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Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: gunsmith on November 20, 2022, 05:36:11 PM

Title: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: gunsmith on November 20, 2022, 05:36:11 PM
  here is a fox news story about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L70ZWt7HY_M

 there are tons of speculation on youtubes "true crime" channels ...
 the cops/media have said both "KABAR"  and "Rambo knife" 
 
 I personally think its someone the boyfriend knew, he was a sports guy and whoever stabbed multiple people has got to be physically fit .

 the basic facts are, 2 girls were out partying on a sat night and their other friends  a girl and boyfriend were at a party - got home at 0230 and were killed between 0300 and 0400 .

 
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: 230RN on November 21, 2022, 03:08:03 PM
All four of them in a bed?  Then the reporter said something illegible (to me) and that the authorities thought a  Rambo style knife was involved.  Exact: 0:15 ff in the link above.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: HankB on November 21, 2022, 04:33:12 PM
I heard they're trying to find out who bought a Ka-Bar recently . . . probably surprised there isn't knife registration in place.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: WLJ on November 21, 2022, 04:38:32 PM
I heard they're trying to find out who bought a Ka-Bar recently . . . probably surprised there isn't knife registration in place.

So you're saying it was an unregistered Ka-Bar bought though the knife show loophole.

(https://media.tenor.com/ykVAsEud6fwAAAAM/friends-matt-leblanc.gif)
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: griz on November 21, 2022, 08:52:57 PM
One of those deadly Ghost K-bars perhaps?
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Bogie on November 21, 2022, 08:57:45 PM
Have  you seen the Damascus ones that Mad Mike has been flogging?
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 21, 2022, 10:16:40 PM
Majoring on a minor, I know, but do journalists have their own edit of the Rambo films, where he sports a Ka Bar?
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: gunsmith on November 21, 2022, 10:52:02 PM
Some of the things making gunsmith grumpy, 5 folks killed in a gay bar and it's non stop hysteria about anti trans violence and gun violence - 4 students killed by a knife and it gets buried .

 Rambo didn't use a KA-BAR , He used a Randall or a LILE according to the interwebs,  but in the 80's the stores got flooded with cheapo survival knives - probably useless for either fighting or survival , but now all the idiots think they're the same thing and will probably push the price of collectible KA-BAR knives higher - a few months ago they were going for 1 to 3 hundred for a vintage KA-BAR but other than sharpening it and using leather conditioning, I have no idea how to date a vintage KA-BAR ( HOW TO DATE A VINTAGE KABAR, GET IT? , NO FLOWERS JUST SHARPEN IT LOL )
 the end near the hilt has a bit of serration - it looks like a well maintained 70's or eighties - I think eighties due to "rambo" every knife needed serration ...

also, how is it they have no suspects yet? every other doorway has a camera at the sidewalk catching porch pirates!

oooh, Rambo making a knife, not a kabar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iONYYY7lHo4
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: gunsmith on November 21, 2022, 11:09:50 PM
All four of them in a bed?  Then the reporter said something illegible (to me) and that the authorities thought a  Rambo style knife was involved.  Exact: 0:15 ff in the link above.

all four in bed, but no one is saying "all in the same bed" - ( pronoun dujour ) went from room to room - the news caster is sort of difficult to understand - he sort of sounds like an effeminate football player - he said they were in bed and "er um " had defensive wounds
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: WLJ on December 30, 2022, 12:00:48 PM
Update

Suspect in killings of 4 Idaho students arrested in Pennsylvania
https://www.wave3.com/2022/12/30/reports-person-interest-custody-killings-idaho-college-students/

Schiff is probably working on figuring out a connection between him and Trump as we speak.

Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: MechAg94 on December 30, 2022, 12:22:29 PM
I hope they got the right guy. 

I read the comment at the end that many students switched to online classes the remainder of the semester after the murders.  That doesn't make a lot of sense since the murders happened in a home, not on campus. 
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Ben on December 30, 2022, 02:45:29 PM
At the risk of "too soon", it sounds like maybe he was looking for firsthand data for his dissertation.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: gunsmith on December 30, 2022, 08:11:17 PM
 interesting development.
 I sure hope it is the right person, the suspect owned a car matching the description. 
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: BobR on December 30, 2022, 08:35:33 PM
interesting development.
 I sure hope it is the right person, the suspect owned a car matching the description.

Along with 21,999 other people with that make and model of car. They have to have real evidence in order to arrest him because IMO just the vehicle would be tenuous at best. Hopefully it is the right guy.

bob
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: MillCreek on December 30, 2022, 09:07:55 PM
Seattle and national media reporting that DNA was key in identifying the suspect.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: gunsmith on December 30, 2022, 10:13:34 PM
 Registered Libertarian and obsessive compulsive vegan as well as a Criminal Justice major .

