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Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: grampster on June 15, 2022, 09:36:41 AM

Title: Curious about flu shots
Post by: grampster on June 15, 2022, 09:36:41 AM
I'm pretty sure a fair amount of our membership here at APS contacted Covid.  I also would suppose a fair amount of us also get the yearly fall flu shot.

I wonder how many who did contact Covid, had the Flu shot that most folks take advantage of each fall.

Inquiring minds would like to know.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: HankB on June 15, 2022, 09:48:37 AM
I got the Covid vaccine in May '21, seasonal flu shot in September '21.

Got confirmed Covid in Jan '22 - it felt like the mildest case of flu I've ever had.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: dogmush on June 15, 2022, 09:49:36 AM
I did not get COVID, but I did get the flu shot.  Of the 7 people at my work that got COVID, all have had the flu shot.

I am curious what hypothesis you are investigating here.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: K Frame on June 15, 2022, 10:20:01 AM
I've always gotten the flu shot.

I also got the Covid vac, but not the booster.

As far as I know, I have not had the Kung Flu.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: grampster on June 15, 2022, 10:20:15 AM
"I am curious what hypothesis you are investigating here."

I'm just wondering if the Flu Shot might just have a benefit towards warding off Covid or at least helping to cause it to be milder if one did contact Covid.  Just a stray thought this AM, so I created a thread.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: K Frame on June 15, 2022, 10:23:04 AM
I've always gotten the flu shot.

I also got the Covid vac, but not the booster.

As far as I know, I have not had the Kung Flu.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: dogmush on June 15, 2022, 10:25:21 AM
Is Influenza related in any way to the Coronavirus family?  You wouldn't think antibodies would cross over.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: 230RN on June 15, 2022, 10:26:34 AM
Had complete Covid series, superdupercallifragilistic geriatric flu shot, did not get anything beyond the usual winter sniffles here and there, probably just allergies from the pine trees out back.

Careful about masking, hand washing, distancing, etc. according to my freedom of choice viewpoint, until about a week ago.

Don't know if this is a data point for you or not.

Terry, 230RN
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: MillCreek on June 15, 2022, 10:42:38 AM
You may be able to do one stop shopping soon: https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/analysis/covid-19-influenza-combo-vaccines/
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: zahc on June 15, 2022, 11:01:29 AM
I got the latest flu shot, but I read that the efficacy of the flu shot was like a record low, basically even more like water than usual. Plus the flu season was really mild or non-existent on top of that. So, I concluded it was even more of a waste of time than the flu shot is already even at the best of times. But I did my part to keep the profits rolling for the med-industrial complex.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: BobR on June 15, 2022, 11:35:13 AM
I have had the flu shot. Two doses of Covid. Just got  over the Covid. It was pretty mild except for the persistent metallic taste in my mouth. My wife slept for about 2 weeks.

I am more concerned with the two outbreaks of shingles I have had after receiving the Covid vaccine after never having them in the past. More studies needed.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34719084/

bob
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: Fly320s on June 15, 2022, 02:46:56 PM
Unofficially, I've had covid.  I never bothered to get tested, though.

Officially, I did not get a flu shot the last few years.  I rarely get a flu shot.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: cordex on June 15, 2022, 02:50:02 PM
I am more concerned with the two outbreaks of shingles I have had after receiving the Covid vaccine after never having them in the past. More studies needed.
I'm 39 and I had a relatively minor shingles outbreak about a month ago.  No COVID vaccine, but I did get COVID in the fall of 2020.  I've heard that both COVID and the vaccine have been linked to the reactivation of varicella.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: Ben on June 15, 2022, 02:52:42 PM
I'm 39 and I had a relatively minor shingles outbreak about a month ago.  No COVID vaccine, but I did get COVID in the fall of 2020.  I've heard that both COVID and the vaccine have been linked to the reactivation of varicella.

