of themselves as the protectors of the Slavic race. Maybe Putin after "liberating" Ukraine had the grand idea of crowning himself Czar Putin I in  the old seat of Rus power Kiev. Yeah, crazy idea. But in my defense who knows what's going on in that guy's head. Wouldn't surprise me if that thought has passed through his mind.
 
Back to mopping. Want things nice and clean for when it's vaporized in a nuclear blast.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 12:19:10 PM
Quote
    Elon Musk activates Starlink internet service in Ukraine. Will allow Ukrainians to use for free to keep communications going during invasion.https://t.co/4a1Zrv8vaq

    — Jazz Shaw (@JazzShaw) February 27, 2022
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 12:20:12 PM
I almost feel bad putting this in a serious thread. Genius David Hogg thinks everyone should jump on Tinder to do psyops on Russian soldiers, as per a nearly 80 year old OSS manual. Mr anti-gun is now an I/CI expert.

https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/02/27/impressively-dumb-harvards-pride-david-hogg-tells-people-to-find-russian-soldiers-on-social-media-sites-like-tinder-to-sabotage-them/

That boy is as sharp as a bowling ball
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 27, 2022, 12:25:58 PM
Elon Musk activates Starlink internet service in Ukraine. Will allow Ukrainians to use for free to keep communications going during invasion.

There was a time when I thought Musk was just a knucklehead, but he is kinda turning into Hank Reardon these past couple of years.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on February 27, 2022, 12:32:29 PM
You know, when we started this thread however many pages ago I would not have picked "Ukrane holds off the Red Army long enough initial logistics start to break down" as a possible outcome.

Whatever other crazy *expletive deleted*it Putin ends up doing, the Ukrainians,  both professional military and not, are putting up a hell of a fight.

This is very true.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: 230RN on February 27, 2022, 01:00:05 PM
Translated from reflections off vibrating window glass:

"Hey, if they can do it with Ukraine, we can do it with Taiwan!"

Translated from a pellet transmitter in a desk phone:

"Hey, if they can do it with Ukraine, we can do it with South Korea!"

Translated from....

Kinda shrinks yer sphincters, don't it?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 01:14:31 PM
Reportedly 5,000 anti war protesters arrested in Russia

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 01:25:30 PM
Quote
Sweden to send arms to Ukraine

Sweden has announced it will send military equipment and other aid to Ukraine.

Announcing the move, Prime Minister Magdalena Andersson said it would be the first time Sweden had sent weapons to a country in conflict since the Soviet invasion of Finland in 1939.

She said the shipments would include 5,000 single-use anti-tank launchers, 5,000 pieces of body armour, and 5,000 helmets as well as 135,000 ration packs.

"My conclusion is now that our security is best served by us supporting Ukraine's ability to defend itself against Russia," Andersson said.

It comes after the European Union announced it would buy weapons and deliver them to Ukraine, the first time in its history it has taken such a step.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 02:21:57 PM
Quote
Kyiv totally surrounded, mayor says, blocking escape routes

Kyiv’s mayor has been speaking to the Associated Press and says the city is now "encircled" by Russian forces.

Vitali Klitschko was asked

whether there were plans to evacuate civilians should Russian troops seize the capital.

“We can’t do that, because all ways are blocked,” he said. “Right now we are encircled.”

Air raids have been sounding in the city as residents face another night under the threat of air strikes.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on February 27, 2022, 04:11:01 PM
An-225 confirmed destroyed.  :mad: [ar15]
It was apparently being serviced in Ukraine when a cruise missile hit the hanger. (Gee, I wonder whose missile it might have been?)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 04:33:01 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877

Nevermind

Quote
Do not believe lies, Kyiv mayor says
Vitali Klitschko,
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images

Not long ago, we reported that Kyiv's mayor had told Associated Press that his city was "encircled" by Russian forces.

Now Vitali Klitschko is saying that is not the case, and it is in fact "disinformation".

Writing on the Telegram messaging app, he said: "Russian internet publications spread information with reference to me that Kyiv is allegedly surrounded and evacuation of people is impossible.

"Do not believe lies! Trust information only from official sources", he said.

As ever, the situation remains fluid.

A curfew remains in place in the capital, with many residents taking cover in basements and underground stations.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: K Frame on February 27, 2022, 05:27:34 PM
It was apparently being serviced in Ukraine when a cruise missile hit the hanger. (Gee, I wonder whose missile it might have been?)

Donald Trump's, that war-mongering cheeto bastard.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on February 27, 2022, 05:56:05 PM
Donald Trump's, that war-mongering cheeto bastard.

It wasn't really Trump's missile unless it was gold-plated.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 06:01:03 PM
Donald Trump's, that war-mongering cheeto bastard.

Orange Man Missile bad

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgD-eFXDiEZ8MumL6rRHpBW1mpFtwZKn7U7XZBYJCJb4QJYXa59AMew6vaGQYx3_Y_tiQ&usqp=CAU)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on February 27, 2022, 06:04:36 PM
I'm wondering if Putin is going to have to deal with a coup or civil war in the near future in Russia.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 06:18:48 PM
I'm wondering if Putin is going to have to deal with a coup or civil war in the near future in Russia.

After the banks open in Russia Monday morning maybe sooner than later
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on February 27, 2022, 06:22:51 PM
I'm wondering if Putin is going to have to deal with a coup or civil war in the near future in Russia.

So there was a Russian tiktok I saw yesterday that had a woman who was saying how bad she felt and how no one she knew supported this, even pro Putin voters. She also pointed out that she had protested and "done everything she could do."

I may have pointed out that she and her fellow Russians have not actually done everything they could do and they don't have to wait until October.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 27, 2022, 06:59:51 PM
I predict the western puppets in Ukraine will be replaced by Russian puppets.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 07:18:44 PM
Going to Total Wine & More tomorrow
It's the least I can do
https://www.totalwine.com/spirits/vodka/krol-premium-potato-vodka/p/235240750?s=2103&igrules=true
https://www.totalwine.com/spirits/brandy-cognac/brandy/odessa-vsop-brandy/p/235241750?s=2103&igrules=true
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on February 27, 2022, 07:39:29 PM

I may have pointed out that she and her fellow Russians have not actually done everything they could do and they don't have to wait until October.

What should they do? 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on February 27, 2022, 08:34:29 PM
What should they do?

... Was "October" not enough of a hint?  ???
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 09:10:39 PM
Quote
Roughly two-thirds of Russian forces located along the border have now been committed inside Ukraine, an increase from 24 hours earlier when about half of those forces were committed inside the country, the official said.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/airspace-over-ukraine-still-contested-senior-us-defense-official
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: 230RN on February 27, 2022, 09:20:01 PM
I understood from a snippet of news that they're releasing guns to the population?

Should I laugh, or cry?

A well regulated (trained, equipped) militia...
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: bedlamite on February 27, 2022, 09:34:09 PM
(https://yt3.ggpht.com/rak3EEVcL7HLGrZDiSDt7Xupbdb-RzGrk2P0EvuiXuuPZeotU5j2x5j5iLi8hgdn6YMVO2-KwRfx=s651-nd-v1)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 27, 2022, 09:52:45 PM
I understood from a snippet of news that they're releasing guns to the population?

Should I laugh, or cry?

A well regulated (trained, equipped) militia...
I have seen mentions of Ukraine giving guns to citizens and providing training for months, long before the recent fighting.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on February 27, 2022, 10:18:19 PM
I have seen mentions of Ukraine giving guns to citizens and providing training for months, long before the recent fighting.
I don’t think any guns were actually passed out until the bear was at the door, so to speak.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 10:49:21 PM
Rouble down 40%

Ukraine conflict: Russian rouble plunges after new sanctions announced
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60550992
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: 230RN on February 27, 2022, 11:27:07 PM
I don’t think any guns were actually passed out until the bear was at the door, so to speak.

So what'd they train with, broomsticks?

Brits, Battle of Britain Home Guard:

    (https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article6835060.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/I151113_155233_5417782oTextTRMRMMGLPICT000076558107o.jpg)

...being necessary to a free state...

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 27, 2022, 11:33:23 PM
I've seen films of US Army troops in the 1930s training with broom sticks
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on February 27, 2022, 11:38:41 PM
So what'd they train with, broomsticks?

Brits, Battle of Britain Home Guard:

    (https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article6835060.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/I151113_155233_5417782oTextTRMRMMGLPICT000076558107o.jpg)

...being necessary to a free state...

Things have changed a lot in Old Blighty . . . buggers probably confiscated the donated arms (if they were ever issued) as soon as the invasion threat abated. I expect the Ukraine government will do the same assuming the russkies don't prevail.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.armoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/send-gun-to-british-home.jpg?w=600&ssl=1)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 12:09:32 AM
Quote
There are reports that Belarus - which has acted as a springboard for Russian troops - is now preparing to send its own soldiers into Ukraine to assist in the Russian invasion.
The Washington Post, citing an unnamed US official, said that Belarus was preparing for a troop deployment that could begin as soon as today.

The BBC has emailed the White House and Pentagon for confirmation.
Quote
On Sunday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said that Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko had pledged to him in a phone call that Belarussian troops would not be sent into Ukraine.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 12:11:25 AM
Quote
Japan’s former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has controversially suggested his country should consider allowing the US to base nuclear weapons in his country, following Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 12:17:59 AM
Ukrainian Farmer Steals Russian Tank - LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE2wKSFu_JY
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: kgbsquirrel on February 28, 2022, 01:04:44 AM
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877

Belarus is dealing with a coup right now.  The woman who "lost" the last election for prime minister there and had to flee the country to save their life has openly declared themselves leader of Belarus.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 28, 2022, 08:00:31 AM
Nothing has happened in the last few weeks that I all of a sudden believe anything the globalist media establishment is pushing.

Whatever has happened or is happening in Ukraine I'm confident saying we are not being told anything that resembles reality.


Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 08:16:29 AM
"Peace" talks.
As far as Putin is concerned peace more than likely means handing over of the disputed areas and Zelensky,  instillation of a puppet government in Kyiv, and the permanent stationing of Russian troops in Ukraine.
I don't see this going very far unless Putin is willing to back down which is unlikely
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on February 28, 2022, 08:22:58 AM
"Peace" talks.
As far as Putin is concerned peace more than likely means handing over of the disputed areas and Zelensky,  instillation of a puppet government in Kyiv, and the permanent stationing of Russian troops in Ukraine.
I don't see this going very far unless Putin is willing to back down which is unlikely

I'm guessing peace talks is bait to lure Zelensky for an assassination.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on February 28, 2022, 08:28:40 AM
So what'd they train with, broomsticks?
Some brought their own gun.  Some used sticks.  Others used shotguns, wooden cutouts, or just thin air.
(https://dw-wp-production.imgix.net/2022/02/50FCFF43-051B-4BCB-AD51-80DA231552FB-scaled.jpeg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on February 28, 2022, 08:53:46 AM
In WWII, sometimes the Soviets (Ukrainians were part of that) sent assaults against the nazis who were unarmed - they were instructed to pick up the rifles casualties dropped. ARMED political officers enforced compliance.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 09:05:19 AM
Scott Manley on how this will be effecting space programs in various countries.
You can tell this is a video he did not want to make.

The Ways Russia's Invasion Ukraine Will Affect Space Programs - Deep Space Updates Feb 27th
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V-lj-jCqe8
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 28, 2022, 09:51:19 AM
I'm guessing peace talks is bait to lure Zelensky for an assassination.

That, or capture.

"If you want to see your president alive again, surrender."
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on February 28, 2022, 09:56:27 AM
Nothing has happened in the last few weeks that I all of a sudden believe anything the globalist media establishment is pushing.

Whatever has happened or is happening in Ukraine I'm confident saying we are not being told anything that resembles reality.

Honest question - what part do you not believe?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 10:06:00 AM
Wow, now we have some cracks in Switzerland's long standing neutrality.

Quote
Switzerland to adopt EU sanctions against Russia

Imogen Foulkes

BBC News, Geneva

After some soul-searching, neutral Switzerland will adopt all EU sanctions against Russia.

There will be no exceptions: five oligarchs have already been banned from entering Switzerland, the bank accounts of all 336 people on the EU’s list, including Vladimir Putin and Sergei Lavrov, will be frozen with immediate effect.

Swiss banks are believed to hold billions of dollars in Russian funds.

The country's air space is closed to Russian aircraft, while Swiss airlines have cancelled their flights to Russia.

Make no mistake, this is a huge step for Switzerland, which has often agonised over what being neutral actually means.

Today Swiss President Ignazio Cassis made it clear: the attack on Ukraine was an unacceptable attack on freedom and democracy, "playing into the hands of aggression is not neutral", neither is standing by while the Geneva Conventions, which Switzerland is home to, are "trampled underfoot".
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on February 28, 2022, 10:13:59 AM
It's the MSM, so take it for what it's worth, but I saw several analyst interviews on the teevee in the last couple of days talking about Putin no longer being right in the head. They had said that he's been becoming more and more reclusive over the last couple of years, and that lately, he has become downright irrational.

Obviously our media and leftist politicians said the same thing about Trump, but if Putin is in fact becoming irrational, that could make things sporty.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on February 28, 2022, 10:14:25 AM
In WWII, sometimes the Soviets (Ukrainians were part of that) sent assaults against the nazis who were unarmed - they were instructed to pick up the rifles casualties dropped. ARMED political officers enforced compliance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXDefDi-iYo#t=8m42s

"The one with the rifle shoots!  The one without follows him!  When the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots!"
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 10:27:03 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXDefDi-iYo#t=8m42s

"The one with the rifle shoots!  The one without follows him!  When the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots!"

Hollywood
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 10:36:33 AM
Not sure why the UN bothers when Russia can veto anything they want.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 10:48:11 AM
What the heck?
Is this real?
Maybe a photo op thing but still weird

https://twitter.com/jonkarl/status/1498305596709163014

Recent photo of Russian President Vladimir Putin suggests that there’s something to all those rumors that he’s losing what’s left of his mind
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/02/28/recent-photo-of-russian-president-vladimir-putin-suggests-that-theres-something-to-all-those-rumors-that-hes-losing-whats-left-of-his-mind/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 28, 2022, 10:58:35 AM
I've seen films of US Army troops in the 1930s training with broom sticks
Was that with fake machine guns?  They should still have had plenty of 1903 rifles.  I wonder how much of that was political theatre trying to lobby for more funding. 


They were certainly short of tanks at one point.  If you look at what equipment the US Army had in 1935 versus say 1941, they did arm up quite a bit.  Had we been dragged into war a couple years earlier, it might have messed up development of some of the equipment we used.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on February 28, 2022, 11:16:49 AM
Honest question - what part do you not believe?

It's easier for me to say what I do believe.

That Russia is moving troops into Ukraine seems to be well verified by multiple non news sources as well as official sources. I can believe it is true.

Most everything else is subject to fabrication and distortion from the government/media psychological warfare systems we've been manipulated with for decades.   

Why, after having been lied to about just about every major event in our lives are we willing to believe the system about anything? I don't have to believe what they are saying is all lies, I just don't have to believe they are telling me the whole truth.

The system has failed us as a truthful source of information. Everything that is official information or is reported by "legitimate" news sources is potentially a flat out lie, carefully curated "truth",  purposeful disinformation, manipulation, misdirection, persuasion and most likely has ulterior purposes beyond informing the public. This isn't a conspiracy theory. Any single one of us could start a list of official lies we've been told by government or that has been promulgated by our media and the list would be long. We would then be able to add to that list every day or every so often as we remember another "not truth".

The thing is, it's easier to just go with the flow and not rock the boat. Generally, none of the official nonsense seemed to impact our day to day lives substantially. That wasn't really true though and these last two years have driven that home. Reflecting on this reality of official bad information flooding society has been something I've been thinking about for years now.

When people in my life who I have direct contact with lie to me regularly I stop believing what they tell me. Usually, I stop interacting with them as much as possible and I certainly don't make major life decisions based upon on their testimony.

Our government regularly lies to us, the media regularly lies, our major corporations go along with the lies, the universities and educational systems are all in on the multiple streams of lies.

Why believe any of them? I know it's easier to fit in if you go with the flow but at what cost to your own understanding of reality? They are demonstrable liars, if not liars then, being charitable, they are often wrong in catastrophic, amazingly 180 degree ways.

This mindset is still a work in progress. I still find myself wanting to believe. It would be great if the MAGA/Trump rhetoricians were truthful, they won control and made things better. Unfortunately I've noticed the cracks in the Trump storyline and I can't unsee them, not to mention the cracks in our official mythos. I really want to believe there is a movement that believes in the America myth that can get voted in and "make America great again". I'm just working hard to not ignore the incoherencies in that whole storyline.

Anyway, you asked, I hope that sheds light on where I'm coming from regarding (not) believing the authorities. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 11:24:37 AM
Another photo showing Putin at the end of a long table with everyone else far away at the other end.
Some are speculating he doesn't want anyone close enough to try something. I don't know but if true it says something about Putin and Russian in general at the moment.
Or maybe it's some form of extreme COVID social distancing

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1498037394230194187
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on February 28, 2022, 11:29:31 AM
Thanks, Ron. 

I don't disagree.  News media is normally a twisted mess of fact, fiction, biases and skewed interpretations.  In time of war I expect it to be even worse.

At this point, I do believe that Russian soldiers are invading and attempting to take control of Ukraine.  I also believe that the sanctions are real, as are the stated delivery of arms and money.

I don't know that I'm being presented with a narrative asking me to believe unsubstantiated things beyond that... at least not yet. Part of my question to you was to see if there are lies and propaganda that I'm not recognizing... People who can think clearly and independently can help others see what's making it though their own filter.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 28, 2022, 11:38:09 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXDefDi-iYo#t=8m42s

"The one with the rifle shoots!  The one without follows him!  When the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots!"

You're not the only one who thought of that.  ;)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 11:48:02 AM
Was that with fake machine guns?  They should still have had plenty of 1903 rifles.  I wonder how much of that was political theatre trying to lobby for more funding. 


I believe so. IIRC also using logs as anti-tank guns
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 11:55:00 AM
Getting hit hard even before the sanctions

Quote
Forbes estimated on Thursday that 116 billionaires had already lost more than $126bn since 16 February, and Russia's richest man, Vladimir Potanin, personally lost $3bn in a single day's trading last week. Since then, the economic picture has worsened.

Two Russian oligarchs call for end of Ukraine invasion
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 11:59:50 AM
Reports the Ukrainians on that island are alive

Quote
Ukrainian soldiers who were reportedly attacked on Zmiinyi (Snake) island are still alive, according to a statement posted on Facebook

by Ukraine's naval services.

"We are very happy to learn that our brothers are alive and well," the statement posted on Monday said.

The sailors "rebuked twice the attacks of the Russian invaders," but could no longer continue to protect the island, the statement continued.

Connection with the island was completely cut off and attempts to reach the sailors futile, after Russian armed forces destroyed its infrastructure, the navy said.

On Friday we reported how Ukraine was honouring 13 soldiers it said were killed while defending the island from Russian attacks.

Captured Ukrainian marines and guards alive - Navy
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 28, 2022, 01:10:47 PM
https://www.naval-technology.com/news/turkey-ban-warships-black-sea/

Quote
Turkey is set to implement parts of an international pact that would potentially ban Russian warships from entering the Black Sea through a key transit point.

According to a Reuters report, Turkey said that the situation in Ukraine has turned into a ‘war’. This recognition will enable the country to prevent warships from accessing the Black Sea through Dardanelles and Bosphorus straits.

In an interview with broadcaster CNN Turk, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said: “It is not a couple of air strikes now, the situation in Ukraine is officially a war. We will implement the Montreux Convention.”

The 1936 Montreux Convention enables Turkey to prevent naval ships not based in Black Sea from entering during war or other specific circumstances.

Interesting turn of phrase.  I can see Putin declaring "all Russian naval vessels are based in the Black Sea, effective immediately."

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on February 28, 2022, 01:39:57 PM
https://www.naval-technology.com/news/turkey-ban-warships-black-sea/

Interesting turn of phrase.  I can see Putin declaring "all Russian naval vessels are based in the Black Sea, effective immediately."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet

The Black Sea Fleet is the third largest of the Russian Navy, behind only the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet.  They are plenty to control that little pond.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 04:08:43 PM
Went to Total Wine & More and picked up some Ukrainian Vodka and Brandy.
They pulled all the Russian stuff off the shelves.

Would it be ironic to make Black Russians with the vodka?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 04:30:12 PM
Quote
Three-quarters of Russian troops committed now inside Ukraine, Pentagon says

The US Defence Department says that almost 75% of the Russian forces assembled on Ukraine's borders are now inside the country.

The main advance of troops is now positioned about 25 km from the capital Kyiv, roughly a 5 km gain since Sunday.

Soldiers have yet to capture two key cities: Kharkiv in the northeast and Mariupol in the South.

As Western officials have previously noted, troops are not making the progress they had planned due to logistical issues and fierce resistance by Ukrainian fighters.

“They're using pretty much everything that they have in their arsenal, from small arms all the way up to surface to air missiles to try to slow down the Russians,” a senior US defence official said.

The official said the US has not seen any indications yet of specific Russian movements with regard to President Putin's nuclear deterrence announcement on Sunday.

The Pentagon is also yet to see Belarusian forces moving to provide backup to the Russians.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 28, 2022, 04:39:09 PM
Interesting.  I am kind of curious how long of a fight Russia planned for. 

I heard someone say yesterday they thought Russia had a few objectives that may not involve taking over the Ukraine and may at some point decide he has completed them and pull out.  I will believe it when I see it.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 05:06:37 PM
Looks like the Russians are about to hit Kyiv hard

Quote
Huge Russian convoy advances on Kyiv
The images show the 17-mile long convoy advancing on Kyiv
MaxarCopyright: Maxar
The images show the 17-mile long convoy advancing on KyivImage caption: The images show the 17-mile long convoy advancing on Kyiv

Newly released satellite imagery show a massive convoy of Russian armour descending on Kyiv.

Pictures taken on Monday, before noon in Ukraine, show Russian military units near Antonov airport, about 27km (17 miles) from the centre of the capital.

According to Maxar Technologies, the satellite-imaging company that released the photos, the convoy is nearly 17 miles long (27km) and "contains hundreds of armoured vehicles, tanks, towed artillery and logistics support vehicles".
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 05:52:20 PM
Beer prices may increase due to Ukraine invasion
A significant percentage of barley used for beer comes from Ukraine
https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/beer-prices-increase-ukraine-invasion

(https://c.tenor.com/wDzr_DRyv8oAAAAM/omg-cat.gif)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 28, 2022, 06:22:56 PM
Beer prices may increase due to Ukraine invasion
A significant percentage of barley used for beer comes from Ukraine
https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/beer-prices-increase-ukraine-invasion


War is hell.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: fifth_column on February 28, 2022, 06:27:41 PM
War is hell.

Whenever I read this I hear the comment as Harry Welsh said it to Dick Winters in Band of Brothers.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 07:40:30 PM
Quote
REAKING
Russian convoy 'stretches up to 40 miles'
Satellite imagery company Maxar Technology says that earlier reports indicating the column of Russian armour advancing on Kyiv is 17 miles (27km) long are inaccurate.

The convoy actually stretches about 40 miles, according to Maxar.

The company added that new images also show ground troops and attack helicopters in southern Belarus, less than 20 miles from the Ukraine border.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 08:05:52 PM
Time for a little Ukrainian vodka.
And I don't even like vodka.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 08:09:27 PM
I don't know how this is going to turn out but I do know a lot of people have and are going to die. A toast to all of them.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2022, 08:38:35 PM
(https://images.morishirt.com/2022/02/funny-official-st-javelin-the-protector-of-ukraine-t-shirt-hoodie.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on February 28, 2022, 09:26:06 PM
I know nothing about this woman, but she apparently has credibility, and this looks like a solid assessment:

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 28, 2022, 09:34:11 PM
Whenever I read this I hear the comment as Harry Welsh said it to Dick Winters in Band of Brothers.
I hear it as Ted Striker in Airplane!.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on February 28, 2022, 09:35:52 PM
General Milley Calls Russia To Warn Them Of Ukrainian Counter-Attack
https://babylonbee.com/news/general-milley-calls-russia-to-warn-them-of-ukrainian-counter-attack

Quote
Unfortunately, Milley was unable to connect with Putin, who was already on the other line with Biden.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on February 28, 2022, 10:14:35 PM
My question is why are there dumbfuk politicians/political folks throwing support to the Russians. Don't claim it's miss interpreted, they knew what they were saying.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on February 28, 2022, 11:14:26 PM
Putin's "bizarre" speech about Nazis and drug addicts running Ukraine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J55cSx8Rz_g
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: grampster on March 01, 2022, 07:50:59 AM
Hopefully, someone or some group understand the negative ramifications of Putin's mental illness and usher Putin out of office.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 01, 2022, 08:11:14 AM
Hopefully, someone or some group understand the negative ramifications of Putin's mental illness and usher Putin out of office.

I've been hoping the military would turn on him.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 01, 2022, 08:12:18 AM
Looks like the ruskies have broken out both the Sardaukar Chechens and the thermobaric weapons.

I wasn't really familiar with thermobaric weapons so did some research. Apparently they can basically vaporize people within some diameter of the blast zone and create some slower acting internal damage well outside the blast zone. They are using not just thermobaric bombs, but man portable thermobarics as well. The news is calling it a war crime, however I read that we used them at various times in the ME over the last 30ish years, as well as Vietnam, so we might not want to be throwing stones in the glass house.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 01, 2022, 08:45:39 AM
Zelensky asking for Ukraine to be admitted into the EU.
Can you say WW-III?
Stay tuned.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 01, 2022, 08:53:06 AM
Looks like the ruskies have broken out both the Sardaukar Chechens and the thermobaric weapons.

I wasn't really familiar with thermobaric weapons so did some research. Apparently they can basically vaporize people within some diameter of the blast zone and create some slower acting internal damage well outside the blast zone. They are using not just thermobaric bombs, but man portable thermobarics as well. The news is calling it a war crime, however I read that we used them at various times in the ME over the last 30ish years, as well as Vietnam, so we might not want to be throwing stones in the glass house.

I was under the impression the MOAB our military used in Afghanistan was a thermobaric bomb.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 01, 2022, 09:08:56 AM
I was under the impression the MOAB our military used in Afghanistan was a thermobaric bomb.

Actually no, the MOAB isn't a fuel air explosive, it's just a really big bomb.

The US does have several FAE (a type of thermobaric weapons) in our inventory that we have used in the GWOT.  Bombs, Cluster bombs, rockets, and I think we even had an FAE round for the M203.  It might have been a Mk-19 only, but I know I've seen 40mm FAE rounds.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 01, 2022, 09:19:30 AM
Actually no, the MOAB isn't a fuel air explosive, it's just a really big bomb.

The US does have several FAE (a type of thermobaric weapons) in our inventory that we have used in the GWOT.  Bombs, Cluster bombs, rockets, and I think we even had an FAE round for the M203.  It might have been a Mk-19 only, but I know I've seen 40mm FAE rounds.
GBU-43/B Massive Ordnance Air Blast Bomb

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-mother-of-all-bombs-that-the-u-s-just-dropped-on-afghanistan/
Quote
“When they blow up, they blast fuel into the air,” Priest explains. “That fuel atomizes. Then there’s a secondary explosion that lights the fuel that’s been atomized.”
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 01, 2022, 09:21:51 AM
I am pretty sure we have used thermobaric bombs in Afghanistan to blow up caves thought to be housing Taliban.  I have heard there are RPG type weapons with thermobaric warheads designed to be shot into structures or bunkers to kill people inside. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 01, 2022, 09:34:18 AM
GBU-43/B Massive Ordnance Air Blast Bomb

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-mother-of-all-bombs-that-the-u-s-just-dropped-on-afghanistan/

Far be it for me to from me to disagree with Scientific American, but the GBU-43/B is based on the BLU-82 Daisy cutter, and uses a *expletive deleted*it ton of conventional explosives.  IIRC the Dasiy Cutter used AN and Aluminum.  The MOAB uses H-6 (I had to look that up though). 

Quote from: https://www.justsecurity.org/40022/the-mother-bombs-understanding-massive-ordnance-air-blast-weapon/
The MOAB must be distinguished from the class of volumetric weapons, such as thermobaric weapons and fuel-air explosive weapons that have been used against fighters within cave complexes in Afghanistan.  Those use various means to create a cloud of burning particles with a wide blast radius and intense fireball.  When employed in a confined area, such as caves, thermobaric weapons can create a powerful vacuum as a secondary effect that adds to their lethality.

The MOAB is a conventional explosive weapon.  It results in an initial fireball from the explosion and a subsequent pressure wave caused by the creation of large quantities of gases at high temperatures.

I am pretty sure we have used thermobaric bombs in Afghanistan to blow up caves thought to be housing Taliban.  I have heard there are RPG type weapons with thermobaric warheads designed to be shot into structures or bunkers to kill people inside. 

We have a thermobaric version of the SMAW. I had a couple on the boat for frisky IRGNs.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 01, 2022, 09:40:38 AM
Far be it for me to from me to disagree with Scientific American, but the GBU-43/B is based on the BLU-82 Daisy cutter, and uses a *expletive deleted*it ton of conventional explosives.  IIRC the Dasiy Cutter used AN and Aluminum.  The MOAB uses H-6 (I had to look that up though). 


Almost shocked 3/4s of that "Scientific" "American" article wasn't about the bomb's effect on climate change
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 01, 2022, 09:52:16 AM
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/FMxRs3YXwAghOAg.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 01, 2022, 11:37:19 AM
Far be it for me to from me to disagree with Scientific American, but the GBU-43/B is based on the BLU-82 Daisy cutter, and uses a *expletive deleted*it ton of conventional explosives.  IIRC the Dasiy Cutter used AN and Aluminum.  The MOAB uses H-6 (I had to look that up though). 

We have a thermobaric version of the SMAW. I had a couple on the boat for frisky IRGNs.
Thanks.  I was thinking it was a fuel air bomb, but most of the links stopped short of saying that.  I guess that is why.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 01, 2022, 11:41:11 AM
Quote
Some clarity on that massive Russian armoured column heading south towards Kyiv.

Close analysis of the latest satellite images by McKenzie Intelligence Services reveals the following:

    The convoy is not 40 miles long, it’s a series of logistical ‘packets’ strung out along a major highway from the Belarus border, aiming to link up with Russian units on the northern outskirts of Kyiv.
    The convoy appears to be hampered in several places by broken down vehicles.
    The column consists of some armour (tanks) and infantry fighting vehicles but mainly logistical vehicles, implying plans for more than just a brief battle.

Separately, the imagery examined by McKenzie Intelligence Services shows a Russian parachute battalion dug in to the area of Hostomel airfield - Ukraine's most important international cargo airport and a key military airbase near Kyiv.

But their artillery is assessed to be outside the range of most of the capital.

The analysts say they have noted very little Russian progress over the past 24 hours.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60542877
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Boomhauer on March 01, 2022, 11:44:20 AM
I hope the Ukrainians slaughter that logistics column.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: K Frame on March 01, 2022, 12:09:07 PM
I hope the Ukrainians slaughter that logistics column.


Let's hope that they do it in a manner that doesn't add to the world's carbon footprint and doesn't enhance global warming.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 01, 2022, 12:09:50 PM
I hope the Ukrainians slaughter that logistics column.
I am curious what security they have along the route to keep infantry from attacking the trucks.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: K Frame on March 01, 2022, 12:12:59 PM
In case anyone isn't watching...

WTI crude is up just $10 a barrel today, now sitting at $105 and it's showing absolutely no signs of slowing down. Brent is about $1 a barrel higher.

Seems like the perfect time to push wind and solar. That will bring oil prices down in a matter if minutes!

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 01, 2022, 12:19:33 PM
I hope the Ukrainians slaughter that logistics column.
Javelin missiles have a 2.5km range, so that's an indication of how far out the Ivans have to push their security perimeter.


Let's hope that they do it in a manner that doesn't add to the world's carbon footprint and doesn't enhance global warming.

Hey K Frame, check your security settings - I think John Kerry may have hacked your account.  ;)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 01, 2022, 12:19:52 PM
In case anyone isn't watching...

WTI crude is up just $10 a barrel today, now sitting at $105 and it's showing absolutely no signs of slowing down. Brent is about $1 a barrel higher.

Seems like the perfect time to push wind and solar. That will bring oil prices down in a matter if minutes!

Actually they are in effect doing just that

Quote
Ukraine war shows fossil fuels are dead - UN chief

Justin Rowlatt

Climate editor
Russian workers assembling gas pipeline
ReutersCopyright: Reuters

The war in Ukraine should encourage the world to accelerate the switch to renewable energy, UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres has said.

His message comes as the UN issues its bleakest assessment yet of how climate change is affecting the world.

"Fossil fuels are a dead end," Guterres said.

The UN chief said the conflict in Ukraine shows continuing to rely on fossil fuels "makes the global economy and energy security vulnerable to geopolitical shocks and crises".

He added that a "prompt, well-managed transition to renewables" is the only pathway to energy security and the green jobs the world needs.

A quarter of the European Union's petroleum oil imports come from Russia, along with almost half its gas.

The irony that European nations are effectively paying for the war in Ukraine has not been lost on the continent's leaders.

The panic that Putin's actions caused in energy markets has only increased the profits Russia makes by driving up the price we all pay for energy - which is one reason we are already seeing a dramatic pivot to alternative supplies.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 01, 2022, 12:51:47 PM
In case anyone isn't watching...

WTI crude is up just $10 a barrel today, now sitting at $105 and it's showing absolutely no signs of slowing down. Brent is about $1 a barrel higher.

Seems like the perfect time to push wind and solar. That will bring oil prices down in a matter if minutes!



I think AOC is teaching them economics. Press Sec said that the US ramping up oil production will not change the price.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: K Frame on March 01, 2022, 01:00:52 PM
I think AOC is teaching them economics. Press Sec said that the US ramping up oil production will not change the price.


Yep, and that harkens right back to my comments that Democrats don't care about high oil and gas prices or pump pain for Americans because they WANT American to be punished for proving that St. Barak was wrong when he said you can't drill your way to lower gas prices.

How DARE they prove him wrong!
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 01, 2022, 01:15:41 PM
It would be nice if both the western globalists installed to run Ukraine and KGB Putin lost.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 01, 2022, 03:46:12 PM
In case anyone isn't watching...

WTI crude is up just $10 a barrel today, now sitting at $105 and it's showing absolutely no signs of slowing down. Brent is about $1 a barrel higher.

Seems like the perfect time to push wind and solar. That will bring oil prices down in a matter if minutes!

Well, I guess I'm doing my part against the ruskies. BP pulled all their Russian operations, and my BP stock tanked.

And yes, Psaki has been doing nothing but pushing wind and solar and she also brought up that it was "big oil" that stopped Keystone and it was "big oil's" fault that we're not drilling and becoming energy independent. Also that it is big business buying all the Russian oil right now, and the US government can't do anything about that.

I mean, all those domestic leases are sitting there waiting to be drilled! What's stopping these selfish corporations from drilling tomorrow?!?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 01, 2022, 03:53:29 PM
CBS News has their finger on the important parts of this conflict.

https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/01/as-ukraine-fights-for-survival-cbs-news-is-focused-like-a-laser-on-the-war-within-a-war-on-one-transgender-woman-in-kyiv-video/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on March 01, 2022, 04:47:35 PM
Well, I guess I'm doing my part against the ruskies. BP pulled all their Russian operations, and my BP stock tanked.

And yes, Psaki has been doing nothing but pushing wind and solar and she also brought up that it was "big oil" that stopped Keystone and it was "big oil's" fault that we're not drilling and becoming energy independent. Also that it is big business buying all the Russian oil right now, and the US government can't do anything about that.

I mean, all those domestic leases are sitting there waiting to be drilled! What's stopping these selfish corporations from drilling tomorrow?!?


They’re like the abusive boyfriend blaming the girlfriend for all the times he has to beat her.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Boomhauer on March 01, 2022, 05:45:35 PM
Well, I guess I'm doing my part against the ruskies. BP pulled all their Russian operations, and my BP stock tanked.

And yes, Psaki has been doing nothing but pushing wind and solar and she also brought up that it was "big oil" that stopped Keystone and it was "big oil's" fault that we're not drilling and becoming energy independent. Also that it is big business buying all the Russian oil right now, and the US government can't do anything about that.

I mean, all those domestic leases are sitting there waiting to be drilled! What's stopping these selfish corporations from drilling tomorrow?!?


If there was anyone in that administration I could slap across the face it would be that tranny Mark Zuckerburg looking bitch Psaki. God I hate her and her attitude a thousand times more than Biden or Harris. Hell I think I hate her more than Pelosi.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 01, 2022, 05:49:44 PM
If there was anyone in that administration I could slap across the face it would be that tranny Mark Zuckerburg looking bitch Psaki. God I hate her and her attitude a thousand times more than Biden or Harris. Hell I think I hate her more than Pelosi.

So you want to date her.

 =D =D =D
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on March 01, 2022, 05:55:12 PM
So you want to date her.

 =D =D =D

During the Obama administration, I thought she looked like a scared albino rabbit. I'm not sure what happened, tanning beds?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 01, 2022, 06:31:26 PM
During the Obama administration, I thought she looked like a scared albino rabbit. I'm not sure what happened, tanning beds?

The more souls a ginger steals the darker the hue.

She has better hunting now.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 01, 2022, 06:35:44 PM
Almost shocked 3/4s of that "Scientific" "American" article wasn't about the bomb's effect on climate change

Women, children and minorities affected the worst.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 01, 2022, 06:39:19 PM

Let's hope that they do it in a manner that doesn't add to the world's carbon footprint and doesn't enhance global warming.

Women, children and minorities affected the worst.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 01, 2022, 07:35:48 PM
Where is the Russian air force?

https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/mysterious-case-missing-russian-air-force
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 01, 2022, 07:43:37 PM
Where is the Russian air force?

https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/mysterious-case-missing-russian-air-force

Modern  jets are expensive, conscripts are cheap.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 01, 2022, 07:57:16 PM
Well several of them have been shot down by the Ghost.....
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 01, 2022, 08:45:27 PM
Kamala Harris explains the Ukraine/Russia conflict

https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1498742845196443649

My head hurts
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 01, 2022, 09:13:57 PM
Modern  jets are expensive, conscripts are cheap.
I imagine the parts and service are expensive as well as the ground crew and fuel.  Not to mention the bombs and such. 

If a few have been shot down, that only increases the cost. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 01, 2022, 09:29:23 PM
Kamala Harris explains the Ukraine/Russia conflict

https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1498742845196443649

My head hurts

Spoken like a six-year-old.

The sad thing is: that's probably all she knows about Ukraine.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: bedlamite on March 01, 2022, 09:44:14 PM
No clue if it's related

https://en-volve.com/2022/02/28/bombshell-docs-leaked-from-top-secret-ukraine-biolab-show-u-s-was-performing-deadly-biological-experiments-on-ukrainian-soldiers/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on March 01, 2022, 10:50:19 PM
No clue if it's related

https://en-volve.com/2022/02/28/bombshell-docs-leaked-from-top-secret-ukraine-biolab-show-u-s-was-performing-deadly-biological-experiments-on-ukrainian-soldiers/

Or is it disinformation released by Russia
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 01, 2022, 11:55:49 PM
Kamala Harris explains the Ukraine/Russia conflict

https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1498742845196443649

My head hurts
About as profound as when DeGaulle said "China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."

Or when Keppel Enderberry asserted that "Traditionally, most of Australia's imports come from overseas.”
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 08:16:34 AM
Think we've entered the "now it gets nasty" phase.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 02, 2022, 09:08:53 AM
Heard a rumor from one of the talking heads that the Russian conscripts invading Ukraine aren't happy about it - some have allegedly poked holes in their vehicle fuel tanks so they'd run out of gas and not be able to proceed forward.

If true, I have to wonder - does the current Russian army have any current equivalent to the zampolits - political officers - of the Soviet era? You know, the ones who'd shoot the occasional malcontent, just to keep the others on their toes?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 02, 2022, 09:15:20 AM
About as profound as when DeGaulle said "China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."

Or when Keppel Enderberry asserted that "Traditionally, most of Australia's imports come from overseas.”
To me, you can interpret two ways:  "She doesn't know anything about the You Crane" or "She thinks her audience is so stupid that she has to dumb it down to kindergarten level".  Neither is a good thing.  If Biden dropped out as President, I think she would actually be a worse President which is not an easy thing to do. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 02, 2022, 09:58:29 AM
To me, you can interpret two ways:  "She doesn't know anything about the You Crane" or "She thinks her audience is so stupid that she has to dumb it down to kindergarten level".  Neither is a good thing.  If Biden dropped out as President, I think she would actually be a worse President which is not an easy thing to do.
At least with Biden there's someone behind him pulling his strings who is competent in their own way, although I'm 180 degrees away from them on almost every issue.

With Kamala, I'm not sure she'd listen to anyone else, so what you see is what we'd get. I see her as lazy, vacillating, and indecisive, which is much worse for a POTUS than a competent (or semi-competent) person pulling the strings on the person Elon Musk described as a wet sock puppet.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 10:13:08 AM
Quote
Russian primary school children detained for anti-war protest

Gabriel Gatehouse

BBC Newsnight

When I saw reports and photographs on Tuesday suggesting that primary school children had been arrested by police in Moscow for laying flowers at the Ukrainian embassy and holding signs saying “No to war” I refused to believe it was real.

But now it has been confirmed by the Nobel prize-winning newspaper Novaya Gazeta. In an update the newspaper says the children have since been released.

The images show the children with officers behind metal bars, perhaps in a police vehicle, and then in a police station, holding their flowers and placards.

The Kremlin appears to be taking increasingly draconian measures to try to keep a grip on its war narrative.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60582327
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 10:13:53 AM
As I said in another thread
Putin may be having his Ceaușescu moment soon.
What worriers me the most about that is what is he willing to take with him
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 11:09:09 AM
Quote
Russia wants to reinstate fugitive Ukrainian leader - report

Russia wants to declare former Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych - ousted during anti-government protests in 2013-14 - as the new leader of Ukraine, the Ukrayinska Pravda news and analysis website has reported, quoting Ukrainian intelligence.

Yanukovych is now in Minsk, according to the Ukrainian website's source. He fled to Russia in 2014.

