Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on January 19, 2022, 10:06:55 AM
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Cool looking rifle, but holy cow! $8000 for the civi version. Uses the .277 SIG Fury. It has been submitted for military NGSW (Next Generation Squad Weapon) evaluation. I didn't see if the military would adopt the .277 cartridge? Apparently the rifle is setup to switch to both 6.5 Creedmoor and 7.62 NATO.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/new-for-2022-sig-sauer-mcx-spear/
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"$8000 for the civi version."
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
[barf]
Absolutely *expletive deleted*ing ludicrous.
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They've clearly read the wisdom of P.T. Barnum who reputedly said "There's a sucker born every minute."
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Holy crap!
I just took a look at the specifics for the cartridge...
80,000 psi using a hybrid steel and brass case.
I can't even imagine how reloading that is going to go...
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Holy crap!
I just took a look at the specifics for the cartridge...
80,000 psi using a hybrid steel and brass case.
I can't even imagine how reloading that is going to go...
Does it come with a bunch of ammo?
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"$8000 for the civi version."
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
[barf]
Absolutely *expletive deleted*ing ludicrous.
They out SCARed the SCAR
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Holy crap!
I just took a look at the specifics for the cartridge...
80,000 psi using a hybrid steel and brass case.
I can't even imagine how reloading that is going to go...
Nothing new about that hybrid case - DECADES ago, I remember seeing small ads in the back of guns rags from a company on the left coast (I want to say Huntington Die Specialties, but my memory isn't sharp enough to swear to it) that was selling cases they called something like "Steel Heads" . . . they were designed to be loaded to higher pressures. They never really caught on.
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Nothing new about that hybrid case - DECADES ago, I remember seeing small ads in the back of guns rags from a company on the left coast (I want to say Huntington Die Specialties, but my memory isn't sharp enough to swear to it) that was selling cases they called something like "Steel Heads" . . . they were designed to be loaded to higher pressures. They never really caught on.
No, nothing new about the case. There were versions of cases with a steel head threaded onto a brass body as early as the 1870s. I believe that Ballard Everlasting cartridges were such in one variation.
What IS new, however, is that this is a factory ammo item. And that means that people are going to be interested in reloading it. I can't even imagine the pressure rings that are going to form at the junction between the brass and the steel head after two or three passes through a loading die.
A cartridge like this could demand an entirely new loading method -- neck and shoulder sizing conventionally followed by a roller swaging to bring the body back to proper diameter to eliminate the pressure ring.
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It won the competition.
https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/you-can-buy-the-armys-new-rifle-from-sig-sauer/
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The AK Guy weighs in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7HomeiXESA
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It won the competition.
https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/you-can-buy-the-armys-new-rifle-from-sig-sauer/
https://www.ammoland.com/2022/04/us-armys-new-rifle/#axzz7RI3DEZpt
The new round is basically a .308/7.62 NATO necked down to .277 and - in military trim - loaded to 80,000 PSI with a compound brass/steel case. 140 grain bullet at 2800 according to the article. These pressures are necessary to achieve that velocity with a short suppressor-equipped barrel.
In "civilian" trim ammo pressures will be held to around 50,000 PSI (seems a bit low) for maybe 2400 fps.
I'll go out on a limb here and predict that when used in varying climate conditions with 80,000 PSI ammo, durability issues with the rifle will surface.
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In "civilian" trim ammo pressures will be held to around 50,000 PSI (seems a bit low) for maybe 2400 fps.
Why 50k when 308/7.62x51 is already ~62k psi (50k CUP)?
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Curious on how this cartridge will relate to body armor. I actually know zero about what body armor any of our potential adversaries use.
Also, right now it appears it will be limited distribution within the Army, but I recently read in military.com I think that the future plan is for wider distribution. I wonder how that will affect the whole "everybody (except for the usual snakeater groups) has compatible ammo" thing, both for us and NATO stuff?
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Britain: Say hello to the 280 British
US: Say hello to our new wonder round the 7.62x51
Britain: Ours is better
US: Use ours or else You too NATO get in line!
Britain: Sigh, okay if you insist
US: Say hello to our new wonder round the 5.56
Britain: But it's really just 280 light and didn't you just force us to go to 7.62?
US: USE IT! You too NATO!
Britain: Sigh
US: Say hello to our new wonder round the 6.8x51
Britain: 280 is that you?
US: Shut up!
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https://www.ammoland.com/2022/04/us-armys-new-rifle/#axzz7RI3DEZpt
The new round is basically a .308/7.62 NATO necked down to .277 and - in military trim - loaded to 80,000 PSI with a compound brass/steel case. 140 grain bullet at 2800 according to the article. These pressures are necessary to achieve that velocity with a short suppressor-equipped barrel.