This is news to me. Dang. I had eye shingles I guess 8 or so years ago. I don't want that again. I just had the covids, no vaccine.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: Grandpa Shooter on June 15, 2022, 09:30:18 PM
Curiosity question?  Unless a person rushes out to get a real test, not the q-tip up the nose, how would they actually know they had Covid?  I have heard multiple folks claim to have had Covid, just like they claim to have had the flu, but when questioned they admit never having been tested.  Symptomology is not conclusive.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: HeroHog on June 15, 2022, 10:31:11 PM
No Covid, Shot 1 & 2 of the J&J juice, get flu shots every time one comes out.
No colds, no flu, no Covid.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: Andiron on June 15, 2022, 11:15:48 PM
Had Covid.

Have not (and won't) get The Jab.

Always get a flu shot.  Mostly out of long habit from the .mil

Oddly,  haven't had even the common cold since having covid in Dec 2020.  Lucky coincidence?  No idea but I'll take it.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: sumpnz on June 16, 2022, 12:05:05 AM
Turning 45 end of next week. 

Got the coof back in January.  Got the J&J shot a year ago, no boosters.  Didnít want it in the first place but wanted the kids to have a relationship with my parents.

Havenít had any flu shots for 9 years.  Only got that because swmbo insisted given we had an infant.  Before that, maybe got 2 flu shots in the prior 10 years.  Been sick a LOT less than my wife, who gets the flu shot more years than not.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: Ben on June 16, 2022, 08:06:07 AM
Oddly,  haven't had even the common cold since having covid in Dec 2020.  Lucky coincidence?  No idea but I'll take it.

That just set a lightbulb off. I don't get sick a lot, but for as long as I can remember, I always get a bad cold or something that knocks me out for a week once or twice a year. I just realized from your post that this has not happened to me since I got covid. Huh. Maybe that's a pro that cancels out the screwed up olfactory con.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: lee n. field on June 16, 2022, 08:33:20 AM
I'm pretty sure a fair amount of our membership here at APS contacted Covid.  I also would suppose a fair amount of us also get the yearly fall flu shot.

I wonder how many who did contact Covid, had the Flu shot that most folks take advantage of each fall.

Inquiring minds would like to know.

Got the 'Rona.  Didn't get the jab.

Always decline to get the flu vaccine.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: grampster on June 16, 2022, 01:52:45 PM
Hmmmm.  Not a whole lot of tie together for much of anything other than no colds after covid. 

We were both sick with pretty hard respiratory issues from mid October 2019 to Mid January 2020.  No tests for anything then and local doctors would not allow tests for the covid antibodies even in mid to late 2020.  So no way to say whether we had covid or severe bronchitis attacks that lingered and went up and down for 3 months.  We have had flu shots every fall since 1968...no flu ever again since.  We had Pfizer 2 shots spring of '21.  I experienced a "bronchitis?" attack in mid February in Ft Myers Fl, but didn't get tested as I didn't want to get anyplace near a hospital and I had no loss of taste or smell....so we came home to Michigan the 1st of March. Got a new Flovent HFA inhaler when we got home and problem cleared up in a week.  Neither of us has had a cold that we can recall since January of 2020, other than my bronchitis thing past February.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: RoadKingLarry on June 16, 2022, 03:04:27 PM
After I got out of the Navy in '92 I declined to get the flu shot till '17 when I was scheduled for my hip replacement.  I didn't want to risk getting sick and having to reschedule at the last minute.
Didn't get the 'rona jab(s). I suspect I had it in August of '21. Symptoms were there, and I was in close contact with someone that tested positive 2 days later, and my daughter and her family got sick after visiting us the day before we developed full blown symptoms and they all tested positive. Not a definitive diagnosis but the clues add up.

Again while anecdotal,  this passed spring wife and I both got sick with flu like symptoms after being visited by our disease ridden vermin grandchildren. Daughter and family were all properly diagnosed with the flu the day after their visit with us.
If it walks like a duck...

Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: grampster on June 16, 2022, 04:26:06 PM
 "...after being visited by our disease ridden vermin grandchildren.".....

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....True dat.  Our two great grands both spend time in elementary school and day care and they are trolls who live with us.   We've been lucky or maybe we are benefitting from the seemingly/maybe a bit of immunity noted in some above posts because we had the suspected Wuhan in Oct '19-Jan '20.  Probably never know.