So far legacy media has said he was friendly and talkative as well as bugged eyed and a loner who looked like he was on drugs.

 I'm sure they collected DNA and did a genealogical search to narrow down the suspect to this guy .

 I'd wager he's an incel of some kind -  Does Idaho have the death penalty?
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: RoadKingLarry on December 30, 2022, 11:53:40 PM
interesting development.
 I sure hope it is the right person, the suspect owned a car matching the description.

Anytime I see a suspect arrested on a high profile case I can't help but think of Richard Jewel.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 31, 2022, 12:52:27 AM
Meanwhile, in London:

https://hotair.com/headlines/2022/12/30/a-break-in-the-case-of-jack-the-ripper-n520644

Interesting timing
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Ben on December 31, 2022, 07:26:59 AM
Anytime I see a suspect arrested on a high profile case I can't help but think of Richard Jewel.

That is a valid consideration.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: MechAg94 on December 31, 2022, 08:48:00 AM
Along with 21,999 other people with that make and model of car. They have to have real evidence in order to arrest him because IMO just the vehicle would be tenuous at best. Hopefully it is the right guy.

bob
I would assume they narrowed it down by putting him in the area at the time of the murders then searching further for DNA and other evidence.  Hopefully, that is a valid assumption. 
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Hawkmoon on December 31, 2022, 12:15:22 PM
Not necessarily: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwJu-srT6CU

There was a case in Connecticut decades ago that was much like the Richard Jewel case. A young woman was killed in a downtown parking garage. The cops "knew" who did it, and harassed the guy they were certain was the killer for many, many years. Basically ruined his life.

Years later they identified and arrested the real killer.

https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/Top-50-13250472.php

This article was written after the conviction of the killer. It mentions Anthony Golino, but it doesn't even begin to cover the way the cops hounded and harassed him for years because they were so certain that he had to be the perp.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Ben on January 01, 2023, 08:17:19 AM
Yikes. I'm stepping back from, "They got the guy". I saw an interview this morning with a retired FBI agent. She said they identified him not through normal DNA, but through "heritage DNA". In other words, the FBI created a fake account on one of the DNA ancestry sites and submitted a DNA sample*. They then got their hit back that showed all the "DNA relatives" for that DNA sample, and started looking for people related to that DNA group.

That seems really shaky. I did the DNA ancestry thing and first off, they have all kinds of warnings on the kit about keeping your sample pure and fresh (you swab the inside of your cheek and immediately stick the swab in a special container and seal it). They are clear that contamination invalidates results. They're suggesting that the DNA sample came from the body of one of the victims. How did that sample not get dried up and contaminated pretty much right away? I suppose the law enforcement labs are geared to process that, but I question whether the ancestry sites are, especially if the sample is submitted as some John Q Public sample that they assume followed their sampling protocols. 

Then when you get your sample back, your DNA relatives are all over the place, like mostly third and fourth cousins. When you get to that point, there can literally be hundreds of people, and that's just people in the company's database. I can't imagine how many third and fourth cousins we all have all over the world.

I mean, given my old job, fed.gov knows everything about me, which is one reason I didn't get paranoid when I did a test at 23andme. This kind of thing though, makes me think about not using these kinds of sites. Especially with LE doing the "fake account" thing. Besides the legal aspect, this sure seems like sloppy evidence collection.


*This might explain why they took so long to arrest someone. I think it took like 30 days for me to get my results. Which is another reason to question why they did this anonymously, instead of as LE, where they could have had the results in 48 hours. Other than they were skirting the law.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: WLJ on January 01, 2023, 12:25:19 PM
While their method in narrowing down where to look may raise a few eyebrows, and it should, If they have since gotten an exact match from DNA found at the scene to his DNA they probably more than likely have the right man.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: sumpnz on January 01, 2023, 10:28:12 PM
I think I’m going to wait for more info to come out before I join the chorus to hang him.  By most accounts he was a creepy dude.  Might have even been stalking/tracking one of the victims if rumors can be believed.  But what if he was actually innocent of the murders? 

When they take him to trial the evidence will be displayed and if he’s guilty let him hang.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: WLJ on January 04, 2023, 10:57:55 PM
Apparently the FBI was tracking him as he drove across the country and requested Indiana police pull him over.

Quote
A Federal Bureau of Investigation surveillance team tracked Idaho quadruple murder suspect Bryan Kohberger and his father on a cross-country road trip from Washington State to Pennsylvania and asked Indiana police to pull him over, a law enforcement source told Fox News.