In "civilian" trim ammo pressures will be held to around 50,000 PSI (seems a bit low) for maybe 2400 fps.
I'll go out on a limb here and predict that when used in varying climate conditions with 80,000 PSI ammo, durability issues with the rifle will surface.
I was going to make a comment about WLJ's post, but the civilian trim might as well be 280 British if it is under powered to that degree. The high velocity is the reason to use it. Is there some sort of safety issue with using the higher pressure?
I thought I heard the competitors (or one of them) achieved the velocity without super high pressures.
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Not sure how much of what's been released to the public domain so far will be proven accurate. When the 5.56 was first adapted and issued, there were all kinds of problems in the field, many related to the type of powder used to achieve the required velocity - it didn't work so well in a hot, humid climate. It took a long time to work things out, and even now there are differing reports from the field about lethality, penetration, accuracy, etc. Make one tweak (e.g., shorter barrel for convenience) and something else changes (reduced velocity) in the wrong direction.
Hopefully there's enough institutional memory in the military to avoid repeating the early mistakes made with the 5.56, but even with the newer "temperature stable" powders now on the market, I wonder how a compound case loaded to 80,000 psi will perform under varying conditions, especially as round count goes up . . . and up . . . and up.
And . . . I can't help but wonder if "green" mandates or even DEI considerations are playing some sort of a behind the scenes role in the round's development.
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In theory, Sig and Big Army have done all of that research and testing on the powder and pressure.
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So the plan is to have combat and support units use different cartridges? That sounds like a terrible idea.
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Meanwhile someone at Sig HQ is looking at a painting and asking "Was he was drugs when he did this?"
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In theory, Sig and Big Army have done all of that research and testing on the powder and pressure.
I have the utmost confidence in SIG's developmental testing - they're sure to catch problems before the new rifle and its ammo are deployed.
https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/safety-recall-notice-sig-sauer-cross-bolt-action-rifle
https://www.sigsauer.com/rifle-safety-warning
https://www.sigsauer.com/p320-voluntary-upgrade-program
And of course the U.S. Army's sterling work with things like the advanced heat treating of early Springfield bolt action rifles, the first M16s deployed to Vietnam, and (getting bigger now) the incredible DIVAD system is the stuff of legends.
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In theory, Sig and Big Army have done all of that research and testing on the powder and pressure.
In theory big army did all of the powder research for the 5.56, too.
Then at the last minute they called an audible, switched powders to ones that had NOT been thoroughly vetted, and the rest, as they say, is histrionics...
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Sorry to sound like a mod but how about we move this to the thread that was started on this very subject
https://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=65978.msg1338198#msg1338198
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In theory big army did all of the powder research for the 5.56, too.
Then at the last minute they called an audible, switched powders to ones that had NOT been thoroughly vetted, and the rest, as they say, is histrionics...
And the AR-15/M16 has never lived it down with some.
I think it was Winchester that did that and after watching a few Forgotten Weapons videos it wasn't the first time either. IIRC they changed the load in the middle of the 30 Carbine trials which causes more than one of the submitted guns in the trials to choke. Funny how afterwards the winning gun was a Winchester product [tinfoil]. Remember some pistol trials where they did the same.
And just remembered. Wasn't it also Winchester that overloaded their 9mm NATO loads and that was largely responsible for a few of the first M9s in service to fail? The M9/92 has never lived that one down in the minds of many as well.
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As I understand it the approval to switch the 5.56 round from Du Pont IMR powder to Winchester ball powder, in an effort to gain additional velocity without a big jump in chamber pressure, was authorized by the Army's rifle trial acceptance board. It was not, nor could it have been, a unilateral decision.
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Here's a dumb question: Will there be the same potential rifle/cartridge compatibility issues between the .277 and 6.8x51 as there are between the .223 and 5.56?
I'm not even clear on if the 6.8 will be available in the civilian world, or only the .277.
Additionally, I see that Sig is putting out a civilian special edition with a 13 inch barrel and a factory can. Doesn't that mean two tax stamps? I can't see this rifle as an AR pistol.
https://martinezgunshop.com/product/mcx-spear/
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I am getting a bit suspicious about Sig suddenly winning all these contracts [tinfoil]
SIG Sauer Rattler Wins US SOCOM Personal Defense Weapon Contract
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/05/23/sig-sauer-rattler-wins-us-socom-personal-defense-weapon-contract/
Oh and they're in 5.56 and 300BO
Good combo for ammo mixups :O
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Sorry to sound like a mod but how about we move this to the thread that was started on this very subject
https://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=65978.msg1338198#msg1338198
Your wish is my command. I have moved this post into the correct thread.