I have read various accounts that virii as they evolve tend to be more communicable, but also less dangerous.  The accounts talk about how virii adapt to allow them to continue, because they "learn" to not kill their hosts or they won't be able to continue "living" on.  One wonders if it's not the jabs that reduce the severity of Wuhan, but the natural adaptation/evolution of them.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: zxcvbob on June 16, 2022, 10:19:45 PM
I get the flu shot every year, although it's not a really high priority so maybe I've missed one here or there. I know I've gotten them for the past 3 or 4 years.

I took the 2-shot Covid vaccine in March of 2021 (or was it 2020?)  and I have not gotten a booster shot and don't intend to.

I have not contracted Covid, nor have I had the flu in many years.  I do get colds from time to time and they kick my ass; they trigger a type of asthma, then I cough for a few months and sometimes get bronchitis or pneumonia.  That asthma thing started when I turned 40.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: JTHunter on June 17, 2022, 12:32:10 AM
I'm pretty sure a fair amount of our membership here at APS contacted Covid.  I also would suppose a fair amount of us also get the yearly fall flu shot.

I wonder how many who did contact Covid, had the Flu shot that most folks take advantage of each fall.

Inquiring minds would like to know.

Nope.  Never had a flu shot, never had the flu, not 'rona vaxxed (and no plans to), haven't even had a winter-time cold the last 6 years.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: JTHunter on June 17, 2022, 12:34:24 AM
I've always gotten the flu shot.

I also got the Covid vac, but not the booster.

As far as I know, I have not had the Kung Flu.

"Freaky" Fauci has been vaxxed AND 2 boosters and he STILL has come down with covid.  Tells you how good those shots are, doesn't it?  [barf]
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: K Frame on June 20, 2022, 07:25:04 AM
"Freaky" Fauci has been vaxxed AND 2 boosters and he STILL has come down with covid.  Tells you how good those shots are, doesn't it?  [barf]

No one has EVER said that the shots offer 100% immunity. Flu shots don't offer 100% immunity for *expletive deleted*ck's sake.

What IS true, however, is that in virtually every case of a vaccinated individual contracting the illness is that it is significantly less severe than it would have been had the individual not been vaccinated.

I have NO clue why people started to believe that "well, they said 1 jab and I'd be immune for life, but I got a mild case of the disease, and you know what that means? IT MEANS THAT VACCINATIONS ARE GOVERNMENT MIND CONTROL BULLSHIT! IT'S ALL A PLOT/SCAM!"

Jesus wept.

Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: cordex on June 20, 2022, 08:40:12 AM
No one has EVER said that the shots offer 100% immunity. Flu shots don't offer 100% immunity for *expletive deleted*ck's sake.
The universal public health messaging surrounding the COVID 19 inoculations for a significant time after they were launched was that they were ~95% effective at preventing either the infection or retransmission of the virus. The line about "and if you do get it, it'll be more mild" was a mere afterthought.  That was why many people got it - to protect others, and to prevent initial infection.

People largely believed what they were told by the medical authorities, and when it turned out that that the inoculation actually isn't anywhere near that effective at preventing either infection or retransmission, the authorities had to abandon the Bailey of near-perfect protection against infection and retreated to defending the Motte of a reduction in the chance of serious negative outcome and dismissing breakthrough infections/transmission as unimportant.

In short, the expectation that the COVID inoculations would be like just about every vaccine people in the US are familiar with and largely prevent infection was entirely the fault of the same Sciency people who now claim that no one really expected them to prevent infection and you are stupid if you ever believed that.  Maybe this time they're finally telling the truth.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: Ben on June 20, 2022, 08:53:49 AM
Yeah, as I recall, for about the first six months, all you heard from the administrations, and then after Biden was elected, the MSM and many, many "medical professionals", was that the vaccine was a miracle that would prevent covid, full stop. Anyone who questioned that, rightly making comparisons to the flu vaccine, was labeled a denier, moron, and right wing nut job.