The law enforcement source told Fox News that the FBI surveillance team was seeking video images of Kohberger as well as his hands.

Bryan Kohberger and his father were pulled over twice in Indiana on Dec. 15 while making the cross-country trip.

Idaho murders: FBI directed Indiana police to pull over Bryan Kohberger, seeking video images of his hands
https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murders-fbi-directed-indiana-police-pull-over-bryan-kohberger-seeking-video-images-hands
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: MechAg94 on January 05, 2023, 09:22:32 AM
While their method in narrowing down where to look may raise a few eyebrows, and it should, If they have since gotten an exact match from DNA found at the scene to his DNA they probably more than likely have the right man.
IMO, they had better have more evidence than that to point to him.  All that does is connect him to those people (assuming the DNA sample is accurate enough to tag just him).  Just because the DNA was there doesn't mean he did the crime.  I would be curious about the nature of the DNA sample.  Was it a sizeable sample or just a trace? 

There was a case in Oklahoma several years back of a police officer who was convicted of rape.  DNA testing found "samples" of the accusers DNA on his zipper or something like that.  However, it was shown on further study that the DNA "samples" were as small as stray skin cells and there was testimony that could have transferred from something like a handshake followed by a trip to the restroom.  I believe his appeal was denied regardless.  Just something I try to keep in mind. 
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Ben on January 05, 2023, 09:51:25 AM
Very cursory, but more info on using the genealogy sites:

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/idaho-murder-suspect-nabbed-genetic-genealogy-sites-work-law-enforcement

I note the sites, although they say that they don't release data to LE, apparently have an "opt out" vs an "opt in" for releasing data to law enforcement. I'm still concerned (and not just for this case) about LE creating fake accounts to get the DNA data. Both from the legal and scientific aspects.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: dogmush on January 05, 2023, 10:00:36 AM
Very cursory, but more info on using the genealogy sites:

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/idaho-murder-suspect-nabbed-genetic-genealogy-sites-work-law-enforcement

I note the sites, although they say that they don't release data to LE, apparently have an "opt out" vs an "opt in" for releasing data to law enforcement. I'm still concerned (and not just for this case) about LE creating fake accounts to get the DNA data. Both from the legal and scientific aspects.

And that's before you realize that there's no way they got a nice saliva sample off the crime scene, so they probably took a small sample and ran it through something like a PCR to get enought to send into their fake account.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: MillCreek on January 05, 2023, 11:43:28 AM
The Seattle media had live coverage last night of a Pennsylvania State Police airplane flying into the Moscow-Pullman regional airport to deliver him to the county jail in Moscow.  That means that in the next day or so, the probable cause affidavit for his arrest will be released and we can see what sort of evidence is listed.  Idaho state law provides that the affidavit cannot be released until the defendant makes an initial appearance in an Idaho court and is served with the affidavit.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: MillCreek on January 05, 2023, 04:06:26 PM
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/hearing-document-release-likely-in-idaho-slayings-case/

The affidavit is out: the suspect's DNA was recovered on a knife sheath found at the crime scene, and a car matching the description of the suspect's car was seen in the area several times leading up to the crime, as well as cellphone data showing he was in the area.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 05, 2023, 06:45:20 PM
I have to say that Corporal Payne writes a helluva lot better than most police officers.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: gunsmith on January 05, 2023, 10:43:12 PM
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/hearing-document-release-likely-in-idaho-slayings-case/

The affidavit is out: the suspect's DNA was recovered on a knife sheath found at the crime scene, and a car matching the description of the suspect's car was seen in the area several times leading up to the crime, as well as cellphone data showing he was in the area.

ah, I think ( if he's guilty/I think he is )  he was so used to theory and not practice that it didn't occur to him to wear the sheath on a good belt.
He could have simply painted it black to match his clothing .

thread drift, I have been wanting to collect vintage KABARS , I have one,  hopefully this will not affect availability
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: sumpnz on January 05, 2023, 11:50:54 PM
I just don’t get how someone so supposedly smart, and a criminology grad student, could fail to grasp how much evidence is available simply from having his cell phone on his person when surveiling his victims and then assaulting them.  I’m not about to commit any crimes, but if I were my cell phone would be staying behind, likely with some script running to make it look like I’m actively using it. 
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: RoadKingLarry on January 05, 2023, 11:54:43 PM
I just don’t get how someone so supposedly smart, and a criminology grad student, could fail to grasp how much evidence is available simply from having his cell phone on his person when surveiling his victims and then assaulting them.  I’m not about to commit any crimes, but if I were my cell phone would be staying behind, likely with some script running to make it look like I’m actively using it.