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Here's a dumb question: Will there be the same potential rifle/cartridge compatibility issues between the .277 and 6.8x51 as there are between the .223 and 5.56?
I'm not even clear on if the 6.8 will be available in the civilian world, or only the .277.
Additionally, I see that Sig is putting out a civilian special edition with a 13 inch barrel and a factory can. Doesn't that mean two tax stamps? I can't see this rifle as an AR pistol.
https://martinezgunshop.com/product/mcx-spear/
On the first, if they are talking about a lower pressure civilian loads for the .277, then YES, we will have issues with differences between military loads and civilian loadings. However, they may not be dimensional differences. If the civilian loadings are lower pressure, I would be suspicious that they or others might make barrels for the civilian loads that can't handle full power military loads.
On the last, I assume it would be two stamps. I think the only way to make it a single stamp is to permanently attached the suppressor (I am not an expert on this). I wouldn't want to do that myself even if I never intended to shoot unsuppressed. That said, it seems to me you need the barrel length to get the velocity out of this cartridge to make it worth having.
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Your wish is my command. I have moved this post into the correct thread.
Now cluck like a chicken :P
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Now cluck like a chicken :P
Wrong thread.
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"Here's a dumb question: Will there be the same potential rifle/cartridge compatibility issues between the .277 and 6.8x51 as there are between the .223 and 5.56?"
The cartridge specifications are identical. The rub comes in the chamber specifications between arsenal and civilian.
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Anyone seen any estimates of cost per round?
I can it being quite high since it uses a 3 piece case.
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Anyone seen any estimates of cost per round?
I can it being quite high since it uses a 3 piece case.
I would assume the cost would go down once it got to full production, but at this point I don't know if that is guaranteed.
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I haven't seen the full chooch hybrid cases for sale yet. Downloaded brass cased .277 is $34 a box.
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Additionally, I see that Sig is putting out a civilian special edition with a 13 inch barrel and a factory can. Doesn't that mean two tax stamps? I can't see this rifle as an AR pistol.
https://martinezgunshop.com/product/mcx-spear/
That is a special edition; an exact copy of the rifle being bought by the Army. Be the first kid on your block to get one.
Or...
Get one of these other MCX rifle/pistol configurations for a much lower price. https://www.sigsauer.com/firearms/rifles-pistols/sig-mcx.html
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There was a time in my life that I'd probably have really coveted one of those.
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That is a special edition; an exact copy of the rifle being bought by the Army. Be the first kid on your block to get one.
Or...
Get one of these other MCX rifle/pistol configurations for a much lower price. https://www.sigsauer.com/firearms/rifles-pistols/sig-mcx.html
It's weird, because I don't think that's even an exact copy of the XM-5. The one I saw had a longer barrel than that.
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It's weird, because I don't think that's even an exact copy of the XM-5. The one I saw had a longer barrel than that.
This article says 13 inch barrel is standard. https://www.tierthreetactical.com/master-review-sig-sauer-next-generation-squad-weapon-mcx-spear/
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That is a special edition; an exact copy of the rifle being bought by the Army. Be the first kid on your block to get one.
Or...
Get one of these other MCX rifle/pistol configurations for a much lower price. https://www.sigsauer.com/firearms/rifles-pistols/sig-mcx.html
"Much lower price" is all relative with Sig. :laugh:
I have the MCX Canebrake with the Titanium 762 suppressor and it is by far the most expensive gun setup I own.
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Sig's business model.
Monday -- Quietly quit carrying parts, magazines, and accessories for Model XXX1
Tuesday -- Announce that Model XXX1 has been discontinued
Wednesday -- Watch the world *expletive deleted*ing burn for Sig owners as they now pay 5 times the already extravagant MSRP for a magazine for the Model XXX1
Thursday -- Announce the Model XXX2, which is similar, but just different enough that it has no parts or magazine commonality with the XXX1.
Friday -- Go to Oktoberfest and slam sausages, beer, and Brunhilda.
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Friday -- Go to Oktoberfest and slam sausages, beer, and Brunhilda.
That has me forgiving them for MON-THU. =D
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I would assume the cost would go down once it got to full production, but at this point I don't know if that is guaranteed.
Don't forget to factor in 10% for The Big Guy. ;)
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Sig MCX Spear - US Army NGSW - Disassembly, Live Fire & Discussion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO4IKxECNzI
Product Spotlight: SIG MCX Spear Next-Generation Battle Rifle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAAhIB-Ut7k
The US Army’s new Service Rifle - The SIG SPEAR / NGSW XM5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEf3ZlUkOCg
Mud Test: Sig MCX Spear - US Army NGSW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhFjUliSvVc
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You guys are hilarious. Muzzle velocity. Wear and tear on weapons. Terminal ballistics.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
MONEY
Clear now?