It wasn't until many of those same people started getting covid after vaccination that the message was changed to emulate what is said about the flu vaccine, and "nobody [cough] Rachel Maddow[/cough] ever said covid vaccines would prevent covid."
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: K Frame on June 20, 2022, 08:55:15 AM
As I said, no one (or at least no competent medical professional) ever said that the vaccinations would be 100% effective.

Those same people also were quite clear in saying that there was absolutely NO guarantee of what would happen to the vaccine's effectiveness once the virus began to mutate, AND they were quite clear in warning that the virus WOULD mutate and would very likely mutate rather quickly (which it did) because that is what viri do.

The only people I saw claiming that the shots would be 100% effective were idiots in the media who were hyping the "gotta do it to protect everyone and stop the virus in its tracks" line of though (which did come from health professionals and the government) and anti-vaxxers who used the 100% claim as a point of failure to weaponize their anti-vax status.

The amount of hyperbole from proponents of both sides had the very serious, and very negative, effect of drowning out the actual truth as it was stated BY the sciency people in the first place.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: K Frame on June 20, 2022, 09:01:28 AM
"Yeah, as I recall, for about the first six months, all you heard from the administrations, and then after Biden was elected, the MSM and many, many "medical professionals", was that the vaccine was a miracle that would prevent covid, full stop."


I'd really like you, or anyone else, to provide an authenticated statement to that fact as it came from ANY medical professional who was either involved in the development of the vaccines or in their administration that that would happen.

The amount of both inadvertent and flat out fraudulent representation of the facts about the vaccines and what people like Fauchi had to say was absolutely rampant on both sides of the issue.


This is a pretty good example of the kind of misinformation that was being slung around to support varying positions on the subject: https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-fauci-vaccineeffectiveness-idUSL1N2L82Q4
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: Ben on June 20, 2022, 09:12:24 AM
I'd really like you, or anyone else, to provide an authenticated statement to that fact as it came from ANY medical professional who was either involved in the development of the vaccines or in their administration that that would happen.

You'll note I put "medical professional" in quotes. For examples, just google interviews from the first half of 2021 with any of the "medical professionals" used by MSM news outlets. You'll find tons of video showing the CNN. MSNBC, etc "medical professionals" stating that the vaccine stops covid, and "medical professionals" from Fox News, etc. saying that the vaccine doesn't stop covid and also has dangerous side effects.

I recall seeing very few interviews with actual virologists and microbiologists. Most interviews were with general practioner doctors, nurses, etc. And when people like Robert Malone went against the MSM message, they were called nutjobs.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: K Frame on June 20, 2022, 09:17:23 AM
There you go... now you're beginning to grasp what I'm actually saying.

The amount of misinformation and misdirection that was spread by BOTH sides was almost criminal in nature.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: cordex on June 20, 2022, 09:20:55 AM
As I said, no one (or at least no competent medical professional) ever said that the vaccinations would be 100% effective.
Dude, you're the one bringing 100% into the discussion.  The original claim from both Pfizer and Moderna (and backed by public health authorities as well as enforced by social media) was ~95% effective.  If they had been 95% effective at preventing infection and retransmission and also provided good protection for the remaining 5% of breakthrough cases then I'd say the critics of the inoculation would have less to complain about.

Those same people also were quite clear in saying that there was absolutely NO guarantee of what would happen to the vaccine's effectiveness once the virus began to mutate, AND they were quite clear in warning that the virus WOULD mutate and would very likely mutate rather quickly (which it did) because that is what viri do.
No, that was not a clear line of messaging in the early periods.  In fact, I don't remember any significant messaging about that until well after variants starting popping up.  I'd note that if you know your inoculation does not provide near sterilizing immunity then it is going to produce selection pressure in favor of inoculation-resistant strains.