Dunning-Kreuger comes to mind
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 06, 2023, 12:12:10 AM
I'm curious about the fact that his father traveled to Washington to drive back to Pennsylvania with him. I'd like to know why. Did he tell his father that he had just murdered four people? Is his father an accessory after the fact? (Like the parents of that young man in Florida who murdered his girlfriend while they were van camping and then drove her van back across the country to his parents house. I think most people are fairly certain that his parents knew he was the killer, but they played innocent and made statements hoping for the young woman's safe return.)
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: sumpnz on January 06, 2023, 12:36:13 AM
I'm curious about the fact that his father traveled to Washington to drive back to Pennsylvania with him. I'd like to know why. Did he tell his father that he had just murdered four people? Is his father an accessory after the fact? (Like the parents of that young man in Florida who murdered his girlfriend while they were van camping and then drove her van back across the country to his parents house. I think most people are fairly certain that his parents knew he was the killer, but they played innocent and made statements hoping for the young woman's safe return.)

Most likely it was a long pre-planned thing probably from before the semester started just because a cross country drive is mind numbing and it’s hard to stay awake.  I’d bet the dad drove out to WSU with his son back in September, with the plan all along to drive home with his son.  Possible it was a last minute decision, and possible he was wanting to help hide evidence, but that’s low on the probability scale.

Also, in the FL case I’ve seen zero evidence the parents were accessories after the fact.  Lots of speculation, mostly driven by the girl’s family, who have a vested interest due to ongoing litigation, in making them look bad.  I admit, lots of things that look suspicious there, but that’s not evidence.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Ben on January 06, 2023, 08:02:10 AM
On the dad, it was preplanned for them to drive to PA for Christmas vacation. The full affidavit has a pretty damning chain of cell phone pings. If he turns out to be guilty, he's the worst criminology PhD student ever. Here is the full affidavit:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/05/us/read-the-idaho-affidavit/index.html
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: MillCreek on January 06, 2023, 08:56:51 AM
The other thing that I learned from the affidavit is that there sure are a lot of cameras all over the place that can be used for tracking.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: French G. on January 06, 2023, 09:45:28 AM
The other thing that I learned from the affidavit is that there sure are a lot of cameras all over the place that can be used for tracking.

This and the feds weaseling around the genealogy site policies are the only news here. The other idiotic behavior whenever a white girl with a nice rack is killed is just valueless. This is not two months national news worthy.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 06, 2023, 10:48:55 AM
Most likely it was a long pre-planned thing probably from before the semester started just because a cross country drive is mind numbing and it’s hard to stay awake.  I’d bet the dad drove out to WSU with his son back in September, with the plan all along to drive home with his son.  Possible it was a last minute decision, and possible he was wanting to help hide evidence, but that’s low on the probability scale.


:shrug:

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I've driven across the country solo many times and I enjoyed each and every trip.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Ben on January 06, 2023, 11:21:33 AM
:shrug:

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I've driven across the country solo many times and I enjoyed each and every trip.

I like doing long solo trips myself, but I think that is far in the minority if you do a poll (of normal people, not an APS poll).
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Perd Hapley on January 06, 2023, 11:55:24 AM
This and the feds weaseling around the genealogy site policies are the only news here. The other idiotic behavior whenever a white girl with a nice rack is killed is just valueless. This is not two months national news worthy.

Conspiracy Bro I work with was complaining that more people follow Johnny Depp than follow whatever ID murders podcast he listens to. For some reason, it was favorite story. Which is odd, because he normally likes to make sure everyone knows he doesn't care or doesn't follow whatever current event is being discussed.  ;/
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: 230RN on January 06, 2023, 01:51:22 PM
I just don’t get how someone so supposedly smart, and a criminology grad student, could fail to grasp how much evidence is available simply from having his cell phone on his person when surveiling his victims and then assaulting them.  I’m not about to commit any crimes, but if I were my cell phone would be staying behind, likely with some script running to make it look like I’m actively using it. 

I hate to admit it, but I superstitiously keep time-stamped grocery and other receipts for a while in case I ever need an alibi.

Stupid, ain't it?  Yeah, I admit it.

Terry, 230RN
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 06, 2023, 02:17:24 PM
I hate to admit it, but I superstitiously keep time-stamped grocery and other receipts for a while in case I ever need an alibi.

Stupid, ain't it?  Yeah, I admit it.