The Kremlin may be preparing a media operation or campaign to bring Yanukovych back to Ukraine, or publish an address from him to the Ukrainian people, the newspaper said.

In January the UK said Moscow was plotting to install a pro-Moscow figure to lead Ukraine's government.

The Foreign Office named former Ukrainian MP Yevhen Murayev as a potential Kremlin candidate.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60582327/page/2
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 02, 2022, 11:13:43 AM
Heard a rumor from one of the talking heads that the Russian conscripts invading Ukraine aren't happy about it - some have allegedly poked holes in their vehicle fuel tanks so they'd run out of gas and not be able to proceed forward.

Saw a video interview with a Russian POW who said his superiors told him they were on a training exercise.  Lying to your men is a great way to damage morale.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 11:17:03 AM
Saw a video interview with a Russian POW who said his superiors told him they were on a training exercise.  Lying to your men is a great way to damage morale.

(https://i.imgflip.com/44w9x9.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 02, 2022, 12:42:02 PM
At least with Biden there's someone behind him pulling his strings who is competent in their own way, although I'm 180 degrees away from them on almost every issue.

With Kamala, I'm not sure she'd listen to anyone else, so what you see is what we'd get. I see her as lazy, vacillating, and indecisive, which is much worse for a POTUS than a competent (or semi-competent) person pulling the strings on the person Elon Musk described as a wet sock puppet.
I am not entirely sure someone is pulling Biden's strings.  His appointees are sort of doing what they want, but I am not sure anyone but Biden is actually making decisions at the top.  I think we would see more coherent leadership if that was happening. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 12:59:34 PM
I figured Georgia would lay low in all of this but they just did a big "Hey, look at me!"

Quote
Georgia to apply to join EU immediately - ruling party

Georgia - a former Soviet state on the eastern shore of the Black Sea - will "immediately" apply for EU membership, its ruling party Georgian Dream says.

It comes a day after the European Parliament backed Ukraine's bid to apply for EU membership.

Georgian Dream's Chairman Irakli Kobakhidze told reporters he was calling on the EU "to review our application in an urgent manner and to make the decision to grant Georgia the status of an EU membership candidate".

Georgia has seen big demonstrations against the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Russia has controlled two Georgian regions - South Ossetia and Abkhazia - since 2008, when Russian forces ousted Georgian troops from them.

It followed a Georgian attempt to recapture South Ossetia, which had fought a separatist war against Georgia in the 1990s.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60582327
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 02, 2022, 01:15:31 PM
The (second to) last thing I want to see from this is strengthening of the EU.  To hell with the EU.

The EU was a mistake from the get-go.  It's already got problems with PIGS, it needs to sort out its productivity/revenue/currency printing problems with member states before allowing any more to enter.

The EU isn't going to protect Ukraine or Georgia.  NATO membership certainly will though.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 02, 2022, 01:44:36 PM
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275006893_5334867346546373_5145723058498557314_n.png?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=sNf-nPz6tL8AX-xFrJf&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=00_AT9JbjyhOGsRIaReZ6BQjz-zuGrPwqAENdGZAq_fV9gAbg&oe=62258252)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 01:55:37 PM
Quote
US ambassador calls UN vote 'historic'
UN delegates applaud after the resolution was passed
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images

The US ambassador to the UN has called Wednesday's vote to condemn the Russian invasion of Ukraine "historic".

Linda Thomas-Greenfield tweeted the resolution, which was supported by 141 nations, represented an "overwhelming vote in defence of Ukraine and the UN Charter".

She had earlier called on delegates to vote in favour of the motion if they believed countries "have a right to sovereignty and territorial integrity".

Meanwhile, Samantha Power, director of US Aid and a former UN ambassador under Barack Obama, tweeted the vote marks a "global rebuke of historic proportions".

"Putin is isolated to an unprecedented degree," she wrote. "Even his longstanding partners are condemning this invasion."

Just five countries - Russia, Belarus, Syria, North Korea and Eritrea - voted against the resolution at the General Assembly's first emergency meeting since 1997.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60582327
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 02, 2022, 02:01:07 PM
^^^ What the hell, Eritrea?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 02, 2022, 02:16:34 PM
I'm a little surprised China didn't vote against the resolution, given their history with Tibet.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 02:21:04 PM
I'm a little surprised China didn't vote against the resolution, given their history with Tibet.

They abstained. I figured they would.

Quote
Russia was joined by Belarus, which has served as a launch pad for Russian invasion forces, Eritrea, North Korea and Syria in voting against the resolution. Thirty-five members, including China, abstained.
https://www.reuters.com/world/un-general-assembly-set-censure-russia-over-ukraine-invasion-2022-03-02/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 02, 2022, 02:33:15 PM
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275006893_5334867346546373_5145723058498557314_n.png?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=sNf-nPz6tL8AX-xFrJf&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=00_AT9JbjyhOGsRIaReZ6BQjz-zuGrPwqAENdGZAq_fV9gAbg&oe=62258252)

Come on, Man!

That's a Stinger.  SAM.  At least get the meme with a Carl Gustav.   :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 02:42:26 PM
 :facepalm:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 02:46:19 PM
Quote
Elaborating on China’s abstention, Beijing’s envoy, Zhang Jun, said the resolution did not undergo “full consultations with the whole membership” of the assembly.
https://www.reuters.com/world/un-general-assembly-set-censure-russia-over-ukraine-invasion-2022-03-02/

I'm trying to find the voting list to find out who else abstained
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 02, 2022, 03:29:05 PM
Not sure what the point is, but anyway ...

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/florida-teen-who-tracked-elon-musks-plane-now-tracking-jets-of-russian-billionaires

Quote
Sweeney has now launched @RUOligarchJets to track the helicopters, private jets and commercial-sized airplanes of Russian Oligarchs. His most recent tweets show the whereabouts of Alexander Abramov, a former scientist who became one of the two heads at Russia's largest steel producer, and Roman Abramovich, a billionaire and Chelsea football club owner.

I'm sure that said billionaires won't like it.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 02, 2022, 03:33:12 PM
Russian missile takes out brewery:

https://www.funker530.com/video/russian-missile-destroys-lisichansk-brewery/

From the comments, the brewery may have been producing Molotov cocktails.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 02, 2022, 04:00:25 PM
Quote
Russian missile takes out brewery:


That's it! Gloves are off, warm up the nukes.
Some things just can't be tolerated.
 [ar15]


But yeah, I've seen reports of the brewery witching up to make Molotov cocktails.
Some countries have all the fun. Imagine being able to swing by your local walmart and picking up a case of Molotov cocktails to the evenings peaceful protests...
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 04:24:52 PM

Some countries have all the fun. Imagine being able to swing by your local walmart and picking up a case of Molotov cocktails to the evenings peaceful protests...

Can be found in the Mostly Peaceful Protest aisle of Walmarts and Targets in many lib cities.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on March 02, 2022, 04:27:22 PM

That's it! Gloves are off, warm up the nukes.
Some things just can't be tolerated.
 [ar15]


But yeah, I've seen reports of the brewery witching up to make Molotov cocktails.
Some countries have all the fun. Imagine being able to swing by your local walmart and picking up a case of Molotov cocktails to the evenings peaceful protests...

I already can do that at Walmart. They sell glass jars, dish towels, and there is a gas station usually out front. Coleman gas in the camping section if you want to put it on one purchase.

Coleman fuel and crisco, you got naplam.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: bedlamite on March 02, 2022, 05:02:18 PM
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275006893_5334867346546373_5145723058498557314_n.png?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=sNf-nPz6tL8AX-xFrJf&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=00_AT9JbjyhOGsRIaReZ6BQjz-zuGrPwqAENdGZAq_fV9gAbg&oe=62258252)

I can't read that, the pictures are in Swedish.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 02, 2022, 05:03:41 PM
Not sure what the point is, but anyway ...

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/florida-teen-who-tracked-elon-musks-plane-now-tracking-jets-of-russian-billionaires

I'm sure that said billionaires won't like it.
Why stop with Russian billionaires?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 05:04:50 PM
I can't read that, the pictures are in Swedish.

Ran it through a translator

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR8U9Syc95u0n1fyz7ISNpBOzVwzsmuzk2QN0iyBXP94QWEJqH1vULBUQEbVgb6Td1C-VA&usqp=CAU)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: bedlamite on March 02, 2022, 05:06:17 PM
Ran it through a translator

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR8U9Syc95u0n1fyz7ISNpBOzVwzsmuzk2QN0iyBXP94QWEJqH1vULBUQEbVgb6Td1C-VA&usqp=CAU)

Thanks. That helps.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 06:26:51 PM
Family Guy - Putin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnZUsYcy6L8
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on March 02, 2022, 07:23:13 PM
Another sign the Russian invasion of Ukraine is not going as planned.  Ordinary Ukrainian citizens are apparently making off with scores of abandoned Russian tanks, self-propelled antiaircraft artillery, APCs, trucks, etc., much of which is fueled and in perfect working order.  A lot of the equipment is commonly used by the Ukrainian military, and is eventually finding its way to them.
Granted, some of the armored vehicles have been stuck in deep mud, but many pieces of gear were just left high an dry on roadways.
Russian troops have even been encountered walking back to their rear areas after abandoning their equipment.

Lots of separate tweets with video at the link below.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44511/ukrainians-citizens-are-taking-it-upon-themselves-to-capture-russian-military-vehicles (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44511/ukrainians-citizens-are-taking-it-upon-themselves-to-capture-russian-military-vehicles)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: 230RN on March 02, 2022, 11:04:46 PM

It occurs to me that there's a low but non-zero chance that Putin has agreed to provide a diversion with Ukraine while China preps an invasion of Taiwan . . .

Translated from reflections off vibrating window glass:

"Hey, if they can do it with Ukraine, we can do it with Taiwan!"

Translated from a pellet transmitter in a desk phone:

"Hey, if they can do it with Ukraine, we can do it with South Korea!"

Translated from....

Kinda shrinks yer sphincters, don't it?

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 11:05:57 PM
Someone just pointed out something.
What happened 100 years ago this year?

The founding of the Soviet Union.

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/x383/WLJohnson1/Cat%20Humor/.highres/funny-animal-gifs-animal-gifs-derpnotic.gif?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 02, 2022, 11:12:15 PM
Both CNN and NYT are reporting this

China asked Russia to delay Ukraine invasion until after Olympics, Western intel shows
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/02/world/china-russia-ukraine-invasion-olympics-western-intel/index.html
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 02, 2022, 11:23:35 PM
Story headline on foxnews.com:  "Crimea River"



*groan*
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: K Frame on March 03, 2022, 07:19:37 AM
A Russian Oligarch has put a $1 million bounty on Putin -- dead or alive.

Bit of a cheapskate, I think. He's a freaking oligarch. He can up that to $10 or $100 million without breaking a sweat. And that might get some response.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on March 03, 2022, 07:38:51 AM
A Russian Oligarch has put a $1 million bounty on Putin -- dead or alive.

Bit of a cheapskate, I think. He's a freaking oligarch. He can up that to $10 or $100 million without breaking a sweat. And that might get some response.

https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-businessman-puts-1-million-bounty-on-putins-head-2022-3
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Bogie on March 03, 2022, 07:42:46 AM
And I'll guess that that mobster likely won't be around much longer? Putin has a bigger budget...
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: K Frame on March 03, 2022, 08:28:27 AM
Whoops. I thought I pasted in the link.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on March 03, 2022, 08:33:04 AM
I think Konanykhin is just virtue signaling.  It's a start, though.  Maybe someone else will be inspired to take a risk.  In my opinion it will take a much more influential oligarch, still living in Russia and putting up a much bigger bounty, to get anyone to actually go after Putin.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 08:35:24 AM
A Russian Oligarch has put a $1 million bounty on Putin -- dead or alive.

Bit of a cheapskate, I think. He's a freaking oligarch. He can up that to $10 or $100 million without breaking a sweat. And that might get some response.

Maybe he thinks Putin will considered only 1 million as an insult.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 08:59:40 AM
Someone commented that on the bright side there's going to lots of hot Ukrainian women looking for husbands.
Hey, I didn't make the comment.



But I would be willing to take one in. It's the least I can do to help out.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 03, 2022, 12:28:24 PM
I've seen a number of stories purporting to show Russian convoys obliterated by Ukrainians, stories of Russian soldiers deserting and abandoning their equipment, Russians refusing orders to shell cities, Ukrainians asking for bombs for their aircraft (implying the UAF is still flying), Russian conscripts never being told they were attacking Ukraine, and all manner of other encouraging news.

BUT - as they say, in war the first casualty is the truth. Can't believe something just because you LIKE it and HOPE that it's true.

About the only thing that's probably true is that the Russians are getting more resistance than they expected. Where the needle is on the resistance gauge - I don't know.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 03, 2022, 12:51:32 PM
Someone commented that on the bright side there's going to lots of hot Ukrainian women looking for husbands.
Hey, I didn't make the comment.



But I would be willing to take one in. It's the least I can do to help out.

So you are saying that Ben could have another bite at the Ukrainian apple after HUC?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 01:06:19 PM
Heeeeeere's Putin!
Quote
Russia's operation 'going according to plan' - Putin

Russian President Vladimir Putin has said his "special military operation" - otherwise known as Russia's invasion of Ukraine - is "going according to plan".

His claim comes despite many analysts suggesting the invasion has not gone to plan.

In a televised speech, he accused Ukrainian forces of taking "thousands of foreign citizens hostage" and using civilians as "human shields" - he provided no evidence for these claims.

He added that Russians and Ukrainians were "one people" and said he would "destroy this 'anti-Russia' created by the West".
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60582327

"Russians and Ukrainians were one people"
Yeah..... The Ukrainians would like to have a word with you on that.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 01:23:01 PM
Meanwhile he seems to be losing support of some big players

Quote
Second-biggest Russian oil producer calls for end to war


Russia's second-largest oil producer Lukoil is calling for an end to the conflict in Ukraine.

In a statement on its website, the company said it was concerned by the "tragic events in Ukraine" and supported the negotiations to end the conflict.

Its board called for "the immediate cessation of the armed conflict and fully supports its resolution through the negotiation process and through diplomatic means".

The company is thought to be one of the first major Russian firms to speak out against the invasion.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60582327
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 03, 2022, 01:26:56 PM
So you are saying that Ben could have another bite at the Ukrainian apple after HUC?

Ukrainian women are hot-blooded, which sounds hot, but it's also very dangerous.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 01:32:47 PM
HUC?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 03, 2022, 02:27:15 PM
HUC?

Ben often spoke of his Hot Ukrainian Coworker.  Her pictures confirmed this.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on March 03, 2022, 02:28:23 PM
HUC?

Hot Ukrainian Coworker?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on March 03, 2022, 03:19:15 PM
Ben often spoke of his Hot Ukrainian Coworker.  Her pictures confirmed this.

Pictures or it’s not real…… :laugh:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 04:02:25 PM
Ukraine conflict: Drone shows extent of damage in Borodyanka
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60608706
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 04:26:08 PM
This will stop Putin

Quote
Russian cats banned from competitions

An international cat federation has said it's banning all Russian cats from entering its competitions.

In a statement on its website the Fédération Internationale Féline said it was "horrified" by Russia's invasion of Ukraine and had subsequently decided to disallow Russian cats from competing in its competitions, which take place around the world.

As well as this, it said that no cats bred in Russia would be allowed to be registered with its organisation outside of Russia.

The rules will be in place until the end of May, when they will be reviewed.

It added that it would dedicate a part of its budget to support cat breeders in Ukraine who are suffering because of the current situation.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60582327
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 03, 2022, 05:13:28 PM
https://thefederalist.com/2022/02/28/the-right-loves-putin-and-other-lies-the-media-tell-about-trump-and-russia/

Quote
...like the time Trump called him a “master tactician.” Wait, sorry. That was actually how The New York Times itself described the Russian president in mid-February. And also in October 2020.

But Tamkin could have mentioned the time Tucker Carlson said in a monologue that there was a legitimate argument as to “whether Mr. Putin’s grievances had bases in fact, whether the United States and its allies were too cavalier in expanding NATO, [and] whether Russia was justified in believing that its security was compromised.” My bad. That was also the Times on Feb. 23.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 03, 2022, 05:17:27 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/BE7iThi.png)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 03, 2022, 05:28:59 PM
2015, very prescient

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4&t=1s
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 03, 2022, 06:28:48 PM
I wonder how many people will contribute to this?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-gun-drive-ukraine-russia-war

I know I wouldn't. I doubt there is any legal or logistical way to get the firearms to Ukraine. They'll collect them from various suckers, then "discover" that they can't ship them, then destroy them "for safety" rather than give them back to their rightful owners. I'm more inclined to think this is a back door gun grab.

I like the idea, in theory, of donating a gun, but even if they got there, then the people on the ground are dealing with who knows how many calibers that aren't available in Ukraine. If I knew 100% it would get into the hands of a Ukrainian citizen, I'd happily donate my SKS.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 06:45:29 PM
I have 6 Russian made rifles.
I have zero confident even one of them would make it there.
More than likely they would all be chucked into a dem run crusher.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 03, 2022, 06:48:57 PM
I have 6 Russian made rifles.

Besides the SKS, I have a few Mosins, but donating them would kinda be giving whatever Ukrainians got them the middle finger.  =D
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 07:04:26 PM
Explosions and fighting at one of Europe largest nuclear power plants.

Currently on a live feed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X14cRHLb-bU
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 07:06:07 PM
Quote
Warnings issued over nuclear plant safety
Enerhodar's nuclear cooling towers, pictured before the war
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images
Enerhodar's nuclear cooling towers, pictured before the warImage caption: Enerhodar's nuclear cooling towers, pictured before the war

Wladimir Klitschko, the champion boxer and brother of the Kyiv mayor, has said that Ukraine's nuclear plants are being threatened by the Russian invasion, warning of a potential repeat of the 1986 Chernobyl disaster.

Earlier, we reported fierce shelling in Enerhodar, in south-eastern Ukraine, the home of one of Europe's largest nuclear plants.

The local mayor has already warned that there is no water supply or electricity in the town, due to the onslaught.

Klitschko tweeted today: "Ukraine has 4 nuclear power plants and Russian army is shooting rockets and bombing right next to it. Don’t look away, STOP Russian invasion NOW!!!"

The International Atomic Energy Agency Director General Rafael Grossi in a statement today called on all the military forces operating around Enerhodar to refrain from violence near the plant.

On Wednesday, he said the country’s nuclear power plants "must be able to continue operating without any safety or security threats. Any accident caused as a result of the military conflict could have extremely serious consequences for people and the environment, in Ukraine and beyond".

Russian forces seized control of the shuttered Chernobyl nuclear power plant about a week ago. Ukrainian officials reported radiation levels had been "exceeded" in a number of places in the area at the time, but Russia said that was not the case.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60582327
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 07:21:56 PM
Buildings on fire.
This could be Chernobyl x10 if it gets out of hand.
Time for some vodka
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on March 03, 2022, 07:33:28 PM
Buildings on fire.
This could be Chernobyl x10 if it gets out of hand.
Time for some vodka

One hopes they have better safety systems and a less dangerous design than Chernobyl had.  I could definitely see a TMI level problem.  I’d hope that Chernobyl level problems, let alone worse, wouldn’t be able to happen.  At least not without deliberate action to make it that bad.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 07:41:47 PM
One hopes they have better safety systems and a less dangerous design than Chernobyl had.  I could definitely see a TMI level problem.  I’d hope that Chernobyl level problems, let alone worse, wouldn’t be able to happen.  At least not without deliberate action to make it that bad.

I know but a guy named Murphy has a really bad habit of showing up.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 07:46:55 PM
Quote
Europe's largest nuclear plant is on fire, say local officials
The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant is the largest in Europe
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images

A fire has reportedly broken out at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, the largest in Europe.

It appears to have been caused by "continuous enemy shelling of [the plant's] buildings and units", according to Mayor Dmytro Orlov of nearby Enerhodar.

Orlov had previously reported intense fighting between Ukrainian and Russian forces on the outskirts of his city, which is in the southeast.

Russian troops had tried to enter the city in tanks and seize the plant, but residents and workers were seen congregating around the plant and its surrounding roads on Wednesday.

Ukraine has four active nuclear plants including Zaporizhzhia.

It also deals with nuclear waste at sites like Chernobyl, now under Russian control.

The International Atomic Energy Agency said earlier today that it is consulting with Ukraine "and others with a view to provide maximum possible assistance to the country as it seeks to maintain nuclear safety and security in the current difficult circumstances".
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60582327
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 08:00:51 PM
6 reactors
Produces more than 1/5 of Ukraine's electricity

Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporizhzhia_Nuclear_Power_Plant

Unconfirmed #2 & 3 have been shut down.
Also unconfirmed that at least one reactor building has been struck by artillery
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 08:12:01 PM
One worry is any spent fuel in storage.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 03, 2022, 08:25:08 PM
I notice that given the recent nuke and WW3 talk, that potassium iodide tablets are suddenly scarce right now. The 130mg ones, not the 0.25mg ones available on Amazon as supplements.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 09:30:33 PM
Russian General reportedly killed

Top Russian general is killed by Ukrainian sniper as Kyiv claims 9,000 of Putin’s troops have died during invasion
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10573429/Top-Russian-general-killed-Ukrainian-sniper-Kyiv-claims-9-000-Putins-troops-died.html
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2022, 09:32:21 PM
From the link above

Cleanup in aisle 5

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/03/03/13/54854185-10573429-Huge_convoys_of_Russian_armour_have_rumbled_into_several_Ukraini-a-29_1646313195343.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 03, 2022, 10:30:13 PM
... and now the Russians are fleeing:

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/russia-martial-law-putin-ukraine-invasion/

Quote
Fears are growing Russia could impose martial law on the country after a wave of mass protests against the invasion of Ukraine.

In a society where protest against the Kremlin can result in tragic consequences for demonstrators, such a move would tighten restrictions even further – with speculation they would stretch to food and money.

Reports say thousands of people have fled as rumours about tough new laws grew this week
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 03, 2022, 10:32:18 PM
Russian General reportedly killed

Top Russian general is killed by Ukrainian sniper as Kyiv claims 9,000 of Putin’s troops have died during invasion
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10573429/Top-Russian-general-killed-Ukrainian-sniper-Kyiv-claims-9-000-Putins-troops-died.html

Of course, my first thoughts are: what rifle, what caliber, and what range?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Bogie on March 03, 2022, 10:37:18 PM
Guessing 9mm, from a handgun, at about 6"...
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: kgbsquirrel on March 04, 2022, 12:02:09 AM
Buildings on fire.
This could be Chernobyl x10 if it gets out of hand.
Time for some vodka

Why, they running 10x RBMK's in a reckless manner?

Somehow I doubt we are going to have a reactor steam explosion 10x worse than chernobyl.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 04, 2022, 12:15:51 AM
Why, they running 10x RBMK's in a reckless manner?

Somehow I doubt we are going to have a reactor steam explosion 10x worse than chernobyl.

I'll give bogie a half-pass on this one.

Ukraine's foreign minister stated:
Quote
Russian army is firing from all sides upon Zaporizhzhia NPP, the largest nuclear power plant in Europe. Fire has already broke out. If it blows up, it will be 10 times larger than Chornobyl! Russians must IMMEDIATELY cease the fire, allow firefighters, establish a security zone!

That said, 1) this is an active war, and the foreign minister is using rhetoric to attempt to persuade further action from other nations to help Ukraine, and B) the intended audience (the general public of the west) is dumb enough to conflate reactor meltdowns and steam explosions with nuclear bombs.

What the Russian army is actually trying to do is knock out the electrical infrastructure supplying power to Ukraine in an effort to control the flow of information and demoralize the populace.  How would I go about this if I were so tasked?  I'd take out the step up transformers at the site which up-convert the voltage from the generators to transmission levels.  What do we know about the situation?  "The reactors are safe, but a building 400m from them is on fire"  Hmmm....
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 04, 2022, 08:20:52 AM
Putin's Sardaukar have set explosives around the reactors.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russian-troops-aiming-to-mine-nuclear-plant-to-blackmail-all-of-europe-zaporizhzhia-employees
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 08:21:24 AM
Reasons this was/is giving me the willies

1) Artillery was being reportedly fired and a reactor building reportedly hit. How tough those buildings and the confinement areas are I have no clue.

2) Spend fuel rod are often stored in much less protected areas.

3) What condition are the control systems in?

4) Don't know the condition of the staff and their mindset.

5) How willing either through ignorance or malice are the Russians to start leveling the place if they meet stiff resistance? I would hope they're smarter than that but if past wars are any lesson.....

6) Only takes one nut to say screw it and say if the Russians want Ukraine they can have it as a wasteland. Don't ever underestimate what can go through people's minds when stressed to the max.

7) Putlin doing the above but for the opposite reason.

8) And, this is the big one, because Murphy loves *expletive deleted*ing with us



 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 08:28:17 AM
Putin's Sardaukar have set explosives around the reactors.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russian-troops-aiming-to-mine-nuclear-plant-to-blackmail-all-of-europe-zaporizhzhia-employees

My #7
Hopefully it's BS
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 08:30:40 AM
I can hear it now.
The Ukrainians should have built more windmills
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 08:59:06 AM
Pat Buchanan has a more coherent take on this than anything you are seeing or hearing on TV.

https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/is-a-russia-nato-clash-over-ukraine-ahead/

He sort of echoes the 2015 discussion at the University of Chicago I posted earlier.

Ukraine is of serious strategic value to Russia.
Ukraine has no strategic value to the USA.

All I can figure is the globalists have decided it's time to destroy Russia. That is the only reason I can imagine for promoting EU and NATO membership for a country that is so crucial to Russia strategically. Putin has made it clear for at least a decade that there would be a military response to any attempt to bring Ukraine into NATO. This leads me to believe the globalists wanted war in Ukraine as a pretense to destroy Russia financially.

The countries that border Russia are looked at by Russia much like we hold our Monroe Doctrine. NATO troops in a bordering country will not be tolerated, anymore than we would tolerate Chinese troops stationed in Canada or Russian troops in Mexico.

Putin is not a madman, he is not unstable. He is going to take over all of Ukraine, probably wreck the infrastructure possibly giving some of it back, but only with ironclad guarantees of Ukraine neutrality going forward.



Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: DittoHead on March 04, 2022, 09:14:14 AM
All I can figure is the globalists have decided it's time to destroy Russia. That is the only reason I can imagine for promoting EU and NATO membership for a country that is so crucial to Russia strategically.

It doesn't matter how important Ukraine is to Putin, it's not his country. He made the decision to invade yet you keep trying to spread blame to everyone else for Putin's decision.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 09:26:23 AM
As far as bordering countries joining NATO. A lot of these countries still have strong memories of being unwilling members of the Russian Empire and the later Soviet Union and suffering heavily under their rule and only recently regained their independence. Putin is not helping by giving every indication he longs for the old days of the empire.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 09:29:15 AM
Well, I hope you warmongers enjoy the war that folks just like you created.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 09:32:47 AM
Well, I hope you warmongers enjoy the war that folks just like you created.

I think you miss my point.

Could NATO have dealt with this better? Certainly. But put yourself in the place of many of these smaller countries with Putin looking at you across the border.
All of these countries suffered greatly under Russian/Soviet rule in the recent pass, you expect them to forget that overnight?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 04, 2022, 09:42:21 AM
^^^When my wife and I took a Nordic/Russia/Baltics cruise a couple of years ago, I was struck by all the memorials to Soviet aggression in the Baltics compared to almost none regarding the Nazis. I wondered if that was in part trying to overlook the history of colloboration with the Nazis in some of the countries.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on March 04, 2022, 09:42:49 AM
Quote
Putin is not a madman, he is not unstable.

Wrong.  You haven't looked at his history, what he has done in his twenty-plus years in power.  Consider everything he has done to remain in power.  He is certainly sociopathic, and very probably much worse.  Megalomania comes to mind.
The world has been treating Putin as a rational actor.  He is not.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 09:46:26 AM
I think you miss my point.

Could NATO have dealt with this better? Certainly. But put yourself in the place of many of these smaller countries with Putin looking at you across the border.
All of these countries suffered greatly under Russian/Soviet rule in the recent pass, you expect them to forget that overnight?

NATO was the enemy of Russia/USSR for 45 years. Do you expect Russia to forget that as NATO pursues moving right on to their border?

The western empire wants what the western empire wants.

Russia doesn't stand a chance against the western empire, unless China takes Russia's side.

I'm thinking China will sell Russia down the river. The globalists and China must want Russia weakened.

If we have driven Russia and China closer together with this fiasco that might be worse yet.

 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 09:49:11 AM
I have had serious thoughts that maybe he's dying and he want his legacy to be that of bringing the Empire back together as Czar Putin I
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 09:54:50 AM
Wrong.  You haven't looked at his history, what he has done in his twenty-plus years in power.  Consider everything he has done to remain in power.  He is certainly sociopathic, and very probably much worse.  Megalomania comes to mind.
The world has been treating Putin as a rational actor.  He is not.

He is a psycopath, that doesn't mean he is unstable or crazy.

This wasn't an irrational move on his part. He clearly laid out what would happen if NATO pursued Ukraine. He probably has 1/3 to 1/2 of the Ukrainians on his side. When his guy was "elected" the west supported the coup that put the current regime in power. These are all bad guys.

If I can figure this stuff out then it's obvious the folks actually making moves know more. This looks like a move by the west against Russia. They had to know Russia would not tolerate NATO on their border.

 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 10:02:52 AM
I have had serious thoughts that maybe he's dying and he want his legacy to be that of bringing the Empire back together as Czar Putin I

This is what we are getting from our media, everyone's a mind reader. Putin has actually talked about this a lot, military action was all but promised.

Go back and watch that discussion from 2015 at the University of Chicago I posted. The Russian position has been pretty consistent all along. All attempts at compromise (a neutral Ukraine) were rebuffed by the west. The western empire decided it wanted Ukraine and poured resources into making it happen.

We have goaded on and financed the pro west movement there for over a decade and now basically have abandoned them as Putin wrecks their country.   

When Biden said "go get him" he was telling the empire to destroy Putin.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: DittoHead on March 04, 2022, 10:04:37 AM
As far as bordering countries joining NATO. A lot of these countries still have strong memories of being unwilling members of the Russian Empire and the later Soviet Union and suffering heavily under their rule and only recently regained their independence. Putin is not helping by giving every indication he longs for the old days of the empire.
Exactly correct.
Quote from: https://quillette.com/2022/02/14/putins-mission-to-restore-the-imperial-glory-of-mother-russia/
The real “threat” Russia faces today, in other words, is the threat of decisively losing its empire. NATO enlargement, and Western policy more generally, has taken the sovereignty of countries in Eastern Europe as an unabashed goal. Today’s diplomatic haggling over missile placements, troop limits, nuclear postures, and security guarantees have made little progress because there’s no agreement on the fundamental issue. At stake is whether Russia has the right to be surrounded by a belt of countries that it can bully.

Last summer, Putin published a high-profile article titled “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians.” The first sentence of the piece reiterated Putin’s view that Russians and Ukrainians were “a single whole.” The conclusion of the article warns “true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia.” At stake today is whether the Kremlin will impose militarily the regime of partial sovereignty on its neighbors that Russian leaders have pursued since the day of Tsar Peter. Alternatively, the Kremlin could accept its territorial limits and agree to the security guarantees that it says it wants. The country most in need of a credible security guarantee isn’t Russia. It's Ukraine.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 10:05:16 AM
NATO was the enemy of Russia/USSR for 45 years. Do you expect Russia to forget that as NATO pursues moving right on to their border?

The western empire wants what the western empire wants.

Russia doesn't stand a chance against the western empire, unless China takes Russia's side.

I'm thinking China will sell Russia down the river. The globalists and China must want Russia weakened.

If we have driven Russia and China closer together with this fiasco that might be worse yet.

Why was NATO the enemy of the SU? Just to be mean? Do you history much?
Russia doesn't stand a chance against the "western empire" yes, but what chance do the small countries bordering Russia have against Russia. A Russia under a ruthless leader that has given every indication he wants to bring back the days of the Empire and/or Soviet Union? What did you expect them to do?
You may be willing and able to forget history they're not.

As far China an Russian they're just using each other for sex so to speak and will turn on each other in a heart beat and they both know it.

Don't get me wrong, NATO is not 100% blameless in this, I can understand Russia's feeling in this, to a point. But I seriously don't think we would be at this point if it wasn't for Putin.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 10:07:06 AM
Enjoy your war.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: DittoHead on March 04, 2022, 10:07:32 AM
Enjoy your war.
Putin's war.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 10:12:44 AM
Enjoy your war.

Enjoy sitting warm and comfortable in you home without a rather large and hungry bear scratching at your cabin door.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 10:13:03 AM
Putin's war.
Another neocon war.

Just because Putin is a bad guy that doesn't justify what has preceded the fireworks.

This war was all but orchestrated by the west.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 04, 2022, 10:13:36 AM
Ukraine is of serious strategic value to Russia.
Ukraine has no strategic value to the USA.

True, but the outrage is far from being only in the US.  If anything, European countries seem to be taking point on this.  They are rather pissed that a democracy is under attack, and acting accordingly.  For example: NATO couldn't get Germany to meet it's military commitments for decades, Putin got them there in 72 hours.  Even formerly neutral countries like Sweden and Finland are sending weapons.

All I can figure is the globalists have decided it's time to destroy Russia. That is the only reason I can imagine for promoting EU and NATO membership for a country that is so crucial to Russia strategically. Putin has made it clear for at least a decade that there would be a military response to any attempt to bring Ukraine into NATO. This leads me to believe the globalists wanted war in Ukraine as a pretense to destroy Russia financially.

I don't believe that there is some shadowy consortium of global governance that controls the world.  It's reading order and coherence into a place where there is none.  I think that all of these governments are independent, voluntarily form alliances and treaties, and act in their own self interest.

The countries that border Russia are looked at by Russia much like we hold our Monroe Doctrine. NATO troops in a bordering country will not be tolerated, anymore than we would tolerate Chinese troops stationed in Canada or Russian troops in Mexico.

Agreed, they aren't happy about bordering countries joining an enemy military alliance, or their people and culture moving further towards western democratization.  I'm sure both powers were and are attempting to sway those people towards their point of view.  Maybe this is americentrism, but I think these people - who know what the russian system looks like from the soviet days - are moving further westward of their own volition.  The system offers more opportunities, wealth and freedoms.   There's a reason the DDR had to build a wall to keep people in.

Putin is not a madman, he is not unstable. He is going to take over all of Ukraine, probably wreck the infrastructure possibly giving some of it back, but only with ironclad guarantees of Ukraine neutrality going forward.

Well, he certainly seems to have miscalculated, unless his plan was to get embarrassed on the world stage, unite Europe, strengthen NATO, push neutral countries towards it, crater his own economy, restart an arms race, restart the cold war, and create anti-Russian sentiment globally.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 04, 2022, 10:23:25 AM
^^^When my wife and I took a Nordic/Russia/Baltics cruise a couple of years ago, I was struck by all the memorials to Soviet aggression in the Baltics compared to almost none regarding the Nazis. I wondered if that was in part trying to overlook the history of colloboration with the Nazis in some of the countries.

... or the fact that Nazi Germany controlled the Baltic states for just a few years while the Soviets controlled them for decades.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 10:25:20 AM
I have had serious thoughts that maybe he's dying and he want his legacy to be that of bringing the Empire back together as Czar Putin I

This is what we are getting from our media, everyone's a mind reader. Putin has actually talked about this a lot, military action was all but promised.

Go back and watch that discussion from 2015 at the University of Chicago I posted. The Russian position has been pretty consistent all along. All attempts at compromise (a neutral Ukraine) were rebuffed by the west. The western empire decided it wanted Ukraine and poured resources into making it happen.

We have goaded on and financed the pro west movement there for over a decade and now basically have abandoned them as Putin wrecks their country.   

When Biden said "go get him" he was telling the empire to destroy Putin.

Just speculation on my part.
When you're dealing with someone who from our, my, point of view who just did something insane maybe an there's an insane reason. Despots have done crazier things in the past. Again just speculation.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 10:32:44 AM
What is it with him and sitting all alone at the end of long tables?
COVID fears?


(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2022/3/4/c2c1835e-30f2-4b99-82d9-b5be34909b5f.jpg)

(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/T3cSRnRp6IOhtMPOcEdmFQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTY0MA--/https://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2022-02/417de5d0-98c2-11ec-bf3f-aa47d35384f3)

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/02/14/14/54180943-10511269-Sergei_Shoigu_the_Russian_defence_minister_was_also_long_tabled_-m-18_1644850637406.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 10:34:58 AM
Just speculation on my part.
When you're dealing with someone who from our, my, point of view just did something insane maybe an there's an insane reason. Despots have done crazier things in the past. Again just speculation.

If you watched the UoC video from 2015 you would see there is very little that is insane about his actions. The west knew exactly what he was going to do. Hopefully we have planned this out better than Russia and Putin.

NATO being on Russia's border was seen as an existential threat by Russia. No amount of justifications on our side changes the reality on the ground. NATO on the border was the same as NATO declaring "war" on Russia as far as Putin is concerned. They don't view us as benevolent bringers of peace and safety but as a global empire that want to eventually move into Russia.

Someone is weak on history and foreign policy and it's not me.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 10:42:51 AM

Someone is weak on history and foreign policy and it's not me.

You're failing to connect how the first is influencing the second.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 10:49:32 AM
You're failing to connect how the first influences the second.
Your failing to understand the adversaries motivations, you think he is crazy or insane.

I guarantee you that both Russia and the west have been wargaming these events for many years. There is very little going on that is "surprising" to the folks on both sides calling the shots.

The west thinks they can win this economically. Russia's only play to stop NATO from moving into Ukraine was militarily. Both sides have been preparing for these events for a while now.

Better hope we have smarter guys than Putin and Xi.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 10:53:14 AM
Your failing to understand the adversaries motivations, you think he is crazy or insane.

I guarantee you that both Russia and the west have been wargaming these events for many years. There is very little going on that is "surprising" to the folks on both sides calling the shots.

The west thinks they can win this economically. Russia's only play to stop NATO from moving into Ukraine was militarily. Both sides have been preparing for these events for a while now.

Better hope we have smarter guys than Putin and Xi.

Actually I've viewed Putin more as a pragmatist. But even the smartest man may made a stupid mistake that may appear to many insane.
Doesn't mean I can't do a little "insane" speculation.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 10:57:06 AM
As I've told people
Putin is gonna do what Putin is gonna to do
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 10:59:54 AM
An awful lot of WTF? moments in history and I think we're in one of them.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 11:21:19 AM
We still have the move of refusing to buy oil from Russia. It's interesting that we still are giving them billions of dollars for oil while trying to wage economic war on them.

There are still some weird holes in my ideas like the above, but I think what I believe explains what's going on better than the official story.

Nearly half of Ukraine did not want to join the EU or NATO, at least that was true in around 2015. Putin might just keep everything east of the Dnieper River and give the rest back if there are assurances they will not join NATO. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 04, 2022, 11:22:32 AM
NATO being on Russia's border was seen as an existential threat by Russia. No amount of justifications on our side changes the reality on the ground. NATO on the border was the same as NATO declaring "war" on Russia as far as Putin is concerned. They don't view us as benevolent bringers of peace and safety but as a global empire that want to eventually move into Russia.
Estonia and Latvia.  And Norway, sort of.  Lithuania and Poland if you consider Belarus to be an extension of Russia.

I don't think Putin honestly believes NATO on his border is a threat.  From what I've seen, I think that was merely his weak justification for a much more pragmatic economic conflict relating to the likelihood of Ukraine supplanting Russia's position as a primary provider of natural gas and oil to Europe, thereby savaging Russia's GDP and more importantly government income via state-controlled energy firms, so say nothing of threatening the wealth of Putin's powerful buddies.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 04, 2022, 11:24:43 AM
... or the fact that Nazi Germany controlled the Baltic states for just a few years while the Soviets controlled them for decades.

The Nazis were initially seen in the Baltics as liberating them from the Soviet yoke but things went downhill from there. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 04, 2022, 11:30:31 AM
There's this myth going around that we're not doing a no-fly zone over Ukraine because it could provoke a much larger conflict. The truth is, our military is simply too busy defending our capital from the white supremacist threat.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 11:35:55 AM
Estonia and Latvia.  And Norway, sort of.  Lithuania and Poland if you consider Belarus to be an extension of Russia.

I don't think Putin honestly believes NATO on his border is a threat.  From what I've seen, I think that was merely his weak justification for a much more pragmatic economic conflict relating to the likelihood of Ukraine supplanting Russia's position as a primary provider of natural gas and oil to Europe, thereby savaging Russia's GDP and more importantly government income via state-controlled energy firms, so say nothing of threatening the wealth of Putin's powerful buddies.

Yea, there are a lot of moving pieces there for sure. I'm not sure how you can believe NATO moving forces onto Russians border in such a strategic location would not be considered a threat. Western influence/control of Ukraine's energy having the potential of savaging Russia's GDP isn't considered a Russian security concern?

I'm no fan of Putin or Russia but the more I look into this the more it looks like it is the west who has insisted on pushing the issue.

Regarding the northern countries that joined NATO in 2004 my understanding is Russia was not in very good shape back then and didn't have much recourse.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 11:42:20 AM
Don't get me wrong, I am seeing plenty of blame to go around but see 80-90% of the blame going to Putin.

Was Ukraine's government a bit worrisome in some regards? Yes
Am I trouble by some aspects in how it came to power? Yes
Am I troubled by reported connections between certain members of our government and Ukraine? Yes
Was Ukraine harassing it's Russian speaking population? Yes, which leads to the next question.
Was Russia fermenting much of that? Yes but Ukraine is not totally blameless.
Was Ukraine going to join NATO? Not really sure if it really going to happen but I CAN see Russia's stance on that but, next questions.
Were Russian troops already conducting operations in the disputed areas? Yes, limited but yes
Did Russia already invade and take over part of Ukraine? Yes
Would Ukraine be taking about joining NATO if Russia hadn't invaded The Crimea? Don't know but I suspect perhaps not.
Was Putin saying Ukrainians and Russians are one people while massing troops? Yes. If you're Ukrainian that had to scare you.
Did Ukraine have a historical reason to fear Russian? Yes Yes Yes
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 11:54:51 AM
Things that make you go Hmmm
Could be media exaggerating somewhat don't know yet.