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The MSM can't believe Sig is selling the Death Star rifle to civilians
Media freaking over Sig's civilian version of military rifle
https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2022/07/28/sigs-civilian-rifle-n60878
He added that the gun is chambered in 277 SIG Fury, the commercial variant of the 6.8 x 51 hybrid military round available in the company’s hybrid case technology submitted to the US Army NGSW program, per the company website.
“The revolutionary SIG FURY ammunition is the most technically advanced leap in smalls arms ammunition in over 150 years, this turns your intermediate rifle platform into magnum performance without the added weight or length while still using 20-round magazines,” Cohen said.
The gun can tear through body armor at extended ranges, according to The Daily Beas
:facepalm:
A powerful rifle derived from US Army weaponry is going on sale to civilians amid ongoing gun control debates, report says
https://www.businessinsider.com/gun-sold-to-civilians-sig-sauer-mcx-spear-2022-7
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Sig’s new rifle is more powerful, sure, but at around $4,500, you’re not likely to see a bunch in criminals’ hands anytime soon.
Did the price come down to $4500? I thought it was $8000.
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5.56 "version"
New SIG MCX SPEAR LT rifle in 5.56 for civilian market! The little brother to the Sig M5.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUeJUU0bRFs
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Garand Thumb released a video on the Spear LT, and was really taken with it. The 11.5 SBR he was playing with looked like a really nice gun.
I guess Sig is hoping to arm the units that don't get the M5 with this little carbine.
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I like the idea of the 7.62x39 version. $2500 is a lot of money. If that street price came in lower, I can almost see trying to get one. If the prices end up being a premium over that like the Virtus, then no.
Alternatives like the Krebs Custom CORE rifle are lightweight and handy guns and still under $2000. Garand Thumb talked about 5.56 alternatives. A BCM lightweight rifle is right at $1500 or so. I think I would have to shoot a lot more than I do to need that extra capability.
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Garand Thumb released a video on the Spear LT, and was really taken with it. The 11.5 SBR he was playing with looked like a really nice gun.
I guess Sig is hoping to arm the units that don't get the M5 with this little carbine.
IMO, there is no guarantee the Army will go through with arming all troops with the new rifle. Plus, there are plenty of other military supply contracts around.
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IMO, there is no guarantee the Army will go through with arming all troops with the new rifle. Plus, there are plenty of other military supply contracts around.
There is pretty much a guarantee that the army will NOT arm all the troops with the M5, since they said they weren't going to, and didn't buy enough to do it. The M5 is only for the "Close Combat Force". (Very roughly, the Close Combat Force are those troops we expect to be within 600M of the enemy as part of their mission)
The current plan, as I understand it, is to keep the M4 for the rest of us, and finally phase out the remaining M16's that are still floating around being used. My unit just got brand spanking factory new M4s as part of this whole weapons upgrade shenanigans. There's no arguing the fact that the M4 is a little long in the tooth however, and lacks some features the Army really wants. (Ambi controls and a folding stock are the big ones there) I'm pretty sure that Sig is marketing this as a replacement for M4's that wear out for the troops in the rear to modernize those guns as well as to make it easier to suppress. The Army is pretty interested in suppressing everyone's weapon.
Failing that Sig will just sell a bunch of them to civilians and police departments
I like the idea of the 7.62x39 version. $2500 is a lot of money. If that street price came in lower, I can almost see trying to get one. If the prices end up being a premium over that like the Virtus, then no.
This is a generational upgrade from the Vertus, and it's Sig, so I'd expect there not to be a price premium, but rather the Vertus will be discontinued soon.
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(https://i.imgur.com/JTYw9N9.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/2BBI11O.png)
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The M5 is now the M7
"The Army originally chose the designation XM5 as the name of the new rifle in March," a service spokesperson said in a statement. "Since then, the service learned that the M5 name is used by Colt Industries for one of its 5.56mm carbines."
How could they have not known this?
The Army Forced to Change the Name of Its New Rifle
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2023/01/19/army-forced-change-name-of-its-new-rifle.html
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As I understand it the approval to switch the 5.56 round from Du Pont IMR powder to Winchester ball powder, in an effort to gain additional velocity without a big jump in chamber pressure, was authorized by the Army's rifle trial acceptance board. It was not, nor could it have been, a unilateral decision.
So Winchester padded several pockets then?
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So Winchester padded several pockets then?
I'm not sure that they would have needed to. Ball powder showed a variety of benefits over IMR.
They just didn't know about the big drawbacks at the time.