Pro tip: If you stop at any branch of your favorite supermarket chain while scoping out a prospective crime scene ... don't flash your membership card to get the 5% discount.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: gunsmith on January 07, 2023, 12:03:18 AM
  at work, the only place I now talk face to face with people ( since I had to stop going to local AA )  the girl in HR is really into true crime stuff , she's not really following the case as close as I am but at least enough to have a conversation.
     I find it very interesting myself, it is unusual to have 3 attractive girls killed in this sort of gruesome manner.
 Apparently, he killed the sportsdude by slicing his femoral artery from top of the leg to the ankles.
 I guess to prevent him from fighting as well as dying quickly but living long enough to see what was happening to his girlfriend.
 I have not heard what he did to the girls.
 After hearing what he did to sportsdude, I do not really want to visualize the girls injuries.
 What I really want to know is the motive, did he have some kind of conflict with the girls?
 
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: sumpnz on January 07, 2023, 12:17:37 AM
  at work, the only place I now talk face to face with people ( since I had to stop going to local AA )  the girl in HR is really into true crime stuff , she's not really following the case as close as I am but at least enough to have a conversation.
     I find it very interesting myself, it is unusual to have 3 attractive girls killed in this sort of gruesome manner.
 Apparently, he killed the sportsdude by slicing his femoral artery from top of the leg to the ankles.
 I guess to prevent him from fighting as well as dying quickly but living long enough to see what was happening to his girlfriend.
 I have not heard what he did to the girls.
 After hearing what he did to sportsdude, I do not really want to visualize the girls injuries.
 What I really want to know is the motive, did he have some kind of conflict with the girls?
 

My best guess is he creeped on one (or more) of the girls and she probably not only rejected him but mocked him over his interest in her.  The killings were his form of payback.

He was supposedly mocked relentlessly in high school.  Possibly college too.  Had a reputation for being creepily persistent with women he was attracted to. 
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 07, 2023, 01:58:40 AM
My best guess is he creeped on one (or more) of the girls and she probably not only rejected him but mocked him over his interest in her.  The killings were his form of payback.


At this point, that's as good a guess as any.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Perd Hapley on January 07, 2023, 02:28:26 AM
So it's the incel menace, then?  ;/
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 07, 2023, 05:01:43 PM
So it's the incel menace, then?  ;/

They used to say that, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." I guess that was before the advent of incels.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: sumpnz on January 07, 2023, 05:16:47 PM
They used to say that, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." I guess that was before the advent of incels.

Only 40% of men historically succeeded in reproducing.  Incels are a long time issue, and why many civilizations would go to war.  They needed to reduce the incel population before they got uppity.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: JTHunter on January 07, 2023, 10:13:09 PM
I note the sites, although they say that they don't release data to LE, apparently have an "opt out" vs an "opt in" for releasing data to law enforcement. I'm still concerned (and not just for this case) about LE creating fake accounts to get the DNA data. Both from the legal and scientific aspects.

That lack of privacy and "discretion" are the main reasons I won't use any of those places.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: gunsmith on January 08, 2023, 07:31:29 PM
 new theory I heard on youtube, he purposely left the sheath there to throw the investigators off, he was hoping the cops would be looking for a military or Marine type, the snap on the loop that secures the handle is where they got the DNA from.  Seems plausible
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: sumpnz on January 08, 2023, 07:46:02 PM
new theory I heard on youtube, he purposely left the sheath there to throw the investigators off, he was hoping the cops would be looking for a military or Marine type, the snap on the loop that secures the handle is where they got the DNA from.  Seems plausible

If so that was a massive self-own. 

If he wanted to throw them off using a cell phone tied to someone else, using a stolen car for transport, or planting some kind of evidence at the scene to implicate someone else would have made more sense and been more effective.  But most people aren’t that smart or able to think it through far enough ahead.  Most crimes like this are emotional responses not coldly logical.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: dogmush on January 09, 2023, 10:19:34 AM
Plot twist:. ^^^ All of that is what the real killer did. [tinfoil] [tinfoil]
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Perd Hapley on January 09, 2023, 03:24:11 PM
new theory I heard on youtube, he purposely left the sheath there to throw the investigators off, he was hoping the cops would be looking for a military or Marine type, the snap on the loop that secures the handle is where they got the DNA from.  Seems plausible

That sounds like the kind of thing you see in all the "procedural" shows. "The perp used this really common knife that's been a top seller in the commercial market for decades, as well as appearing in TV, movies, and video games. Only a Marine would use that knife."
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: sumpnz on January 09, 2023, 04:11:34 PM
Plot twist:. ^^^ All of that is what the real killer did. [tinfoil] [tinfoil]

To get the right make, model, generation and color of car to match the dupe you’re framing with spoofed cell phone is beyond what even the Clinton’s would have done.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: WLJ on January 09, 2023, 04:43:10 PM
To get the right make, model, generation and color of car to match the dupe you’re framing with spoofed cell phone is beyond what even the Clinton’s would have done.