Quote
Surge in arrivals in Finland from Russia

John Simpson

World Affairs Editor, Vaalima in Finland
Border queue
BBCCopyright: BBC

At Finland’s border crossing with Russia at Vaalimaa, 120 miles (193 kilometres) east of Helsinki, buses and cars stop for passport and customs checks.

These aren’t Ukrainians, they’re Russians - and although the flow isn't heavy, it is constant.

People are anxious to get out of Russia because there has been a persistent rumour that Vladimir Putin’s government might soon introduce martial law to deal with demonstrations against the invasion of Ukraine.

We spoke to one young Russian woman who was leaving for the West. She was in despair at what has been happening.

"People in Ukraine are our people – our family," she says. "We shouldn't be killing them."

Would she think of going back, I asked?

"Not while our dreadful government is there. It is so, so sad."

There's immense sympathy for people like her in Finland, just as there is for Ukraine and its inhabitants.

This sympathy, and the fear that Russia might lash out at other neighbours like Finland itself, is changing attitudes to Finland’s traditional neutrality.

According to the latest opinion polls, a growing majority of Finns believe that it’s time for their country to join Nato and get the protection that membership of the alliance would bring.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60532634
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 04, 2022, 12:12:49 PM
Yea, there are a lot of moving pieces there for sure. I'm not sure how you can believe NATO moving forces onto Russians border in such a strategic location would not be considered a threat.
The threat is not having a NATO member on their border, which as I pointed out they already enjoy.  Granted, not as strategically placed as Ukraine might be, but it's not nothing. 

The threat Putin is responding to here is to their government's economic well-being which relies massively on their government control of the energy sector and the fact that Europe is hungry for that energy.  They cannot abide a potential competitor for Europe's energy money.  This is using military force to protect market share, not trying to keep NATO from marching on Moscow.
Western influence/control of Ukraine's energy having the potential of savaging Russia's GDP isn't considered a Russian security concern?
You're missing the point.  That doesn't require Ukrainian NATO membership at all.  For that matter, it doesn't even require Western influence.  Simply a Ukrainian government that cares about Ukrainian interests ahead of Russian. 

Ukraine had placed significant tariffs on Russian gas pumped through their pipelines, so Russia decided to build around them. 

Significant natural gas fields offshore of Crimea were seized by Russia when they annexed Crimea thereby cutting Ukraine off from most of their offshore reserves in the Black Sea. 

Ukraine begins to develop their shale oil fields - most of which are found in eastern Ukraine where - surprise, surprise, Russia decides to set up a couple of breakaway puppet states and then invade.

The problem is not the West pushing NATO on Ukraine, it is Putin being frustrated that a non-puppet Ukraine could cut the state-owned energy companies off at the knees.  It was a non-puppet Ukraine that legitimately feared Russian aggression that sought protection from NATO and now the EU.
I'm no fan of Putin or Russia but the more I look into this the more it looks like it is the west who has insisted on pushing the issue.
I'm not blind as to the US having terrible, inconsistent, and often counter-productive foreign policy.  However, I don't think this conflict had beans to do with NATO or the west.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 04, 2022, 12:31:47 PM
The Nazis were initially seen in the Baltics as liberating them from the Soviet yoke but things went downhill from there. 

I know.

My point was that being under the Soviet yoke for several decades produces more resentment than a few years under the Germans.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 04, 2022, 01:22:38 PM
Time for a little levity:

https://babylonbee.com/news/4d-chess-us-mexico-border-disguised-as-ukrainian-border-so-democrats-will-defend-it

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 04, 2022, 01:25:44 PM
Time for a little levity:

https://babylonbee.com/news/4d-chess-us-mexico-border-disguised-as-ukrainian-border-so-democrats-will-defend-it

On a serious note, I wonder how many more illegals and terrorists are swarming the Southern border unchecked now that the MSM and politicians have another focus?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 04, 2022, 01:29:08 PM
From translated Dutch media:
Quote
Nato and the EU are meeting on Friday. The Netherlands will be represented by minister Wobke Hoekstra

Exceptionally US minister Blinken will join and Ukrainian minister of foreign affairs Dmytro Kubelo joins through a video conference

They will discuss what more actions can be taken against Russia. Military intervention by the Nato is no longer out of the question
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on March 04, 2022, 01:37:09 PM
From translated Dutch media:

Ugh.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 04, 2022, 01:40:27 PM
Interesting, since NATO has officially rejected a no-fly zone over Ukraine:

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/nato-meets-ukraine-calls-no-fly-zone-hinder-russia-2022-03-04/

Are they contemplating some other form of intervention?  Seems to me that the no-fly zone would have been the easiest to implement.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 04, 2022, 01:44:42 PM
Well if NATO gets involved, this will kind of be turning into a "blood for oil" thing. I saw the German Ambassador to the US interviewed this morning, and pressed hard, she admitted that Germany will not be pulling out of any energy agreements with Russia, no matter what other sanctions they enforce. I suspect most of the EU will be doing similar. And of course we are too.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 04, 2022, 01:51:31 PM
Interesting, since NATO has officially rejected a no-fly zone over Ukraine:

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/nato-meets-ukraine-calls-no-fly-zone-hinder-russia-2022-03-04/

Are they contemplating some other form of intervention?  Seems to me that the no-fly zone would have been the easiest to implement.

Don't know, might just be saber rattling.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 01:52:44 PM
Well if NATO gets involved, this will kind of be turning into a "blood for oil" thing. I saw the German Ambassador to the US interviewed this morning, and pressed hard, she admitted that Germany will not be pulling out of any energy agreements with Russia, no matter what other sanctions they enforce. I suspect most of the EU will be doing similar. And of course we are too.

And the higher oil goes up the more money Russia makes
Biden and dems: Windmills

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/67288587.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 04, 2022, 02:05:41 PM
might just be saber rattling.

(Angel Eyes crosses his fingers)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on March 04, 2022, 02:12:07 PM
Before the Russians invaded, Ukraine was not going to join NATO in the near term.  It was also unlikely they would have been able to join anytime in the next 6-8 years as they do not meet all of the requirements for membership.
They have some serious debt, finance and governmental corruption issues to overcome before they would become eligible to join NATO.
All this talk about Ukraine joining NATO and enabling NATO to be a bigger threat to Russia is nonsense.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 04, 2022, 02:17:51 PM
All this talk about Ukraine joining NATO and enabling NATO to be a bigger threat to Russia is nonsense.
Agreed.  Which is not to say that we didn't interfere with Ukraine.  Obama's state department and good ol' Joe Biden himself did mess with them and helped force out the previous leader.  (Hmm ... I wonder how Hunter got that position?).

Both Russia and the US have meddled in Ukraine.  In both cases probably to the detriment of Ukraine.  That said, finding justification for Putin's actions in that is preposterous.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 02:24:12 PM
How much talk was there of Ukraine joining NATO before Putin invaded and annexed The Crimea?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 04:56:57 PM
Wait for it

Germany Rearms 2022: Assessment & Historical Context
https://youtu.be/mDUElJY4xNQ?t=823

Brutal but :rofl:

BTW: The whole video is worth a watch
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 05:44:40 PM
Quote
    Kick Russia out of NATO https://t.co/fSSxL87Kmw

    — Patricia Arquette (@PattyArquette) March 4, 2022
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/03/04/we-have-a-winner-actress-patricia-arquette-scores-the-dumbest-tweet-of-the-week-screenshot/

(https://c.tenor.com/y13XEZAGKf8AAAAM/putin-vladimir-putin.gif)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 04, 2022, 06:52:42 PM
Seems like a vast majority of Americans across the political spectrum don't have an inkling of the potential escalating consequences of a no fly zone.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/03/04/new-poll-finds-74-of-americans-want-a-nato-led-no-fly-zone-over-ukraine/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 04, 2022, 06:54:13 PM
Seems like a vast majority of Americans across the political spectrum don't have an inkling of the potential escalating consequences of a no fly zone.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/03/04/new-poll-finds-74-of-americans-want-a-nato-led-no-fly-zone-over-ukraine/

FTFY  =D
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on March 04, 2022, 07:07:32 PM
Seriously, until today you lot have done a very good job of posting key events of the day, which meant I didn't have to go look *expletive deleted*it up myself...

But today ya'll have dropped the ball.

Also, Ron, the "globilist" overlords do not want war with the asshat they pay for energy. Which is how they got caught with their pants down.

*shrug* This ends four ways:

1. Ukraine makes like Finland did and beats Russian ass.
2. Russia claims the smoking rubble that was once Ukraine.
3. WWIII
4. There is a change of management in the Kremlin.

I'm hoping for 1 or 4.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 07:13:28 PM
How much talk was there of Ukraine joining NATO before Putin invaded and annexed The Crimea?
It was NATO's official position to bring Ukraine into NATO.

Bucharest Summit Declaration
Issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Bucharest on 3 April 2008

Quote
NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO.  We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.  Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations.  We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May.  MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership.  Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP.  Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications.  We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting.  Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 07:18:53 PM
It was NATO's official position to bring Ukraine into NATO.

Bucharest Summit Declaration
Issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Bucharest on 3 April 2008

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

Okay. I don't recall Putin using that as the excuse why he invaded Ukraine in 2014 and annexed a chunk of it. He may have I just don't recall.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 07:20:34 PM
Russian has banned facebook, twitter, and youtube.
Is APS next?  :O
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 07:25:19 PM
Okay. I don't recall Putin using that as the excuse why he invaded Ukraine in 2014 and annexed a chunk of it. He may have I just don't recall.

The coup that removed his democratically elected ally from office was the impetus for the Crimea invasion.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 07:27:29 PM
The coup that removed his democratically elected ally from office was the impetus for the Crimea invasion.

So take and annex the Crimea  :O
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 07:31:49 PM
So taking the Crimea would fix that?  :O

Sevastopol
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 07:42:11 PM
Sevastopol

Yes he wanted Sevastopol but they annexed all of Crimea. You're trying to split hairs.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 07:42:39 PM


Also, Ron, the "globilist" overlords do not want war with the asshat they pay for energy. Which is how they got caught with their pants down.


If they actually were surprised then things are even worse than any of us thought!
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 07:46:18 PM
Quote
Italian police seize oligarchs' yachts
Alexey Mordashov
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images
Alexey Mordashov is Russia's richest manImage caption: Alexey Mordashov is Russia's richest man

Italian police have seized yachts belonging to two of Russia's wealthiest oligarchs in a raid on Friday, as EU sanctions begin to bite.

Officers seized a 213ft (65 metre) yacht worth $27m (£20m) owned by Alexey Mordashov, a close ally of President Vladimir Putin and Russia's richest man, in the northern port of Imperia, officials told local media.

Another yacht, owned by Gennady Timchenko, another oligarch with close ties to Putin, has been impounded in the coastal city of Imperia, officials said.

Mordashov is worth an estimated $29bn (£22bn) and built his wealth around the Russian steel producer Severstal, while Timchenko is estimated to hold around $17bn (£13.5bn) of assets and made his fortune in oil trading.

The men were among the 680 individuals and 53 entities slapped with sanctions by the EU on Monday.

There were similar seizures in France and Germany this week of yachts belonging to other Russian oligarchs.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60532634
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 07:50:27 PM
Seriously, until today you lot have done a very good job of posting key events of the day, which meant I didn't have to go look *expletive deleted*it up myself...

But today ya'll have dropped the ball.

Also, Ron, the "globilist" overlords do not want war with the asshat they pay for energy. Which is how they got caught with their pants down.

*shrug* This ends four ways:

1. Ukraine makes like Finland did and beats Russian ass.
2. Russia claims the smoking rubble that was once Ukraine.
3. WWIII
4. There is a change of management in the Kremlin.

I'm hoping for 1 or 4.

While #1 would put a smile on my face I don't see it happening unless #4 occurs first. More likely at this point it will be #2. I think the Russians are going to keep grinding down the Ukrainian army until it's gone. Then the long bloody insurgency begins.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on March 04, 2022, 07:58:01 PM
Seriously, until today you lot have done a very good job of posting key events of the day, which meant I didn't have to go look *expletive deleted*it up myself...

But today ya'll have dropped the ball.

Also, Ron, the "globilist" overlords do not want war with the asshat they pay for energy. Which is how they got caught with their pants down.

*shrug* This ends four ways:

1. Ukraine makes like Finland did and beats Russian ass.
2. Russia claims the smoking rubble that was once Ukraine.
3. WWIII
4. There is a change of management in the Kremlin.

I'm hoping for 1 or 4.

While I’m not fully with Ron, it does seem like the “west” is hurtling towards #3.  I don’t get the logic, but then I’m not a leftist elitist.

Ultimately I don’t think there’s any major players that are good guys here.  Including the USA.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 08:41:09 PM
Quote
    Hate to say it, but we need to increase oil & gas output immediately.

    Extraordinary times demand extraordinary measures.

    — Elon Musk (@elonmusk) March 5, 2022
Quote
    Obviously, this would negatively affect Tesla, but sustainable energy solutions simply cannot react instantaneously to make up for Russian oil & gas exports.

    — Elon Musk (@elonmusk) March 5, 2022
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 08:45:20 PM
It's hard to know what our military or intelligence agencies believe. Our media has gone into full blown propaganda mode and is pretty worthless for getting information as to what is really happening or why for that matter.

This article is a reasonably balanced look at things IMHO.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10569141/Putin-NOT-crazy-Russian-invasion-NOT-failing-writes-military-analyst-BILL-ROGGIO.html
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 09:17:33 PM
The threat is not having a NATO member on their border, which as I pointed out they already enjoy.  Granted, not as strategically placed as Ukraine might be, but it's not nothing. 

The threat Putin is responding to here is to their government's economic well-being which relies massively on their government control of the energy sector and the fact that Europe is hungry for that energy.  They cannot abide a potential competitor for Europe's energy money.  This is using military force to protect market share, not trying to keep NATO from marching on Moscow.You're missing the point.  That doesn't require Ukrainian NATO membership at all.  For that matter, it doesn't even require Western influence.  Simply a Ukrainian government that cares about Ukrainian interests ahead of Russian. 

Ukraine had placed significant tariffs on Russian gas pumped through their pipelines, so Russia decided to build around them. 

Significant natural gas fields offshore of Crimea were seized by Russia when they annexed Crimea thereby cutting Ukraine off from most of their offshore reserves in the Black Sea. 

Ukraine begins to develop their shale oil fields - most of which are found in eastern Ukraine where - surprise, surprise, Russia decides to set up a couple of breakaway puppet states and then invade.

The problem is not the West pushing NATO on Ukraine, it is Putin being frustrated that a non-puppet Ukraine could cut the state-owned energy companies off at the knees.  It was a non-puppet Ukraine that legitimately feared Russian aggression that sought protection from NATO and now the EU.I'm not blind as to the US having terrible, inconsistent, and often counter-productive foreign policy.  However, I don't think this conflict had beans to do with NATO or the west.

Might want to let Germany know that NATO membership isn't really the issue. The Germans saying it is off the table doesn't carry the weight of a NATO resolution or whatever they are called.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/ukraines-nato-membership-will-not-take-place-german-chancellor_4317515.html
Quote
Ukraine’s pursuit of NATO membership appeared to be one of the core disputes that caused the ongoing Russia-Ukraine war.

In February 2019, then-Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko signed a constitutional amendment committing the country to becoming a member of NATO and the European Union after the parliament passed the bill.

Poroshenko told the leadership of the Armed Forces of Ukraine days after he signed the amendment that joining NATO was a guarantee of security for Ukraine.

On the Russian side, Putin says Russia needs to lay down “red lines” to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO saying that Ukraine’s growing ties with the alliance could make it a launchpad for NATO missiles targeted at Russia.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 04, 2022, 09:19:35 PM
Okay. I don't recall Putin using that as the excuse why he invaded Ukraine in 2014 and annexed a chunk of it. He may have I just don't recall.

Putin's excuse in 2014 was that he was "protecting" Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine from unspeakable harm.

Which was bovine excrement. I remember reading articles by people living there who said there was no enmity between/among the Ukrainian speakers and the Russian speakers. One article I remember in particular was by a woman who said she spoke Ukrainian and her neighbor spoke Russian, and the two languages were similar enough that they just conversed normally.

Putin and the Kremlin created the pro-Russian separatist movements in the Crimea and in the Donbass region, and then used "protecting" the separatists as a pretext for the invasion.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 04, 2022, 09:30:38 PM
War is nearly always about land and resources.

Ukraine is too strategically placed for Russia to roll over and let it be absorbed into the western empire. I don't deny that energy and it being a breadbasket is important but the EU/NATO thing is huge to them. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 04, 2022, 09:38:15 PM
While I’m not fully with Ron, it does seem like the “west” is hurtling towards #3.  I don’t get the logic, but then I’m not a leftist elitist.

The secret global government has determined that there is no recourse for the impending climate catastrophe unfolding.  People will not, and can not, give up carbon emitting fuels.  The top scientists warn that it's already too late - even if we follow a drastic reduction schedule, the lowered particulates in the atmosphere will cause a runaway ecosystem warming failure.

The only way forward is to cut carbon emissions to the bone, and simultaneously maintain or increase atmosphere particulate matter to reflect light.  Only then will there be a chance for the system to correct - for natural sequestration to occur and runaway avoided.  The only way forward is a global nuclear war.  Decimation of the population, with enough ground bursts to put dust in the upper atmosphere for decades.  Enough people will survive to rebuild, and the hottest isotopes will burn off in the first few years. 

 [tinfoil] :P
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on March 04, 2022, 09:59:05 PM
I seem to be getting raw videos more on FB than I do the news.  Twitter and FUNKER530 also have some good videos of the carnage on the ground. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 11:11:14 PM
Quote
The Kyiv Independent@KyivIndependent⚡️Ukrainian Navy sinks its flagship so that Russians don't get it.

Frigate Hetman Sahaidachny was under repairs in Mykolaiv. The commander was ordered to sink it, according to Defense Minister Oleksiy Reznikov.

Photo: News sites, social media, original source unknown.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1499672237829414915

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FM_n8mYWUAEXlc9?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 11:18:20 PM
Crazy video

Sky News team's harrowing account of their violent ambush in Ukraine this week
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-teams-harrowing-account-of-their-violent-ambush-in-ukraine-this-week-12557585
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 11:30:54 PM
Quote
he Kyiv Independent
@KyivIndependent
·
40m
CNN: Russia is poised to deploy up to 1,000 more mercenaries to Ukraine.

The U.S. has already seen “some indications” that Russian mercenaries may be involved in Moscow’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine “in some places,” a senior defense official said earlier this week.
https://twitter.com/kyivindependent?lang=en
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Bogie on March 04, 2022, 11:33:29 PM
Might want to let Germany know that NATO membership isn't really the issue.

Shame there wasn't someone active who could negotiate a deal between the Russian oil/gas folks and the Ukrainian pipelines/ports...
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: BlueStarLizzard on March 04, 2022, 11:37:45 PM
I seem to be getting raw videos more on FB than I do the news.  Twitter and FUNKER530 also have some good videos of the carnage on the ground.

Tiktok was a good source, but today nothings coming up in my for you feed.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Bogie on March 04, 2022, 11:43:01 PM
Tiktok shows  you what Tiktok wants  you to see.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 04, 2022, 11:43:18 PM
Might want to let Germany know that NATO membership isn't really the issue. The Germans saying it is off the table doesn't carry the weight of a NATO resolution or whatever they are called.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/ukraines-nato-membership-will-not-take-place-german-chancellor_4317515.html

Ukraine’s pursuit of NATO membership appeared to be one of the core disputes that caused the ongoing Russia-Ukraine war.

In February 2019, then-Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko signed a constitutional amendment committing the country to becoming a member of NATO and the European Union after the parliament passed the bill.

Poroshenko told the leadership of the Armed Forces of Ukraine days after he signed the amendment that joining NATO was a guarantee of security for Ukraine.

On the Russian side, Putin says Russia needs to lay down “red lines” to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO saying that Ukraine’s growing ties with the alliance could make it a launchpad for NATO missiles targeted at Russia.

I'm hitting a paywall

But from your posted quote I can't tell if "Ukraine’s pursuit of NATO membership appeared to be one of the core disputes that caused the ongoing Russia-Ukraine war." is the stated opinion of the writer or the German government or rather I should say someone in the government
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 04, 2022, 11:53:25 PM
Crazy video

Sky News team's harrowing account of their violent ambush in Ukraine this week
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-teams-harrowing-account-of-their-violent-ambush-in-ukraine-this-week-12557585

"Reporter in war zone is surprised he's being shot at.  Film at 11."

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 05, 2022, 12:02:15 AM
Grain of salt mode on
Reported on a live feed Russian solders running out of food and raiding people's homes for food.
Grain of salt mode off
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 05, 2022, 05:58:32 AM
War is nearly always about land and resources.

Ukraine is too strategically placed for Russia to roll over and let it be absorbed into the western empire. I don't deny that energy and it being a breadbasket is important but the EU/NATO thing is huge to them.
Russia’s government revenue is something like 43%+ from oil and natural gas.
GDP is close to 50% energy.

Ukraine’s tariffs and development of Black Sea natural gas (oddly now 80% controlled by Russia after they annexed Crimea) and shale fields (most of which are found in the Donbas region which - coincidentally Russia decided needed to be protected from Ukraine) threaten a not insignificant chunk of that revenue.

Given that, assuming Putin couldn’t control Ukraine’s energy policy through soft power, and if NATO/EU had been off the table: Does he still invade?

I think yes - probably faster. Western interest in Ukraine makes invading more dangerous and expensive, not less.

Of course, the flip side is absent western interest it is likely he could have controlled Ukraine with soft power.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 05, 2022, 08:50:41 AM
Blog post discussing our CIA directors analysis of the Ukraine and Russia crises.

https://peterbeinart.substack.com/p/bidens-cia-director-doesnt-believe?utm_source=url&s=r
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 05, 2022, 08:53:48 AM
Something of a tangent, but while Trump is still banned from social media, Putin has an active Twitter account.

To be clear, I don't believe Putin should be banned. I'm in the Elon Musk camp on this.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 05, 2022, 09:08:07 AM
Meanwhile in free speech China

Quote
China state media censors Paralympics official's plea for peace
Andrew Parsons, President of IPC makes a speech during the Opening Ceremony of the Beijing 2022 Winter Paralympics at the Beijing National Stadium on March 04, 2022 in Beijing, China.
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images
International Paralympic Committee Chairman Andrew Parsons delivering a speech during the opening ceremony of the 2022 Beijing Winter ParalympicsImage caption: International Paralympic Committee Chairman Andrew Parsons delivering a speech during the opening ceremony of the 2022 Beijing Winter Paralympics

Chinese national broadcaster CCTV censored a top Paralympics official's comments at the opening ceremony of the Winter Games currently taking place in Beijing.

Andrew Parsons - the Chairman of the International Paralympic Committee (IPC) made an impassioned call for peace in his speech.

“Tonight, I want to begin with a message of peace," he said in English, addressing an audience that included President Xi Jinping.

But in the telecast by CCTV, his voice appeared to be muffled, and a sign language interpreter stopped translating his words onscreen.

The following segments of his speech were also censored:

"As the leader of an organisation with inclusion at its core, where diversity is celebrated and differences embraced, I am horrified at what is taking place in the world right now.

"The 21st Century is a time for dialogue and diplomacy, not war and hate. The Olympic truce for peace during the Olympic and Paralympic Games is a UN Resolution adopted by consensus by 193 Member States at the 76th UN General Assembly.

"It must be respected and observed not violated.”

Last week, the IPC banned Russian and Belarusian athletes from participating in the Paralympics in a rare move.

China has so far refused to call the situation in Ukraine an invasion and also abstained from voting against Russia at the UN so far.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60532634/page/3
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 05, 2022, 09:24:02 AM
Don't get me wrong folks, I'm no fan of KGB Putin.

I'm a 50/50 ethnic mix of German/Polish and grew up during the cold war. I don't think Russia is the good guys.

It would just be nice if the west and the USA acted in such a manner where it was easier to say we are the good guys. Unfortunately our government and media went into 24 hour a day gaslighting mode.

My *expletive deleted*it detector has nearly melted down the propaganda is so thick and heavy.

 

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 05, 2022, 09:37:18 AM
My *expletive deleted*it detector has nearly melted down the propaganda is so thick and heavy.

This is why it's enlightening to read the stories from foreign sources - even the English translations as long as the translations are done by the source. Just from reading the German news, I get some completely different perspectives. I notice that the English translations are not quite the same story, but close enough.

Not that foreign sources are immune to propaganda, but the different perspectives can be eye-opening if you're otherwise just getting the "two sides" of CNN, Fox, etc.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 05, 2022, 10:55:28 AM
Well so much for the crease fire to get civilians out
And of course each side is blaming the other.

Quote
Only 400 evacuated from Volnovakha during short-lived ceasefire
Volnovakha
Only 400 people were evacuated from Volnovakha and nearby settlements during today's short-lived ceasefire, according to Ukrainian officials.

The initial plan was to evacuate more than 15,000 civilians from the region during the temporary ceasefire, which began at 07:00 GMT.

But regional governor Pavlo Kyrylenko said: "Although we had the intention and necessary transport to evacuate a lot more people, we had to stop the movement of the column, because the Russians once again started shelling Volnovakha mercilessly, and it was very dangerous to move there."

Another evacuation, due to take place from the larger city of Mariupol, was also halted
.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 05, 2022, 11:38:19 AM
Oh My

Quote
    Americans: We can endure higher prices for food and gas if it means putting the screws to Putin. Consider it a patriotic donation in the fight for freedom over tyranny.

    — George Takei (@GeorgeTakei) March 4, 2022

We probably wouldn't be having to endure higher prices if anyone in the  Biden admin had half a clue. But that's okay, I'm sure a Hollywood elite like you will do just fine.

George Takei says Americans should consider paying higher gas and food prices to be a ‘patriotic donation in the fight for freedom’ (and people have thoughts)
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/03/05/george-takei-says-americans-should-consider-paying-higher-gas-and-food-prices-to-be-a-patriotic-donation-in-the-fight-for-freedom-and-people-have-thoughts/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 05, 2022, 11:56:39 AM
Amazing, I have been making patriotic donations the past couple years and I didn’t even know that Putin was going to launch an invasion.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 05, 2022, 12:32:54 PM
This is why it's enlightening to read the stories from foreign sources - even the English translations as long as the translations are done by the source. Just from reading the German news, I get some completely different perspectives. I notice that the English translations are not quite the same story, but close enough.

Not that foreign sources are immune to propaganda, but the different perspectives can be eye-opening if you're otherwise just getting the "two sides" of CNN, Fox, etc.

If you want to see BS propaganda and people trying to start crazy rumors in every flavor start reading some of the chats attached to many YT live feeds.  [barf]
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 05, 2022, 12:46:31 PM
Putin's excuse in 2014 was that he was "protecting" Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine from unspeakable harm.

Which was bovine excrement. I remember reading articles by people living there who said there was no enmity between/among the Ukrainian speakers and the Russian speakers. One article I remember in particular was by a woman who said she spoke Ukrainian and her neighbor spoke Russian, and the two languages were similar enough that they just conversed normally.

Putin and the Kremlin created the pro-Russian separatist movements in the Crimea and in the Donbass region, and then used "protecting" the separatists as a pretext for the invasion.

And he is using the same BS justification again: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-western-sanctions-are-akin-declaration-war-2022-03-05/

Quote
Putin reiterated that his aims were to defend Russian- speaking communities through the "demilitarisation and de-Nazification" of the country so that Russia's former Soviet neighbour became neutral and no longer threatened Russia.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 05, 2022, 01:09:33 PM


Quote
13:01
What's the latest?

If you are just joining us, here are the main developments so far today:

    A ceasefire agreed between Russia and Ukraine - to allow civilians to leave the Ukrainian cities of Mariupol and Volnovakha - has fallen apart, just hours after it was announced

    Vladimir Putin has warned the West that any country imposing a no-fly zone over Ukraine will be considered to have joined the war
    The UN refugee agency (UNHCR) has warned that the number of Ukrainian refugees could soon exceed 1.5m people
    Zara is closing all 500 of its stores in Russia, while Samsung and PayPal are suspending activities in the country
    More than £85m has been raised in the UK in just two days to provide help for Ukraine

    Russia's national airline Aeroflot has cancelled nearly all international flights from 8 March, because of "additional circumstances" impeding its operations
    Anti-war protests are taking place across the world including in London, Bangkok, Switzerland and Kherson - the only Ukrainian city occupied by Russia so far
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60532634
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 05, 2022, 01:34:46 PM
B-52s taking part in close air support training over Romania:

https://gazette.com/news/us-b-52-bombers-fly-over-nato-territory-neighboring-ukraine/article_edd45ae8-ab66-51ab-9ff0-69fd327076a4.html

Strictly a training exercise, I'm sure.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 05, 2022, 01:37:37 PM
a training exercise,

Putin two weeks ago
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 05, 2022, 01:38:28 PM
At least one Russian soldier in Ukraine is carrying a scoped Mosin-Nagant:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Russian-troops-are-using-Mosin-Nagants-in-Ukraine/5-2535140/?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 05, 2022, 01:45:24 PM
On a couple feeds they were remarking that nearly all of the destroyed and captured equipment seen so far is old Soviet era stuff and virtually none of the newer post SU stuff. Speculation is Putin is letting the older "expendable" stuff that was headed to the scrap yard anyway take the brunt of the early assaults and soften up the Ukrainians  while holding the newer $$$$$ stuff in reserve to be sent in if needed and to deal with NATO if they happen to show up.
Could explain why so many broken down vehicles are being reported seen in the convoy.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 05, 2022, 02:25:28 PM
At least one Russian soldier in Ukraine is carrying a scoped Mosin-Nagant:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Russian-troops-are-using-Mosin-Nagants-in-Ukraine/5-2535140/?

I wonder if they're giving those to the latest conscripts? I can't remember if it was higher up the page here or somewhere else that I read Putin is only having his professional soldiers do the fighting and that the current conscripts are more in support roles. It would make sense to give them the WW2 rifles if the ruskies are short on the modern stuff.

Related, I saw on the news this morning that one of the big US ammo companies (I forgot who) is sending a million rounds to Ukraine. They didn't talk about calibers. It's being done through proper gov channels, with that one Ukrainian born congresswoman as an intermediary.

Oh - I just looked and here's a story from three days ago, and they just say, "7.62". On Fox News this morning, they indicated this was now much farther along.

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/nascar-richard-childress-donate-1-million-rounds-ammo-ukraine
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on March 05, 2022, 03:53:03 PM
On a couple feeds they were remarking that nearly all of the destroyed and captured equipment seen so far is old Soviet era stuff and virtually none of the newer post SU stuff. Speculation is Putin is letting the older "expendable" stuff that was headed to the scrap yard anyway take the brunt of the early assaults and soften up the Ukrainians  while holding the newer $$$$$ stuff in reserve to be sent in if needed and to deal with NATO if they happen to show up.
Could explain why so many broken down vehicles are being reported seen in the convoy.

Or we constantly make a paper tiger out of the russians. They have no budget. How many Armata tanks do they have? I have seen russian sailors on shore leave in the states, it is clear that they have never experienced such material wealth, even with a few decades of western decadance between them and the SSR days.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 06, 2022, 12:12:02 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/us/american-veterans-volunteer-ukraine-russia.html

Quote
Hector said he hoped to train Ukrainians in his expertise: armored vehicles and heavy weapons.

“A lot of veterans, we have a calling to serve, and we trained our whole career for this kind of war,” he said. “Sitting by and doing nothing? I had to do that when Afghanistan fell apart, and it weighed heavily on me. I had to act.”

All across the United States, small groups of military veterans are gathering, planning and getting passports in order. After years of serving in smoldering occupations, trying to spread democracy in places that had only a tepid interest in it, many are hungry for what they see as a righteous fight to defend freedom against an autocratic aggressor with a conventional and target-rich army.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 06, 2022, 12:15:55 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-poland-warplanes-ukraine

Quote
The United States is considering a deal with Poland to send U.S. warplanes to Warsaw to replace any Soviet-era fighter jets the NATO country sends to Ukraine.
...
Under the proposal, the Ukrainians would receive Russian-made MiGs that Poland inherited after the Cold War ended.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on March 06, 2022, 06:30:01 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-poland-warplanes-ukraine

Good move on Polands part as they may be next in Putins sight anyway.  Better to arm up with better technology before the madman decides his next move.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 06, 2022, 07:46:58 AM
I think another member called it a couple of pages up: Besides Iran, we are also now courting Venezuela for oil. So pretty much putting the US under the Russian sphere of influence. As well as further under the Chinese sphere of influence.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Boomhauer on March 06, 2022, 08:13:13 AM
I think another member called it a couple of pages up: Besides Iran, we are also now courting Venezuela for oil. So pretty much putting the US under the Russian sphere of influence. As well as further under the Chinese sphere of influence.

I was tearing into a dumbfuck liberal yesterday on Facebook. He was calling for us to buy Iranian oil, praising Keynesian economics, denigrating those of us who were opposite of him as uneducated idiots who skipped college, saying that the price of gas should be high, etc. The prospective he claimed that gave him all the clairvoyance of what was good for the US and how he knew so much more than us rubes? He was a banker.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 06, 2022, 08:21:40 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/us/american-veterans-volunteer-ukraine-russia.html

Fox and Friends is right now interviewing a Ukrainian soldier who is in a unit that is tasked with integrating foreign fighters into the Ukrainian Foreign Legion. He estimated that they have 16K volunteers so far, and he said most of them are from the US. They are asking for a one or more year commitment.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on March 06, 2022, 09:47:48 AM
Trump has a horrible idea about what the USA should do- though I assume he is probably joking:

Speaking of the situation in Ukraine, Trump told donors that the US should put Chinese flags on America's F-22s and then 'bomb the s***' out of Russia, leading to conflict between the nations while 'we sit back and watch.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10582503/Trump-says-let-situation-Ukraine-continue-slams-paper-tiger-NATO.html

This is a joke right?   :O
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 06, 2022, 09:51:17 AM
Yes
He loves trolling the media
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 06, 2022, 09:52:02 AM
Yup. As usual, the MSM took the quote out of context and turned a joke into "orange man".
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 06, 2022, 01:02:35 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-poland-warplanes-ukraine

Quote
The United States is considering a deal with Poland to send U.S. warplanes to Warsaw to replace any Soviet-era fighter jets the NATO country sends to Ukraine.
...
Under the proposal, the Ukrainians would receive Russian-made MiGs that Poland inherited after the Cold War ended.

Just saw something that said Russia is now hitting the western airfields to counter that.
Note: Unconfirmed
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 06, 2022, 01:52:41 PM
The admin nixed that idea as soon as it was brought up. Just like returning energy production to 2019 levels. We are led by idiots.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 06, 2022, 02:12:14 PM
Well hold onto your tinfoil. I guess Poland has a green light to give Migs to Ukraine.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 06, 2022, 02:47:47 PM
Well hold onto your tinfoil. I guess Poland has a green light to give Migs to Ukraine.

I just read Warsaw said not true, thankfully, fake news.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 06, 2022, 03:52:46 PM
(https://ei.marketwatch.com/Multimedia/2015/04/13/Photos/NS/MW-DJ511_crimea_20150413112303_NS.jpg?uuid=fca26146-e1f0-11e4-a66e-f3c422c94e71)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 06, 2022, 03:54:29 PM
(https://memeadda.com/uploads/memes/points-tally-pope-0-putin-3-1598301015.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 06, 2022, 04:12:05 PM
GERMANY RE-ARMING
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B4njJatAhA

Video from Military Aviation History.  Looks like Germany is trying to take a 180 degree turn in foreign policy and funding their army and air force....thanks to Putin. 

As he said, we will see if they follow through.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 06, 2022, 04:17:23 PM
I just read Warsaw said not true, thankfully, fake news.

Link?

What I've seen is that:

Quote
Poland had approached the White House last week after it weighed in on sending its warplanes to Ukraine amid Russia's growing aggression. Warsaw asked the White House if the Biden administration could guarantee fighter jets to fill the gap to which the former replied that they would look into the matter.

And today:
Quote
Reporter: What more can the United States do here?  If, for instance, the Polish government, a NATO member, wants to send fighter jets: Does that get a green light for the US, or are you afraid that will escalate tension?

Blinken: No, that gets a green light.  In fact we're talking with our Polish friends right now about what we might be able to do to backfill their needs if in fact they choose to provide these fighter jets to the Ukrainians.  What can we do, how can we help to makes sure they get something to backfill the planes that they are handing over to the Ukrainians.  We're in very active discussions with them about that.

It seems the the ball is back in Poland's court.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 06, 2022, 04:42:40 PM
Ukraine is game to you!?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzLtF_PxbYw
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 06, 2022, 05:45:12 PM
Link?

What I've seen is that:

And today:
It seems the the ball is back in Poland's court.
All I have is a tweet -  https://twitter.com/PremierRP_en/status/1500345167211114497?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Quote
Chancellery of the Prime Minister of Poland@PremierRP_enReplying to @nexta_tv‼️FAKE NEWS‼️
Unfortunately you are spreading misinformation with quotation from 27/02/22.

Poland won't send its fighter jets to #Ukraine as well as allow to use its airports. We significantly help in many other areas.

With the fog of war who knows?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 06, 2022, 06:12:12 PM
We're maybe a week or two away from a surrender, new borders and a neutral, NATO assurances of no expansion into Ukraine will follow.

We'll see how well my prognostication based upon others prognostications fairs  :P 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 06, 2022, 06:28:05 PM
Taiwan is watching and taking notes I'm sure.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 06, 2022, 07:31:44 PM
Russia is recruiting Syrians for urban combat in Ukraine, according to U.S. officials:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-recruiting-syrians-for-urban-combat-in-ukraine-u-s-officials-say-11646606234

Belarussians, Chechens, now Syrians.  Russia has really gotten into outsourcing their war.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: 230RN on March 06, 2022, 07:46:05 PM
Ben:
"
This is why it's enlightening to read the stories from foreign sources - even the English translations as long as the translations are done by the source. Just from reading the German news, I get some completely different perspectives. I notice that the English translations are not quite the same story, but close enough.
"

I mentioned exactly that before, but with respect to the short-wave stations of various countries when I got my first short-wave radio back in the seventies:

This is 230RN writing on The Best Source For News thread about a week ago:

"
I turned into a SW {"Short Wave" --ed} Junkie. Each foreign station had their own slant on particular news items.  But for general news they were in basic agreement.  The trouble was this basic agreement often had little to do with what I would get in the US news outlets, which made them sound like they were happening on another planet.

That's when I awakened ("woke" =D ) to the possibility that our news outlets were less than perfect.
"
So it's been going on for a while. Perhaps since the Rosetta Stone.

Thanks for the echo, Ben

Terry, 230RN
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 06, 2022, 07:52:17 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/world/nato-countries-green-light-send-fighter-jets-ukraine-blinken

Looks like Polish jets to Ukraine is going to happen.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Cliffh on March 06, 2022, 09:02:52 PM
Trump has a horrible idea about what the USA should do- though I assume he is probably joking:

Speaking of the situation in Ukraine, Trump told donors that the US should put Chinese flags on America's F-22s and then 'bomb the s***' out of Russia, leading to conflict between the nations while 'we sit back and watch.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10582503/Trump-says-let-situation-Ukraine-continue-slams-paper-tiger-NATO.html

This is a joke right?   :O

I assumed it was a joke, so did DW. 

On the other hand, DW corresponds with an uber-liberal.  That person sent her the above, along with a rant about how "orange man" is batshit crazy, an F'ing moron and we're lucky he's not still in the White House or we'd be neck deep in WW3.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 06, 2022, 09:22:48 PM
I suspect we are already at least balls deep in WWIII behind the scenes. My main question is which side is our government on...
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 06, 2022, 09:25:37 PM
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1500631918584467464

Quote
Hacking group Anonymous interrupts Russian state TV programs with footage of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine and an anti-war message.

It claims to have accessed TV channels “Russia 24”, “Channel 1”, “Moscow 24”, & streaming services Wink and Ivi.

Haven't seen independent confirmation yet.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 06, 2022, 09:40:09 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/world/nato-countries-green-light-send-fighter-jets-ukraine-blinken

Looks like Polish jets to Ukraine is going to happen.
The tweet I posted from the Polish Prime Ministers Chancellery saying they will not be sending jets was after SOS Blinkins visit to Poland yesterday. I haven't seen anything from Poland on the subject today.

Did the US say do it and Poland is balking?



Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 06, 2022, 09:42:07 PM
The tweet I posted from the Polish Prime Ministers Chancellery saying they will not be sending jets was after SOS Blinkins visit to Poland. I haven't seen anything from Poland on the subject today.

Did the US say do it and Poland is balking?

Agreed with the timing, and also thank you for linking the tweet, Ron.

The polish tweet does reference a "quotation from 27/02/22", so I don't know what to believe.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 06, 2022, 09:50:48 PM
Pirates are Broadcasting Troll Faces on Russian Military Radio
https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/t871gu/pirates_are_broadcasting_troll_faces_on_russian/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Bogie on March 06, 2022, 11:07:02 PM
In the Russia/Ukraine conflict, whose side is the US Government on?
 
China's.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 07, 2022, 07:39:03 AM
In the Russia/Ukraine conflict, whose side is the US Government on?
 
China's.

Who won the biding war on Hunter's latest painting?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 07, 2022, 07:41:08 AM
Putin offering safe evac corridors......to Russia
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 07, 2022, 08:10:29 AM
Doesn't include a demand of a change in government.

Quote
8:00
Kremlin demands Ukraine recognise Crimea as Russian

Russia has said that it can stop operations at "any moment" if Ukraine meets Russian conditions.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov says Ukraine must recognise Crimea as Russian, and Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states.

In addition to this, Peskov says Ukraine must amend its constitution and reject claims to enter any bloc (like Nato, for example).

He adds that Russia will finish the "demilitarisation" of Ukraine, and if these conditions are met Russian military action will "stop in a moment".