So if, as you claim, there was a general understanding from the public health community that the virus was likely to mutate quickly, and that the inoculation is not going to provide sufficient immunity to wipe out the virus, then the mass-inoculation effort must have been engineered to fail.  Under those conditions, and knowing as we did that the disease disproportionately impacts people based on weight, age, and general health, the correct action would have been to deny vaccination to young and healthy and to provide it exclusively to the elderly, the obese, and the immunocompromised.  Injecting young and healthy people - who are unlikely to have a serious expression of the disease anyway - is simply going to speed run the virus' development of inoculation resistance.
The only people I saw claiming that the shots would be 100% effective were idiots in the media who were hyping the "gotta do it to protect everyone and stop the virus in its tracks" line of though (which did come from health professionals and the government) and anti-vaxxers who used the 100% claim as a point of failure to weaponize their anti-vax status.
Again, the claim was 95%.  Made by media, government, doctors, researchers, pharmaceutical manufacturers, and really the only line that could be spoken in polite company.  Claims against the 95% effectiveness were considered "vaccine disinformation".  "Breakthrough cases" were supposed to be rare.

We were sold the line that if only enough people got the inoculation the virus could be eliminated entirely.  That is only possible if it provides significant protection against both infection and retransmission - not just protection against the worst of the consequences when you inevitably do get infected.

For some reason I thought were old enough to remember this...
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: dogmush on June 20, 2022, 02:18:16 PM

I'd really like you, or anyone else, to provide an authenticated statement to that fact as it came from ANY medical professional who was either involved in the development of the vaccines or in their administration that that would happen.


I think that no one figured it would be a "stop COVID in it's tracks" thing, but people are remembering things like this:

In a March 9, 2021 CDC webinar titled "What Every Clinician Should Know about COVID-19 Vaccine Safety and Effectiveness and How to Address Patient Questions and Concerns (https://emergency.cdc.gov/coca/calls/2021/callinfo_030921.asp)" the CDC presenters included the following about Vaccine efficacy:
Quote
This [the Pfizer] vaccine was studied in persons 16 and older, and the trials were conducted in United States, Brazil, Argentina, South Africa, Turkey, and Germany. The primary outcome of symptomatic lab confirmed-COVID was observed in eight people in the vaccinated arm, 162 persons in the placebo arm, giving a vaccine efficacy of about 95%. Hospitalization was much more rare. There were no hospitalized cases in the vaccinated group.

....

For the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine phase three trials, the interim results came from a similar time period as to Pfizer -- September to November of 2020. This trial was conducted in persons 18 years of age and older and only in the United States. For the primary outcome of symptomatic confirmed, lab-confirmed COVID, there were only 11 cases in the vaccinated group versus 185 cases in the placebo group, yielding a vaccine efficacy of 94%. 

Bolding mine.

It is a reasonable inference to say that if you don't have symptoms, and don't have a confirmed lab test, you probably don't have COVID.  That is what people were expecting at the begining, that you had a mid 90% chance of not getting COVID bad enough that you got symptoms or needed to take a test.  That is not what the vaccines ended up delivering, and the messaging shift to "protects against severe COVID, that's what's important" was pretty abrupt in the summer of 21.  I still think that for the vast majority of people, the vaccine was and continues to be a good idea, but it's untrue to pretend the US public health apparatus didn't move the goalposts when they saw the vaccines falling short of intial estimates.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: zahc on June 20, 2022, 02:59:02 PM
Quote
What IS true, however, is that in virtually every case of a vaccinated individual contracting the illness is that it is significantly less severe than it would have been had the individual not been vaccinated

Is there any real proof of this? It seems to be something repeated frequently, and I've never seen a shred of actual evidence.
Title: Re: Curious about flu shots
Post by: dogmush on June 20, 2022, 03:19:56 PM
Is there any real proof of this? It seems to be something repeated frequently, and I've never seen a shred of actual evidence.

evidence that any particular individual got a less severe case than they would have?  No, how would there be?  Evidence that the incidence of severe illness, hospitalization, and death from (not with) COVID is substantially lower in vaccinated populations?  Sure there are a ton of studies and data showing that.

Here's one (https://www.news-medical.net/news/20220110/A-study-on-COVID-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-that-required-hospitalization.aspx), but there are probably hundreds out there.  You can also check out the pretty charts on CDC's data tracker: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status note that if you click the radio button to cases, vaxxed and unvaxxed follow very similar spikes, just vaxxed is lower.  But if you click it over to deaths, the vaxxed line suddenly loses the spikes of the unvaxed deaths and both case lines.