If the Clintons it would have been a mass suicide.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 09, 2023, 05:05:57 PM
That sounds like the kind of thing you see in all the "procedural" shows. "The perp used this really common knife that's been a top seller in the commercial market for decades, as well as appearing in TV, movies, and video games. Only a Marine would use that knife."

Do the real Marine Ka-Bars even have leather sheaths these days?
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: gunsmith on January 16, 2023, 09:04:51 PM
Do the real Marine Ka-Bars even have leather sheaths these days?

I doubt it, I bet the new woke pride military is not even letting the kids have a multitool without being in an active combat zone.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Perd Hapley on January 17, 2023, 01:33:49 AM
Does the Corps issue those knives, or are they something they buy at the PX? Assuming it's the latter, the sheath could be whatever.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: RocketMan on January 17, 2023, 02:56:45 AM
Does the Corps issue those knives, or are they something they buy at the PX? Assuming it's the latter, the sheath could be whatever.

They were not an issue item when I was in, at least not for my MOS.  You had to buy them at the PX.  This was back in the 70s.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: dogmush on January 17, 2023, 08:20:18 AM
There are active NSN's on them, so a unit could order them and issue them, but I don't know how many do.

1095-01-581-9100  Knife, Combat

OVERALL LENGTH: 9.250 INCHES NOMINAL
UNPACKAGED UNIT WEIGHT: 0.380 POUNDS
PART NAME ASSIGNED BY CONTROLLING AGENCY: FULL SIZE USMC KA-BAR, STRAIGHT EDGE
SPECIAL FEATURES: BLADE LENGTH:7.000 IN.; SHAPE; CLIP; EDGE ANGLE; 20.0 DEG.; STEEL; 1095 CRO-VAN; HANDLE STACKED LEATHER; MOLLE COMPATIBLE SHEATH
MATERIAL: CARBON


Couldn't tell you what the "MOLLE Compatible Sheath" is, although a couple other models specify glass filled nylon sheath, while this one doesn't.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Hawkmoon on January 17, 2023, 12:09:52 PM
I'm pretty certain this is the Molle-compatible sheath -- and it ain't leather.

https://www.kabar.com/products/1271S
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Perd Hapley on January 17, 2023, 12:35:51 PM
I'm pretty certain this is the Molle-compatible sheath -- and it ain't leather.

https://www.kabar.com/products/1271S

If the sheath don't fit you must acquit!
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: WLJ on January 17, 2023, 12:38:17 PM
If the sheath don't fit you must acquit!

Wonder if his lawyer will remember to tell him to stick his thump out hard as he's trying to put them on for the jury. See, doesn't fit.  ;/
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: BobR on January 18, 2023, 01:47:35 PM
Back in the early 2000s the USMC switched over to the OKC-3S as their bayonet/fighting knife and quite a few K Bars ended up at DRMO auctions. I picked up a lot of ten for about 10 dollars each. I think I have two left. Most of them I used for trade bait or gifts. They all came with leather sheaths with a belt loop.

(https://i.imgur.com/VkxgmhP.jpg)

bob


Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2023, 10:22:11 AM
This is saying he could get a firing squad

Idaho student murders suspect Bryan Kohberger could face death by firing squad under proposed law if convicted
https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-student-murders-suspect-bryan-kohberger-face-death-firing-squad-proposed-bill-convicted
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Ben on February 28, 2023, 10:28:21 AM
This is saying he could get a firing squad

The firing squad in general has been getting pushed here by some lately, mainly because murderdeathkill drugs are unavailable (I don't understand how).

In the meantime, we seem to have an abundance of Nitrogen laying around, but still, no one seems to consider it as an alternative.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: MillCreek on February 28, 2023, 11:29:11 AM
The firing squad in general has been getting pushed here by some lately, mainly because murderdeathkill drugs are unavailable (I don't understand how).

In the meantime, we seem to have an abundance of Nitrogen laying around, but still, no one seems to consider it as an alternative.

For the past several years, the drug manufacturers and wholesalers have made a concerted effort to ban the use of their products in executions through contracts and other means.  The legitimate supply chain for those drugs is now almost non-existent for the typical Department of Corrections. Many states have had to modify their execution protocols or come up with alternatives, some of which have not worked well and led to prolonged suffering on the part of the prisoners. I have read that Nevada and Nebraska are currently using midazolam and Fentanyl for their protocols, and this may become more popular in the future.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: WLJ on February 28, 2023, 11:33:28 AM
Rope, it's cheap and reusable
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: sumpnz on February 28, 2023, 11:38:15 AM
The firing squad in general has been getting pushed here by some lately, mainly because murderdeathkill drugs are unavailable (I don't understand how).