The Kremlin spokesman insists that Russia is not seeking to make any further territorial claims on Ukraine.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60635927
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 07, 2022, 08:25:22 AM
2019 article about Nazi's in Ukraine.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-america-training-neonazis-in-ukraine
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 07, 2022, 08:33:46 AM
2019 article about Nazi's in Ukraine.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-america-training-neonazis-in-ukraine

Was trying to do a quick scan and scrolled down and this popped up

Russian State TV Just Blew Up Putin’s ‘Nazi Ukraine’ Bullshit
JIG’S UP
Russian lawmakers suddenly blab what Putin actually wants in Ukraine—and it has nothing to do with “Nazis.”
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 07, 2022, 08:44:40 AM
Was trying to do a quick scan and scrolled down and this popped up

Russian State TV Just Blew Up Putin’s ‘Nazi Ukraine’ Bullshit
JIG’S UP
Russian lawmakers suddenly blab what Putin actually wants in Ukraine—and it has nothing to do with “Nazis.”

Russia wants to get the band back together. They are nowhere near strong enough to make it happen. They are strong enough to stop Ukraine from slipping into the western empire.

I wasn't sure what to make of all the Nazi talk truth be told. Whenever I see Nazi I roll my eyes and ignore. It was a little bit of a shock to see that there are actual Nazi's in Ukraine.

You can go ahead and reject my article as the rantings of a pro Putin media source if you can handle the cog diss.

The Daily Beast, tool of Putin and Trump  :laugh:

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 07, 2022, 08:57:28 AM
The whole nazi thing is something many in the West may not understand, origin-wise. The population of Ukraine can be thought of as analogous to West/East Germany. There is a large population with strong Russian ties, and a large population with strong German ties, especially WW2 Germany. Not really nazi Germany, but more sympathetic to Germany than to Russia. In part, of course, because of the great famine.

Hot Ukrainian ex-coworker's mom, like my mom, spent time in a German refuge camp. Not long after I met her, I was shocked to hear her cussing at the copy machine at work. In German. I started to learn a bit more about Western Ukraine's historical ties to Germany. Especially related to Russia. The older people in her family spoke about Russia the same way the people of my parent's generation did. A favorite derogatory epithet of my dad's generation was "dreckiger Russe" (dirty Russian) or "schwartzer Russe" (black Russian)*. This goes back some time, historically, and part of Ukraine is part of that. Older members of HUC's family hate the Ruskies with a passion and they all think krauts are the bomb.

I've actually been surprised that much of Eastern Ukraine hasn't thrown flowers at the Russians instead of bullets, given most of the anti-Russian population has always been in the West.


*Not SJW black, but a historical designator:

https://belarus-travel.com/theconcept-of-whiterussia/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 07, 2022, 09:01:55 AM
Russia wants to get the band back together. They are nowhere near strong enough to make it happen. They are strong enough to stop Ukraine from slipping into the western empire.

I wasn't sure what to make of all the Nazi talk truth be told. Whenever I see Nazi I roll my eyes and ignore. It was a little bit of a shock to see that there are actual Nazi's in Ukraine.

You can go ahead and reject my article as the rantings of a pro Putin media source if you can handle the cog diss.

The Daily Beast, tool of Putin and Trump  :laugh:

TDB will swing far left in one article then far right in the next often on the very same subject.
Occasionally they'll hit the truth in the middle on their way from one side to the other but it's usually more of a hit and run type of accident.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 07, 2022, 09:14:13 AM
Ukraine I guess is the first "Nazi" country with both a Jewish president and a Jewish prime minister at the same time.
Not saying there's maybe not a Nazi here and there but like Racist the term Nazi has lost a lot of it's true meaning lately. Just flashing the okay sign will get you labeled a racist nazi nowadays.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 07, 2022, 09:23:59 AM
Quote
What's been happening so far today?

If you're just joining our live coverage, here's a round-up of the latest key developments on day 12 of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

    A third round of talks is set to be held between Ukrainian and Russian negotiators from 16:00 Kyiv time (14:00 GMT), according to Ukrainian officials

    A new Russian plan for a temporary ceasefire in Ukraine allowing civilians access to certain humanitarian corridors has been criticised - with the UK calling it "cynical beyond belief" and Ukraine branding it "immoral"
    Under Moscow's proposal, civilians fleeing Ukraine's capital Kyiv would be offered safe passage to Russia's ally Belarus, while those in Kharkiv will have a corridor leading only to Russia itself
    Evacuation routes from the besieged cities of Mariupol and Sumy will lead to other Ukrainian cities and to Russian ones
    Ukraine says Russian forces are targeting hospitals, nurseries and schools - and civilians have been caught up in the assault
    But Russia denies targeting civilians, saying it is carrying out a "special military operation" against Ukrainian "nationalists" and "neo-Nazis"
    Petrol prices have hit another record high as oil prices jumped to $139 a barrel while wholesale gas prices for next-day delivery more than doubled. The average price of a litre of petrol in the UK hit 155p for the first time
    It came as the US hinted at a ban on buying Russian energy, as it looked to other countries to increase supplies

    UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson is holding talks with the Canadian and Dutch prime ministers in London, as Western powers prepare to agree further sanctions on Russia
    Amid scrutiny of the UK's policy on Ukrainian refugees, Johnson insisted the government would be "very generous" to people fleeing the country but would not let them in without any checks
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60635927
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 07, 2022, 09:32:08 AM
Grain of salt mode on

Google Putin cancer and a lot of articles coming up say Putin may have terminal cancer which they say explains his pale puffy look and also why he sits so far away from everyone at the end of long table since both the cancer and treatments leave him extremely vulnerable to COVID.
I'm not necessarily buying it just making you aware

Grain of salt mode off
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: fifth_column on March 07, 2022, 09:56:09 AM
Some Ukrainians are repurposing Russian equipment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t8kghz/ukrain_mayor_has_the_solution_makes_good_use_of/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t8kghz/ukrain_mayor_has_the_solution_makes_good_use_of/)

 :rofl:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 07, 2022, 11:11:19 AM
Some Ukrainians are repurposing Russian equipment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t8kghz/ukrain_mayor_has_the_solution_makes_good_use_of/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t8kghz/ukrain_mayor_has_the_solution_makes_good_use_of/)

 :rofl:

Spray painting "WC" on the tank was a nice touch.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 07, 2022, 11:13:39 AM
I hope the Ukrainians aren't going to want that tank  [barf]
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 07, 2022, 06:59:31 PM
China reportedly may get involved in talks. Wonder if the high oil prices are turning the screws on them now.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 07, 2022, 07:53:15 PM
Reportedly another Russian general killed

Quote
Russian military leader killed in battle, says Ukraine
Vitaly Gerasimov
Ukrainian ministry of defenceCopyright: Ukrainian ministry of defence
Ukrainian military intelligence says Vitaly Gerasimov died near KharkivImage caption: Ukrainian military intelligence says Vitaly Gerasimov died near Kharkiv

A top commander in the Russian army has been killed during fighting near Kharkiv, according to Ukraine's ministry of defence intelligence service.

The BBC cannot independently verify the claim; Russian officials have not commented.

According to a statement from Ukraine’s defence ministry, Vitaly Gerasimov was a major general, chief of staff and first deputy commander of the 41st Army of the Central Military District of Russia.

A number of senior Russian army officers were also killed and wounded, it says.

Ukrainian intelligence says Gerasimov took part in the second Chechen war and the Russian military operation in Syria. He received a medal "for the return of Crimea".

Ukrainian officials tweeted out a photo of someone they said was Gerasimov, with the word "Liquidated" in red letters across the bottom.

BBC diplomatic correspondent Paul Adams shares this thought on reports of Gerasimov's death.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60635927

Quote
The Kyiv Independent@KyivIndependent⚡️Ukraine kills Russian Major General Vitaly Gerasimov near Kharkiv, Ukraine’s Chief Directorate of Intelligence of the Defense Ministry said.

Gerasimov was a senior military official who participated in the second Chechen war and was awarded a medal for “capturing Crimea.”
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 07, 2022, 10:07:39 PM
Word is from a contributor in Kyvi to a live feed I follow is that the Russians will start moving into Kyiv in a day or two. He said he's going to try get out in the morning, taking his cat Dasha who shows up on camera from time to time with him.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 08, 2022, 09:20:36 AM
Yes Virginia there are people who believe this is some sort of hoax.

Ukraine invasion: False claims the war is a hoax go viral
https://www.bbc.com/news/60589965
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 08, 2022, 12:55:55 PM
So Biden is going to stop Russian oil imports now, but apparently without doing anything to increase domestic production. Brilliant!

Yes Virginia there are people who believe this is some sort of hoax.

Ukraine invasion: False claims the war is a hoax go viral
https://www.bbc.com/news/60589965
Was talking to one of those yesterday.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 08, 2022, 12:59:49 PM
Was talking to one of those yesterday.  :facepalm:

Some people need to be pushed off the edge of the earth.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 08, 2022, 01:16:47 PM
Russia wants to get the band back together. They are nowhere near strong enough to make it happen. They are strong enough to stop Ukraine from slipping into the western empire.

I wasn't sure what to make of all the Nazi talk truth be told. Whenever I see Nazi I roll my eyes and ignore. It was a little bit of a shock to see that there are actual Nazi's in Ukraine.


So Putin's claim of denazifying Ukraine is far more realistic and fact-based than the American Left's crusade against white supremacy and patriarchy. chuckle
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 08, 2022, 01:17:34 PM
Some people need to be pushed off the edge of the earth.

I see what you did there.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: K Frame on March 08, 2022, 01:49:47 PM
The Brandon administration is claiming that 4,000+ Russian soldiers have died in the invasion so far.

Russia has admitted to 429, last I heard.

If the 4,000 claim is close to true, that's freaking HUGE.

The Soviets lost an estimated 15,000 soldiers during the Afghanistan incursion -- and those deaths were spread out over 9 years.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 08, 2022, 02:01:51 PM
I think 4000 dead and the number of wounded that would go with that figure would be pretty hard to hide from the world, for either side. I think our admin is just repeating the Ukrainian's [optimistic] estimates of how many enemy they have killed.

You are correct, anywhere close to 4000 dead in a two week war would be pretty catastrophic for the Russians.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 08, 2022, 02:37:12 PM
Quote
Poland to deploy all their MIG-29 jets 'at the disposal' of the US
A view of MIG-29 of Polish Air Forces at 22nd Air Base Command in Malbork, Poland on August 27, 2021.
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images

Poland says it is ready to deploy, "immediately and free of charge", all its MIG-29 jets to the Ramstein Air Base in Germany and place them "at the disposal" of the US government.

In exchange, Poland asks the United States to provide them with "used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities", and it adds that it is "ready to immediately establish the conditions of purchase of the planes".

The Polish government also requests other Nato allies - who are owners of MIG-29 jets - to act in the same vein.

The US confirmed over the weekend that it is working on a deal with Poland to supply Ukraine with jets.

It is reported to involve Poland handing over its existing MIG-29 in exchange for the US providing it with other fighter jets as replacements.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60657155
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 08, 2022, 02:55:30 PM
^^^If I was the Poles, I wonder what I would be asking for in exchange.  Something along the lines of the F-16/F-15/F-18? Do the Poles have the technological infrastructure to support the F-22/F-35, and are there even any spare F-22/F-35 airframes?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 08, 2022, 02:57:36 PM
I'm hearing F-16s.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 08, 2022, 03:00:39 PM
Ehhhhh and that pus the US directly supplying MIG's to the Ukrainians.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 08, 2022, 03:06:08 PM
Ehhhhh and that pus the US directly supplying MIG's to the Ukrainians.
We're already providing weapons directly to Ukraine, aren't we?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 08, 2022, 03:12:09 PM
The Mig-29s are being traded to Venezuela for 20 barrels of oil. We're sending Kamala to Ukraine
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 08, 2022, 03:12:59 PM
We're already providing weapons directly to Ukraine, aren't we?

Yes, but for some reason many seems to think fighter jets are a bridge too far, and an escalation which could cause Russia to consider the US a belligerent.  I'm not sure how much that matters in a proxy conflict between two nuclear states.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 08, 2022, 03:17:07 PM
Yes, but for some reason many seems to think fighter jets are a bridge too far, and an escalation which could cause Russia to consider the US a belligerent.  I'm not sure how much that matters in a proxy conflict between two nuclear states.
Sure, that's fair, but in my opinion we've already given them plenty of pretext if that's what they want.  For instance, they had a policy that kicking them out of SWIFT would be considered an act of war.  We did that (at least partially).  Plus all the weapons we've already sent.

At this stage, sending more equipment doesn't seem like it is any more transgressive.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 08, 2022, 03:22:18 PM
Sure, that's fair, but in my opinion we've already given them plenty of pretext if that's what they want.  For instance, they had a policy that kicking them out of SWIFT would be considered an act of war.  We did that (at least partially).  Plus all the weapons we've already sent.

At this stage, sending more equipment doesn't seem like it is any more transgressive.

Yea, that's fair.  I suspect that despite the rhetoric on both sides, either side can get away with a lot before the other one begrudgingly actually calls it a war.  If that even really means anything anymore either.  It's just semantics, right?  The US has been in a lot of conflicts-that-totally-aren't-wars.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 08, 2022, 03:24:39 PM
At this stage, sending more equipment doesn't seem like it is any more transgressive.

I'm much less worried about the ruskie response to us sending fighters to the conflict than I am about their response to us sending US manned fighters to the conflict and knocking a MIG out of the sky in a no-fly zone.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on March 08, 2022, 03:31:27 PM
Ehhhhh and that pus the US directly supplying MIG's to the Ukrainians.

We're already providing weapons directly to Ukraine, aren't we?

If we’re going to send them warplanes in the current circumstances better to send stuff they don’t need new training on.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 08, 2022, 03:34:55 PM
If we’re going to send them warplanes in the current circumstances better to send stuff they don’t need new training on.

Yep, why the Mig-29s, they're already trained and equipped for them. Although I wonder if they'll have an issue with everything being marked in Polish
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 08, 2022, 03:42:04 PM
This will certainly be an escalation. Wonder how they are going to fair against Russian AA missiles and air force?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 08, 2022, 03:42:39 PM
Says they're in violation of terms of service.
Reading the article I can see that. But some of this stuff does fall into a grey area though.

Patreon Suspends Donations to Nonprofit Providing Body Armor to Ukrainian Soldiers
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/patreon-suspends-donations-to-nonprofit-providing-body-armor-to-ukrainian-soldiers/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 08, 2022, 03:50:42 PM
The thought occurred to me today:  Do we think that the Soviet era nukes and rockets are any better maintained and operational then the rest of the Red Army's gear is proving to be?  Given the results if we guess wrong, I'm not eager to roll the dice, but it's something to think about while sipping bourbon.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 08, 2022, 03:54:32 PM
The though occurred to me today:  Do we think that the Soviet era nukes and rockets are any better maintained and operational then the rest of the Red Army's gear is proving to be?  Given the results if we guess wrong, I'm not eager to roll the dice, but it's something to think about while sipping bourbon.

That thought has gone through my mind as well. But I would rather we didn't play Russian Roulette with nuclear weapons.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 08, 2022, 03:57:58 PM
That thought has gone through my mind as well. But I would rather we didn't play Russian Roulette with nuclear weapons.
I'm hoping there are many many baby steps before we leap into that potentiality.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 08, 2022, 04:00:10 PM
If this isn't next years John Deere commercial, I will be disappointed.

https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1501293371071123456?s=20&t=EGm9xqauq_iQKIoHpcCMyg
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 08, 2022, 04:03:52 PM
The though occurred to me today:  Do we think that the Soviet era nukes and rockets are any better maintained and operational then the rest of the Red Army's gear is proving to be?  Given the results if we guess wrong, I'm not eager to roll the dice, but it's something to think about while sipping bourbon.
I was thinking along those lines as well, but with their nuclear stockpile it's really just a numbers game.  It doesn't take very many functional nukes to ruin our day, and even one that fails to go nuclear still makes a mess.  If a mere one out of ten in their actual deployed force actually work then they have plenty to target all major population centers in the US and Europe and plenty to go around for extra hits.  Allegedly they're also in the middle of a nuclear modernization effort, so some are pretty new.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 08, 2022, 04:20:04 PM
The thought occurred to me today:  Do we think that the Soviet era nukes and rockets are any better maintained and operational then the rest of the Red Army's gear is proving to be?  Given the results if we guess wrong, I'm not eager to roll the dice, but it's something to think about while sipping bourbon.

No idea if this is true:
I've read that this is one area that post-soviet Russia kept funding well, in no small part because international agreements mean that foreign experts do get to see those weapons, and would be acutely aware of their status.  The nuclear deterrent wouldn't work so well if everyone could see that it wasn't going fire when needed.  The delivery vehicles, I don't know.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on March 08, 2022, 04:30:29 PM
If this isn't next years John Deere commercial, I will be disappointed.

https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1501293371071123456?s=20&t=EGm9xqauq_iQKIoHpcCMyg

"After 12 days of stealing Putin's tanks, Ukrainian farmers are now unofficially the fifth-largest military in Europe."
Business Ukraine Magazine
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 08, 2022, 04:52:28 PM

Lots of good info in this video.

 Ed Nash's Military Matters
Ukraine – Day 13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j06nt7cofR8
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 08, 2022, 06:58:51 PM
Not so fast

Quote
Poland jet swap 'not tenable' - US
Pentagon spokesman John Kirby
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images
Pentagon Spokesman John KirbyImage caption: Pentagon Spokesman John Kirby

US defence department spokesman John Kirby has rejected Poland's surprise offer to hand over its military jet fleet to the US - rather than Ukraine.

"As we have said, the decision about whether to transfer Polish-owned planes to Ukraine is ultimately one for the Polish government," Kirby said in a statement on Tuesday, adding that "Poland's proposal shows just some of the complexities this issue presents".

"The prospect of fighter jets 'at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America' departing from a US/Nato base in Germany to fly into airspace that is contested with Russia over Ukraine raises serious concerns for the entire Nato alliance," he said.

"It is simply not clear to us that there is a substantive rationale for it. We will continue to consult with Poland and our other Nato allies about this issue and the difficult logistical challenges it presents, but we do not believe Poland's proposal is a tenable one."
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60657155
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 08, 2022, 07:00:56 PM
If this isn't next years John Deere commercial, I will be disappointed.

https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1501293371071123456?s=20&t=EGm9xqauq_iQKIoHpcCMyg

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNWsDRYX0AAEqGE?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 08, 2022, 07:15:25 PM
The thought occurred to me today:  Do we think that the Soviet era nukes and rockets are any better maintained and operational then the rest of the Red Army's gear is proving to be?  Given the results if we guess wrong, I'm not eager to roll the dice, but it's something to think about while sipping bourbon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDKH_FxFdrw

Task & Purpose showed some footage of Russian supply trucks with flat tires or dry rotted tires indicating some of their stuff is poorly maintained.  I don't want to plan on the nuclear capability being in the same boat.  At the least, there will be a portion of it that is in good readiness and that is enough. 

That video shows a little of what he thinks the Russians are up to.  He thinks they are taking things slow and making sure they have good logistics before they push forward. 

Similar to Nukes, I am curious just how much of Russia's military is fully ready to go and how much is poorly maintained or is lacking in fuel/parts/supplies.  I was sort of wondering if this is why they haven't used their jet aircraft as much.  Maybe they don't have a big stockpile of parts/fuel/munitions for an extended engagement.  Or maybe they would have to draw down forces in other areas more than they want.  Just speculation I guess.  Russian has a big, well equipped military, but they don't have the biggest economy.  There have to be gaps somewhere.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 08, 2022, 07:26:54 PM

That video shows a little of what he thinks the Russians are up to.  He thinks they are taking things slow and making sure they have good logistics before they push forward. 


The only flaw in that theory is they appear to have *expletive deleted*it logistics.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 08, 2022, 07:47:49 PM
Quote
Fitch says default 'imminent' on Russian debt
Russian rouble bank notes
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images

Fitch Ratings has downgraded Russia's credit rating further into 'junk' territory, from "B" to "C".

"The 'C' rating reflects Fitch's view that a sovereign default is imminent," according to a statement from the American credit rating agency today.

The change comes less than a week after Fitch's last downgrade, when it revoked Russia's investment-grade status.

Sanctions and trade restrictions have plunged the country's financial markets into turmoil and raised concerns about its ability to service debt.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60657155
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: bedlamite on March 08, 2022, 07:52:51 PM
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005055/user-clip-biolabs-confirmed-ukraine
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 08, 2022, 08:45:04 PM
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005055/user-clip-biolabs-confirmed-ukraine
Interesting.  Why would anyone be worried about the "research materials"? 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 08, 2022, 08:46:12 PM
The only flaw in that theory is they appear to have *expletive deleted*it logistics.
Yeah.  Just means they don't have a choice but to do what they are doing.  =)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 08, 2022, 08:54:52 PM
Quote
Russia Will Stop ‘In a Moment’ if Ukraine Meets Terms – Kremlin

By Reuters
|
March 7, 2022, at 6:57 a.m
By Catherine Belton

LONDON (Reuters) -Russia has told Ukraine it is ready to halt military operations “in a moment” if Kyiv meets a list of conditions, the Kremlin spokesman said on Monday.

Dmitry Peskov said Moscow was demanding that Ukraine cease military action, change its constitution to enshrine neutrality, acknowledge Crimea as Russian territory, and recognize the separatist republics of Donetsk and Lugansk as independent states.

It was the most explicit Russian statement so far of the terms it wants to impose on Ukraine to halt what it calls its “special military operation”, now on its 12th day.

Peskov told Reuters in a telephone interview that Ukraine was aware of the conditions. “And they were told that all this can be stopped in a moment.”

Russia might want to get the band back together but apparently not now. They don't even want Ukraine. They just don't want NATO on their border in Ukraine.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 08, 2022, 09:11:27 PM
The only flaw in that theory is they appear to have *expletive deleted*it logistics.

How long do you think Ukraine can hold out? I'm thinking two weeks max assuming nobody else joins the war officially.

From what I've read Ukraine had most of their military staged in the region of the breakaway states. That means the majority of the Ukraine military are more or less surrounded already. How long can they hold out as an island in the midst of a sea of Russian troops?

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 08, 2022, 09:49:57 PM
Quote
Venezuela releases Americans after oil negotiations
A Venezuelan man putting petrol in his car
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images

Venezuela's socialist government has released two imprisoned Americans days after Biden administration officials travelled to Caracas to meet President Nicolás Maduro.

The move suggests a thawing of relations between the US and Venezuela, Russia's strongest ally in the Western hemisphere.

After banning Russian oil imports, the US is looking for other nations to help ease the supply shortage. Oil-producing Arab nations in the Gulf have reportedly been unwilling to increase exports, despite requests from the US.

US officials have told Venezuela that in order to remove sanctions on the country's oil sector, shipments to the US must be prioritised first, according to a Reuters report.

Some US lawmakers have aggressively denounced the idea of working with Venezuela to allow the country to export more oil.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60657155
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 08, 2022, 11:35:38 PM
Russia to "unplug" from the global Internet on March 11:

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/84949/russia-to-disconnect-from-global-internet-on-march-11/index.html

(at least that's the popular rumour)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 09, 2022, 08:00:39 AM
Putin easing up on demands? Maybe?

Quote
Israeli officials say Russia-Ukraine talks at critical point - reports
Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett (C) gestures to reporters before a cabinet meeting in Jerusalem on 6 March 2022
ReutersCopyright: Reuters
Israel's prime minister has been speaking to both Ukraine and Russia's presidentsImage caption: Israel's prime minister has been speaking to both Ukraine and Russia's presidents

As we've been hearing, talks between Russia and Ukraine's foreign ministers are set to take place in Turkey tomorrow, and the country's President Erdogan is hoping to act as a mediator.

Meanwhile, Israel’s Prime Minister Naftali Bennett has also been acting as an intermediary, flying to Moscow to meet Russian President Vladimir Putin on Saturday and also speaking on the phone with him and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.

Israeli officials have briefed Israeli journalists that the discussions are now at a “critical” point.

US-based news site Axios reported on Tuesday night that the Israeli officials felt there had been a “softening of positions on both sides”

the Russians were saying “they only want to demilitarise the Donbas”.


Putin declared at the start of the invasion that he wanted to defend Russian-speaking communities through the “demilitarisation and de-Nazification” of Ukraine. He also demanded Ukraine recognise Crimea as part of Russia and recognise the independence of the Russian-backed areas of Luhansk and Donetsk, which are part of the Donbas region.

The Russian proposal was “difficult” for Zelensky to accept, but it “doesn’t include regime change in Kyiv and allows Ukraine to keep its sovereignty”, the Israeli officials added.

The Jerusalem Post cited sources as saying the Russian offer was “final”
, and that Putin would ramp up the Russian assault Mr Zelensky rejected it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60657155
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 09, 2022, 08:03:35 AM
Russia to "unplug" from the global Internet on March 11:

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/84949/russia-to-disconnect-from-global-internet-on-march-11/index.html

(at least that's the popular rumour)

You know how many Russian hackers that would put out of work?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 09, 2022, 08:06:50 AM
And something to go with your morning coffee
Really don't know how much of a REAL problem this is or could be but here it is.

Quote
Ukraine says Chernobyl nuclear plant loses power supply
Chernobyl Nuclear plant
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images

Ukraine's state run nuclear company says electricity supplies to the former power plant at Chernobyl have been cut and has warned that radioactive substances could be released, because spent nuclear fuel cannot be cooled.

In a post of the telegram messaging app, Energoatom says a high-voltage line feeding the plant was disconnected after it was damaged during Russia's seizure of the station nearly two weeks ago.

Ukraine's Energy Minister German Galushchenko told the BBC that Ukraine has no access to monitoring information at the station and therefore cannot evaluate whether any radioactive substances are being released.

"We need to repair it as quickly as we can," Galushchenko said. But he added that there is "a special system of security in case of electricity cuts" which will allow the plant to operate for several days using diesel generators.

Earlier, the IAEA said it had stopped receiving monitoring data from the plant and warned that Ukrainian authorities had told them the plant's staff of about 210 workers have been on duty constantly for the past two weeks.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60657155
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 09, 2022, 09:01:01 AM
How long do you think Ukraine can hold out? I'm thinking two weeks max assuming nobody else joins the war officially.

From what I've read Ukraine had most of their military staged in the region of the breakaway states. That means the majority of the Ukraine military are more or less surrounded already. How long can they hold out as an island in the midst of a sea of Russian troops?

At this point I legitimately don't know.  Two weeks ago I would have said 96 hours.  Now?

Ukraine is doing the correct stuff.  They pulled their armor formations away from the Russians after the first clash, and have denied the Russians the ability to pin them into a decisive battle.  They appear to have spent almost a decade prepping the battlespace, including usable logistics caches, and are using that preparation to enable small unit operations that are very effective.  They have let the Russian lead echelons penetrate pretty deep into their territory (trading land for time) and then have done a decent job of compromising Russian logistics in the Russian rear area.  They have a well organized and decently equipped reserve force that are being kept in their villages and home areas, so they have both motivation and homefield advantage, and those forces are being told not to engage front line enemy units, which expands their longevity significantly.  Ukrainian C2 seems to be largely functional.  While they don't have air superiority, they have denied it to the Russians allowing the Ukrainians to continue with (limited) strike and ISR capability.

The Russians have also gifted the Ukrainians by deciding to encircle and shell cities, as not only is that a PR nightmare, it provides a readymade infantry battlespace.  Russian AFVs and Tanks will not be able to maneuver freely in heavily damaged cities, and once they dismount the Ukrainian infantry, both regular and irregular, have proven to be very competent.  I suspect they are preparing defensive positions in those cities right now.

So, as is often the case, it will come down to logistics and morale.  Morale side, I think the Ukranians are clearly more than willing to fight, even to the destruction of large swaths of their country.  They are building themselves a mythos in real time. Conversely the Russians seem to be pretty cynical about the whole "De-Nazification" thing and are only there because they have to be.

On the logistics side, the Russians are at the end of a medium length supply route, the last bit of which runs through unsecured territory.  They have a massive *expletive deleted*it ton of fuel, ammo, and probably food, the question is do they have the assets and ability to deliver it.  That requires a bunch of trucks that work, some infantry to defend them, and the extra fuel and food to move them.

The Ukrainians are receiving supplies from NATO, and pretty clearly have significant supplies on the ground in distributed areas. I don't think anyone knows how much, because as far as I know we didn't know they had done this prep.


If the war stays like this, it's a question of weather the Russians lose the ability to supply fuel and ammo to their troops before the Ukrainians run out of ammo and man portable AAWs*.  If the Russians manage to pin down a couple large chunks of the Ukrainian military, they are likely to defeat it, and that might push the war to their win.  I think if the Russians try to enter and take the cities they are currently encircling, I think the Ukrainians will be able to kill enough of them in urban fighting to force Putin to back off.  10,000 or so dead Russian boys is something even Putin can't hide.

Again, the big unknown is Ukrainian supply status.  They were clearly way more prepared to let this drop into a small unit irregular war and to strike at Russian REMFs while paying the cost in buildings, civilian dead, and infrastructure destroyed then anyone thought.  Since we didn't know they had prepared the battlespace at all, it's hard to guess how well they did it, but just from Russian movements, confirmed destroyed and damaged vehicles, and the lack of any large scale engagement it's pretty obvious that it's going much closer to the Ukrainian plan than the Russian one.


Also Ukrainian PSYOPS has been masterful, while Russian has been pretty heavy handed Soviet style and ineffective.

*ETA: Anti Armor Weapons.  Sorry, sometimes the acronyms slip out.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 09, 2022, 09:04:33 AM
Thanks for the great write up!
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 09, 2022, 05:13:33 PM
 Here’s another Biden administration 180 on transferring Polish fighter jets to Ukraine
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/03/09/heres-another-biden-administration-180-on-transferring-polish-fighter-jets-to-ukraine/

(https://memegenerator.net/img/images/300x300/13170221.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 09, 2022, 05:21:46 PM
https://www.ft.com/content/367fffa1-0ba8-418d-ba05-e63c70cc0c1b

Quote
I have never written political essays.
I generally find texts like these too temporal, too full of hot air and pathos. Not enough nuance. But right now I want to anchor this moment in time and place. The moment when the whole country is one entity. And the only language that can be spoken by a Ukrainian writer and every Ukrainian is the language of war.

The play that I wanted to write about “Anxiety” in premonition of war should have had a refrain: The Four Primary Rules of Firearm Safety, echoing what is being taught during the first lesson of handling firearms. I’d never held a gun in my hands till February 2022. My wife and I had several hours of training just to figure out what to do with it. Just in case. And now I regret like hell that I didn’t do that training before.

© Oleksandr Mykhed.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 09, 2022, 05:33:36 PM
Interactive map

https://liveuamap.com/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 09, 2022, 07:02:02 PM
Multiple sources have reported Zelenskyy is saying they will not pursue NATO membership.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 09, 2022, 07:18:11 PM
Multiple sources have reported Zelenskyy is saying they will not pursue NATO membership.

And per my post earlier Putin may have dropped some demands. They're trying to reach a compromise.
One is getting his country wrecked the other is about to get his country wrecked.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 09, 2022, 07:31:05 PM
 :facepalm:

Quote
    Pelosi: “When i spoke to President Zelensky, I said Billie Jean King, sends you her reguards.”@BillieJeanKing was on Capitol Hill today

    — Jake Sherman (@JakeSherman) March 9, 2022
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/03/09/nancy-pelosi-says-she-told-ukraine-president-zelenskyy-that-billie-jean-king-sends-her-regards/


Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 09, 2022, 08:17:57 PM
Kamala is in Poland
Be afraid, very afraid
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 09, 2022, 09:02:27 PM
Kamala is in Poland
Be afraid, very afraid

Can she fly a Mig-29?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 09, 2022, 09:09:06 PM
Can she fly a Mig-29?

Please put her in one.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 09, 2022, 09:11:13 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/wl6I6JR.jpg?1)
Things may get a little crazy.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 09, 2022, 09:12:04 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/qS5AVRC.jpg?1)
I didn't see anyone ask Germany to get involved, but okay.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 09, 2022, 09:29:40 PM
Quote
US estimates up to 6,000 Russia troops have died
A funeral for three Ukrainian troops in the western city of Lviv
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images
A funeral for three Ukrainian troops in the western city of LvivImage caption: A funeral for three Ukrainian troops in the western city of Lviv

The US official estimate for the number of Russians killed in the first two weeks of the war is about 5,000 to 6,000, officials tell CBS News, the BBC's partner in the US.

The number of Russian troops wounded is estimated to be about 15,000 to 18,000, going by assumptions that the number of wounded is typically three times the number of killed.

One US official who wished to remain anonymous called this projection "very, very significant casualties", and compared the death rate to some World War Two battles.

Ukraine has claimed that 12,000 Russian soldiers have died in combat. Last week Russia said fewer than 500 of its troops had died in Ukraine.

The proverbial fog of war together with propaganda make all of these claims hard to verify.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60685883
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 09, 2022, 09:40:13 PM
Can she fly a Mig-29?

No, but if the Mig-29 has a fly I'd bet she could open it with her teeth.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 09, 2022, 09:41:22 PM
Long, but worth watching:  VDH on Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFRsMs4Ltxw
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 09, 2022, 09:45:17 PM
Can she fly a Mig-29?

Can we launch her from one?

https://youtu.be/bkQcioaFcCs?t=92

(yes, I know that's not a MiG)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 09, 2022, 10:10:04 PM
Another fly in the ointment. The biolab story confirmed as true.

Glen Greenwald has a pretty straight write up at his blog.

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/victoria-nuland-ukraine-has-biological?s=w

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 09, 2022, 10:14:18 PM
What country doesn't?
Hospitals, med labs, agriculture research centers, and many colleges can be referred to as "Biological Research Facilities" as well.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 09, 2022, 11:02:51 PM
I suppose this was inevitable:

https://www.nowarinukraine.shop/shirth?name=apparel-classic-tshirt-lifestyle-front-130
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 08:14:15 AM
According to the interactive map it appears Russian made a little bit of progress to the west of Kyvi and cut the M06 Hwy is another place since I went to bed last night.

https://liveuamap.com/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 10, 2022, 08:16:10 AM
I suppose this was inevitable:

https://www.nowarinukraine.shop/shirth?name=apparel-classic-tshirt-lifestyle-front-130



Quote
This campaign was taken down for content reasons

Hit by the "curators". What was it?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 08:46:11 AM
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/Screenshot_2022-03-10_084519.png)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 08:47:36 AM
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/Screenshot_2022-03-10_084705.png)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 08:51:24 AM
Quote
Today's latest developments

If you're just joining us, or want a recap of what's been happening, here's a round-up of today's latest developments:

    Little progress has been made during peace talks between Russia and Ukraine's foreign ministers in Turkey
    Ukrainian foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba says the two ministers agreed to work on humanitarian issues, but says his country will never surrender. His Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov, says the country's operation in Ukraine is going to plan
    Ukraine is opening "seven humanitarian corridors" to help civilians leave cities besieged by Russian forces, including Mariupol, says the country's deputy PM
    Mariupol is said to be experiencing the worst humanitarian conditions in Ukraine, according to Ukrainian officials. Residents have been trapped for days in freezing temperatures without electricity or water
    In the UK, the government has imposed financial sanctions on Chelsea football club owner, Roman Abramovich. His assets - which include the club - have been frozen. But the club will be able to continue playing under a special license
    The UK Home Secretary Priti Patel has announced Ukrainian passport holders will be able to apply online for a UK refugee visa
    And in the business world, Uniqlo has become the latest global brand to suspend its operations in Russia
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60685883
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 09:15:05 AM
Quote
Former German chancellor visiting Moscow

Gerhard Schröder, the former German leader, is visiting Moscow today for talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin, Politico reports.

He's visiting with the intention of holding mediation talks with Putin in order to end the war in Ukraine, Politico says, referring to "sources familiar with the matter".
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60685883
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 10, 2022, 09:18:40 AM
A leap into the unknown: a British man joins the Ukrainian International Legion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHrGd0BcLmA

Lindybeige interviews a man heading off to the Ukraine. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 09:41:29 AM
Kamala doing her trademark chuckle in Poland when asked about Ukrainian refugees.

https://twitter.com/tomselliott/status/1501901624943464449

Quote
When asked Thursday about the building refugee crisis in Poland, Harris laughed and handed the question off to Duda, saying through chuckles: 'A friend in need is a friend indeed'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10598343/Harris-dodges-question-Polands-fighter-jet-deal-insists-united-President-Duda.html

Yeah it wasn't as bad as it could have been, still awkward though, but imagine the media's reaction if that was Pence
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on March 10, 2022, 10:14:33 AM
One of Canada's top snipers has volunteered with the Ukrainians:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/canadian-sniper-arrives-ukraine-fight-russians

Brave man... and I expect will have a lot of opportunities to fight.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 10:16:42 AM
On that note I've seen unconfirmed reports that a bunch of British special forces personnel have gone AWOL.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 10:22:17 AM
Quote
Putin: Russia can take over foreign companies' assets

More from that televised meeting chaired by Russia president Vladimir Putin.

He says the Russian government can take over the assets of foreign companies pulling out of Russia.

He says Russia can "introduce external management" of those businesses closing their production facilities, and then "hand these enterprises to those who are willing to work."

"We'll find a legal way to do this," he says.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60685883
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 10, 2022, 11:17:17 AM


Hit by the "curators". What was it?

A T-shirt.  Picture of Zelenskyy in full battle rattle and the caption "I need ammo, not a ride."
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 11:26:00 AM
The Empire Strikes Back.
In case anyone notices.
Only things I cared about, Russian guns and ammo, Bush Sr., Clinton, Trump and Biden took care of already.


Russia hits back at Western sanctions with export bans
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60689279
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 10, 2022, 11:58:54 AM
I wonder if Russia will end up trying to go back to a soviet-esq closed system?  Non-convertible currency, closed borders, etc.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 12:00:36 PM
I wonder if Russia will end up trying to go back to a soviet-esq closed system?  Non-convertible currency, closed borders, etc.

As long as Putin or someone like him is in power I think we're headed there
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 12:03:07 PM
Democrat level gaslighting

Quote
The Russian Foreign Minister claimed during his meeting with Ukraine's foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba that Russia "did not attack Ukraine" insisting instead that troops were carrying out "special operations" in the region.

Oh, and basically the maternity unit was full of Nazis.
It could of had fighters in it but stuff like that is just looks like bad PR if you combine with the above comment.

Fury as Lavrov brands outcry over maternity unit strike which killed three as 'pathetic'
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/lavrov-outcry-over-maternity-hospital-bombing-pathetic/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 10, 2022, 12:12:39 PM
Democrat level gaslighting

Oh, and basically the maternity unit was full of Nazis.
It could of had fighters in it but stuff like that is just look like bad PR if you combine with the above comment.

Fury as Lavrov brands outcry over maternity unit strike which killed three as 'pathetic'
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/lavrov-outcry-over-maternity-hospital-bombing-pathetic/

It's like they're not even trying with their lies.  Which of course is just pissing off the western world that much more.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 10, 2022, 01:18:09 PM
While I'm sympathetic to the Ukrainian side in this, it seems a lot of the gaslighting is on a two way street. I'm hearing some "official" numbers on dead Russians that are as hard to believe as the ones coming from the ruskies.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 01:21:28 PM
While I'm sympathetic to the Ukrainian side in this, it seems a lot of the gaslighting is on a two way street. I'm hearing some "official" numbers on dead Russians that are as hard to believe as the ones coming from the ruskies.

So far from reports on Russian dead I've seen
Source
Ukraine - 12,000
US - 5,000 - 6,000
Russia - 500

Even if it's in the middle as the US one is that's a lot of dead troops for a Not The Momma Invasion that appear to have a long way to go still.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 02:24:22 PM
Apparently they can't make up their minds on which story to go with

Quote
Russia claims Ukraine staged Mariupol hospital bombing

BBC Monitoring
Maternity hospital in Mariupol pictured after it was bombed
Mariupol city councilCopyright: Mariupol city council

More from Russia's claims about the bombing of a maternity and children's hospital in Mariupol - they are now saying the incident was staged by Ukraine.

Three people - two adults and a girl - were killed and 17 were wounded in the devastating strike.

Speaking on Rossiya 24 news channel, Russian defence ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov said "absolutely no missions to hit targets on the ground by Russian aviation in the Mariupol area were carried out".

He then claimed: "The alleged airstrike that took place is a completely orchestrated provocation to maintain anti-Russian excitement among the Western audience."

But earlier today (see our post just before 11:00GMT) Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said that the hospital was a legitimate military target because it had been "taken over" by Ukrainian radicals and "all the mothers and nurses were chased out of there".


President Volodymyr Zelensky said Lavrov's claim was a lie and called the strike a war crime.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60685883
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 03:55:06 PM
Quote
The Great War
6 hours ago
On December 16 1917, Lenin demands security guarantees from the freshly proclaimed Ukrainian People’s Republic. He also accused the UPR of a “two-faced bourgeois policy” and assisting anti-revolutionary forces. The UPR refused to comply: the start of the Soviet-Ukrainian War.
https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxnWRQ0bbRyJPdqpBnU0645arhhruJrupD
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 10, 2022, 03:58:25 PM
Clean up in aisle 3

Ukraine war: Column of Russian tanks ambushed by Ukrainian forces
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60699332
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 10, 2022, 04:56:01 PM
Kamala doing her trademark chuckle in Poland when asked about Ukrainian refugees.

https://twitter.com/tomselliott/status/1501901624943464449
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10598343/Harris-dodges-question-Polands-fighter-jet-deal-insists-united-President-Duda.html

Yeah it wasn't as bad as it could have been, still awkward though, but imagine the media's reaction if that was Pence
It's not just POTUS with mental issues.

To start chuckling when such a grave situation is under discussion and people are dying by the thousands, well, there is something wrong with this woman upstairs - she's just not right in the head.

Seriously.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Boomhauer on March 10, 2022, 06:54:58 PM
Clean up in aisle 3

Ukraine war: Column of Russian tanks ambushed by Ukrainian forces
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60699332

A-10 pilots right now seeing these videos

(https://i.ibb.co/CbgyymX/49769-B26-F875-4437-BA0-C-44659-AAA1-A21.jpg)

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 10, 2022, 08:27:13 PM
What country doesn't?
Hospitals, med labs, agriculture research centers, and many colleges can be referred to as "Biological Research Facilities" as well.
The lab in Odessa is a bioweapon research lab we partnered with Ukraine in setting up. It wasn't secret it has been in the public all along. Who knew? I didn't.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 10, 2022, 11:09:41 PM
It's not just POTUS with mental issues.

To start chuckling when such a grave situation is under discussion and people are dying by the thousands, well, there is something wrong with this woman upstairs - she's just not right in the head.

Seriously.  :facepalm:
I figure it is some sort of speech crutch she learned a long time ago to cover up when she has nothing good to say or would fall into "uh, um, uh".  Probably fine as a low level state politicritter, but doesn't work at all at a national level position.   
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 10, 2022, 11:18:30 PM
The lab in Odessa is a bioweapon research lab we partnered with Ukraine in setting up. It wasn't secret it has been in the public all along. Who knew? I didn't.
The public image is nice, but the research could easily be creating new bio-weapons and new deployment techniques all because someone might do that.  And it is interesting that all this is happening in foreign countries that are not subject to US laws about gain and function among other things.  The publicly known research could all be done in the US.  No reason to put it in foreign countries.

This is what happens when the govt spends 2 trillion a year or more.  No one really knows where all the money is going.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 11, 2022, 08:31:10 AM
The public image is nice, but the research could easily be creating new bio-weapons and new deployment techniques all because someone might do that.  And it is interesting that all this is happening in foreign countries that are not subject to US laws about gain and function among other things.  The publicly known research could all be done in the US.  No reason to put it in foreign countries.

This is what happens when the govt spends 2 trillion a year or more.  No one really knows where all the money is going.
Pretty balanced overview of the subject from the infamous Dr Malone.

https://rwmalonemd.substack.com/p/ukraine-biolab-watchtower?s=r

Quote
In other words, in my opinion, this is another topic that we will never be able to get to the bottom of, and we will never be able to discern something akin to objective “truth”. Best we can hope for is some sort of approximation of truth that is sort of like a kalidescope image viewed in a hall of mirrors.

In conclusion
In my opinion, the partnership relationship between DoD/DTRA (as historically structured) and the current government of Ukraine (which has functionally become a client state of the USA) was ill advised.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 11, 2022, 08:51:19 AM
There was a (failed) movement to deplatform Professor Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago for his prescient lecture on Ukraine back in 2015. 

https://dailysceptic.org/2022/03/10/chicago-students-try-to-cancel-professor-who-predicted-ukraine-crisis/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 11, 2022, 09:03:42 AM
Are we now going to start arguing that Poland started WW-II by signing a defense agreement with France and the UK? Really?
Why would Ukraine, or any country, even feel the need to join a DEFENSE alliance if they didn't feel threaded by their neighbor? Putin had given indications ever since he came to power he wanted to get the band back together and everyone knew Ukraine would have to be target #1 or close to it for that to happen.  Just about every country bordering Russia that were formerly part of the Russian Empire and/or Soviet Union has been counting the days till when tanks started rolling their way.

Do I completely discount Russia's feelings of being surrounded, no. I think I understand that.. to a point. Russia was/is being a dick and how did anyone expect surrounding countries to react?

Blame for this

80-90% Putin
10-20% Ukraine/NATO Yes some things could have been handled differenty

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 11, 2022, 09:12:05 AM
Do you want Soviet nuclear mutants in an apocalyptic wasteland? Because this is how you get Soviet nuclear mutants in an apocalyptic wasteland.

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/11/1085427380/ukraine-nuclear-power-plant-zaporizhzhia?utm_medium=social&utm_term=nprnews&utm_campaign=npr&utm_source=facebook.com&fbclid=IwAR0bwb2iOVfXs6YPisbsawVOwHSapzZuSDj3FdcZH4X4ki9D9pqeLUXJtrA
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 11, 2022, 09:17:59 AM
Are we now going to start arguing that Poland started WW-II by signing a defense agreement with France and the UK? Really?
The defense agreements were certainly necessary to starting WWII even if they weren't the proximate cause.

Likewise, the Black Hand killed Franz Ferdinand but that wouldn't have likely resulted in tens of millions dead absent alliances and defense agreements that caused the reprisals to escalate.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 11, 2022, 09:26:18 AM
The defense agreements were certainly necessary to starting WWII even if they weren't the proximate cause.

Likewise, the Black Hand killed Franz Ferdinand but that wouldn't have likely resulted in tens of millions dead absent alliances and defense agreements that caused the reprisals to escalate.

No argument there. Defense agreements do have their bad side.
But
Hitler made it clear in his writings he wanted to maintain peace or even try to form an alliance with the UK. France on the other hand was more than likely going to be invaded anyway, Hitler had a score to settle with France and France was considered Germany's traditional enemy plus he couldn't afford to have France in his rear for when it became the SU's turn. So even if there was no Poland/France/UK defense pact invading France would have brought the UK into the war anyway so not much would have really changed. Maybe France would have had a bit more time to rearm? The historical invasion of France was a near run thing at several points so who knows what would have happened.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 11, 2022, 09:49:59 AM
Another one

Quote
Senior Russian officer killed, says Ukrainian military
Andrei Kolesnikov
Russian Eastern Military DistrictCopyright: Russian Eastern Military District
Ukraine's military says Maj-Gen Andrei Kolesnikov has been killedImage caption: Ukraine's military says Maj-Gen Andrei Kolesnikov has been killed

A high-ranking Russian officer has been killed by Ukrainian forces, according to the Ukrainian military

Maj-Gen Andrei Kolesnikov was the commander of the 29th army of Russia's eastern military district, according to Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister.

The details of his death are unknown and there has been no comment from the Russian side.

At least two other officers of the same rank have reportedly been killed since the war began two weeks ago.

Western officials have previously said the fact that such senior Russian officers have been exposing themselves to danger may be a sign of frustration that their advances have stalled.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60685883
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 11, 2022, 09:58:56 AM
Do you want Soviet nuclear mutants in an apocalyptic wasteland? Because this is how you get Soviet nuclear mutants in an apocalyptic wasteland.

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/11/1085427380/ukraine-nuclear-power-plant-zaporizhzhia?utm_medium=social&utm_term=nprnews&utm_campaign=npr&utm_source=facebook.com&fbclid=IwAR0bwb2iOVfXs6YPisbsawVOwHSapzZuSDj3FdcZH4X4ki9D9pqeLUXJtrA

Anyone here remember
Nuke them till they glow then shoot them in the dark
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 11, 2022, 10:08:13 AM
Quote
The latest from Ukraine

If you're just joining us, here are all the latest developments from Ukraine as the Russian invasion enters its 16th day:

    Ukrainian officials say they have killed Maj-Gen Andrei Kolesnikov, a senior Russian officer and commander of the 29th Army of the eastern district. The BBC cannot verify the claim and Moscow has yet to comment on the reports
    Regulators in Russia have applied to designate Meta as an "extremist organisation" after the company confirmed it will change its policies to allow for calls for violence against Russian forces
    President Vladimir Putin has told Belarusian leader Alexander Lukashenko that there have been some "positive" developments in ongoing negotiations with Ukrainian leaders
    But he also gave the go-ahead for volunteers from the Middle East to fight for Russia in Ukraine
    Elsewhere, the UK has sanctioned 386 members of the Russian state Duma who support Putin's invasion of Ukraine. The sanctions will ban those listed from travelling to the UK, accessing assets held in the country and doing business in its jurisdiction
    Meanwhile, the UK's veterans minister has urged ex-servicemen "not to engage" in the conflict following reports of several British military personnel travelling to Ukraine to Ukraine's forces
    And the EU has presented a plan to phase out the EU's dependence on Russian fossil fuels by 2027
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60685883
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 11, 2022, 11:25:30 AM
Putin being a bad guy, working to undermine US hegemony and the US engaging in terrible foreign policy, doing immoral things are not mutually exclusive.

Our government/media lying and manipulating us doesn't make Russian propaganda true.
But if we are being lied to at home and the enemy says something true, it's still true.

Sometimes the truth has great propaganda value particularly if it is framed in the worst possible light and our government is caught lying about it.

I'm looking at what is going on and I'll tell you what I see, amateur hour performance by our leadership so far, Russia taking over a country with its B team on the ground, while most of its Airforce is still on the tarmac.

Lying about being partnered with Ukraine running biological research labs was dumb. It was public knowledge and was going to get revealed sooner or later.
 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AJ Dual on March 11, 2022, 11:50:28 AM
Russia taking over a country with its B team on the ground, while most of its Airforce is still on the tarmac.

I've come to the conclusion that all the "B Team" cannon fodder, "good stuff held in reserve" thinking is wrong.

They have held back on mass artillery and rocket attacks somewhat for reasons of hoping to quickly capture Ukraine intact, and international opinion, but that's not the same thing. Their performance is really that bad. So much so it has people coming up with theories about inferior troops and units being used first for various reasons. I think it's because in high-trust Western societies we just can't conceive of how much graft and ineptitude can exist. Plus people think "BIG RUSSIA" and forget that they've got a GDP smaller than California, Texas, and Italy. And they're now 30 years out from a Soviet closed command economy that could mitigate defense production somewhat (always overestimated intentionally by the West even then), and have to pay for their military equipment within something more resembling a real-world economy.

What "A Team" stuff Russia does have is limited. Pilot air time and airworthiness of even their good stuff is a fraction of Western Air Forces. Someone in the U.S. Air National Guard gets as much flight time as a front line Russian unit does. Maybe more. And what they do have of newer good stuff, they can't afford to replace it if lost in combat. Further, I suspect that some good stuff is positioned internally in Russia as a hedge against a coup or regime change.

Another example, Russian performance in Syria can be defined as "adequate" at best, and that's with hand picked equipment and men skimmed off the top of several different units and brought together in their expeditionary force.

This is what Russia has got. And calling it "B Team" is generous. They tried for a more Western style rapid strike and decapitate maneuver early on in the war, where the VDV Airborne, and Spetsnaz troops had taken the Antonov airport near Kiev, and it failed horribly. They were slaughtered by Ukrainian defenders as they retook the airfield. They're using Baofeng commercial walkie-talkies on clear analog channels for comms.

Conscripts on one year terms is further hampering them greatly. One can imagine they don't get nearly the training their Western counterparts do, and if they did, their term would be up almost as it was complete. And with the fraud, graft, and incompetence, I suspect much of that training only exists on paper, and never actually happened.

Honestly, in a way this is more dangerous, because the more third-world Russia's performance looks, the more clear it's becoming they're a borderline failed petro-state with nukes. One could hope that their nuclear forces suffer from many of the same deficiencies their conventional forces do, but if even a few hundred work, and they use them because Putin feels like he's got nothing left to lose, it'll be the worst day the World has seen since World War II, probably worse.

Lying about being partnered with Ukraine running biological research labs was dumb. It was public knowledge and was going to get revealed sooner or later.

This is definitely a WTF head-scratcher for sure. I'm trying to figure out what the impetus for this even was. Research they couldn't do in the US? Just unaccountable slush-fund money finding weird perverse uses?

I'm definitely looking at this with open eyes, and the US and Ukraine are definitely far from being pure as driven snow here. But in the sense that multiple things can be true at once, I still think this is largely naked aggression on the part of Russia, and Putin's desires to empire-build.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 11, 2022, 12:18:42 PM
Great analysis.

It is an assumption on my part that there is a significant A team available. If that is their best, then they are a bit of a paper tiger if not for the nukes.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 11, 2022, 12:29:02 PM
^^^Now I wonder about how realistic was the threat from the Warsaw Pact during the Cold War.  Tanks rushing through the Fulda Gap, etc.  I don't recall a lot of opinion back then about the Soviets being a paper tiger.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 11, 2022, 12:35:28 PM
I think you are probably right about the corruption.  That is going to undermine what they have to the point that only a percentage is combat capable and stockpiles of supplies either won't exist or won't be in good condition. 

Looking at the Dr. Malone post from Ron above, it may certainly be that there is no bio-weapons development going on in the Ukraine, but our bureaucracy's first reaction is to bury and hide the information instead of being open.  I can easily see them making it look worse than it is through fear and incompetence. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 11, 2022, 12:44:39 PM
^^^Now I wonder about how realistic was the threat from the Warsaw Pact during the Cold War.  Tanks rushing through the Fulda Gap, etc.  I don't recall a lot of opinion back then about the Soviets being a paper tiger.
Given the tech at the time, I think it probably wasn't something to underestimate.  I figure the army and tech we developed by the 1980's could handle it, but not sure about before that.  It seems to me that Soviet tanks work as far as being an armored gun platform on tracks.  That was enough back in the 1960's.  In the 2000's, the sophistication of air attack, indirect fire, and anti-tank weapons has increased quite a bit. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 11, 2022, 12:54:55 PM
Putin is doing so good he is bringing 16,000 merc's in from the middle east.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 11, 2022, 01:01:44 PM
The Admin is briefing TikTok.

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/03/11/biden-staffer-explains-why-wh-has-been-briefing-tiktok-stars-about-war-in-ukraine/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 11, 2022, 01:09:22 PM
The information warfare piece has been brutal. This is one of few places I would dare express any concerns about our policy.

They're working on getting everybody worked up into a lather and ready to go to war. It's a little disturbing to me to say the least.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 11, 2022, 01:37:25 PM
Given the tech at the time, I think it probably wasn't something to underestimate.  I figure the army and tech we developed by the 1980's could handle it, but not sure about before that.  It seems to me that Soviet tanks work as far as being an armored gun platform on tracks.  That was enough back in the 1960's.  In the 2000's, the sophistication of air attack, indirect fire, and anti-tank weapons has increased quite a bit.

I have a deceased friend who was a US Army armor officer in West Germany back in the late 70's. He was of the opinion that a massive Soviet attack on western Europe back then would have gone tactical nuclear in short order to stop them due to the disparity in conventional arms between the Soviets and NATO.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 11, 2022, 01:46:25 PM
The information warfare piece has been brutal. This is one of few places I would dare express any concerns about our policy.
Very much so.

I will give Biden credit early on, though.  He called Putin out at each of his moves and from what I can see prevented Putin from giving even a thin pretext for his invasion.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 11, 2022, 02:33:21 PM
Bets on what happens first

A) Kyiv falls
B) Russian runs out of generals
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 11, 2022, 02:38:29 PM
^^^Now I wonder about how realistic was the threat from the Warsaw Pact during the Cold War.  Tanks rushing through the Fulda Gap, etc.  I don't recall a lot of opinion back then about the Soviets being a paper tiger.

Safe to say the majority of WP tanks were better maintained back then compared to 2022 Russia and there was far more of them as well.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 11, 2022, 03:05:38 PM
I have a deceased friend who was a US Army armor officer in West Germany back in the late 70's. He was of the opinion that a massive Soviet attack on western Europe back then would have gone tactical nuclear in short order to stop them due to the disparity in conventional arms between the Soviets and NATO.

Safe to say the majority of WP tanks were better maintained back then compared to 2022 Russia and there was far more of them as well.

Quantity is its own quality. During the 70's and 80's the Red Army had almost 5.5 million active soldiers.  In East Germany alone they had two Motor Rifle Divisions and a Tank Division.  Motor Rifles had something like 2500 combat vehicles and the 10th Guards Tank division had almost 1000 tanks.  Plus artillery support.  That is what was expected to come through Fulda.

The current Red Army doesn't have the numbers to cover for their lack of training and limited modern equipment.


I would also caution you to judge too harshly.  Lots of Americans think of the US military as what a "normal" military is supposed to be.  We were the best in the world before we spent 20 years practicing and field testing ideas.  No one else's military works like ours, warts and all.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 11, 2022, 03:33:02 PM
Putin is doing so good he is bringing 16,000 merc's in from the middle east.


Either things are going so bad they need help
or
They're experienced in urban warfare after years of nasty urban warfare in Syria.
or
The Russians know going into Kyvi is going to be a slaughter and they're considered expendable. Less crying Russian mothers
or
Many Middle Easterners have often shown zero reluctance in conducting mass slaughters down to the last woman and child. It wasn't us it was those uncivilized people from the ME
or
All the above
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 11, 2022, 03:36:39 PM
It's not just POTUS with mental issues.

To start chuckling when such a grave situation is under discussion and people are dying by the thousands, well, there is something wrong with this woman upstairs - she's just not right in the head.

Seriously.  :facepalm:

Racist!

Quote
    The View's Sunny Hostin claims any criticism of Kamala Harris's inappropriate laughter when discussing Ukrainian refugees in Poland is "based in racism" and "that’s the truth of it."
    "What it is they constantly question the qualifications of black women," she said. pic.twitter.com/IyqePOLZOA

    — Nicholas Fondacaro (@NickFondacaro) March 11, 2022
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/11/the-views-sunny-hostin-says-criticism-of-kamala-harris-inappropriate-cackling-habit-is-obviously-based-in-racism-video/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 11, 2022, 05:00:31 PM
Ukraine war: Fact-checking Russia's biological weapons claims
https://www.bbc.com/news/60711705

Quote
Ukraine has dozens of public health laboratories that work to research and mitigate the threats of dangerous diseases.

Some of these labs receive financial and other support from the US, the European Union and the World Health Organization (WHO) - as is the case in many other countries.
Quote
Despite Russian claims that these are "secret" labs, details of US involvement can be found on the US embassy's website.
Quote
Additionally, the US set up its "Biological Threat Reduction Program" in the 1990s following the fall of the Soviet Union to reduce the risk from biological weapons that had been left behind in countries including Ukraine.

Under this programme certain labs receive funding from the US for modernisation and equipment, but are managed locally, not by the US.
Quote
"There are no indications that Ukrainian labs have been involved in any nefarious activity, or any research or development in contravention of the Biological Weapons Convention," says Filippa Lentzos, a biosecurity expert at King's College London.

She adds that pathogens stored at biological labs are simply bacteria and viruses, and "not blueprints or components of biological weapons".

"The reason they are kept in secure facilities is for bio-safety, so people don't make themselves sick by getting access to them."

Apparently the UN wasn't buying Russia's claims either today.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 11, 2022, 05:56:48 PM
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/FB_IMG_1647039189898_RS.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 11, 2022, 10:14:02 PM
Ukrainians develop drone that drops Molotov cocktails
https://nypost.com/2022/03/10/ukrainians-develop-drone-that-drops-molotov-cocktails/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: 230RN on March 12, 2022, 07:13:02 AM
No particular reason....

https://youtu.be/jIuuJRbYEiU (4:03)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 12, 2022, 07:45:31 AM
In a live feed last night you could see quite a few flashes from explosions around Kyiv. Couldn't hep thinking with every flash people are dying.  :'(
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 12, 2022, 09:01:28 AM
Tank drag racing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGF-hlcHzbI

the reason I posted it here is because of this comment
Quote
Challenger, Leclerc and T-90 were supposed to race, but Vladimir ran out of fuel and then some rude Ukrainian peasant stole it!
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on March 12, 2022, 10:03:45 AM
Tank drag racing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGF-hlcHzbI

the reason I posted it here is because of this comment

I really liked this comment:

"Challenger does seem to be an improvement on the Chieftain from my time, the Chieftain's speed was dependent on the speed of the vehicle towing it."
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 12, 2022, 10:58:39 AM
Tank drag racing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGF-hlcHzbI

the reason I posted it here is because of this comment
It would have been funnier if someone had thought to have a parachute pop out the back of each tank at the end of the drag race . . .
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 12, 2022, 11:48:50 AM
Ukraine claiming 500-600 Russian soldiers surrendered Friday
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 12, 2022, 12:01:20 PM
Russia threatens to leave American astronaut behind on the ISS:

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6300389605001#sp=show-clips
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 12, 2022, 12:05:54 PM
Russia threatens to leave American astronaut behind on the ISS:

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6300389605001#sp=show-clips

Elon: I got this
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 12, 2022, 12:09:34 PM
Is Russia going to slime Ukraine?

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/intelligence-points-to-heightened-risk-of-russian-chemical-attack-in-ukraine-officials-say/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 12, 2022, 06:23:23 PM
Gotta give Ukraine some honesty points on this one

Quote
Victims of attack weren't using evacuation corridor - Ukraine

Earlier we reported a Ukrainian allegation that Russian troops had fired on a convoy of women and children leaving a village north-west of Kyiv on Friday, killing seven people.

Ukraine's intelligence service said the incident had happened on an agreed evacuation corridor from Peremoha.

However Ukrainian government officials have now said the victims were not using an agreed evacuation corridor as previously stated.

There was no independent verification of the attack and no immediate comment from Moscow.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60717902
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 12, 2022, 08:35:49 PM
Biden admin and his pet media are still beating the war drums and pushing for US intervention.
How soon do you think it will be before we're in a shooting war with Russia?
How soon do you think it will be before China moves on Taiwan?
I'm at the point where I think it is inevitable.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 12, 2022, 08:55:47 PM
I'm at the point where I think it is inevitable.

We've also got this breaking news:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/8/rockets-fired-at-us-embassy-in-iraq-after-series-of-attacks

Twitchy is also reporting it, but none of the MSM are as of yet. Looks like chumming it up with Iran again is working out just peaches though.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on March 12, 2022, 09:18:21 PM
We've also got this breaking news:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/8/rockets-fired-at-us-embassy-in-iraq-after-series-of-attacks

Twitchy is also reporting it, but none of the MSM are as of yet. Looks like chumming it up with Iran again is working out just peaches though.

Link is old news but I saw the new one in a ukraine reddit comment. Why do people pay network TV millions?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 12, 2022, 09:19:25 PM
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/31fe0g02kyl81.webp)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 12, 2022, 09:20:48 PM
Biden admin and his pet media are still beating the war drums and pushing for US intervention.
How soon do you think it will be before we're in a shooting war with Russia?
How soon do you think it will be before China moves on Taiwan?
I'm at the point where I think it is inevitable.

I don't know.  I was surprised that the US backed away from the polish jets deal, at least publicly.  Has me wondering if the US is trying to limit involvement.  I could see the US administration wanting to keep this in the news to distract from domestic problems, but not really wanting to engage with a shooting war with the Russians.

If Russia starts using chemical weapons, would that push the west into the conflict?  Also, there seems to be some imaginary line between a country being a belligerent or not, as if the cargo jets full of weapons and money from the west don't make us involved already.

But I was wrong about Russia invading the Ukraine from the get go, so ehh?  I clearly don't know.   =)

If China makes a play for Taiwan, I could see them further strengthening ties with Russia as the western world condemns it.  And there's our axis power - China the economic giant, and Russia threatening nuclear annihilation.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 12, 2022, 09:25:38 PM
Russian stock market closed all week
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on March 12, 2022, 09:42:32 PM
https://funker530.com/video/breaking-iranian-cruise-missiles-just-struck-us-consulate-in-erbil/ (https://funker530.com/video/breaking-iranian-cruise-missiles-just-struck-us-consulate-in-erbil/)

Funker530 posted a video of the Iranian rockets.




Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 12, 2022, 09:43:35 PM
Link is old news but I saw the new one in a ukraine reddit comment. Why do people pay network TV millions?

Oh - sorry. This is from today:

https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/03/12/report-multiple-long-range-ballistic-missiles-target-us-consulate-in-erbil-iraq/

Also the Epoch Times is on it, but premium content:

https://www.theepochtimes.com/at-least-5-rockets-hit-iraqs-erbil-near-us-embassy-reports_4333836.html

Not even Fox News is reporting it yet.

Epoch Times says they were near the Embassy, rather than directed to it.

Quote
At least 12 missiles landed on targets in northern Iraq, hitting an area near a U.S. Consulate in the city of Erbil in the early hours of Sunday, the state news agency quoted the Directorate General of Counter Terrorism in Kurdistan as saying.

“Several missiles fell on the city of Erbil,” said governor Omid Khoshnaw, the Iraqi News Agency (INA) also reported. Erbil is the capital city of the autonomous Kurdistan region of Iraq.

“No victims or casualties after Erbil blasts,” Saman Barzanji, health minister in Iraq’s Kurdistan Province, was cited as saying.

A spokesman for the Kurdish regional government said there were no casualties. A U.S. State Department spokesperson called it an “outrageous attack” but said no Americans were hurt and there was no damage to U.S. government facilities in Erbil.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 13, 2022, 11:43:35 AM
Video allegedly showing French volunteer fighting for Ukraine and seized Russian armored vehicle
https://twitter.com/SputnikATO/status/1502965429706313730
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 13, 2022, 11:46:40 AM
Russia bombing or more likely shooting missiles at targets near the Polish border around Lviv last night.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 13, 2022, 12:07:32 PM
Rumors of progress in the peace talks
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 13, 2022, 12:49:39 PM
Mark Felton looks at Putin

Vladimir Putin - KGB Agent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2_EFJLWA6o
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 13, 2022, 01:08:01 PM
'Dear Russians, your media is being censored. The Kremlin is lying.'

https://www.dailydot.com/debug/anonymous-hackers-text-russia-ukraine-war/


(I suspect most Russians already know this)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 13, 2022, 01:10:06 PM
Melitopol has a new mayor, since the last one was allegedly kidnapped by the Russians:

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-humanitarian-aid-for-besieged-city-of-mariupol-will-arrive-this-afternoon-zelenskyy-says-12564860
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 13, 2022, 03:28:41 PM
Our dumbass admin needs to stop talking to the press about what we are doing for points with the media and just get stuff done. We could have had the jets in there weeks ago if people would just shut up.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: bedlamite on March 13, 2022, 03:45:10 PM
Our dumbass admin needs to stop talking to the press about what we are doing for points with the media and just get stuff done. We could have had the jets in there weeks ago if people would just shut up.

You're missing the point. The virtue signaling is more important than actually doing anything.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 13, 2022, 04:21:25 PM
You're missing the point. The virtue signaling is more important than actually doing anything.

#WECARE
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 13, 2022, 04:50:44 PM
The two conspiracy bro's at work have theories:


Con-bro #1: NATO is establishing one-world government.

Volodymyr and Vladimir are working together to destroy Ukraine.

Zelensky is besties with Justin Trudeau - so there!


Con-bro #2:  They're going after Putin because he's not down with the Great Reset.

Also, there's no war going on in Ukraine.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 13, 2022, 04:52:25 PM
Things must not be going well if this is to be believed

US officials say Russia has asked China for military help in Ukraine
https://www.ft.com/content/30850470-8c8c-4b53-aa39-01497064a7b7
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 13, 2022, 04:55:06 PM
The two conspiracy bro's at work have theories:


Con-bro #1: NATO is establishing one-world government.

Volodymyr and Vladimir are working together to destroy Ukraine.

Zelensky is besties with Justin Trudeau - so there!


Con-bro #2:  They're going after Putin because he's not down with the Great Reset.

Also, there's no war going on in Ukraine.

Idiocracy was a documentary and it's only gotten worse since
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 13, 2022, 05:17:32 PM
Quote
Moscow asking Beijing for military help - reports
Chinese President Xi Jinping
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images
China's Xi Jinping has not condemned Russia's invasion of UkraineImage caption: China's Xi Jinping has not condemned Russia's invasion of Ukraine

Russia is asking China for both military and economic assistance, according to reports in the Financial Times and New York Times newspapers.

Moscow wants Beijing to provide military supplies to use in Ukraine, the FT says.

Citing unnamed US officials, the FT reported that Russia had been requesting Chinese equipment since the start of the invasion. The officials declined to specify what kind of equipment Russia is seeking.

The report added that there were indications that China may be preparing to help.

A separate report in the New York Times - again citing US officials - alleges Russia is also asking for economic assistance to mitigate the impact of sanctions.

China has so far sought to portray itself as neutral in the Russia-Ukraine conflict and has not condemned the invasion.

On Monday US National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan is expected to hold talks with a top Chinese foreign policy official, Yang Jiechi, in Rome.

Speaking to NBC on Sunday, Sullivan said the US would "ensure that China nor anyone else" can compensate Russia for its economic losses.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60717902

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 13, 2022, 05:26:56 PM
I stumbled across an interesting view of what's motivating Putin:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-putin-bombs-the-very-same-russian-speaking-people-he-claims-to-liberate/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 14, 2022, 10:05:23 AM
The manly hero of Ukraine, Zelensky, lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQxsWHvbuHI&t



Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 14, 2022, 10:10:28 AM
China is saying that the reports of Russia asking China for help are not truth. You know, because China always tells the truth.
Note: I myself actually doubt Russia did but who knows at this point.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 14, 2022, 10:12:43 AM
The manly hero of Ukraine, Zelensky, lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQxsWHvbuHI&t

He's got the California vote.

Yeah that's been going around the internet. He was a bit of an oddball comedian after all.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 14, 2022, 11:07:00 AM
More about the Ukrainian Nazi's from the leftist Salon. Readers Digest version: yes, but reasons...

https://www.salon.com/2022/03/10/are-there-really-neo-nazis-fighting-for-ukraine-well-yes--but-its-a-long-story/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 14, 2022, 11:44:00 AM
Quote
    I hereby challenge
    Владимир Путин
    to single combat

    Stakes are Україна

    — Elon Musk (@elonmusk) March 14, 2022
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/14/elon-musk-officially-challenges-vladimir-putin-to-a-fight-winner-gets-ukraine/

Quote
Elon Musk challenges Putin to a duel

In a bizarre turn of events, US tech billionaire Elon Musk appears to have challenged Russian president Vladimir Putin to a one-on-one fight, suggesting that the winner decide the fate of Ukraine.

Ukrainian politicians so far have welcomed the offer, which may have been made tongue-in-cheek. Kyiv's mayor Vitali Klitschko, himself a former boxer, replied with three strong arm emojis.

The Russian president is yet to respond. Musk has been a vocal supporter of Ukraine throughout the invasion.

Earlier this month one of the companies owned by the California-based tech entrepreneur, Starlink, supplied Ukraine with a number of satellite dishes intended to protect internet access in the country.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60717902
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 14, 2022, 11:52:36 AM
China is saying that the reports of Russia asking China for help are not truth. You know, because China always tells the truth.
Note: I myself actually doubt Russia did but who knows at this point.
Including what they say about social wellness programs for Uighurs, economic freedom in Hong Kong, and disease-ridden pangolins in wet markets?  :facepalm:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 14, 2022, 01:40:58 PM
WANT:

https://funker530.com/video/ukrainians-mount-50-cal-machine-gun-to-bmw-drop-top/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 14, 2022, 01:52:34 PM
WANT:

https://funker530.com/video/ukrainians-mount-50-cal-machine-gun-to-bmw-drop-top/

Adapt. Improvise. Overcome!
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 14, 2022, 03:31:06 PM
Psaki came on a live feed

Comment: Little Red Lying Hood  :rofl:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 14, 2022, 07:53:57 PM
CNN reporter keeping it classy

Quote
    A Fox News reporter has been injured in Kyiv. If he was shot by the Russians, is that a case of friendly fire?
    — Charles Jaco (@charlesjaco1) March 14, 2022
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 14, 2022, 07:56:31 PM
Russians slowly making progress

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/Screenshot_2022-03-14_195456.png)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 14, 2022, 08:34:34 PM
CNN reporter keeping it classy


Yeah, Jaco is known for being a real classy customer. He also had the honor of being the guy that recorded Todd Akin saying some unremarkable remarks that people blew out of proportion.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 14, 2022, 09:17:16 PM
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/Screenshot_2022-03-14_211455.png)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 14, 2022, 09:18:20 PM
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/Screenshot_2022-03-14_211547.png)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 14, 2022, 09:40:53 PM
Keith Olbermann says there’s a case for Tucker Carlson and Tulsi Gabbard to be detained by the military
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/03/14/keith-olbermann-says-theres-a-case-for-tucker-carlson-and-tulsi-gabbard-to-be-detained-by-the-military/

Ana Navarro and her View cohosts think DOJ needs to go after Tucker Carlson and Tulsi Gabbard as foreign agents of Putin [video]
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/14/ana-navarro-and-her-view-cohosts-think-doj-needs-to-go-after-tucker-carlson-and-tulsi-gabbard-as-foreign-agents-of-putin-video/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 14, 2022, 09:42:36 PM
There is a case for Keith Olbermann to be detained on a 5150.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 14, 2022, 09:43:33 PM
5150?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 14, 2022, 09:44:25 PM
https://policecodes.net/scanner/5150
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 14, 2022, 09:47:10 PM
My dad was a police officer. I grew up with the 10- codes
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 14, 2022, 10:11:54 PM
Quote
Demetri・FT
@Dimi
#NewChinaRussiaScoop – US told allies that Russia requested 5 types of military gear from China, including #SurfaceToAirMissiles. Also #drones, armored vehicles, logistics vehicles & intelligence-related equipment. US did not provide underlying intelligence in cables to allies.
https://twitter.com/Dimi/status/1503484449987743746


Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 14, 2022, 11:03:49 PM
Keith Olbermann says there’s a case for Tucker Carlson and Tulsi Gabbard to be detained by the military
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/03/14/keith-olbermann-says-theres-a-case-for-tucker-carlson-and-tulsi-gabbard-to-be-detained-by-the-military/

Ana Navarro and her View cohosts think DOJ needs to go after Tucker Carlson and Tulsi Gabbard as foreign agents of Putin [video]
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/14/ana-navarro-and-her-view-cohosts-think-doj-needs-to-go-after-tucker-carlson-and-tulsi-gabbard-as-foreign-agents-of-putin-video/
If Trump was still in, he would be saying the exact opposite. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 14, 2022, 11:10:16 PM
https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 14, 2022, 11:30:27 PM
https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

Any reason that started centered on Lexington Ky?
I mean I'm not complaining, lot of snobs
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 14, 2022, 11:39:17 PM
Any reason that started centered on Lexington Ky?
I mean I'm not complaining, lot of snobs

Hmm ... when I clicked on the link, the map was centered on Lubbock TX.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 15, 2022, 12:32:37 AM
Looks like it tries to IP geolocate you when you follow it.  Mine was centered in east Phoenix.  Not 100% accurate and probably fooled by a firewall if you're running one when you open it.  But close enough for horseshoes and nuclear missile targeting.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 15, 2022, 08:13:01 AM
Yeah, it seems to get sorta close to you, then marks the largest city near you. It put me in Boise. When I have VPN off, the programs that use my location usually put me on the microwave tower my fixed wireless antenna is pointed at, in a small town in Oregon.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 08:31:40 AM
Well I detonated a 1Mt over Lexington and 104k people were killed outright with another 100k+ injured .
Did the same for Louisville, over 2x larger than Lex, and only 4k people died. 9 (no k) injured.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 08:48:22 AM
Russian troops slowly encircling Kyiv. Slowly grinding down the Ukrainians.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 08:49:35 AM
And now this

Ballsy

Quote
Disbelief over European leaders' trip to Kyiv by train

Rob Cameron

BBC Prague Correspondent
Czech Prime Minister Petr Fiala (right) and his Polish counterpart Mateusz Morawiecki (left)
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images
The Czech PM (right), his Polish counterpart (left) and the Slovenia PM are heading to Kyiv todayImage caption: The Czech PM (right), his Polish counterpart (left) and the Slovenia PM are heading to Kyiv today

When the Czech prime minister Petr Fiala tweeted he and his Polish and Slovenian counterparts were on their way to Kyiv the initial reaction was - how?

Experts said helicopter or plane would be out of the question. The car journey from the Polish border to Kyiv is over seven hours, and also fraught with danger.

So there was disbelief when it emerged the three would travel to the Ukrainian capital by train - a seven hour journey in peacetime.

Fiala said they had informed EU colleagues last week, and would be travelling as an official European Council delegation.

But an EU official told the BBC the visit had "no formal mandate" from the council, and Brussels had only been notified it was going ahead last night.

The EU recognised the need to show full support to Ukraine, but President Charles Michel had pointed to the "security risks" of the trip.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60746557
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 08:52:03 AM
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2022/3/15/ede1b434-6a72-4ecb-b083-3098822cf4f3.png)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 10:01:24 AM
Belarus is saying a missile fired from Ukraine entered the country. Could be pure propaganda  but I also wouldn't put it pass Putin to fire some missiles toward Belarus from Ukraine to try to trigger getting them activity involved. I seriously don't see what the Ukrainians would hope to gain by firing a single missile. into Belarus.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 15, 2022, 10:02:08 AM
Good read, a little something for everyone.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/18329/russia-putin-ukraine-invasion
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 10:28:14 AM
Quote
What's been happening so far today?

If you're just joining our coverage, here are the latest developments on day 20 of the Russian invasion of Ukraine:

    Kyiv's mayor says the capital is entering a "dangerous moment" and has announced a continuous curfew from tonight until Thursday. Authorities say four people were killed this morning in fresh attacks on the city
    Peace talks between Kyiv and Moscow continue today, with Ukraine warning that Russia is likely to renew its offensive if there's no agreement
    The UK is sanctioning 370 Russians as well imposing new trade restrictions on luxury Russian goods and vodka
    The EU has announced a fourth round of sanctions, this time targeting Moscow's ability to finance the invasion
    The Polish, Czech, and Slovenian prime ministers are travelling overland to Kyiv by train, where they plan to meet with President Volodymyr Zelensky
    In Russia, the journalist who protested against the war on a live TV news bulletin is currently on trial in a Moscow court
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60746557
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 15, 2022, 10:50:53 AM
Man, I sure hope no one get's trigger happy and caps a NATO member Prime Minister..........
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 15, 2022, 10:52:54 AM
Man, I sure hope no one get's trigger happy and caps a NATO member Prime Minister..........

So many WW1/WW2 precursor similarities right now.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 15, 2022, 11:15:49 AM
The west needs an ironclad reason to officially join the fray. The media has done a good job of getting everyone all worked up, all that's missing is the "final straw" justifying direct engagement.

Ukraine is lost for all practical purposes unless the west jumps into the battle with air superiority and boots on the ground.

For me, China is the wild card here.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 15, 2022, 11:28:08 AM
Remember The Maine!
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on March 15, 2022, 12:21:42 PM
The west needs an ironclad reason to officially join the fray. The media has done a good job of getting everyone all worked up, all that's missing is the "final straw" justifying direct engagement.

Ukraine is lost for all practical purposes unless the west jumps into the battle with air superiority and boots on the ground.

For me, China is the wild card here.



That is a statement I can’t cogently argue against.

As to why “the west” would want to officially join the fray, *expletive deleted*ed if I know.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 15, 2022, 12:29:34 PM
The media has done a good job of getting everyone all worked up, all that's missing is the "final straw" justifying direct engagement.

I continue to be amazed as the MSM, celebrities, and all the usual progressive contingent have morphed into major warmongers. It's the modern incarnation of "the red menace". I mean, they want Tulsi Gabbard disappeared to a black site for "treason".
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 12:31:36 PM
I continue to be amazed as the MSM, celebrities, and all the usual progressive contingent have morphed into major warmongers. It's the modern incarnation of "the red threat". I mean, they want Tulsi Gabbard disappeared to a black site for "treason".

Because they're still fully vested in the Putin = Trump narrative. The name may have changed but it's still a case of raging TDS
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: kgbsquirrel on March 15, 2022, 12:46:12 PM
I continue to be amazed as the MSM, celebrities, and all the usual progressive contingent have morphed into major warmongers. It's the modern incarnation of "the red menace". I mean, they want Tulsi Gabbard disappeared to a black site for "treason".

We've just witnessed the Eastasia/Eurasia peace/war flip by the Ministry of Truth in real time.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 12:49:05 PM
Russian rep at the UN putting Paski to shame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRxVpfttsz4
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 12:52:41 PM
In a nutshell 100% the civilian shelling is the Ukrainians shelling themselves to make Russia look bad. Russia doesn't do that sort of thing.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Cliffh on March 15, 2022, 01:16:10 PM
https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

It was centered over NYC when I started it.  I live in TX. 

There are some advantages to having satellite internet; that's the kind of response I get on a lot of sites that are trying to "locate" me.   =)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 01:17:56 PM
It was centered over NYC when I started it.  I live in TX. 

There are some advantages to having satellite internet; that's the kind of response I get on a lot of sites that are trying to "locate" me.   =)

Well it failed badly in that regard if it thinks I'm in Lexington
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on March 15, 2022, 01:45:25 PM
https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

I dropped the biggest bomb Russian supposedly has over MSP and I'm still safe in northern Iowa.

I guess the question is if it really happened, how receptive will the rural folks be towards the survivors from the urban areas.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 02:45:16 PM
Fox camera was killed and of course A CNN reporter decides to keep it "classy"

Quote
    What a tragedy. A cameraman died covering the war for a TV network that airs a pro-Putin propagandist as its top-rated primetime host. https://t.co/zKHXRciMYu

    — Susan Glasser (@sbg1) March 15, 2022
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 02:56:09 PM
Brandon Herrera

The WEIRD Guns Being Used In Ukraine Right Now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vvhrnMg7QE

Mosin at 04:25
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 15, 2022, 03:01:12 PM
I seem to be lucky on the bombs. I was going to pretty extreme settings on fallout and wind and still couldn't get any fallout where I am from any  major cities. I doubt they'd drop one on Boise, but even if they did, the wind heads in the opposite direction.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 03:12:53 PM
Yes there is something wrong with these people

Quote
    What a tragedy. A cameraman died covering the war for a TV network that airs a pro-Putin propagandist as its top-rated primetime host. https://t.co/zKHXRciMYu

    — Susan Glasser (@sbg1) March 15, 2022

Quote
    I was honestly surprised they even had someone covering the war.

    — Dr. V is a She (@kayfinleyrose) March 15, 2022

Quote
    He died doing what they love to ignore: actual news.

    — Baker (@TheRyanBaker) March 15, 20
22
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 15, 2022, 04:24:23 PM
Drunk as a skunk:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1503556754168242186
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 04:29:42 PM
Drunk as a skunk:


She's like that when she's sober
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on March 15, 2022, 04:30:41 PM
She's like that when she's sober

Yeah, that wasn’t even THAT bad, for her.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 15, 2022, 04:31:58 PM
Didn't even mention birdbaths.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 15, 2022, 06:45:46 PM
Even a 100 MT airbursting over Seattle would just barely reach me with severe thermal effects 45 miles north of Seattle.  However, since I am just seven miles from the Jim Creek Naval Radio Station, the primary West Coast ELF transmitter for the submarines, I will go up when Jim Creek does.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 15, 2022, 06:51:15 PM
https://interestingengineering.com/germany-buy-f-35-jets?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Article&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=Mar15&fbclid=IwAR3XkLxb_qVfmzV60Gh68fDDrzn28OQGTcXk4j_uxm3fUXWMauiyaJVjh7k

The Luftwaffe is buying 35 F-35 jets in large part due to the ability to carry gravity nuclear bombs.  Recent events have prompted Germany to move this up the priority ladder.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 15, 2022, 07:02:37 PM
https://interestingengineering.com/germany-buy-f-35-jets?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Article&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=Mar15&fbclid=IwAR3XkLxb_qVfmzV60Gh68fDDrzn28OQGTcXk4j_uxm3fUXWMauiyaJVjh7k

The Luftwaffe is buying 35 F-35 jets in large part due to the ability to carry gravity nuclear bombs.  Recent events have prompted Germany to move this up the priority ladder.