In the meantime, we seem to have an abundance of Nitrogen laying around, but still, no one seems to consider it as an alternative.

Most of the lethal injection drugs come from Europe and they’re anti-death penalty.  The usual solution is to get a compounding pharmacy to make it but there have been problems with that stuff not working properly supposedly.

Firing squads are fine.  Death hurts.  I’m sick of the insistence that it not hurt for the most depraved amongst us.  I have my issues with capital punishment but that’s more about potentially innocent people being executed than the manner of execution.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: MechAg94 on February 28, 2023, 11:45:07 AM
I'm pretty certain this is the Molle-compatible sheath -- and it ain't leather.

https://www.kabar.com/products/1271S

I bought a Kbar as a gift a few years ago and the model I bought had a leather sheath.  They have a number of different knife models.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: RoadKingLarry on February 28, 2023, 01:09:29 PM
Rope, it's cheap and reusable

And gravity is free.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: sumpnz on February 28, 2023, 01:32:19 PM
Rope, it's cheap and reusable

Professional long drop hangmen don’t reuse the rope.  The amount of stretch goes way down in a used rope and calculating appropriate drops goes out the window with previously used rope.

Now, if you’re doing short drop or just hoisting the person up to strangle them then used rope is fine.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: RoadKingLarry on February 28, 2023, 01:46:39 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re457SbYWLs
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Ben on February 28, 2023, 01:47:44 PM

Firing squads are fine.  Death hurts. 

I mean, there's a bunch of methods that many modern people would consider "gruesome" that are actually very quick deaths. Probably better than chemicals. But nobody is comfortable with headless bodies and stuff.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: sumpnz on February 28, 2023, 02:05:37 PM
I’ve personally killed hundreds of chickens and turkeys, and several sheep.  While bloody the animals are usually unconscious within 5 seconds and dead (meaning heart stopped and death throes complete) within 2-3 minutes. 

While I understand the desire to not have very gory and bloody deaths in executions of prisoners, this idea that their deaths should super peaceful and painless is wrong.  Excessive pain and suffering should be avoided, eg torture methods.  But disallowing “cruel and unusual” doesn’t mean totally pain free.

Firing squads, hanging, N2 asphyxiation, etc are all fairly understood and inexpensive.  N2 is probably the most forgiving of less than ideal, ummm, execution (pun intended).  But done right firing squads and hanging are minimally painful to the condemned. 
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 28, 2023, 10:02:41 PM

While I understand the desire to not have very gory and bloody deaths in executions of prisoners, this idea that their deaths should super peaceful and painless is wrong.  Excessive pain and suffering should be avoided, eg torture methods.  But disallowing “cruel and unusual” doesn’t mean totally pain free.


This.

Personally, the idea of being laid on a table and injected bothers me a whole lot more than standing in front of some rifles.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Pb on March 01, 2023, 01:51:39 PM
I mean, there's a bunch of methods that many modern people would consider "gruesome" that are actually very quick deaths.

Detcord!
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: lee n. field on March 01, 2023, 02:22:38 PM
Detcord!

Being burned at the stake, and as a mercy they put a collar stuffed with black powder around your neck.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 01, 2023, 03:05:08 PM
Being burned at the stake, and as a mercy they put a collar stuffed with black power around your neck.

Freudian slip?
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: lee n. field on March 01, 2023, 03:10:47 PM
Freudian slip?

fixed
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: BobR on March 01, 2023, 03:16:51 PM

This.

Personally, the idea of being laid on a table and injected bothers me a whole lot more than standing in front of some rifles.

I don't mind the lethal injection but it is way to easy on the person being executed. In a good case they are rendered unconscious and then given a sedative and a large dose of potassium. They go to sleep and that's it. In my world of lethal injection they would be given a whopping dose (5mg/kg) of rocuronium (neuromuscular blocker/paralytic) and let them lay there paralyzed and contemplating their life as darkness descends from lack of oxygen getting to the brain. But some people would consider that cruel.

bob
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Pb on March 02, 2023, 11:01:21 AM
I've kind of wondered about just cuffing killers and chaining them to a cement block and tossing them in the ocean.  No body to dispose of afterwards, no mess.

Is that cruel and unusual?  No more cruel than a short drop hanging I suppose.