My gut reaction to this was:  Germany has nuclear weapons?!?  So I looked it up, and Germany does not have nukes of their own.  But they have "access" to a small number of B-61 nuclear bombs that technically belong to the US.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on March 15, 2022, 07:05:07 PM
I’m hearing Boeing is looking to hire 250 engineers to replace the ones from Moscow and Kiev.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 15, 2022, 07:15:02 PM

The Luftwaffe is buying 35 F-35 jets in large part due to the ability to carry gravity nuclear bombs.  Recent events have prompted Germany to move this up the priority ladder.

Interesting, My one cousin's boyfriend retired from the Luftwaffe last year, where he was a warplane mechanic. When he was visiting me a few years ago, he told me that they absolutely loathed the F-35s that they had for I guess evaluation. They would have loved them some F-22s.

I guess maybe the next gen Eurofighter delays is one of the things that made them decide this is the better option.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 07:48:49 PM
Forgotten Weapons

Ukrainian Adaptation of PKTs to Infantry Use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BZEu6cOFJs
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 08:11:49 PM
Russian lawmaker demands return of Alaska, California fort and reparations amid U.S.-led sanctions
https://www.foxnews.com/us/russia-alaska-california-fort-reparations-sanctions
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 08:20:56 PM
Reports another Russian general bites the dust
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 09:32:45 PM
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/FMjH-7VXoAoP7-3.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 09:39:19 PM
In the comments

"Russian spaceship, go... fuel yourself"
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 15, 2022, 09:57:24 PM
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/FMjH-7VXoAoP7-3.jpg)

Ariane 5, go home.  You're drunk.

That platform flew 4 times in 2020, 4 times in 2021, and has 5 on manifest for 2022, none flown yet.

Soyuz did 15 launches in 2020, 22 launches in 2021, and has flown 3 so far for 2022.

F9 can comment, but Ariane5 is not a peer to either F9 or Soyuz.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on March 15, 2022, 09:59:06 PM
Russian lawmaker demands return of Alaska, California fort and reparations amid U.S.-led sanctions
https://www.foxnews.com/us/russia-alaska-california-fort-reparations-sanctions

:rofl:

They might not be as much the bad guy as made out in the media (or at least the Ukrainians might be less of the good guy) but they did invade a sovereign nation.  The notion they should get all that back plus reparations over sanctions is beyond laughable.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 15, 2022, 09:59:42 PM
Ariane 5, go home.  You're drunk.

That platform flew 4 times in 2020, 4 times in 2021, and has 5 on manifest for 2022, none flown yet.

Soyuz did 15 launches in 2020, 22 launches in 2021, and has flown 3 so far for 2022.

F9 can comment, but Ariane5 is not a peer to either F9 or Soyuz.

I wasn't going to nitpick it. Sometimes it's best to roll with the joke
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 16, 2022, 02:06:40 AM
Yes there is something wrong with these people
22

I haven't seen any Big Media coverage of the war, but would I be correct in surmising the Left is also more kind to Russia than to right-leaning Americans and Fox News personnel, as per usual? I'm guessing they don't say such things about Russian soldiers that get killed.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Fly320s on March 16, 2022, 06:06:39 AM
I haven't seen any Big Media coverage of the war, but would I be correct in surmising the Left is also more kind to Russia than to right-leaning Americans and Fox News personnel, as per usual? I'm guessing they don't say such things about Russian soldiers that get killed.

You would be mistaken.

In a strange turn of events, the left hates Russia and accuses the right of being pro-Russia.  That is all based on the "fact" that Putin and Trump are best friends.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 08:23:10 AM
Quote
Ukraine rejects Russian offer of 'Austrian style' neutrality

An advisor to Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky has said that a Russian proposal that Ukraine adopts an Austrian style neutrality is unacceptable to the country.

Mykhailo Podoliak, a member of the Ukrainian negotiating team, told local media any peace deal must be on Ukrainian terms that protect its sovereignty.

"We understand the attempt of our partners to remain proactive in the negotiation process," Podoliak said. "Hence the words about the" Swedish" or "Austrian model" of neutrality. But Ukraine is now in a state of direct war with Russia."

"Therefore, the model can only be "Ukrainian" and only with legally verified security guarantees. And no other models or options."

Earlier this morning, Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said Russia was open to a peace deal that saw a neutral Ukraine maintain its own army and navy, along the lines of Austria or Sweden.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60746557
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 09:08:59 AM
In a box in a live feed Zelensky is about to address US Congress and Pelosi is up on stage acting all giggly like she's at a party hopped up on drugs.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 16, 2022, 09:10:49 AM
In a box in a live feed Zelensky is about to address US Congress and Pelosi up on stage acting all giggly like she's at a party hopped up on drugs.

I've got that playing right now. My God, what a moron. She was acting like it was the Oscars, not something serious.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 16, 2022, 09:13:12 AM
Apparently 46 is looking at providing Switchblades to Ukraine. I'm glad I threw some more dough into my AVAV stock earlier in the year.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: zahc on March 16, 2022, 09:17:30 AM
You would be mistaken.

In a strange turn of events, the left hates Russia and accuses the right of being pro-Russia.  That is all based on the "fact" that Putin and Trump are best friends.

It's not a strange turn, it's completely predictable. The US being enemies with Russia is the best thing for China, and it's Chinese manipulation that is driving Democratic policy nowadays. Remember how breathlessly the establishment denounced Trump for being a Russian agent but also how he was racist for anything he did against China. It's very important for China that we are enemies with Russia. That's why we have a war in Ukraine as soon as Beijing Biden got elected.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 16, 2022, 09:20:27 AM
Right or wrong, Ukraine is playing one hell of a propaganda video for Congress right now.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on March 16, 2022, 09:44:25 AM
I haven't seen any Big Media coverage of the war, but would I be correct in surmising the Left is also more kind to Russia than to right-leaning Americans and Fox News personnel, as per usual? I'm guessing they don't say such things about Russian soldiers that get killed.

Every night at 530pm, ABC evening news reports on events in Ukraine.  Every morning, Good Morning America will do segments on the war. NPR also gives updates and stories throughout the day. I watched a little CNN last night and all the pundit talked about was the war.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 09:47:52 AM
I've got that playing right now. My God, what a moron. She was acting like it was the Oscars, not something serious.

She's the creepy aunt that everyone keeps their distance from.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on March 16, 2022, 09:54:27 AM
You would be mistaken.

In a strange turn of events, the left hates Russia and accuses the right of being pro-Russia.  That is all based on the "fact" that Putin and Trump are best friends.

I think it is the midterm strategy. Direct war with Russia, emergency powers here and dissent is treason. Not regular treason, Jan 6 treason.  And that guess comes from me who is really enjoying seeing Russian armor get blown to bits. Don’t feel the least bit bad for them, just don’t want us in it. And we may all be once Russia tries a coup and things get really messy because then the best way to stay in power is a big war with the west.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 10:11:34 AM
Guy doing a live feed forgot his mic was on while eating and just made most god awful hacking up a hairball sound followed by a series of burps :rofl:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on March 16, 2022, 10:45:35 AM
Neutrality for Ukraine seems to be about the best they could hope for.  I'm not sure why they are rejecting it ???
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 16, 2022, 10:53:04 AM
Russian lawmaker demands return of Alaska, California fort and reparations amid U.S.-led sanctions
https://www.foxnews.com/us/russia-alaska-california-fort-reparations-sanctions
Not just no, but HELL no!

The Russians don't get that California fort by itself - if they want it badly enough they have to take the whole state!!
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 16, 2022, 10:54:17 AM
Neutrality for Ukraine seems to be about the best they could hope for.  I'm not sure why they are rejecting it ???
"Hey, I'll totally stop invading you if you promise you'll never make an alliance with anyone who could stop me from invading you again."
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 16, 2022, 10:57:54 AM
"Hey, I'll totally stop invading you if you promise you'll never make an alliance with anyone who could stop me from invading you again."

Pinky swear!
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 10:58:35 AM
Just sign a non-aggression pack. Wink Wink
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 16, 2022, 11:00:23 AM
Divesting from Russia, eliminating all western cultural influences and institutions from Russia, forcing them to be more self sufficient and create parallel systems and relationships outside of western influence seems to be the stupidest plan ever.

What's at risk here?

War spreading to neighboring countries
Potential nuclear exchange
Petro dollar status
World reserve currency status
Western economy(ies)

All for a country that has no strategic value to the USA.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 16, 2022, 11:00:37 AM
In my question about media coverage, I was really wondering if Big Media has been mocking the deaths/injuries of Russian soldiers, the way they did with the two Fox News employees. Usually, the Left tries to have understanding and compassion for foreign enemies or Muslim terrorists, but treats Americans like the scum of the earth.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 16, 2022, 11:05:10 AM
"Hey, I'll totally stop invading you if you promise you'll never make an alliance with anyone who could stop me from invading you again."

The invasion came after more than a decade of Russia requesting neutrality and security guarantees that the west rebuffed in an aggressive manner.

Our State Dept cannot be that stupid so my only option is to believe the permanent government/Biden administration wants a limited war with Russia. War either by proxy or possibly even a limited engagement.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 11:14:16 AM
The invasion came after more than a decade of Russia requesting neutrality and security guarantees that the west rebuffed in an aggressive manner.


Russian has been demanding control of the "Sudetenland Land" for some time now. That issue had zip to do with NATO membership. Putin was going to have them one way or another.
Bear in mind Ukraine has had 30 yeas to join NATO and it hadn't. If NATO membership had anything to do with it it was only because Putin felt it was either now or never to go for the disputed territories. Probably the only that's delayed him this long was the threat of NATO
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AJ Dual on March 16, 2022, 11:16:20 AM
Well, you can probably trust the "no invasion" thing, but only because it'll be decades before Russia can afford to do it again.

Granted, it took us a month to sweep through Iraq in our wars with them, and people considering the Russian invasion as "stalled" at only two weeks is a bit premature. OTOH, even if you take propaganda, and anecdotal twitter video of engagements for what it's worth (not much) it is still pretty safe to say it's not going well for the Russians.

Dead generals, and Baofeng walkie-talkies transmitting in clear analog channels doesn't bode well for them at all.

If Ukraine can hold on for a month more, I think the Russian advance is just going to fall apart even more than it has already. Logistically, Russia is already in deep doo-doo, and another month, they'll be combat ineffective.

There's also the issue that on the maps showing Russian captured territory, it's arguably really just thin lines of roads they've captured, with all the countryside in between going untouched. There's a lot of area in the Russian "rear" where Ukrainian forces can maneuver and put hurt on them if they can leverage home-field advantage and get there, especially with western aid and weapons.

At least that's my prediction I'm willing to put into writing.

It remains to be seen what China's relationship with Russia is going to be. China's a net importer of food and fuel, with no real ability to reverse it. And grain and oil from Russia made cheap by the devalued Ruble is what they need. OTOH, China's sitting on some really bad bubbles, real-estate which is collapsing in slow-mo due to the command economy aspects of the CCP, ghost cities, and their own monetary manipulations of the Yuan.

I think China's going to be "in check" for awhile. Their economy is so precarious, if they act out and get sanctions, anything substantial threatens to bring down their entire economy. I don't expect a move on Taiwan at all. An amphibious landing on an island with modern western weapons is apples and oranges to Ukraine.

I also suspect, that while much better than Russia, China may also have some logistical and quality problems in their military.

https://youtu.be/n96m5lB8nzA

Purely anecdotal of course, but TWO separate Chinese MRE's with green rotten pork in them that put Steve in the hospital hints there may be problems with graft and "lowest bidder" suppliers in China.

And presumably the Ukraine invasion is going to screw up their grain exports as well this coming summer. Between that and Russia coming up short, and under sanctions, food prices/supply are going to be screwed in Asia and the Middle East.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 16, 2022, 11:16:35 AM
The invasion came after more than a decade of Russia requesting neutrality and security guarantees that the west rebuffed in an aggressive manner.
I'm no expert, so I'm not quite sure what "rebuffed in an aggressive manner" means in this context.

Do you believe that if Ukraine had formally denounced any possibility of ever joining any NATO, EU, or similar alliance that Russia would have been less likely to invade?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AJ Dual on March 16, 2022, 11:19:05 AM
I'm no expert, so I'm not quite sure what "rebuffed in an aggressive manner" means in this context.

Do you believe that if Ukraine had formally denounced any possibility of ever joining any NATO, EU, or similar alliance that Russia would have been less likely to invade?

The other thing would have been for Ukraine to retain their pro-Kremlin puppet government.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 11:23:39 AM
Have you been talking about buying a gun for protection from a neighbor who has guns aimed at you and has been threatening to kill you?
If you answer yes then that neighbor is justified in killing you.

 ;/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 16, 2022, 11:25:01 AM
The other thing would have been for Ukraine to retain their pro-Kremlin puppet government.
That, I believe, would probably have been acceptable to the Russians.

Of course, the US would never overthrow an unfriendly government.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 11:36:06 AM
Ed Nash

U.S. to Supply Switchblade “Kamikaze Drones” to Ukraine?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5TTaNpQuWI
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Brad Johnson on March 16, 2022, 12:20:48 PM
Another general zapped.

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/cm/kremlin-loses-another-general-ukraine-071432726.html

Quote
Captain Alexander Garnaev - a famous military test pilot and recipient of the Kremlin’s highest honour, the Hero of Russia award - denounced the “completely incomprehensible” war.

It's telling when Russian military top brass, even retired ones, begin openly denouncing the invasion. That hints at enough dissent among Russian military to potentially initiate them taking action internally.

Brad
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 16, 2022, 01:04:46 PM
Quote
That hints at enough dissent among Russian military to potentially initiate them taking action internally.

Are there enough (any?) checks and balances in place to keep Putin from getting desperate and initiating a scorched Earth operation?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 01:06:47 PM
Another general zapped.

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/cm/kremlin-loses-another-general-ukraine-071432726.html

It's telling when Russian military top brass, even retired ones, begin openly denouncing the invasion. That hints at enough dissent among Russian military to potentially initiate them taking action internally.

Brad


At this point I'm really afraid to get my hopes up for any of that to happen. I mean it would be nice but I'm not holding my breath.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 01:08:12 PM
Are there enough (any?) checks and balances in place to keep Putin from getting desperate and initiating a scorched Earth operation?

I would think, hope?, that would be the point Putin commits suicide so to speak
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 01:36:31 PM
Quote
    I understand times are hard, but doesn't the President of the #Ukraine own a suit? I don't have much respect for current members of the U.S. Congress either, but I still wouldn't address them wearing a t-shirt. I wouldn't want to disrespect the institution or the Unites States.

    — Peter Schiff (@PeterSchiff) March 16, 2022
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/16/economist-peter-schiff-understands-times-are-hard-in-ukraine-but-like-the-least-president-zelenskyy-could-do-is-wear-a-suit-to-address-congress/

The man live in a *expletive deleted*ing bunker  :facepalm:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 16, 2022, 02:22:04 PM
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/16/economist-peter-schiff-understands-times-are-hard-in-ukraine-but-like-the-least-president-zelenskyy-could-do-is-wear-a-suit-to-address-congress/

The man live in a *expletive deleted*ing bunker  :facepalm:

He could probably have worn something a little spiffier than a t-shirt, but I'm guessing his choice of wardrobe was intentional. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 16, 2022, 03:39:35 PM
Interesting take from Task and Purpose.  Gives some info from the Russian side as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igq2fqa7RY4
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 16, 2022, 04:09:47 PM
https://jalopnik.com/one-ukraine-part-is-stopping-europe-s-car-factories-1848660374

It turns out Ukraine is a major supplier of car wiring harnesses for European auto makers.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 16, 2022, 04:18:03 PM
I'm no expert, so I'm not quite sure what "rebuffed in an aggressive manner" means in this context.

Do you believe that if Ukraine had formally denounced any possibility of ever joining any NATO, EU, or similar alliance that Russia would have been less likely to invade?
Russia had suggested on several occasions that Russia and the west cooperate on helping Ukraine develop economically and maintain a neutral status.  Russia has said all along that they would not tolerate NATO taking over Ukraine due to it's strategic location. Before you go "Ukraine can choose blah blah blah", think about Russian missiles and troops in Cuba. Even if we don't agree with Russia here it should be considered a legitimate concern. It never was.  Nobody in the west pursued the line of cooperation and in fact Ukraine was encouraged to pursue EU and NATO membership instead. It is also not outside the realm of possibility that the coup that occurred preceding Russia seizing Crimea was a western intelligence services operation. This isn't conspiracy theory talk, it is tossed out there regularly in serious publications. 

A bully encouraged Ukraine to poke another bully and everyone is surprised the bully that got poked is bullying back.

I don't have a dog in this fight and would have preferred a course of action that mollified Russia's security concerns and still helped Ukraine economically.

We'll never know if Russia was serious about letting Ukraine be free and neutral. We rejected that possibility in favor of absorbing them into the western sphere of economic/military influence, Russia's security fears or concerns be damned.



 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: DittoHead on March 16, 2022, 04:49:43 PM
We'll never know if Russia was serious about letting Ukraine be free and neutral. 
When Ukraine gave up their nukes and Russia signed onto the Budapest Memorandum, there was no clause nullifying it if they got too friendly with NATO or the west. I don't see why Russia deserves any benefit of the doubt in honoring theoretical security assurances when they don't even honor the ones that actually exist.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 16, 2022, 04:57:32 PM
It is also not outside the realm of possibility that the coup that occurred preceding Russia seizing Crimea was a western intelligence services operation. This isn't conspiracy theory talk, it is tossed out there regularly in serious publications. 
Sure.  The west has likely meddled in Ukrainian politics.  The Russians have been doing it for years too.
A bully encouraged Ukraine to poke another bully and everyone is surprised the bully that got poked is bullying back.
I guess that simplification depends on where you want to start telling the story, doesn't it?  Which coup or poisoning or corrupt election you want to call the beginning.
We'll never know if Russia was serious about letting Ukraine be free and neutral. We rejected that possibility in favor of absorbing them into the western sphere of economic/military influence, Russia's security fears or concerns be damned.
That's the trick, isn't it?  If Russia had been negotiating in good faith then our refusal to consider the Russian concerns was likely an instigating factor.

If, on the other hand, Russia was planning to seize all or parts of Ukraine all along, then keeping the issue of Ukrainian membership in NATO/EU vague may have served to dissuade Russia from acting (at least at times that they considered the US president to be a threat).

I don't personally get the impression that Putin does things in good faith.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 16, 2022, 05:20:59 PM
This is a war the west wanted. Nothing was done to avert it and everything was done to provoke it.

I've been tricked (ie lied to) by the bloody neocon foreign policy establishment one to many times. 

and then just like that everybody believed the congenital liars again and followed them into another war...

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 16, 2022, 05:51:12 PM
This is a war the west wanted. Nothing was done to avert it and everything was done to provoke it.

I've been tricked (ie lied to) by the bloody neocon foreign policy establishment one to many times. 

and then just like that everybody believed the congenital liars again and followed them into another war...
Sorry, I don't follow you.

This conflict (one thus far limited to yet another Russian invasion of Ukraine and a western response currently limited to sanctions on Russia and supply of munitions to Ukraine) may well have been one that could have been avoided, but I see absolutely nothing other than your claims to indicate that it was a conflict sought by the west.  Nor do I think western diplomacy is capable of puppeting Putin the way your assertion requires. 

I don't want war, don't want US to send any troops into combat, and certainly don't want to push Putin into a nuclear corner.  That said, for all his faults, keep in mind that Biden did at least tell the truth about coming Russian aggression back when Russia was still lying about it being just a training exercise.

I think that this is a war that Putin wanted and thought would be over before the west would take notice.  Sure, if he could have maintained a puppet government to control Ukraine he probably would have.  And maybe it should have been western policy to look the other way while Russia installed governments they can control in their neighbors.  Those nations are going to be corrupt no matter whose puppet is in control.  However, Russian tanks rolling on Kiev is not the fault of the US, except perhaps inasmuch as Putin believed Biden would pose no threat to the operation.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 16, 2022, 05:55:48 PM
in fact Ukraine was encouraged to pursue EU and NATO membership instead.

Is this true?  I had recalled reading that while Ukraine was actively seeking membership starting in 2014 after the Russia military was preforming operations in Ukraine, but NATO was rather uninterested.

The 2014 government that was a result of the Maidan Uprising, where 400-800k people came out in the freezing cold to protest against the corrupt Yanukovych.  Who later fled to Russia and asked Putin to send Russian troops to invade Ukraine.

I'm sure that both the US and Russia have had influences on Ukraine, but the people certainly seem to wish to be more aligned with Europe and the west, and Russia seems to have pushed them even further in that direction.

None of that is an argument for NATO involvement, but I think it's very inaccurate to look at this through the sole lens of US policy.  This situation wasn't created by US politicians for their own gain.  They'll sure try to capitalize on it, though.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 16, 2022, 06:16:32 PM
Petro dollar status

You mean Petro-Yen status, because the Saudis are currently negotiating with China to base oil prices on the Yen instead of the Dollar. Because with Brandon in office, we're back to Obama policies regarding the ME, and it seems the ME is telling us to get bent.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 16, 2022, 06:25:28 PM
*Yuan
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 16, 2022, 06:35:51 PM
You mean Petro-Yen status, because the Saudis are currently negotiating with China to base oil prices on the Yen instead of the Dollar. Because with Brandon in office, we're back to Obama policies regarding the ME, and it seems the ME is telling us to get bent.

Yuan.

Yen is Japanese.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 16, 2022, 06:52:56 PM
Yeah, sorry. I wasn't proofreading.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 07:49:51 PM
So Ron do you think if there was no talk of Ukraine joining NATO and/or the EU Putin wouldn't have grabbed Crimea in 2014 and be currently trying to take over the Donbas region and possibly the whole of Ukraine?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 16, 2022, 07:56:47 PM
So ron is saying their are no Nato countries in range to effect russia?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 08:40:03 PM
Russia's state TV hit by stream of resignations
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60763494
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: De Selby on March 16, 2022, 08:55:04 PM
Have to agree with Ron here - US intervention (especially by Clinton led state department) has been central to arriving at this point.

Some links from well before the current war:

 https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict (https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict)

Quote
That might be more explicable if what is going on in eastern Ukraine now were not the mirror image of what took place in Kiev a couple of months ago. Then, it was armed protesters in Maidan Square seizing government buildings and demanding a change of government and constitution. US and European leaders championed the "masked militants" and denounced the elected government for its crackdown, just as they now back the unelected government's use of force against rebels occupying police stations and town halls in cities such as Slavyansk and Donetsk.
"America is with you," Senator John McCain told demonstrators then, standing shoulder to shoulder with the leader of the far-right Svoboda party as the US ambassador haggled with the state department over who would make up the new Ukrainian government.

 https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy (https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy)

Quote
The extent of the Obama administration’s meddling in Ukraine’s politics was breathtaking. Russian intelligence intercepted and leaked to the international media a Nuland telephone call in which she and U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Geoffey Pyatt discussed in detail their preferences for specific personnel in a post‐​Yanukovych government. The U.S‑favored candidates included Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the man who became prime minister once Yanukovych was ousted from power. During the telephone call, Nuland stated enthusiastically that “Yats is the guy” who would do the best job.

 https://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right (https://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right)

Quote
The man facing down Putin’s aggression as secretary of the Ukrainian National Security and Defence Council is Andriy Parubiy. He oversees national security for the nation having previously served as security commandant during the anti-government protests in Kiev.

Parubiy was the founder of the Social National Party of Ukraine, a fascist party styled on Hitler’s Nazis, with membership restricted to ethnic Ukrainians.

The Social National Party would go on to become Svoboda, the far-right nationalist party whose leader Oleh Tyahnybok was one of the three most high profile leaders of the Euromaidan protests – negotiating directly with the Yanukovych regime.


You can imagine what the US reaction would be if a Russian-funded protest of armed men ousted the Canadian Government, then went to war on Canadian states that opted to side with the USA. Add to that said Government announcing its plan to have a security alliance with Russia that meant Russian forces stationed on the border with New York.

Yet none of that reflection is possible in the press reports about the current war. It’s truly a full spectrum propaganda effort to make this about Democracy vs dictatorship, when the reality is it’s just plain old competing institutional powers.


Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: De Selby on March 16, 2022, 09:10:14 PM
So Ron do you think if there was no talk of Ukraine joining NATO and/or the EU Putin wouldn't have grabbed Crimea in 2014 and be currently trying to take over the Donbas region and possibly the whole of Ukraine?

You do realise that those areas of Ukraine voted to reject the 2014 coup, and that in response the new US backed government went to war on their localities to try and force them to be part of the new, unelected Ukrainian government?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 09:14:02 PM
You do realise that those areas of Ukraine voted to reject the 2014 coup, and that in response the new US backed government went to war on their localities to try and force them to be part of the new, unelected Ukrainian government?

Is that a yes or a no?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on March 16, 2022, 09:15:23 PM
Holy crap.  Something I actually agree fully with DeSelby on.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: De Selby on March 16, 2022, 09:17:26 PM
Is that a yes or a no?

That’s absolutely a yes, it would not have happened. It did happen because a US-backed armed coup tossed out the elected government and then started talking about the EU and NATO.

Had there been no such talk, there would’ve been no coup nor civil war for Russia to intervene in.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 16, 2022, 09:17:42 PM
Holy crap.  Something I actually agree fully with DeSelby on.

Even a blind pig occasionally finds an acorn.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 16, 2022, 09:22:02 PM
That’s absolutely a yes, it would not have happened. It did happen because a US-backed armed coup tossed out the elected government and then started talking about the EU and NATO.

Had there been no such talk, there would’ve been no coup nor civil war for Russia to intervene in.

So Russia will be giving back Crimea and the Donbas region and leave Ukraine alone when they're done?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: kgbsquirrel on March 16, 2022, 09:45:53 PM
So Russia will be giving back Crimea and the Donbas region and leave Ukraine alone when they're done?

How about the bits of Georgia they stole before that?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: kgbsquirrel on March 16, 2022, 09:47:18 PM
Have to agree with Ron here - US intervention (especially by Clinton led state department) has been central to arriving at this point.

Some links from well before the current war:

 https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict (https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict)

 https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy (https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy)

 https://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right (https://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right)


You can imagine what the US reaction would be if a Russian-funded protest of armed men ousted the Canadian Government, then went to war on Canadian states that opted to side with the USA. Add to that said Government announcing its plan to have a security alliance with Russia that meant Russian forces stationed on the border with New York.

Yet none of that reflection is possible in the press reports about the current war. It’s truly a full spectrum propaganda effort to make this about Democracy vs dictatorship, when the reality is it’s just plain old competing institutional powers.

Isn't that pretty much exactly what is happening in Canada now, except with China instead of Russia?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 16, 2022, 10:22:55 PM
https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy (https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy)

I read this article, and am still confused what exactly the US did to install a pro-western government that lead to the eventual russian invasion of 2022?

Quote
Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych was not an admirable character. After his election in 2010, he used patronage and other instruments of state power in a flagrant fashion to the advantage of his political party. That high‐​handed behavior and legendary corruption alienated large portions of Ukraine’s population. As the Ukrainian economy languished and fell farther and farther behind those of Poland and other East European neighbors that had implemented significant market‐​oriented reforms, public anger at Yanukovych mounted. When he rejected the European Union’s terms for an association agreement in late 2013, in favor of a Russian offer, angry demonstrators filled Kiev’s Independence Square, known as the Maidan, as well as sites in other cities.

And then:


The US didn't stage some coup in Ukraine.  The Ukrainian people got upset and started protesting.  US leadership acknowledged that they agreed with the protesters, made some speeches, said some things, and talked privately to each other about what they'd like to see happen.  None of which is controlling, managing or directing the affairs of that country - no more than when any government has press releases and says things.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 16, 2022, 10:46:09 PM
Interesting take from Task and Purpose.  Gives some info from the Russian side as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igq2fqa7RY4

"I get put on all the FBI lists so you don't have to."

That's mighty thoughtful of him.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 16, 2022, 11:04:28 PM
For those arguing that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is the fault of the US because we meddled in Ukrainian politics, does Russia bear no burden for … meddling in Ukraine’s politics?  And then, you know, invading Ukraine?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on March 16, 2022, 11:13:06 PM
For those arguing that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is the fault of the US because we meddled in Ukrainian politics, does Russia bear no burden for … meddling in Ukraine’s politics?  And then, you know, invading Ukraine?

Those are not mutually exclusive positions.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: De Selby on March 16, 2022, 11:23:49 PM
I read this article, and am still confused what exactly the US did to install a pro-western government that lead to the eventual russian invasion of 2022?

And then:

  • John McCain went to Kiev and had dinner with opposition leaders.
  • Nuland, the assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian Affairs handed out cookies to demonstrators
  • U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Geoffey Pyatt discussed with Nuland who they'd rather have in a post‐​Yanukovych government.

The US didn't stage some coup in Ukraine.  The Ukrainian people got upset and started protesting.  US leadership acknowledged that they agreed with the protesters, made some speeches, said some things, and talked privately to each other about what they'd like to see happen.  None of which is controlling, managing or directing the affairs of that country - no more than when any government has press releases and says things.

The reason that nuland was having that conversation is that the USA was the major financial backer of the coup that brought the 2014 government to power. Hence they had a large say over who would take leadership roles. The reason we found that out is that the Russians intercepted and then leaked Nuland’s call.
 https://www.foxnews.com/story/u-s-spent-65m-to-aid-ukrainian-groups.amp (https://www.foxnews.com/story/u-s-spent-65m-to-aid-ukrainian-groups.amp)

Yes, it’s true that the armed protestors who overthrew the government in 2014 had to choose to be there, but that would be equally true of a Russian-funded, Russian trained political party in Canada.

I really don’t think the Bush and then Obama state departments spent those millions because they expected nothing in return for the US/Ukraine relationship. There’s certainly something Biden got out of it, and it’s not hard to see how funding that revolution set the stage for placing NATO in an economic and geographical centre that is essential to the Russian economy.

Again, apply the same logic to a Canadian coup and it seems entirely predictable this would lead to war. It has nothing to do with democracy or principles.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: De Selby on March 16, 2022, 11:24:48 PM
For those arguing that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is the fault of the US because we meddled in Ukrainian politics, does Russia bear no burden for … meddling in Ukraine’s politics?  And then, you know, invading Ukraine?

Of course they do. That’s why I say this is great power competition and not an idealistic or even ideological struggle.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: De Selby on March 16, 2022, 11:27:26 PM
So Russia will be giving back Crimea and the Donbas region and leave Ukraine alone when they're done?

Those regions rebelled against the central government and joined Russia on their own terms, so probably not. You’re forgetting that this was a civil war between people who supported the coup and who rejected the coup in favour of the elected government before the current war.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 16, 2022, 11:54:35 PM
The reason that nuland was having that conversation is that the USA was the major financial backer of the coup that brought the 2014 government to power. Hence they had a large say over who would take leadership roles. The reason we found that out is that the Russians intercepted and then leaked Nuland’s call.
 https://www.foxnews.com/story/u-s-spent-65m-to-aid-ukrainian-groups.amp (https://www.foxnews.com/story/u-s-spent-65m-to-aid-ukrainian-groups.amp)

Yes, it’s true that the armed protestors who overthrew the government in 2014 had to choose to be there, but that would be equally true of a Russian-funded, Russian trained political party in Canada.

I really don’t think the Bush and then Obama state departments spent those millions because they expected nothing in return for the US/Ukraine relationship. There’s certainly something Biden got out of it, and it’s not hard to see how funding that revolution set the stage for placing NATO in an economic and geographical centre that is essential to the Russian economy.

Again, apply the same logic to a Canadian coup and it seems entirely predictable this would lead to war. It has nothing to do with democracy or principles.

The Russians were throwing money at their guy too.  A lot more money than the US.

From 2013:
"After talks between Mr Putin and Mr Yanukovych in the Kremlin, it was announced Russia would buy $15bn-worth (£9.2bn; 10.9bn euros) of Ukrainian government bonds.  The cost of Russian gas supplied to Ukraine has been slashed from more than $400 (£245; 291 euros) per 1,000 cubic metres to $268.5."

Also... the US spends millions of dollars on many foreign government programs which I don't see an expectation of quid pro quo in.

Still not seeing how a pro-western Ukraine is something the US manufactured which forced Russia's hand. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on March 17, 2022, 09:08:12 AM
Russia wants warm water ports and vacation towns. Russia wants a monopoly on energy production as witnessed by already moving oil rigs into Ukrainian EEZ in the Black Sea and attacking nuclear plants. All the stupid meddling our state department did in Ukraine was a faint flicker of a green light as compared to the complete inaction when the little green men had free run of the Donbas for years, when we barely yawned when Crimea was stolen, zero thought given to Georgia, nobody cares when a head of state gets polonium tea, etc...  But here we are with the whataboutism.

My fear now is Biden needs a war to stay in power. Putin might have to have one to stave off the internal problems he has.

If he had been economically crushed in 2014 like he is now we wouldn’t be here.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on March 17, 2022, 09:13:44 AM
The harsh realities of war. 

https://fb.watch/bOXcgSZkeB/ (https://fb.watch/bOXcgSZkeB/)

Radio free Europe Liberty Radio story on the Ukrainian guy who lost his whole family due to indirect artillery fire from the Russians.  NSFW with some disturbing images.

No one wins in war and the innocent suffer. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 17, 2022, 09:26:25 AM
I just ran into this regarding a deepfake surrender video by Zelenskyy:

https://techcrunch.com/2022/03/16/facebook-zelensky-deepfake/

The few deepfakes that I have seen in the past were quite convincing to me. On one - I think Tom Cruise - the only reason I could tell it was a deepfake is because of the outrageous language the author inserted.

I just thought that this was an interesting newish way to do psyops, and if not taken to overexaggeration and extremes, can be an effective tactic.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 17, 2022, 10:07:30 AM
People are stupid. Look how much traction a retarded SNL skit got. I know a number of people that still get all butt hurt if you tell them it was Tina Fey portraying Sarah Palin in a SNL skit that said " I can see Russia from my house" and not actually Sarah Palin.

I'm surprised we aren't seeing more deepfake propaganda in the media, hell, maybe we are and don't know it.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 17, 2022, 11:09:00 AM
And here I thought the roots of the Russian invasion went back to Joe Biden's bragging about threatening to withhold aid money to get a Ukrainian prosecutor fired so he couldn't investigate the shady Ukrainian company funneling bribe money a high salary to his son Hunter.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 17, 2022, 01:23:43 PM
Quote
'Imposter claiming to be Ukraine PM tried to talk to UK minister'

UK Defence Secretary Ben Wallace says an "imposter" claiming to be Ukraine's Prime Minister Denys Shmyhal tried to contact him.

"He posed several misleading questions and after becoming suspicious I terminated the call," Wallace wrote on Twitter, without providing further details.

In a follow-up tweet, he described the incident as "desperate".
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60774819
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 17, 2022, 03:22:58 PM
Everyone seems to be going gaga over this video by Arnold Schwarzenegger. I might be in the minority, but it really sounds like a propaganda piece to me. Especially because Arnold is the "screw your freedom" and "06JAN terrorists" guy.

https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/17/must-watch-arnold-schwarzenegger-shares-an-important-and-powerful-message-with-the-russian-people-video/

While I support Ukraine defending themselves, the anti-Russian stuff that has been overwhelmingly blanketing the airwaves and social media has really made me stop and ponder. It seems to be much worse than the propaganda from the Russian side, and really has me thinking, "wait a minute here..."

Is anyone else feeling like some of this "death to Russia" cheerleading is kinda over the top and maybe makes us bad guys as well?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 17, 2022, 04:18:07 PM
Everyone seems to be going gaga over this video by Arnold Schwarzenegger. I might be in the minority, but it really sounds like a propaganda piece to me. Especially because Arnold is the "screw your freedom" and "06JAN terrorists" guy.

https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/17/must-watch-arnold-schwarzenegger-shares-an-important-and-powerful-message-with-the-russian-people-video/

While I support Ukraine defending themselves, the anti-Russian stuff that has been overwhelmingly blanketing the airwaves and social media has really made me stop and ponder. It seems to be much worse than the propaganda from the Russian side, and really has me thinking, "wait a minute here..."

Is anyone else feeling like some of this "death to Russia" cheerleading is kinda over the top and maybe makes us bad guys as well?

Yea, I've been getting that too.  Also, while I don't fully agree with the perspective, some of Ron's points are valid and have lead me to be a little more centrist on the issue than I started out being.

It's upside down world.  The left wants a war, and the right is trying to blame america for Russia actions.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 17, 2022, 04:27:41 PM
Time for a drink

Jen Psaki says it’s in our nat’l security interest to have Putin’s Russia broker nuke deal with Iran on US behalf
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/03/17/jen-psaki-says-its-in-our-natl-security-interest-to-have-putins-russia-broker-nuke-deal-with-iran-on-us-behalf/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 17, 2022, 04:50:49 PM
Yea, I've been getting that too.  Also, while I don't fully agree with the perspective, some of Ron's points are valid and have lead me to be a little more centrist on the issue than I started out being.

It's upside down world.  The left wants a war, and the right is trying to blame america for Russia actions.

I was almost going to start a separate poll, because I'm kinda feeling like I'm on a parallel Earth right now. I'm looking around as a "republitarian" and am feeling like the far left whackos I otherwise make fun of.

I was on a pigeon shoot with a couple of older guys yesterday, who both consider themselves VERY conservative. Both NRA life members, both Vietnam combat vets. One of them was a big Trump supporter up until 06JAN - I mean the kind that had a Trump flag under his American flag for four years. Now he hates Trump and both guys were talking about putting all the 06JAN people in front of a firing squad. They were also super pissed that we're not sending F-22s and A-10s to Ukraine, flown by our guys, to wipe out the Russians.

So it's not just the usual "anti-war" left that is war crazy right now, but much of the right. I'm not sure where I am on the APS sliding scale, but in meatspace around these parts anyway, I'm kinda feeling like people (both right and left) think I'm a commie pinko sympathizer or something, and no one is questioning what I consider scary propaganda from our side. Or the non-Russian side, or whatever alternate Earth side that I'm apparently on. I feel like it's a very minority position right now though, and that I might get rocks thrown at me if I don't hurry up and put Ukrainian flag stickers on everything I own.

I should point out that the two guys mentioned above only get their news from the "local" papers and ABC, NBC, and CBS. Of course even alternate "conservative" sites like Twitchy seem to be pushing for war. There are very few people in the media stepping back to consider potential WW3, nuclear war, etc.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 17, 2022, 05:22:43 PM
Yea, I've been getting that too.  Also, while I don't fully agree with the perspective, some of Ron's points are valid and have lead me to be a little more centrist on the issue than I started out being.

It's upside down world.  The left wants a war, and the right is trying to blame america for Russia actions.

While I think it (NATO membership) may be part of the reason I just don't think it is THE reason. I think Putin would done it anyway.

Now did Ukraine do something to inflame this, probably. But I still pin 80-90% of this on Putin.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 17, 2022, 06:06:14 PM
No real movement showing up on the maps but lots and lots of shelling symbols
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on March 17, 2022, 07:32:36 PM
Ben, I think I’m on the same plane as you.  Question is, how far will Putin go?  Better yet, how far will his Generals go?  Captured Russian soldiers are saying it’s better to die or surrender in Ukraine than retreating back to Russia only to get shot.

Will Putin say screw everyone and hit the nuke button if his rule is at an end?  Will he just fold and go away?  What is America willing to sacrifice by getting involved in the shooting war?  We’re pushing the limit with the weapons we’re providing Ukraine now and will Putin use that to escalate?

Lastly, uncle Joe has a telecom with China in the morning.  If China says screw Russia, do we jump in feet first into the shooting war? 

So many unknowns right now.  I’m finding myself looking at the worst case and making additional preparations (just in case) should WWIII start.  Not going full prepper but coordinating bug out plans with family.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 17, 2022, 08:00:50 PM
While I think it (NATO membership) may be part of the reason I just don't think it is THE reason. I think Putin would done it anyway.

Now did Ukraine do something to inflame this, probably. But I still pin 80-90% of this on Putin.
I don't want to take any blame off Putin either.  I don't think he is a good guy.  I am just not sure the Ukrainian govt are great people either.  The stuff about the "biolabs" among other things makes me wonder if the US or other international interests were playing games in the Ukraine which helped push Putin into his actions. 

All that really means is both sides are probably the bad guys and lot of people are caught in the middle. 

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 17, 2022, 08:04:49 PM
Quote
Putin's conditions for ending the war
According to the newspaper ABC, Putin's conditions for peace are as follows:

1. Ukraine doesn't enter NATO and maintains a position of neutrality

2. Crimea is recognised as a territory of Russia

3. The independence is granted to the people's republics of Donetsk and Lugansk

4. Ukraine demilitarises and surrenders any weapons which constitute a threat to Russia

5. Ukraine goes through a process of denazification, which would essentially constitute a change of government based on Putin's previous words about the Ukrainian leadership.

6. Russian becomes the second official language of Ukraine and any laws which prohibit its use are repealed.
https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/world-news/2022/03/16/6231e91022601ddc368b4593.html

4 open to interpretation and does that include any weapon the west has given Ukraine?
5 Who gets to choose what replaces it?
6 Seems an odd demand to make of another country to me
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 17, 2022, 08:08:56 PM
I was almost going to start a separate poll, because I'm kinda feeling like I'm on a parallel Earth right now. I'm looking around as a "republitarian" and am feeling like the far left whackos I otherwise make fun of.

I was on a pigeon shoot with a couple of older guys yesterday, who both consider themselves VERY conservative. Both NRA life members, both Vietnam combat vets. One of them was a big Trump supporter up until 06JAN - I mean the kind that had a Trump flag under his American flag for four years. Now he hates Trump and both guys were talking about putting all the 06JAN people in front of a firing squad. They were also super pissed that we're not sending F-22s and A-10s to Ukraine, flown by our guys, to wipe out the Russians.

So it's not just the usual "anti-war" left that is war crazy right now, but much of the right. I'm not sure where I am on the APS sliding scale, but in meatspace around these parts anyway, I'm kinda feeling like people (both right and left) think I'm a commie pinko sympathizer or something, and no one is questioning what I consider scary propaganda from our side. Or the non-Russian side, or whatever alternate Earth side that I'm apparently on. I feel like it's a very minority position right now though, and that I might get rocks thrown at me if I don't hurry up and put Ukrainian flag stickers on everything I own.

I should point out that the two guys mentioned above only get their news from the "local" papers and ABC, NBC, and CBS. Of course even alternate "conservative" sites like Twitchy seem to be pushing for war. There are very few people in the media stepping back to consider potential WW3, nuclear war, etc.
I stopped watching the TV news completely.  I am happy not to hear all the propaganda.  IMO, there are lot of better sources of information on the internet to find.  Yes, they are all biased so pick 2 or 3 unrelated sources instead of just one. 

I don't consider myself anti war.  I am just very cautious.  Seeing that leaders I thought were decent (at the time) got us into 20 year occupations over the last couple decades, I think it is wise to have a healthy bit of distrust for the war hawks on both sides. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on March 17, 2022, 08:45:41 PM
The war is how the left stays in power and simultaneously purges the trumpers.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on March 17, 2022, 08:47:52 PM
I stopped watching the TV news completely.  I am happy not to hear all the propaganda.

I have to admit, CNN sucks when they talk politics but they have pretty decent war coverage…
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 18, 2022, 10:07:09 AM
Celebration in Moscow of the annexation of Crimea.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60774819?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=62348de4980bea49f4b7d160%26WATCH%3A%20Thousands%20gather%20to%20celebrate%20annexation%20of%20Crimea%262022-03-18T13%3A53%3A56.396Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:1d8fbbd9-3d64-4c63-b63a-280e14fb96da&pinned_post_asset_id=62348de4980bea49f4b7d160&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: fifth_column on March 18, 2022, 10:26:08 AM
I was almost going to start a separate poll, because I'm kinda feeling like I'm on a parallel Earth right now. I'm looking around as a "republitarian" and am feeling like the far left whackos I otherwise make fun of.

I was on a pigeon shoot with a couple of older guys yesterday, who both consider themselves VERY conservative. Both NRA life members, both Vietnam combat vets. One of them was a big Trump supporter up until 06JAN - I mean the kind that had a Trump flag under his American flag for four years. Now he hates Trump and both guys were talking about putting all the 06JAN people in front of a firing squad. They were also super pissed that we're not sending F-22s and A-10s to Ukraine, flown by our guys, to wipe out the Russians.

So it's not just the usual "anti-war" left that is war crazy right now, but much of the right. I'm not sure where I am on the APS sliding scale, but in meatspace around these parts anyway, I'm kinda feeling like people (both right and left) think I'm a commie pinko sympathizer or something, and no one is questioning what I consider scary propaganda from our side. Or the non-Russian side, or whatever alternate Earth side that I'm apparently on. I feel like it's a very minority position right now though, and that I might get rocks thrown at me if I don't hurry up and put Ukrainian flag stickers on everything I own.

I should point out that the two guys mentioned above only get their news from the "local" papers and ABC, NBC, and CBS. Of course even alternate "conservative" sites like Twitchy seem to be pushing for war. There are very few people in the media stepping back to consider potential WW3, nuclear war, etc.

I think the American propaganda machine is much more effective than anything the Russians ever had in place. People that think they're free seem to be willing to adopt whatever mindset they're told to adopt, even if today's mindset is opposite of yesterday's. A person that is 100% certain he "thinks for himself" will never question if his thoughts are being influenced by someone else. Essentially, self-confidence makes one vulnerable to manipulation. Now that's irony.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 18, 2022, 10:48:12 AM
... says the user with the name fifth_column ... now I don't know what to believe!
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: fifth_column on March 18, 2022, 11:04:05 AM
... says the user with the name fifth_column ... now I don't know what to believe!

That's good. A little self-doubt can be extremely healthy . . . . .

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 18, 2022, 11:09:51 AM
That's good. A little self-doubt can be extremely healthy . . . . .
If a fifth columnist wants me to doubt myself, then I shouldn't doubt myself, right? 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 18, 2022, 11:11:52 AM
Putin not serious about peace talks, says former Russian PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60774819?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6234830a980bea49f4b7d145%26Putin%20not%20serious%20about%20peace%20talks%2C%20says%20former%20Russian%20PM%262022-03-18T14%3A21%3A36.641Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:288fe9c9-98e1-42b5-bd10-c8c9c0956f93&pinned_post_asset_id=6234830a980bea49f4b7d145&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AJ Dual on March 18, 2022, 11:18:15 AM
Quote
He said Putin and his closest political allies were "nervous" about the extent of the "devastating" economic sanctions imposed by the West, suggesting the Russian leader "didn't expect the sanctions would be so harsh".

I think this is very true. Russia got a pretty weak slap on the wrist for taking Crimea and the other separatist regions in Eastern Ukraine. And that led them to expect more of the same.

Now the wheat harvest is failing, and the war in Ukraine will most likely screw theirs up too, and a bunch of the Middle East and China relies on that food.

Putin can't admit failure or retreat, so I expect Russia to continue, but there's a good chance they'll suffer complete logistical collapse within a month or so.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: fifth_column on March 18, 2022, 11:42:27 AM
If a fifth columnist wants me to doubt myself, then I shouldn't doubt myself, right?

Depends on your goal. Finding the truth is reductive; eliminating the false leaves only the true.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 18, 2022, 12:27:52 PM
Grain of salt time?


Some people at Moscow rally say they were pressured to attend
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60774819?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6234a9570ce87e491a0f01b8%26Some%20people%20at%20Moscow%20rally%20say%20they%20were%20pressured%20to%20attend%262022-03-18T16%3A06%3A13.807Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:ae43bd96-af9c-4219-a7e2-7d1fbae80bdb&pinned_post_asset_id=6234a9570ce87e491a0f01b8&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on March 18, 2022, 01:57:24 PM
I hope I am wrong, but I think a lot of Ukrainians will starve to death (again) if this war isn't ended soon.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 18, 2022, 03:23:37 PM
I hope I am wrong, but I think a lot of Ukrainians will starve to death (again) if this war isn't ended soon.
Yeah.  Especially in Russian controlled regions.  A country having trouble supplying its own military is going to have a hard time feeding civilians in conquered territory.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 18, 2022, 03:47:34 PM
Yeah.  Especially in Russian controlled regions.  A country having trouble supplying its own military is going to have a hard time feeding civilians in conquered territory.
Cue PRAVDA stories about Nazi cannibal Ukrainians.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 18, 2022, 03:57:58 PM
Yeah.  Especially in Russian controlled regions.  A country having trouble supplying its own military is going to have a hard time feeding civilians in conquered territory.
And foreign armies foraging always ends well.   =|
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 18, 2022, 04:49:26 PM
A bunch of guns and tactical gear are being collected for Ukraine. While I applaud the thought behind the efforts, I'm still betting a lot of this stuff will never make it through the red tape and ITAR.

If nothing else, it's certainly another jab at Biden and his "rifles vs F-15s and nukes" comment.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/american-gun-companies-helping-ukrainians-fight-putin
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 18, 2022, 04:52:47 PM
A bunch of guns and tactical gear are being collected for Ukraine. While I applaud the thought behind the efforts, I'm still betting a lot of this stuff will never make it through the red tape and ITAR.

If nothing else, it's certainly another jab at Biden and his "rifles vs F-15s and nukes" comment.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/american-gun-companies-helping-ukrainians-fight-putin

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-ar-15-tyranny-15-stripped-lower-receiver-ships-in-approximately-12-weeks.html
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 18, 2022, 08:15:08 PM
ISS-bound Cosmonauts open hatch to Space Station wearing Ukrainian-colored flight suits.

Heads are going to roll at Roskosmos for this one.

(https://i.redd.it/h2yezifqy7o81.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 18, 2022, 08:36:08 PM
Looks like the same suit without the blue.
Photo is dated 2015

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-moscow-russia-october-06-cosmonaut-suit-aansari-in-space-museum-on-94562597.html

I suspect the blue areas are velcro
 but still funny, whoops
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 19, 2022, 10:15:17 AM
Appears the Russians deployed a hypersonic missile yesterday.  Travels at mach 10, supposed to be unable to be intercepted by Western missile defense systems.  They used it to blow up a Ukrainian arms depot.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18000231/moment-russian-hypersonic-missile-destroys-ukrainian-weapons-depot/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 19, 2022, 04:31:33 PM
Appears the Russians deployed a hypersonic missile yesterday.  Travels at mach 10, supposed to be unable to be intercepted by Western missile defense systems.  They used it to blow up a Ukrainian arms depot.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18000231/moment-russian-hypersonic-missile-destroys-ukrainian-weapons-depot/
It's possible to stop the video and catch what sure looks like the missile coming in vertically . . . I'm not so sure the drone footage would be capable of catching a Mach 10 missile. Any video experts here?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 19, 2022, 04:40:15 PM
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275805148_5004252419622983_3083890258467613694_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=dp2OOrJ8pfgAX8UOtpM&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=00_AT-qIQaBc-8f2AzNTT9haeiEFKUFj_7l5y5DiPildtLbPA&oe=623BC7A1)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 19, 2022, 08:38:44 PM
Anti-Tank Guided Cat

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/FOPkPmiXwAwb1Uw.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 19, 2022, 10:44:52 PM
Just learned about the Azov Battallion, did a little reading on it.

Smells similar to the Mujaheddin of the 1980's.

How much money will anyone bet that, after the US offers material support to guerrillas fighting the Russians, then two decades later those same guerrillas become enemies of the US and a US effort to pacify the region is undertaken?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: bedlamite on March 19, 2022, 11:54:05 PM
Don't know if it's true, but it wouldn't surprise me.

(https://i.redd.it/qjre7k0fpdo81.jpg)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on March 20, 2022, 12:28:08 AM
Don't know if it's true, but it wouldn't surprise me.

(https://i.redd.it/qjre7k0fpdo81.jpg)


Why bother with the cash?  That’s about $1.6mil in gold.  Would the cash be intended for bribes?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 20, 2022, 07:56:59 AM
Panic buying in Russia.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1505144874886209538

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russians-panic-buying-ukraine-invasion-consequences
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Boomhauer on March 20, 2022, 08:03:42 AM
Don't know if it's true, but it wouldn't surprise me.

(https://i.redd.it/qjre7k0fpdo81.jpg)


Four billion? You mean 1 billion after our politicians took their
3 billion cut first. Then that billion will wind up like that
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on March 20, 2022, 08:04:48 AM
Just learned about the Azov Battallion, did a little reading on it.

Smells similar to the Mujaheddin of the 1980's.

How much money will anyone bet that, after the US offers material support to guerrillas fighting the Russians, then two decades later those same guerrillas become enemies of the US and a US effort to pacify the region is undertaken?

The US, assuming it still exists, will likely not be in any condition to pacify anything twenty years from now.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 20, 2022, 08:07:21 AM
Why bother with the cash?  That’s about $1.6mil in gold.  Would the cash be intended for bribes?

Likely bribes and other "strategic" uses. Hard to break up those gold bars into smaller chunks, and it has to still be converted, which would be an extra step and attention for the bribee. Cash is fast.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 20, 2022, 08:12:34 AM
The US, assuming it still exists, will likely not be in any condition to pacify anything twenty years from now.

I used to think talk like this was whacko. Lately, I've been talking like this. I look around, and we are becoming a "superpower" in name only. China is surpassing us in everything, and much of the rest of the world seems to be changing their bets to that horse.

Quote
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on March 20, 2022, 08:17:23 AM
I used to think talk like this was whacko. Lately, I've been talking like this. I look around, and we are becoming a "superpower" in name only. China is surpassing us in everything, and much of the rest of the world seems to be changing their bets to that horse.

It's just extrapolating current trends out to a logical conclusion.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 20, 2022, 08:40:12 AM
Panic buying in Russia.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1505144874886209538

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russians-panic-buying-ukraine-invasion-consequences

Seeing reports put out by British intel that there is growing grumbling within Putin's ruling circle and even a bit of panic forming.
Things could go all Duce/Saddam/Ceaușescu (take your pick) real quick in Russia.
Which puts more and more pressure on Putin to end this quickly. Doubt he would back out but rather escalate it in ways that would make Hitler blush an attempt to break the Ukrainians.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 20, 2022, 08:40:55 AM
Don't know if it's true, but it wouldn't surprise me.

(https://i.redd.it/qjre7k0fpdo81.jpg)

That would be 80% of congress x million if here.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 20, 2022, 08:56:21 AM
Finally


https://twitter.com/solamiga/status/1504200059604320257
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Fly320s on March 20, 2022, 09:03:47 AM
Finally


https://twitter.com/solamiga/status/1504200059604320257

Good one.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 20, 2022, 09:34:42 AM
Full version:

https://youtu.be/s4UM2IkfB0o
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 20, 2022, 09:37:27 AM
Full version:

https://youtu.be/s4UM2IkfB0o

Thanks.
I was looking for that but for some reason it wasn't coming up or I over looked it based on the date since I was looking for something more recent.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 20, 2022, 09:50:22 AM
As a side note I just checked gun broker and people are asking $11k+ for the same Russian Vepr I paid $1,100 for which included a $400-500 Iron Wood SVD stock.
So ~$600 to $11k+  :O

Yikes. It's going to stay in the gun safe now.

Yes I know gun broker can be wacko. ~$3k would be more realistic in my mind.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 20, 2022, 12:19:34 PM
Anyone can ask any price. What are they selling for?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 20, 2022, 12:25:19 PM
Anyone can ask any price. What are they selling for?

In my post
I did see some go for ~3k around that before this current mess thanks to Trump's ban on imported Russian guns but even at ~$3k still nuts IMHO.
But look at Dragunovs, $500 rifles before their import was banned back under Bush Sr., or was it Clinton?, that sell for ~$20k+ now.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 20, 2022, 12:32:45 PM
This my Vepr

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/WLJ2-rs.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 20, 2022, 09:07:55 PM
Fox News reports:

Quote
Russia orders deployment of cadets: Ukrainian Defense Ministry
Ukrainian defense officials claimed Sunday to have obtained documents that indicate Russia has ordered the deployment of cadets to Ukraine.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has repeatedly told his people that the army is not utilizing cadets, but photos of the documents posted online indicate that Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu has signed an order to the contrary.

The deployment will see Yunarmia cadets aged 17 and 18 pushed to the frontlines in Ukraine.

Haven't yet seen confirmation from a non-Ukrainian source.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 21, 2022, 07:45:44 AM
Quote
What's happened so far today?

If you are just catching up with the morning headlines, here's a short summary of what is going on in Ukraine today.

    The dire situation in the port city of Mariupol continues, with some 300,000 people trapped without power, food or water amid intense bombardment
    Ukraine has ignored Russia's demand it gives up the city by 05:00 Moscow time, saying Russian promises to allow people out of the siege could not be trusted
    A Ukrainian MP from Mariupol says Russia is trying to starve out the citizens, but the city will not surrender
    Ukrainian authorities say at least six people were killed when a shopping centre and a number of houses were hit in the Podilskyi district of Kyiv
    People are being advised to shelter after a 50-tonne tank containing poison gas was damaged during shelling of a chemical plant near the city of Sumy, causing a toxic ammonia leak
    The mayor of Kyiv has announced a curfew in the capital from 2000 local time on Monday to 0700 local time on Wednesday
    Lithuania’s foreign minister says the EU must maintain pressure on Russia and "cannot get tired" of imposing sanctions

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60802572?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=62384dacec502b53cd4832f1%26What%27s%20happened%20so%20far%20today%3F%262022-03-21T10%3A41%3A38.998Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:d39ff89f-ea9e-47f0-b65f-970cc4dce5bd&pinned_post_asset_id=62384dacec502b53cd4832f1&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 21, 2022, 02:30:52 PM
1 million rounds of ammo waiting at the border, thanks to Richard Childress and Ammo Inc.:

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/nascar-childress-ammunition-ukraine-million
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 21, 2022, 04:12:41 PM
Remington selling "I need ammo, not a ride" t-shirts:

https://www.remington.com/merchandise/apparel/short-sleeve-shirts/1001692.html

Quote
Want to help? Purchase and wear this Ukraine benefit t-shirt. All profits benefit the Ukraine Crisis Relief Fund through the Global Giving organization Ukraine Crisis Relief Fund - GlobalGiving.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 21, 2022, 04:50:07 PM
Did Russia just admit to 10,000 deaths?
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60802572?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6238da031fea84616a6cc55d%26Did%20Russia%20just%20admit%20to%2010%2C000%20deaths%3F%262022-03-21T20%3A17%3A03.074Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:0f6974bc-751e-4814-9549-d797d614cd8e&pinned_post_asset_id=6238da031fea84616a6cc55d&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 21, 2022, 05:26:05 PM
Remington selling "I need ammo, not a ride" t-shirts:

https://www.remington.com/merchandise/apparel/short-sleeve-shirts/1001692.html

Yeah, I got an e-mail from [not really]Remington.

If [not really]Remington really wanted to help Ukraine, they'd run a batch of 7.62x39 and ship it over.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 21, 2022, 05:49:00 PM
Yeah, I got an e-mail from [not really]Remington.

If [not really]Remington really wanted to help Ukraine, they'd run a batch of 7.62x39 and ship it over.

5.45 for the Army.
Their older reserve rifles are in 7.62x39 though
Is Remington even tooled up to produce either?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Big Hairy Bee on March 21, 2022, 07:23:30 PM
I'll just leave this here...

Amelia Anisovych: Ukrainian girl who sang ‘Let It Go’ in bomb shelter performs national anthem

https://youtu.be/KrI7jPWzHzA (https://youtu.be/KrI7jPWzHzA)

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Fly320s on March 21, 2022, 08:11:07 PM
5.45 for the Army.
Their older reserve rifles are in 7.62x39 though
Is Remington even tooled up to produce either?

Is Remington even a pro-gun, pro-Ukraine company?  After the latest bankruptcy, who knows what is going on with them.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on March 21, 2022, 08:30:17 PM
  https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/21/biden-russia-cyberattacks-00018942?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=news_tab (https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/21/biden-russia-cyberattacks-00018942?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=news_tab)

Joe says Russian cyber attacks are coming.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 21, 2022, 08:34:59 PM
Does Joe even know what a cyber attack is?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 21, 2022, 08:50:42 PM
Does Joe even know what a cyber attack is?

Does Joe even know what Ukraine is?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 21, 2022, 10:04:25 PM
Does Joe even know what Ukraine is?

Does Joe even know what "is" is?  =D
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 21, 2022, 10:05:26 PM
Does Joe even know who Joe is?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 21, 2022, 11:27:20 PM
 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/21/biden-russia-cyberattacks-00018942?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=news_tab (https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/21/biden-russia-cyberattacks-00018942?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=news_tab)

Joe says Russian cyber attacks are coming.

Are they getting ready to allege more election interference from Russia? I.e., stuff that will make the Trump-Russia hoax "look like Jim Eagle"?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 22, 2022, 07:12:16 AM
Are they getting ready to allege more election interference from Russia? I.e., stuff that will make the Trump-Russia hoax "look like Jim Eagle"?

Ding Ding Ding
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 22, 2022, 08:33:28 AM
I think this goes here. I'm not necessarily a Candace Owens fan, but this was great. The NYT asked her to provide information on where she got the crazy idea that Ukraine was corrupt, because her "ideas" matched what Russian state media was saying. She replied that she got them from the NYT, and provided links.  :rofl:

Naturally, as all the corrupt MSM does, they sent her the email as the story was being "finalized", hoping they didn't get a reply on time while being able to say they asked her for one.

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/03/21/priceless-ny-times-asked-candace-owens-where-she-got-her-ideas-about-ukraine-then-it-got-awkward-for-the-nyt/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 22, 2022, 02:07:40 PM
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/russia-logistics-china-mres/?fbclid=IwAR0lBQ-w36GooR_H-BS2H8UIE5NTrXNZooUH8jsoPk0UKeOA9BguBokNh2Y

I wonder how good the Chinese MREs are.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 22, 2022, 02:40:07 PM
I wonder how good the Chinese MREs are.

The YouTube video on the page you linked would seem to answer that question.

https://youtu.be/n96m5lB8nzA
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Fly320s on March 22, 2022, 02:58:44 PM
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/russia-logistics-china-mres/?fbclid=IwAR0lBQ-w36GooR_H-BS2H8UIE5NTrXNZooUH8jsoPk0UKeOA9BguBokNh2Y

I wonder how good the Chinese MREs are.

They are pretty good, but after you eat one you get hungry again 30 minutes later.  :rofl:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 22, 2022, 03:00:04 PM
(https://www.ajournalofmusicalthings.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Family-Guy-Ipacec.gif)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 22, 2022, 06:05:03 PM
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/russia-logistics-china-mres/?fbclid=IwAR0lBQ-w36GooR_H-BS2H8UIE5NTrXNZooUH8jsoPk0UKeOA9BguBokNh2Y

I wonder how good the Chinese MREs are.

From the caption on one of the pictures in the article:

Quote
Ukrainian servicemen get ready to repel an attack in Ukraine’s Lugansk region on February 24, 2022. – Russian President Vladimir Putin launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine on Thursday, killing dozens and forcing hundreds to flee for their lives in the pro-Western neighbour.

"Killing dozens and forcing hundreds to flee for their lives" sounds like a bad weekend in Chicago, or maybe a Syrian/Palestinian rocket attack into Israel.  Not a full-scale invasion of a country with a population of 40 million or more.

It's so hard to take any news seriously any more.

Who is "Task and Purpose?"  What's their schtick and claim to credibility?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 22, 2022, 08:18:06 PM
They claim to be military (either vets or experts), and report on military centric stories and events. "Task and Purpose " is an outdated reference to Army OP ORDER  writing.

They are generally considered by the military to be full of *expletive deleted*it.  Personally,  I can say when they have reported on events I was present for, they have been wildly inaccurate in their guesses on causation,  and not particularly good on even the 5Ws.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 23, 2022, 08:44:45 AM
They claim to be military (either vets or experts), and report on military centric stories and events. "Task and Purpose " is an outdated reference to Army OP ORDER  writing.

They are generally considered by the military to be full of *expletive deleted*it.  Personally,  I can say when they have reported on events I was present for, they have been wildly inaccurate in their guesses on causation,  and not particularly good on even the 5Ws.
Maybe that's their assigned role, spreading poor information and bad intel. The war among intelligence agencies never ends apparently. We are all living in the battlespace whether we acknowledge it or not.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Viking on March 23, 2022, 08:47:57 AM

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/russia-logistics-china-mres/?fbclid=IwAR0lBQ-w36GooR_H-BS2H8UIE5NTrXNZooUH8jsoPk0UKeOA9BguBokNh2Y

I wonder how good the Chinese MREs are.

The YouTube video on the page you linked would seem to answer that question.

https://youtu.be/n96m5lB8nzA
It's worth noting that Steve's only gotten sick ONCE from trying out MREs - and that was when he ate a NON-EXPIRED Chinese MRE. Eating hardtack dated to the US Civil War? No problem. Eating canned beef that dated to the first Boer War? No issue there. But our boy Steve almost got done in by whatever foulness the CCP feeds its soldiers with.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 23, 2022, 10:02:28 AM
I just saw a snippet on Fox Business that said civilian gun sales (or at least applications for) in Poland have doubled. I don't know where all their stats came from so don't know how accurate they are, though they did interview a Polish gun dealer who gave a few bits of data. Some fun facts:

It takes 3-6 months to get a permit, cost $500.
Background check, classroom work, and live fire tests required.
The most popular items right now are 9MM Glocks and ARs. The AR cost is $1000.*
A tidbit given by the Fox reporter: 1:100 gun/person ratio in Poland. 125:100 ratio in US.

*"Glock may have just meant 9MM pistol. The AR cost was the reporter pointing at one and asking how much it cost. I couldn't see the rifle pointed to.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 23, 2022, 11:03:24 AM
But our boy Steve almost got done in by whatever foulness the CCP feeds its soldiers with.
To be fair to the Chinese, it's hard to be confident on how Steve's Chinese MREs got to him.  Maybe they were part of a batch that were rejected by the Chinese military on quality grounds then sold to foreigners on the black market because screw the gweilo.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 23, 2022, 11:08:45 AM
To be fair to the Chinese, it's hard to be confident on how Steve's Chinese MREs got to him.  Maybe they were part of a batch that were rejected by the Chinese military on quality grounds then sold to foreigners on the black market because screw the gweilo.

Along with a bunch of aircraft parts
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: zxcvbob on March 23, 2022, 11:19:15 AM
https://babylonbee.com/news/99-of-americans-support-sending-mitt-romney-to-fight-in-ukraine
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 23, 2022, 12:11:34 PM
https://babylonbee.com/news/99-of-americans-support-sending-mitt-romney-to-fight-in-ukraine
So a satire site is now reporting real news?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 23, 2022, 12:18:11 PM
As a side note I just checked gun broker and people are asking $11k+ for the same Russian Vepr I paid $1,100 for which included a $400-500 Iron Wood SVD stock.
So ~$600 to $11k+  :O

Yikes. It's going to stay in the gun safe now.

Yes I know gun broker can be wacko. ~$3k would be more realistic in my mind.
I guess I need to check that out at some point.  I have a 5.45 Vepr that I could live without if the money was approaching that. 

I wonder if Saiga's are selling well.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Viking on March 23, 2022, 12:43:09 PM
To be fair to the Chinese, it's hard to be confident on how Steve's Chinese MREs got to him.  Maybe they were part of a batch that were rejected by the Chinese military on quality grounds then sold to foreigners on the black market because screw the gweilo.
I watched videos of the flooding in China last year. Along with countless other videos and photos of shoddy Chinese EVERYTHING. Wasn't there a long while where all the Chinese who could afford it bought foreign baby formula because the domestic ones were toxic? I dont really feel confident, man.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 23, 2022, 04:41:55 PM
Reportedly 6  Russian generals now have been killed. And now a Lt. Col has been reportedly captured

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60830013?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=623b550d4f71af55b46155dc%26Ukrainians%20capture%20lieutenant%20colonel%20-%20Western%20official%262022-03-23T17%3A54%3A38.543Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:a4bddd11-f729-424f-a092-d09564e8f1ce&pinned_post_asset_id=623b550d4f71af55b46155dc&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 23, 2022, 04:43:42 PM
Quote
Anatoly Chubais has stepped down as Vladimir Putin’s international envoy and is reportedly in Turkey with his wife.

Reuters reported that he had resigned because of the war in Ukraine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60830013?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=623b57381fea84616a6cc7a4%26Resignation%20of%20Putin%20envoy%20%27significant%27%20but%20%27won%27t%20undermine%20regime%27%262022-03-23T18%3A09%3A10.080Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:8d98b076-7f94-46ef-b3ce-17483585b984&pinned_post_asset_id=623b57381fea84616a6cc7a4&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on March 23, 2022, 05:58:10 PM
This war has hit a little closer to home.  The husband of a female translator used by our preacher on his mission trips to Ukraine in the early 2000s was killed last week.  He was transporting senior citizens in a church van to get their medications from a pharmacy.  This is something he had been doing for several years.
His wife, who was the translator, and two older teenage children had already evacuated Lviv for safer environs.  He stayed behind because he believed it was his calling from the Lord to help senior citizens in this way despite the circumstances in Lviv.
Three Russian soldiers stopped his van and pulled him from the driver's seat.  He was executed in the street, supposedly because he was a male of military age.  His body was left in the street, and no one was allowed to recover it for burial.  The senior citizens in the van were not harmed.
Our preacher has remained close to this family over the years, and he is really hurt by what happened to his friend.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 23, 2022, 06:03:53 PM
This war has hit a little closer to home.  The husband of a female translator used by our preacher on his mission trips to Ukraine in the early 2000s was killed last week.  He was transporting senior citizens in a church van to get their medications from a pharmacy.  This is something he had been doing for several years.
His wife, who was the translator, and two older teenage children had already evacuated Lviv for safer environs.  He stayed behind because he believed it was his calling from the Lord to help senior citizens in this way despite the circumstances in Lviv.
Three Russian soldiers stopped his van and pulled him from the driver's seat.  He was executed in the street, supposedly because he was a male of military age.  His body was left in the street, and no one was allowed to recover it for burial.  The senior citizens in the van were not harmed.
Our preacher has remained close to this family over the years, and he is really hurt by what happened to his friend.
They are also making men strip down to check their tattoos. If you have any tattoos that they consider aligning you with the current government or the Nazi's you're toast.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on March 23, 2022, 06:46:04 PM
https://babylonbee.com/news/99-of-americans-support-sending-mitt-romney-to-fight-in-ukraine
Anyone can be a paratrooper once.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on March 23, 2022, 06:47:10 PM
They are also making men strip down to check their tattoos. If you have any tattoos that they consider aligning you with the current government or the Nazi's you're toast.

That is why you don’t surrender. Also why I am tired of the whataboutists.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 23, 2022, 07:03:52 PM
This war has hit a little closer to home.  The husband of a female translator used by our preacher on his mission trips to Ukraine in the early 2000s was killed last week.  He was transporting senior citizens in a church van to get their medications from a pharmacy.  This is something he had been doing for several years.
His wife, who was the translator, and two older teenage children had already evacuated Lviv for safer environs.  He stayed behind because he believed it was his calling from the Lord to help senior citizens in this way despite the circumstances in Lviv.
Three Russian soldiers stopped his van and pulled him from the driver's seat.  He was executed in the street, supposedly because he was a male of military age.  His body was left in the street, and no one was allowed to recover it for burial.  The senior citizens in the van were not harmed.
Our preacher has remained close to this family over the years, and he is really hurt by what happened to his friend.

Lviv is in the western part of Ukraine. I didn't think the Russians were anywhere near Lviv.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on March 23, 2022, 07:15:25 PM
Lviv is in the western part of Ukraine. I didn't think the Russians were anywhere near Lviv.

I thought he said Lviv, though it's possible that's where his translator took their kids to be safe.  I might have misheard and confused locations.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Viking on March 23, 2022, 07:43:31 PM
Reportedly 6  Russian generals now have been killed. And now a Lt. Col has been reportedly captured

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60830013?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=623b550d4f71af55b46155dc%26Ukrainians%20capture%20lieutenant%20colonel%20-%20Western%20official%262022-03-23T17%3A54%3A38.543Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:a4bddd11-f729-424f-a092-d09564e8f1ce&pinned_post_asset_id=623b550d4f71af55b46155dc&pinned_post_type=share
https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/tk81u1/list_of_deadcaptured_russian_officers_mar_22_more/
100 officers dead, wounded or MIA. One got run over by his own men. :rofl:
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 23, 2022, 09:30:41 PM
Enter The Chieftain

Watching at time of posting

Why you can't draw great conclusions from the Ukraine videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 23, 2022, 10:05:24 PM
That is why you don’t surrender. Also why I am tired of the whataboutists.
Zelinsky is a murderous thug and dictator. Ukraine isn't much of a "democracy". More than likely Z and his thugs are being run by the company.

Hard pass on going to war with Russia over a puppet state.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 23, 2022, 10:34:31 PM
Majority of Finns now support joining NATO:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/finland-shows-strong-support-for-nato-poll

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on March 23, 2022, 11:56:18 PM
Zelinsky is a murderous thug and dictator. Ukraine isn't much of a "democracy". More than likely Z and his thugs are being run by the company.

Hard pass on going to war with Russia over a puppet state.



Granted I’m not an expert on Ukraine, but I thought he was some low level celebrity before getting elected.  What’s the evidence for him being murderous, a thug and a dictator?  I mean, last I heard he hadn’t canceled elections and declared himself President for life, or disappeared a bunch of critics.  I’m sure he’s corrupt as hell, but so is pretty much everyone there (not to mention in DC).  Not saying he’s a good guy, as I doubt there’s any good guys involved (including the Biden admin).

Regardless, totally agree with you on the hard pass.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on March 24, 2022, 12:00:36 AM
Zelinsky is a murderous thug and dictator. Ukraine isn't much of a "democracy". More than likely Z and his thugs are being run by the company.

Hard pass on going to war with Russia over a puppet state.
;/
I never said go to war. But we are going to as incompetently as possible either by accident or what looks like an accident.

Run by the CIA, they finally did something so good 70% of his country approves of him.

Dictator. Well, only other place I heard that was Carlson and now I question every other thing I have liked that Carlson has said. He is bought and paid for. His op-ed calling Zelensky a dictator was so rife with lack of context and lies of omission that there is no way it was an accident. The TV stations shut down,  owned by Medvedchuk of the banned minority party. Just an ordinary TV station owner with a daughter. Whose godfather is V. Putin. Nope, nothing to see here. The banned party was probably going to be the installed puppet government.

And if I was wrong on everything and the government is rotten to the core and fooled everyone I still have nothing but admiration for the people of Ukraine.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 24, 2022, 07:37:31 AM
And if I was wrong on everything and the government is rotten to the core and fooled everyone I still have nothing but admiration for the people of Ukraine.

This is a war where I can get behind supporting the average citizens of both countries. Ukrainian citizens are getting the worst of it, but Russian citizens who want nothing more than to live their lives are having their lives destroyed by all the "boycotts" of the woke entities of the world. The Russian government and Russian war effort are little impacted by those boycotts and censures, but it's certainly slamming Russian citizens.

At some point this war will be over, and I think Russian citizens are going to remember what the world did to them - not as a defensive strategy to end the war, but because all the cool kids were doing it.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ron on March 24, 2022, 07:45:03 AM
The Ukraine government is more corrupt than the Biden administration, that's saying something.

That Americans are still trusting the same crowd that gave us Iraq, Afghanistan and other lowlights in foreign policy just shows you how well propaganda works.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 24, 2022, 08:40:12 AM
Russian “Cope Cages” and how Bar/Slat/Mesh Protections Broadly Work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtLnKhppxUU
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on March 24, 2022, 08:54:02 AM
This is a war where I can get behind supporting the average citizens of both countries. Ukrainian citizens are getting the worst of it, but Russian citizens who want nothing more than to live their lives are having their lives destroyed by all the "boycotts" of the woke entities of the world. The Russian government and Russian war effort are little impacted by those boycotts and censures, but it's certainly slamming Russian citizens.

At some point this war will be over, and I think Russian citizens are going to remember what the world did to them - not as a defensive strategy to end the war, but because all the cool kids were doing it.

 No, all enablers.Through apathy they built this war machine. Their economic pain is the best weapon.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 24, 2022, 08:58:17 AM
No, all enablers.Through apathy they built this war machine. Their economic pain is the best weapon.

We could say the same about US citizens and Biden. Or Trump. Or Obama. Or Bush. Or Afghanistan. Or 9/11. Or the Patriot Act.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 24, 2022, 09:14:05 AM


At some point this war will be over, and I think Russian citizens are going to remember what the world did to them - not as a defensive strategy to end the war, but because all the cool kids were doing it.

And that is what German citizens remember happing after WW1 and what did we get?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 24, 2022, 09:26:34 AM
And that is what German citizens remember happing after WW1 and what did we get?

Can also be pointed out that doing nothing worked out so well for the allies during the 30s
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 24, 2022, 09:36:22 AM
Can also be pointed out that doing nothing worked out so well for the allies during the 30s

To be clear, I'm not talking about sanctions against the Russian government - energy embargoes and such, which yes, do impact Russian citizens, but as an effect of the measures against the government.

I'm talking about crap like Netflix, Youtube, and Facebook banning not the Russian government, but individual Russians. Or other woke entities not attacking the Russian government, but Russian citizens. None of these thing critically affect Russian citizens (maybe things like Russian youtubers losing their livelihoods). They certainly affect psychology. The world's woke slapping Ukrainian flags on everything and wishing miserable death to people living in Russian villages who don't even know what the hell is going on is going to have detrimental effects to any peace with Russia down the road.

https://youtu.be/_0lql3prvnI

https://youtu.be/C4EA8VSZdZ8
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 24, 2022, 09:55:45 AM
Things that go boom

Russian warship destroyed in occupied port of Berdyansk, says Ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60859337
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on March 24, 2022, 10:36:52 AM
Things that go boom

Russian warship destroyed in occupied port of Berdyansk, says Ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60859337

Couldn't tell what ship was flying the British Union Jack.  It was prominent in the drone footage at the beginning of the video.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on March 24, 2022, 10:37:07 AM
We could say the same about US citizens and Biden. Or Trump. Or Obama. Or Bush. Or Afghanistan. Or 9/11. Or the Patriot Act.

And it should be. Until we break our system and fix it. I am proud of my 22 years in the military despite being a cog in Albrights schemes. I served five years on an amphibious assault ship like the ones on fire this morning. But I never laid siege to cities or landed in a foreign port to destroy and install my government.

The WW1 stab in the back myth only had legs because the average Germans didn’t suffer. Their cities stood, they had food, the war didn’t touch German soil. A war of choice that we could blame on other people losing.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on March 24, 2022, 10:41:38 AM
Couldn't tell what ship was flying the British Union Jack.  It was prominent in the drone footage at the beginning of the video.

Russian  Navy jack. Flag on the front of the ship is not the national flag ever.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 24, 2022, 10:53:10 AM
Couldn't tell what ship was flying the British Union Jack.  It was prominent in the drone footage at the beginning of the video.

Russian Naval Jack

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Naval_Jack_of_Russia.svg
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on March 24, 2022, 10:56:08 AM
Russian  Navy jack. Flag on the front of the ship is not the national flag ever.

Russian Naval Jack

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Naval_Jack_of_Russia.svg

Ah, thanks for the info.  Looked like a Union Jack to my untrained eye.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 24, 2022, 11:05:02 AM
Very easy to confuse the two.
Here's a list of Russian Naval Jacks and Flags
Note the National Naval Flag

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_navy_flags
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 24, 2022, 11:47:57 AM
Majority of Finns now support joining NATO:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/finland-shows-strong-support-for-nato-poll

Video popped up this morning
Lots of parallels with today.

Russian Invasion of Finland - The Winter War 1939-40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkxbDwsJo38
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 24, 2022, 11:55:00 AM
Joseph Goebbels would be proud

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60856533?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=623c8dd14f71af55b461574a%26Russian%20TV%20shows%20ruins%20-%20but%20blames%20Ukraine%262022-03-24T15%3A48%3A28.772Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:9efdcdac-390e-4bef-a01c-dd4c26b41075&pinned_post_asset_id=623c8dd14f71af55b461574a&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 24, 2022, 11:57:21 AM
Be careful drawing conclusions from the Ukraine videos.
The Chieftain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 24, 2022, 02:07:22 PM
We could say the same about US citizens and Biden. Or Trump. Or Obama. Or Bush. Or Afghanistan. Or 9/11. Or the Patriot Act.

Democracies are funny things. 

1.  They claim to have charge of their government
2.  They fail to control their government
3.  Their government sends out military adventurism at behest of niche economic interests and draws foreign ire for doing so
4.  Yet somehow the democracy thinks it is immune from retaliation (i.e. "That's Terrorism and you can't do that!") for the actions of its government that it failed to control

At a certain threshold, it is most certainly legitimate to target the populace for supporting its government in warfare.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on March 24, 2022, 02:29:03 PM
Russian Naval Jack

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Naval_Jack_of_Russia.svg

I've never seen it before it looks familiar...
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 24, 2022, 09:33:10 PM
Not unbiased, but worth a read:  https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/03/21/russian-soldiers-admit-heavy-losses-looting-shelling-civilians-in-phone-calls-to-wives-and-mothers/

Allegedly, intercepted phone calls between Russian soldiers and their families.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 24, 2022, 10:19:33 PM
Ukrainians fleeing Mariupol:  https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-the-unlikely-beacon-of-light-for-desperate-families-fleeing-the-devastated-city-of-mariupol-12574471

One couple brought 50 dogs with them.


Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 24, 2022, 10:24:53 PM
Video popped up this morning
Lots of parallels with today.

Russian Invasion of Finland - The Winter War 1939-40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkxbDwsJo38

A more complete documentary on the Winter War:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR2FqMUVZzc
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: K Frame on March 25, 2022, 09:49:21 AM
Boy is THIS a *expletive deleted*ing stab right at the heart of the Russian economic infrastructure...


https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/25/eu-strikes-gas-deal-with-the-us-as-it-seeks-to-cut-its-reliance-on-russia.html

There have been a number of analyses the last week or so that seem to indicate that Russian economic activity is going to be cut by at least 50% through all of the sanctions and this is going to cut even deeper.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RocketMan on March 25, 2022, 10:11:26 AM
Boy is THIS a *expletive deleted*ing stab right at the heart of the Russian economic infrastructure...


https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/25/eu-strikes-gas-deal-with-the-us-as-it-seeks-to-cut-its-reliance-on-russia.html

There have been a number of analyses the last week or so that seem to indicate that Russian economic activity is going to be cut by at least 50% through all of the sanctions and this is going to cut even deeper.

1) The Brandon administration is doing everything it can to impede NG production in this country.
2) The stated goal of the deal with the EU, "...would be to diversify LNG supplies in alignment with climate objectives and reduce demand for natural gas."

I can't help but think the plan is to ship large amounts of LNG to Europe without any real increase in production here in the US.  The end result of that would be less NG available here for consumption, and what remains will be even more expensive.  Yep, that lines up nicely with the Brandon administration's stated "climate objectives".
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 25, 2022, 10:25:34 AM
1) The Brandon administration is doing everything it can to impede NG production in this country.
2) The stated goal of the deal with the EU, "...would be to diversify LNG supplies in alignment with climate objectives and reduce demand for natural gas."

I can't help but think the plan is to ship large amounts of LNG to Europe without any real increase in production here in the US.  The end result of that would be less NG available here for consumption, and what remains will be even more expensive.  Yep, that lines up nicely with the Brandon administration's stated "climate objectives".
Same basic thought occurred to me . . . based on past actions, it's easy to be cynical about Brandon's actions.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 25, 2022, 10:29:31 AM
1) The Brandon administration is doing everything it can to impede NG production in this country.
2) The stated goal of the deal with the EU, "...would be to diversify LNG supplies in alignment with climate objectives and reduce demand for natural gas."

I can't help but think the plan is to ship large amounts of LNG to Europe without any real increase in production here in the US.  The end result of that would be less NG available here for consumption, and what remains will be even more expensive.  Yep, that lines up nicely with the Brandon administration's stated "climate objectives".

Brother works in NG drilling. Company he works for has been sitting idle and he has been sitting at home the past year.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 25, 2022, 10:31:00 AM
This reads like they have given up on taking Kyiv.
Or Kyiv was just a diversion which is something I've had in the back of my mind for awhile

Russia to focus war on eastern Ukraine - Russian army chief
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60856533?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=623dc8bd5fbc655faa01edbe%26Russia%20to%20focus%20war%20on%20eastern%20Ukraine%20-%20Russian%20army%20chief%262022-03-25T13%3A59%3A44.772Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:de581b0c-fa8e-48e7-87e9-1ab59763aa84&pinned_post_asset_id=623dc8bd5fbc655faa01edbe&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: K Frame on March 25, 2022, 10:31:43 AM
Oh good, it wasn't just me who had that thought as to what Brandon's doing.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 25, 2022, 10:40:28 AM
It's a drop in the bucket compared to the EU's needs, and Germany doesn't even have facilities to take it.  I would guess other EU nations are in the same boat after the Greens in the EU killed off so much of the fossil fuel and nuke infrastructure.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 25, 2022, 11:16:46 AM
Brother works in NG drilling. Company he works for has been sitting idle and he has been sitting at home the past year.

Yes we are sitting on a lot of LNG but we are limited on how much we can drill and how much we can export.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 25, 2022, 02:18:35 PM
Biden just told the 82nd airborne what they will see when they go into Ukraine on live tv.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: grampster on March 25, 2022, 02:23:55 PM
Biden just told the 82nd airborne what they will see when they go into Ukraine on live tv.

He also said if Putin uses chemical warfare we will reply in kind. 

Since he's working overtime to get us in WWIII, I suggest he only draft those who voted for him.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on March 25, 2022, 02:27:35 PM
Biden just told the 82nd airborne what they will see when they go into Ukraine on live tv.

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-25-22/h_4c1f7739c8d33db34db09d8df1450390
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 25, 2022, 02:32:04 PM
Quote
The commanding officer of the 37th Motor Rifle Brigade, a colonel, was deliberately run over by his own troops as a result of the scale of losses taken by his brigade, the official said.
Quote
A seventh general (commander of the 49th Combined Arms Army) was also killed. The Kremlin has not yet responded to the claims.

Russian colonel killed by own men - Western official
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60856533?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=623dde6c5fbc655faa01ee04%26Russian%20colonel%20killed%20by%20own%20men%20-%20Western%20official%262022-03-25T17%3A18%3A14.419Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:e309f36b-d6ca-4199-ad96-c2262c83d9a3&pinned_post_asset_id=623dde6c5fbc655faa01ee04&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 25, 2022, 02:33:38 PM
He also said if Putin uses chemical warfare we will reply in kind. 

Since he's working overtime to get us in WWIII, I suggest he only draft those who voted for him.

Unless you consider tear gas to be chemical warfare, I don't think the US has any stocks left of offensive chemical weapons.  The Army put a lot of money and technology into disposing of the nerve gas and other agents stored in the chemical depots.  The Umatilla Depot in Oregon had all the weapons destroyed by 2011, closed in 2018 and is now a business park, range land and a National Guard training facility.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Boomhauer on March 25, 2022, 02:46:09 PM
Unless you consider tear gas to be chemical warfare, I don't think the US has any stocks left of offensive chemical weapons.  The Army put a lot of money and technology into disposing of the nerve gas and other agents stored in the chemical depots.  The Umatilla Depot in Oregon had all the weapons destroyed by 2011, closed in 2018 and is now a business park, range land and a National Guard training facility.

None of that matters because for us nuclear is an “in kind” response so Biden is saying we are going to nuke Russia if they use chemical warfare.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 25, 2022, 03:42:29 PM
Clean up on isle B.

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/03/25/white-house-fact-checkers-attempt-to-clean-up-what-biden-told-us-troops-about-ukraine/

Love the fact check. Biden did not say what you heard him say.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 25, 2022, 04:40:13 PM
None of that matters because for us nuclear is an “in kind” response so Biden is saying we are going to nuke Russia if they use chemical warfare.

Huh. We, and as far as I know the rest of the Western world did not do squat when Syria was using chemical weapons (Sarin, chlorine and mustard gas) on their citizens.  Now we start to rattle the tactical nukes for Ukraine?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on March 25, 2022, 04:46:20 PM
Huh. We, and as far as I know the rest of the Western world did not do squat when Syria was using chemical weapons (Sarin, chlorine and mustard gas) on their citizens.  Now we start to rattle the tactical nukes for Ukraine?

I'm waiting for some "pundit" to talk about white people vs tan people.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MechAg94 on March 25, 2022, 05:27:19 PM
Huh. We, and as far as I know the rest of the Western world did not do squat when Syria was using chemical weapons (Sarin, chlorine and mustard gas) on their citizens.  Now we start to rattle the tactical nukes for Ukraine?
We bombed some stuff.  Then there was talk that the use of chemical weapons may have been a false flag operation which happens quite often in that region. 

Considering a lot of people seemed to want Trump to do a full scale invasion, I lean on the "false flag operation" side.  Not that the Syrian leaders are not bad, just that the "rebels" are bad also. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: bedlamite on March 25, 2022, 08:07:59 PM
https://timcast.com/news/biden-tells-the-82nd-airborne-theyre-going-to-ukraine-video/

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: kgbsquirrel on March 25, 2022, 08:21:28 PM
1) The Brandon administration is doing everything it can to impede NG production in this country.
2) The stated goal of the deal with the EU, "...would be to diversify LNG supplies in alignment with climate objectives and reduce demand for natural gas."

I can't help but think the plan is to ship large amounts of LNG to Europe without any real increase in production here in the US.  The end result of that would be less NG available here for consumption, and what remains will be even more expensive.  Yep, that lines up nicely with the Brandon administration's stated "climate objectives".

+1
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 25, 2022, 08:31:23 PM
Russian defence minister 'suffers heart attack'
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60856533?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=623e529a5fbc655faa01eef6%26Russian%20defence%20minister%20%27suffers%20heart%20attack%27%262022-03-26T00%3A28%3A32.826Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:827151fd-9806-4cab-b5bd-159152793488&pinned_post_asset_id=623e529a5fbc655faa01eef6&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 26, 2022, 11:15:55 AM
Sergei Rudskoy, head of the General Staff's main operations administration says:  "The main tasks of the first stage of the operation have been carried out."  "The combat capabilities of the Ukrainian armed forces have been substantially reduced, which allows us to concentrate our main efforts on achieving the main goal: the liberation of Donbas"

Perhaps after this fiasco, the Russians have decided to just try to hold Donbas and claim success?  Course it's a war, who knows what they'll actually do.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 26, 2022, 11:30:45 AM
Minor correction:

Sergei Rudskoy, head of the General Staff's main operations administration says:  "The main tasks of the first stage of the operation have been carried out."  "The combat capabilities of the Ukrainian armed forces have been substantially reduced, which allows us to concentrate our main efforts on achieving the main goal: the liberation annexation of Donbas"
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 26, 2022, 11:57:01 AM
The pastor of our church put me on to this article from last year. FWIW, he's been to Ukraine 2 or 3 times over the past several years, and is still in contact with at least one pastor there.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/may/ukraine-evangelicals-politics-conservative-movement-council.html

Quote
“The shortage of good leaders is so intense, parties are starting to recruit in the churches,” said Unguryan. “Honest and responsible politicians are easiest to find there.”

Last October, more than 500 evangelicals were elected to all levels of government. One even heads a major city—Rivne, in western Ukraine—as mayor. With evangelicals comprising only 2 percent of Ukraine’s 40 million people, it is a significant achievement.

Quote
78 percent of Ukrainians distrust state officials, and 71 percent distrust politicians, according to a 2020 poll by the Razumkov Center. But the church is trusted by 63 percent, second only to the army, trusted by 65 percent.

Quote
First elected in 1998, Oleksandr Turchynov, a Baptist from Kiev, became a trusted lawmaker in Yulia Tymoshenko’s Fatherland party....

Turchynov was elected speaker of parliament and appointed interim president when Yanukovych fled. As Russian forces occupied the Crimea and surrounding provinces that same year, he armed the Ukrainian resistance while petitioning the United Nations.

“Russian propaganda called Turchynov the ‘bloody pastor,’ but it backfired,” said Ruslan Mailuta, a Ukrainian consultant with the World Evangelical Alliance. “Ukrainians viewed him with respect, as an evangelical who stood up for his country.”

Until that point, many evangelicals were drawn to Russian president Vladimir Putin’s rhetoric for conservative values. But currently...very few evangelicals support the party.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 26, 2022, 07:14:25 PM
Biden is trying hard to get us nuked.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Boomhauer on March 26, 2022, 08:32:51 PM
Biden is trying hard to get us nuked.

What did he say in his address today?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 26, 2022, 08:34:29 PM
Putin can't stay in power.

So Putin will go on TV and say the USA is trying to wipe him out.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 28, 2022, 11:45:34 AM
Putin can't stay in power.

So Putin will go on TV and say the USA is trying to wipe him out.

I love how simultaneity while they're praising it for being among the greatest speeches ever they're also saying he didn't actually say much of it. 
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 28, 2022, 12:13:27 PM
It's another in a long line of you didn't hear Biden say what you heard Biden say.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 28, 2022, 12:22:38 PM
Hmmm

Quote
Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich and Ukrainian peace negotiators reportedly suffered symptoms of suspected poisoning when they met to discuss peace negotiations earlier this month, several news sources have claimed.

Abramovich, along with another Russian entrepreneur, had taken part in the negotiations alongside Crimean Tatar lawmaker Rustem Umerov.

Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich suffered suspected poisoning, reports say
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60890199?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6241da105fbc655faa01f419%26Russian%20oligarch%20Roman%20Abramovich%20suffered%20suspected%20poisoning%2C%20reports%20say%262022-03-28T16%3A16%3A53.882Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:43ad70f4-c95b-436b-8235-9047ebe09961&pinned_post_asset_id=6241da105fbc655faa01f419&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: sumpnz on March 28, 2022, 01:20:55 PM
Hmmm

Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich suffered suspected poisoning, reports say
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60890199?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6241da105fbc655faa01f419%26Russian%20oligarch%20Roman%20Abramovich%20suffered%20suspected%20poisoning%2C%20reports%20say%262022-03-28T16%3A16%3A53.882Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:43ad70f4-c95b-436b-8235-9047ebe09961&pinned_post_asset_id=6241da105fbc655faa01f419&pinned_post_type=share

The dioxin tea is lovely.  Thank you.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 28, 2022, 02:04:47 PM
Sources close to Abramovich confirm suspected poisoning
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60890199?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6241e4af1fea84616a6cd11b%26Sources%20close%20to%20Abramovich%20confirm%20suspected%20poisoning%262022-03-28T16%3A53%3A05.024Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:367b2575-680a-4a59-b710-4e2740c95e69&pinned_post_asset_id=6241e4af1fea84616a6cd11b&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 28, 2022, 02:07:28 PM
The dioxin tea is lovely.  Thank you.

I hear it's to die for
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 28, 2022, 02:27:29 PM
Honestly, I could go 50/50 on whether Russia or Ukraine did it.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 28, 2022, 03:58:29 PM
It's another in a long line of you didn't hear Biden say what you heard Biden say.

Now it's because he's Irish

Quote
    Leon Panetta says on CNN that Biden’s gaffe in Europe about regime change came about because Biden is Irish, and his instinct to internalize human suffering may have overwhelmed him to the point where he was not careful about what he said. Biden needs more discipline Panetta says

    — Gordon Lubold (@glubold) March 28, 2022
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/03/28/former-secdef-leon-panetta-has-a-theory-why-biden-made-the-gaffe-about-putin/


This is why I drink


Like an Irishman   :P
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 28, 2022, 06:51:18 PM
Now Biden says it a lie. He didn't say any of that stuff.

They don't want to 25th him because she is an idiot but I'm starting to wonder if we make it to January 2025.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 28, 2022, 08:00:20 PM
Russian army expert Igor Strelkov: "MY WORST FEARS CAME TRUE, we got stuck in a long & bloody war"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUTyQfev3Ss
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 28, 2022, 08:05:10 PM
Ukrainians have retaken control of Irpin, says mayor
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60890199?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6241c61c1fea84616a6cd101%26Ukrainians%20have%20retaken%20control%20of%20Irpin%2C%20says%20mayor%262022-03-28T14%3A45%3A45.121Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:147d50a6-061c-4cc6-985f-d7b763bb26d6&pinned_post_asset_id=6241c61c1fea84616a6cd101&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 28, 2022, 09:12:07 PM
I saw some video linked on another site purporting to show Ukrainian soldiers (not sure if regular or militia) abusing Russian captives. I noticed a lot of the captives had bloody leg and groin injuries. Then at the end one of the Ukrainians walked up to three mobile Russians and shot them in the legs and knees.

War is pretty nasty.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 28, 2022, 10:37:50 PM
I saw some video linked on another site purporting to show Ukrainian soldiers (not sure if regular or militia) abusing Russian captives. I noticed a lot of the captives had bloody leg and groin injuries. Then at the end one of the Ukrainians walked up to three mobile Russians and shot them in the legs and knees.

War is pretty nasty.

If you look at what the soviets and russians have done to them since 1919 IDGAF.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 28, 2022, 10:45:29 PM

(https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1327935785l/828387.jpg)

link (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/828387.A_Short_History_of_Tractors_in_Ukrainian)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: kgbsquirrel on March 28, 2022, 10:53:29 PM
I saw some video linked on another site purporting to show Ukrainian soldiers (not sure if regular or militia) abusing Russian captives. I noticed a lot of the captives had bloody leg and groin injuries. Then at the end one of the Ukrainians walked up to three mobile Russians and shot them in the legs and knees.

War is pretty nasty.

That's one way to ensure they don't immediately rejoin the fight after repatriation.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 29, 2022, 01:12:01 AM
That's one way to ensure they don't immediately rejoin the fight after repatriation.
Yeah, it is certainly more efficient than imprisoning them, and if you are going to send them back to Russia you are simultaneously adding to Russia’s logistical and financial burdens while removing the immediate threat of that soldier reentering combat.

Still pretty brutal to see guys taking rifle rounds point blank to the legs.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 29, 2022, 05:34:15 AM
That's the kind of thing that will get you a trip to The Hague.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 29, 2022, 08:05:41 AM
That's the kind of thing that will get you a trip to The Hague.

Well, maybe if you're Russia. It seems that, in the US at least, it's like Ukraine has announced that they are gender transitioning, so they are popular and can do no wrong. If the video is accurate and the abuse is widespread and not a one-off incident, it will be interesting to see how the world reacts.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 29, 2022, 08:29:17 AM
Americans like to think wars are like video games. You know, when there are flames shooting out of a hit tank they don't think about about the 4 guys inside. It's just a video game.  :O

Yeah if widespread they should go full force on whomever. 

I'm sure there's some really crazy *expletive deleted*it going on we're not seeing.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 29, 2022, 08:41:50 AM
Meanwhile

Reports Russia force have ceased offensive operations around Kyiv.
Also reports the Ukrainians have recaptured two towns outside Kyiv
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on March 29, 2022, 09:11:08 AM
Meanwhile

Reports Russia force have ceased offensive operations around Kyiv.
Also reports the Ukrainians have recaptured two towns outside Kyiv

Heard that this morning as well on CNN.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Boomhauer on March 29, 2022, 09:35:46 AM
The Russians are reportedly killing civilians intentionally so…I really don’t give a *expletive deleted*ck what the Ukrainians are doing to their POWs/captives/detainees
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 29, 2022, 09:58:56 AM
The Russians are reportedly killing civilians intentionally so…I really don’t give a *expletive deleted*ck what the Ukrainians are doing to their POWs/captives/detainees

Well, I kind of do.  Two wrongs don't make a right and all that.  POW's should be treated in accordance to international convention.  Any party breaking that should absolutely be condemned.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 29, 2022, 10:20:18 AM
Let me know when there's a war where every soldier plays by the "rules".
Not justifying anything just staying aware of the reality of human conflict in all of history
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on March 29, 2022, 10:29:25 AM
Let me know when there's a war where every soldier plays by the "rules".
Not justifying anything just staying aware of the reality of human conflict in all of history

That's fair, and I suppose a one-off isn't unexpected, although still needs addressed.  If it's systemic, that is a problem IMO.

But that's easy to say behind a keyboard, in a warm house, not in a life-or-death armed fight for national existence.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 29, 2022, 10:33:26 AM
Couple of points:

1. Yes, folks act badly in every war.  US soldiers even act badly in war.  That should not be tolerated.

2. Unlike many BS ROE restrictions and touchy feely crap, rules on the treatment of POW's have a very real effect on the war.  Torturing and maiming POW's is how you end up with armies not surrendering even when they have lost, and really brutal outcomes.  There are solid reasons to treat your prisoners correctly, even if your opponent is not.

3. It's becoming pretty clear that NATO (us) is going to get sucked into this bullshit conflict sooner or later.  I would prefer not to have to shoot an "ally" in the face because they have made a habit of committing war crimes.

4. Again, we don't have to pick a side here. Bad and Not-as-Bad are fighting, due to bad government.  That's no reason to be "OK" with 18 year old draftees being kneecapped because they avoided being shot by their Замполит. *


*Political Officer (https://romeosquared.eu/2018/09/10/political-officers-return-to-russian-military/)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: charby on March 29, 2022, 10:49:29 AM
When I first "thought" that Putin (and his merry band of kool-aid drinkers) were committing war crimes against the Ukrainian people, I looked up where the Interntional Court in The Hague were at in their missions. Seeing that past things that Putin did was still in going to investigation mode and not stared due to lack of funding, I pretty much lost hope in the International Community punishing Putin, et. al. when this is all over.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on March 29, 2022, 10:51:38 AM
Couple of points:

1. Yes, folks act badly in every war.  US soldiers even act badly in war.  That should not be tolerated.

2. Unlike many BS ROE restrictions and touchy feely crap, rules on the treatment of POW's have a very real effect on the war.  Torturing and maiming POW's is how you end up with armies not surrendering even when they have lost, and really brutal outcomes.  There are solid reasons to treat your prisoners correctly, even if your opponent is not.

3. It's becoming pretty clear that NATO (us) is going to get sucked into this bullshit conflict sooner or later.  I would prefer not to have to shoot an "ally" in the face because they have made a habit of committing war crimes.

4. Again, we don't have to pick a side here. Bad and Not-as-Bad are fighting, due to bad government.  That's no reason to be "OK" with 18 year old draftees being kneecapped because they avoided being shot by their Замполит. *


*Political Officer (https://romeosquared.eu/2018/09/10/political-officers-return-to-russian-military/)

All good points. Though they are dying off, there is an older generation of Americans who were able to lay aside their differences with the krauts after WW2, but will never forgive the japs.

Certainly the Gestapo and SS committed atrocities to allied prisoners, but I think those were the exception, not the rule. The krauts weren't eating the livers of their prisoners.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on March 29, 2022, 11:17:00 AM
dogmush is right.

I saw the video.  It is vile.  Assuming it is real (and it looked very real) I doubt any of the wounded survived the event.

In addition to being evil, it is mind numbingly stupid.  Ukraine is dependent of military aid to continue fighting.  Commiting war crimes endangers their aid.  Russia is holding thousands of Ukrainian evacuees.  This puts them all in even worse danger than they were before.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: MillCreek on March 29, 2022, 11:52:45 AM
The krauts weren't eating the livers of their prisoners.

The Chinese and the Russians have not forgotten Unit 731.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 29, 2022, 12:03:00 PM
I can't say that I blame the Ukrainians for maiming captured Russian soldiers.

Were the same to happen in the US (queue Red Dawn), I rather doubt US forces, fighting a defensive war on our home turf, would give a sh!t about POW rules.

I acknowledge the difference between uniformed regular forces fighting an urban guerrilla insurgency versus irregular civilians, but I also suspect that at this point the Ukraine resistance is heavily bolstered by irregular forces who are not technically protected by Hague Conventions anyways.  Once they start fighting, they're not protected by them, so treatment of POW's doesn't matter, and they probably know fellow countrymen and women who have been kidnapped from Ukraine and taken into Russia (since Russia has been pulling that sh!t in the last week or two).  Kill them, hurt them, maim them, demoralize them, shame them, terrorize them.  Do whatever it takes to make them fear coming to your country more than the repercussions of disobedience back at home.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 29, 2022, 12:13:36 PM
Well Putin did bring in the Chechens so I'm sure they have seen some unimaginable things done to their own people.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 29, 2022, 12:44:55 PM
Detailed look into the video

Some are claiming the video is staged. I don't put it pass either side.
Ukraine said they will be investigating but I'm sure everyone involved, all sides, will believe what they want to believe.

Does video show Russian prisoners being shot?
https://www.bbc.com/news/60907259
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Brad Johnson on March 29, 2022, 12:59:46 PM
Saw a video couple days ago of a treaded vehicle turning a corner on a country road and summarily smoking a family of three in a small sedan doing nothing more aggressive than approaching the same intersection. That's guaranteed to ratchet down the sympathies a bit. Right or not, proper or not, fair or not, Russian soldiers going home with a hole in their leg should be happy that's all they experienced.

Brad
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 29, 2022, 01:05:43 PM
Saw a video couple days ago of a treaded vehicle turning a corner on a country road and summarily smoking a family of three in a small sedan doing nothing more aggressive than approaching the same intersection. That's guaranteed to ratchet down the sympathies a bit. Right or not, proper or not, fair or not, Russian soldiers going home with a hole in their leg should be happy that's all they experienced.

Brad

Been a few like that.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 29, 2022, 01:06:27 PM
Well Putin did bring in the Chechens so I'm sure they have seen some unimaginable things done to their own people.

And Syrians
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Jim147 on March 29, 2022, 01:59:45 PM
And he's bringing in Wagner Group. Let's set people on fire and behead them for something to laugh about.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on March 29, 2022, 02:05:19 PM
Right or not, proper or not, fair or not, Russian soldiers going home with a hole in their leg should be happy that's all they experienced.

Brad

I don't think any of the Russian POWs in that video are going to make it home.  At least one was clearly dying and the captors were making comments about killing them.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on March 29, 2022, 04:22:12 PM
"Hey, Dmitri, what say we torture these Russkie prisoners, film it, and post it on the internet!"

"Great idea, Vassily - we'll get a lot of views and drum up a lot of support for our beloved Ukraine!"

Mind numbingly stupid (as Pb pointed out) doesn't begin to describe it - if it's real.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 29, 2022, 06:55:58 PM
Easy enough for Russians to stage it and put it out as propaganda against Ukraine.
Hell, it could be deep fake.  Either is nearly as possible as actual Ukrainians doing it.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 29, 2022, 07:22:43 PM
Just popped up on YT

Explosion at RUSSIAN VILLAGE of Oktyabrsky (near Belgorod city), 12 kilometers from Ukraine border.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee6pVqboaNY
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 29, 2022, 07:24:35 PM
https://t.me/zhest_belgorod/10137
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 29, 2022, 07:40:16 PM
Quote
Nolan Peterson
@nolanwpeterson
I can confirm that Alpha 1, a Ukrainian Foreign Legion team of multinational special operations soldiers, including American volunteers, took part in the liberation of Irpin.
https://twitter.com/nolanwpeterson/status/1508770769211301890
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 29, 2022, 08:10:36 PM
Couple of points:

1. Yes, folks act badly in every war.  US soldiers even act badly in war.  That should not be tolerated.

2. Unlike many BS ROE restrictions and touchy feely crap, rules on the treatment of POW's have a very real effect on the war.  Torturing and maiming POW's is how you end up with armies not surrendering even when they have lost, and really brutal outcomes.  There are solid reasons to treat your prisoners correctly, even if your opponent is not.

3. It's becoming pretty clear that NATO (us) is going to get sucked into this bullshit conflict sooner or later.  I would prefer not to have to shoot an "ally" in the face because they have made a habit of committing war crimes.

4. Again, we don't have to pick a side here. Bad and Not-as-Bad are fighting, due to bad government.  That's no reason to be "OK" with 18 year old draftees being kneecapped because they avoided being shot by their Замполит. *


*Political Officer (https://romeosquared.eu/2018/09/10/political-officers-return-to-russian-military/)

QFT
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on March 29, 2022, 08:19:59 PM
"Hey, Dmitri, what say we torture these Russkie prisoners, film it, and post it on the internet!"

"Great idea, Vassily - we'll get a lot of views and drum up a lot of support for our beloved Ukraine!"

Mind numbingly stupid (as Pb pointed out) doesn't begin to describe it - if it's real.

Remember the US servicemen and women who tortured prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison took photographs.  Torturers do film themselves.  The torture film discussed here may have been made for the amusement of the men doing the crimes.... they probably never intended it to go on the internet. 

You are right, it could be faked.  I kind of doubt it.

I've also seen a few videos of Ukrainian servicemen using the phones of dead Russians to call their loved ones to torment them.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 30, 2022, 09:42:26 AM
Quote
Fighting for Russia will feed my family - Syrian soldier

Syrian fighters are being offer £5,000 a month to fight on the front line for Russia in the war against Ukraine, the BBC has learned.

One Syrian soldier who’s volunteered to fight said he believed Russia was carrying out a massacre in Ukraine, but it was also helping poor Syrians who couldn’t afford to eat.

He said he'd volunteered because of the money on offer. His family doesn’t want him to go, but he was told that they would be paid £37,000 if he was killed.

He said he knew of at least 200 people who had volunteered.

The Ukrainian government and a leading Syrian NGO say 14 recruitment centres have been set up across Syria.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60923158/page/3
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on March 30, 2022, 10:43:55 AM
If a Syrian believes Russia will pay his family £37,000 if he dies, he is a fool.  Russia doesn't care about its own soliders, why would they care about Syrians?
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 30, 2022, 10:52:18 AM

I've also seen a few videos of Ukrainian servicemen using the phones of dead Russians to call their loved ones to torment them.

I wouldn't think servicemen would be allowed to carry their cell phones with them into combat and unlocked at that.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 30, 2022, 11:04:38 AM
Russia claims to have recruited 16,000 Middle East fighters
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60923158?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=62442da61fea84616a6cd44e%26Russia%20claims%20to%20have%20recruited%2016%2C000%20Middle%20East%20fighters%262022-03-30T14%3A15%3A03.847Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:c6d214fe-e143-4769-9418-2fbc8d8cec33&pinned_post_asset_id=62442da61fea84616a6cd44e&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 30, 2022, 12:00:19 PM
I wouldn't think servicemen would be allowed to carry their cell phones with them into combat and unlocked at that.

You'd be mistaken.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 30, 2022, 12:03:45 PM
You'd be mistaken.

Seems like a huge security risk to me.
If they're getting into them and making phone calls that would imply they're unlocked.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Boomhauer on March 30, 2022, 12:57:45 PM
Seems like a huge security risk to me.
If they're getting into them and making phone calls that would imply they're unlocked.

Of course a lot of phones these days use fingerprint or facial recognition so you’d be able to hold the dead guys head up or use his finger to get it unlocked
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 30, 2022, 01:04:06 PM
Of course a lot of phones these days use fingerprint or facial recognition so you’d be able to hold the dead guys head up or use his finger to get it unlocked

Which a big reason why I consider it a security risk
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on March 30, 2022, 02:00:49 PM
Of course a lot of phones these days use fingerprint or facial recognition so you’d be able to hold the dead guys head up or use his finger to get it unlocked

More than a few people would have no problem doing that.


(yes I'm stating the obvious)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: dogmush on March 30, 2022, 02:38:34 PM
Seems like a huge security risk to me.
If they're getting into them and making phone calls that would imply they're unlocked.

Oh, it is a security risk.  A huge one.  You can map out several US bases in Iraq and Afghanistan if you know where to look on the Garmin Connect ap.

That said, getting cell phones away from 20 year olds is more difficult than you'd think in practice.  Where do you think all those videos of US soldiers in combat or on patrol on TikTok come from?  Phones and GoPro's on soldiers.  We generally keep them from live streaming operations, but that's about it.  We also have them on airplane mode when actually out doing stuff.  No point in letting people DF our position.  We also have near constant OPSEC classes.

But yeah, they have phones with them.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 30, 2022, 08:31:03 PM
What if Putin didn't miscalculate?

This article makes some interesting points: https://dnyuz.com/2022/03/29/what-if-putin-didnt-miscalculate/
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on March 31, 2022, 10:13:17 AM
deleted, I can't find the video.  Thanks for point out the bad link.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on March 31, 2022, 10:41:51 AM
Pb, that link goes to a video titled Blind Mans eye starts to die….
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 31, 2022, 11:31:59 AM
Things are about to get interesting over gas
Friday is the deadline over paying in roubles
+ Putin is saying "economic war" against Russia started years ago

Pay in roubles or we'll end gas contracts - Putin
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60923158?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6245ab721fea84616a6cd637%26Pay%20in%20roubles%20or%20we%27ll%20end%20gas%20contracts%20-%20Putin%262022-03-31T13%3A26%3A07.176Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:22a08fd4-0e6b-458d-8641-3c73cd561e2b&pinned_post_asset_id=6245ab721fea84616a6cd637&pinned_post_type=share

UK not looking into Russia gas payments in roubles, says UK PM's spokesman
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60923158?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6245c3334f71af55b4616471%26UK%20not%20looking%20into%20Russia%20gas%20payments%20in%20roubles%2C%20says%20UK%20PM%27s%20spokesman%262022-03-31T15%3A26%3A03.174Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:25f6766b-d6e0-4831-a68e-82e3c89e967b&pinned_post_asset_id=6245c3334f71af55b4616471&pinned_post_type=share

We will not be blackmailed by Putin - Germany
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60923158?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6245afb34f71af55b4616460%26We%20will%20not%20be%20blackmailed%20by%20Putin%20-%20Germany%262022-03-31T13%3A58%3A49.199Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:4ca35c39-04d1-4d86-b91d-62972106d5c9&pinned_post_asset_id=6245afb34f71af55b4616460&pinned_post_type=share

We are not doing charity - Putin on Russian gas
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60923158?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6245ae541fea84616a6cd63e%26We%20are%20not%20doing%20charity%20-%20Putin%20on%20Russian%20gas%262022-03-31T13%3A44%3A36.381Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:f8a683f1-e5cf-4643-a72a-fc303221ae8b&pinned_post_asset_id=6245ae541fea84616a6cd63e&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 31, 2022, 11:35:28 AM
Germany and Austria take step towards gas rationing
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60925016
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: French G. on March 31, 2022, 12:03:11 PM
I definitely understand the don’t commit war crimes. In the large it seems like Ukraine is trying to treat pows well for the PR. Also no doubt they have done some very bad things. Sympathy for the recipients is also non existent. Were  they still in their country there would be no issues.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 31, 2022, 12:56:38 PM
Unconfirmed

Quote
KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — Russian troops began leaving the Chernobyl nuclear plant after soldiers got “significant doses" of radiation from digging trenches at the highly contaminated site, Ukraine’s state power company said Thursday as heavy fighting raged on the outskirts of Kyiv and other fronts.
Russian forces leaving Chernobyl after radiation exposure
https://www.wdrb.com/news/national/russian-forces-leaving-chernobyl-after-radiation-exposure/article_fb53b7ef-a0e7-5d7e-a5c2-fd02b92f39a3.html
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: cordex on March 31, 2022, 02:03:09 PM
What if Putin didn't miscalculate?

This article makes some interesting points: https://dnyuz.com/2022/03/29/what-if-putin-didnt-miscalculate/
That article is silly.  It offers the binary choice that either Putin wanted to conquer the whole of Ukraine, or that the most important parts of Ukraine to him were the ones containing massive petro deposits.

On one hand I agree with a lot of that article's interpretation of Putin's goals and win conditions, but on the other that article makes it out as though Putin wanted his invasion to stall and suffer losses for some incomprehensible reason.  That doesn't make sense at all.  The better and faster the invasion goes, the stronger his negotiating position.  The weaker Russia looks, the less likely he is going to get the concessions he wants.

I just don't buy the idea that he had to intentionally let a bunch of his troops get wasted just so he had an excuse to bomb civilians so that Ukraine would then be more eager to give him the territory he wants.

If he had the capacity to launch a successful invasion that rapidly pacified Ukrainian troops and resulted in Russian seizure of Kiev on day three he would have done it.  And he still might well have then gone on to magnanimously release the territory he didn't want.  The fact that he has a fallback bargaining position that allows him to hold what he was most interested in doesn't mean he didn't miscalculate or that making his forces look weak was intentional.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on March 31, 2022, 09:20:56 PM
Mariupol

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1509112776224092163

https://twitter.com/Militarylandnet/status/1509438591952424962
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Lennyjoe on March 31, 2022, 11:20:34 PM
Might as well have carpet bombed it with bombers like they did in WWII
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 01, 2022, 08:53:20 AM
Apparently Russia seems to think they're off limits

Kremlin: Reports of Ukrainian strikes on Russian depot won't help talks
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60949706?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6246d80c5fbc655faa01f9df%26Kremlin%3A%20Reports%20of%20Ukrainian%20strikes%20on%20Russian%20depot%20won%27t%20help%20talks%262022-04-01T10%3A51%3A51.972Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:5d4fc620-6161-4ead-a7d4-024e9597c3af&pinned_post_asset_id=6246d80c5fbc655faa01f9df&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: fifth_column on April 01, 2022, 10:05:04 AM
Germany's Ministry of Interior posts a warning on twitter:

"Russia’s war of aggression against #Ukraine is a criminal offense. Anyone publicly approving the war may be liable to prosecution in Germany. This applies to using the "Z" symbol, too. German security authorities are keeping an eye on the use of the symbol. - Ministry of Interior"
https://twitter.com/GermanyinUSA/status/1508552762296082432?s=20&t=XZ71xUwqlpOwmerCmZCl2g (https://twitter.com/GermanyinUSA/status/1508552762296082432?s=20&t=XZ71xUwqlpOwmerCmZCl2g)


In this case the "Interior" must refer to the way a person thinks and feels . . .

But, Russia is the bad guy (this month) so I guess it's all OK.

Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on April 01, 2022, 10:35:55 AM
Apparently Russia seems to think they're off limits

 >:D
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on April 01, 2022, 10:37:09 AM
Germany's Ministry of Interior posts a warning on twitter:

"Russia’s war of aggression against #Ukraine is a criminal offense. Anyone publicly approving the war may be liable to prosecution in Germany. This applies to using the "Z" symbol, too. German security authorities are keeping an eye on the use of the symbol. - Ministry of Interior"
https://twitter.com/GermanyinUSA/status/1508552762296082432?s=20&t=XZ71xUwqlpOwmerCmZCl2g (https://twitter.com/GermanyinUSA/status/1508552762296082432?s=20&t=XZ71xUwqlpOwmerCmZCl2g)

In this case the "Interior" must refer to the way a person thinks and feels . . .

But, Russia is the bad guy (this month) so I guess it's all OK.


If "Z" is for Zelenskyy, how is that "pro-Russia"? I must be missing a meme or something.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 01, 2022, 10:42:13 AM

If "Z" is for Zelenskyy, how is that "pro-Russia"? I must be missing a meme or something.

You'll often see a Z painted on Russian vehicles in Ukraine

Quote
Prior to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the letter "Z" was seen painted on tanks as well as other military vehicles massing near the border. With both countries using similar tanks and trucks, it was originally thought this was meant to distinguish different units to prevent friendly fire and assist with mobilization.
The letter Z is becoming a symbol of Russia's war in Ukraine. But what does it mean?
https://www.npr.org/2022/03/09/1085471200/the-letter-z-russia-ukraine

It's become to be seen as a sign of support of the invasion. Even seen photos of cars in the US with a big Z painted on them often followed by another photo of the car with the windows smashed out.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 01, 2022, 10:45:00 AM
Quote
The Latin-script letter Z (Russian: зет) is one of several symbols (O, V) painted on military vehicles of the Russian Armed Forces involved in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, speculated to help task forces distinguish themselves from other allied or enemy forces.[1][2]

As a pro-war symbol, the "Z" has been used by the Russian government as a propaganda tool,[9] and by Russian civilians as a sign of support for the invasion. Outside Russia, the symbol has therefore been banned from public display in several states.

Z (military symbol)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_(military_symbol)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Ben on April 01, 2022, 10:45:45 AM
Ah, got it. Thanks.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley on April 01, 2022, 11:08:58 AM
I guess any pro-Putin Germans can just say the Z is zer pronoun.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 01, 2022, 04:23:46 PM
Ukraine has been saying all along it wasn't them that hit the Russian oil depot now speculation it was Russian protestors against the war.
Could be BS

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60949706?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=624758614f71af55b461663e%26Ukraine%20security%20chief%20hints%20Russia%20to%20blame%20for%20oil%20depot%20attack%262022-04-01T20%3A07%3A51.818Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:1448b5e7-fde3-4ea3-9ad5-f48be3500c38&pinned_post_asset_id=624758614f71af55b461663e&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Hawkmoon on April 01, 2022, 07:34:03 PM
It could also have been a false flag operation.

I don't care. I think it's hilarious that Russia would invade a sovereign nation, kill thousands (if not tens or hundreds of thousands) of civilians, essentially level major cities ... and then have the chutzpah to complain about an oil facility being blown up.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 02, 2022, 10:48:05 AM

Chernobyl back in Ukrainian hands

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60949706?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=624845981fea84616a6cd90a%26Ukraine%20flag%20flying%20above%20Chernobyl%20again%262022-04-02T14%3A43%3A26.398Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:92824a46-9ecc-43c4-a052-0e1cd8f3eccb&pinned_post_asset_id=624845981fea84616a6cd90a&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 02, 2022, 01:23:25 PM
Quote
Bodies seen strewn across road in town near Kyiv

Journalists from the AFP news agency with the first Ukrainian troops to enter the town of Bucha after Russian troops retreated have seen at least 20 bodies strewn along a single road.

Bucha, just outside Kyiv, has witnessed some of the heaviest fighting in recent weeks.

In footage posted online, bodies were seen along a road in the town as if they had been dumped from the back of a truck. All appeared to be wearing civilian clothes.

Some have their hands tied, with bullet wounds to the head.

Footage shows residential buildings with gaping holes from shellfire, and crushed cars littering the streets.

Bucha - along with nearby Irpin - has seen weeks of fierce fighting, as the Russians tried to encircle the capital.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60949706
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 02, 2022, 01:32:01 PM
Not pretty
https://twitter.com/j_b_e__zorg/status/1510005388950876168

Bodies lying in the street
https://twitter.com/ViktoriiaUAH/status/1509985789404459011
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 02, 2022, 01:37:05 PM
 Almost 300 People Buried In "Mass Grave" In Bucha Outside Kyiv: Mayor
"In Bucha, we have already buried 280 people in mass graves," mayor Anatoly Fedoruk said.
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-crisis-almost-300-people-buried-in-mass-grave-in-bucha-outside-kyiv-mayor-2859291
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 02, 2022, 01:38:04 PM
After looking through some photos of towns around Kyiv the Russians had pulled out of I need a drink
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: HankB on April 02, 2022, 01:55:00 PM
That's really sick - and I mean that in the traditional sense of the word.  =(
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 02, 2022, 01:58:13 PM
Borodyanka
https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1510300147074404352
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 02, 2022, 02:13:36 PM
Quote
One commander said all men aged between 18 and 60 had been rounded up and executed by Moscow's soldiers
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60949706?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=624889ef4f71af55b4616823%26What%27s%20the%20latest%3F%262022-04-02T18%3A04%3A20.299Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:e3369072-a14b-47f2-81da-7ea72b28a261&pinned_post_asset_id=624889ef4f71af55b4616823&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Nick1911 on April 02, 2022, 03:15:03 PM
Ugh  =(

Do they want foreign intervention?  Seems like going on a genocidal rampage against civilians is a good way to get it.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 02, 2022, 03:25:24 PM
If this is accurate looks like the Russians have pretty much pulled out of the Kyiv area

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/Screenshot_2022-04-02_152157.png)
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 02, 2022, 03:30:44 PM
In pictures: Wrecked remains of the world's largest plane
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60949706?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=624865b94f71af55b4616787%26In%20pictures%3A%20Wrecked%20remains%20of%20the%20world%27s%20largest%20plane%262022-04-02T15%3A46%3A56.662Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:16d1193a-e515-4706-b6ad-d585f9b21f6c&pinned_post_asset_id=624865b94f71af55b4616787&pinned_post_type=share
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 02, 2022, 03:35:59 PM
Flooding in Sviyatohirsk after dam was blown up on Siversky Donets river near Izyum
https://liveuamap.com/en/2022/2-april-flooding-in-sviyatohirsk-after-dam-was-blown-up-on
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Pb on April 02, 2022, 06:27:18 PM
Dear God.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: kgbsquirrel on April 02, 2022, 08:30:15 PM
Chernobyl back in Ukrainian hands

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60949706?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=624845981fea84616a6cd90a%26Ukraine%20flag%20flying%20above%20Chernobyl%20again%262022-04-02T14%3A43%3A26.398Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:92824a46-9ecc-43c4-a052-0e1cd8f3eccb&pinned_post_asset_id=624845981fea84616a6cd90a&pinned_post_type=share

Gonna suck resurveying the exclusion zone to see what was churned up.  Some previously safe areas are decidedly less so now.
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Angel Eyes on April 02, 2022, 08:39:34 PM
UK sending long(er) range artillery and armored vehicles to Ukraine:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/uk-send-long-range-weapons-183235859.html
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: WLJ on April 02, 2022, 09:00:18 PM
Quote
Jim Sciutto
@jimsciutto
Breaking: US is expected to help facilitate transfer of tanks from NATO allies to Ukraine, according to senior US officials. The tanks will be Soviet-era T-72 tanks, which Ukrainian military has experience operating and will be delivered “within days, not weeks,” I’m told.
3:48 PM · Apr 2, 2022·Twitter for iPhone
Title: Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
Post by: Perd Hapley o