I want to obey the bill of rights after all.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: dogmush on March 02, 2023, 11:41:54 AM
I've kind of wondered about just cuffing killers and chaining them to a cement block and tossing them in the ocean.  No body to dispose of afterwards, no mess.

Is that cruel and unusual?  No more cruel than a short drop hanging I suppose.

I want to obey the bill of rights after all.

Would violate MARPOL 73/78 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARPOL_73/78).  You need to read the sticker on your boat again.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Pb on March 03, 2023, 01:03:22 PM
Shucks.  I thought I had something there.   :mad:
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: cordex on March 03, 2023, 01:28:10 PM
Shucks.  I thought I had something there.   :mad:
Don't give up on your dreams.  Burial at sea is a thing, you just have to haul them way out and seal them in a weighted bag first, right?
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: 230RN on March 03, 2023, 01:50:07 PM
I object to capital punishent mainly on the grounds that it's apparent that the justice system is flawed and many innocents have been incarcerated or executed incorrectly.  I therefore, on theoretical grounds, would prefer that we not have capital punishment at all.

And let's remember, with our descriptions of cruel capital punishments herein that the ultimate purpose should be (in my opinion)  their removal from society, and not vengeance.  No matter how reprehensible and outrageous the original crime was.

"Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord," no matter how interpreted. (Deuteronomy 32:35,Romans 12:17-19)*

It's not your job, and you should not pretend to be the agency of the Lord's vengeance.  (This has been an excuse that's been used too often for cruelty in the name of "justice.")

Just removal from society for life ... or until modern methods happen to demonstrate their innocence.

Also sprach Terry, 230RN

" Don't bring up the old an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth quotation.  This is another example of how the Bible seems to contradict itself, but that's another issue. Let the Lord do the eye-taking and tooth-pulling.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 03, 2023, 01:51:48 PM
I think as long as you're beyond the 12 mile limit your OK.

http://dynamic-ews.com/Tariffs/Standards%20Regulations/General%20Marine%20Discharge%20(21-Aug-2010).pdf
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 03, 2023, 01:55:25 PM
Quote
I have no particular objections to capital punishment excpet that it's apparent that the justice system is flawed and many innocents have been incarcerated or executed incorrectly.  I therefore, on theoretical grounds, would prefer that we not have capital punishment at all.

I agree with you but would make exceptions where there is no doubt of guilt. A few example of that would be the any of the mass murderers that were caught in the act, Ft Hood shooter, Parkland School shooter, Aurora theater shooter and similar offenders. As well as elected officials that that violate their oath of office and "justice system" officials that willfully convict innocent people.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: WLJ on March 03, 2023, 02:05:46 PM
I agree with you but would make exceptions where there is no doubt of guilt. A few example of that would be the any of the mass murderers that were caught in the act, Ft Hood shooter, Parkland School shooter, Aurora theater shooter and similar offenders. As well as elected officials that that violate their oath of office and "justice system" officials that willfully convict innocent people.

This
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: 230RN on March 03, 2023, 02:11:43 PM
I agree with you but would make exceptions where there is no doubt of guilt. A few example of that would be the any of the mass murderers that were caught in the act, Ft Hood shooter, Parkland School shooter, Aurora theater shooter and similar offenders. As well as elected officials that that violate their oath of office and "justice system" officials that willfully convict innocent people.

"No doubt" notwithstanding, the goal should be removal from society, not to execute vengeance, which is the underlying root of your position if you examine it closely.

As an amusing aside, I would like to agree with you on "violating their oaths oif office" and "willfulluly convicting" for the sake of their career.  "Like to" agree, but not completely.  Removal from society in terms of incarceration will suffice in Terry's world.

Terry, 230RN
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: sumpnz on March 03, 2023, 02:13:53 PM
I agree with you but would make exceptions where there is no doubt of guilt. A few example of that would be the any of the mass murderers that were caught in the act, Ft Hood shooter, Parkland School shooter, Aurora theater shooter and similar offenders. As well as elected officials that that violate their oath of office and "justice system" officials that willfully convict innocent people.

Death penalty needs a higher standard than non-death penalty.  Been saying that for years.

With this guy that (allegedly) knifed the U of Idaho kids, my willingness to support the death penalty will depend heavily upon the nature of the evidence used to convict.  If genealogical DNA and cell phone tracking is all they really have i’d be hard pressed to even convict let alone support the death penalty.  If they have DNA from the blood of several victims, or the dog, in his car, the knife used with DNA from the victims from his apartment or parents home, etc my reticence will diminish quickly.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 03, 2023, 02:15:41 PM
The case of Richard Jewel comes to mind here.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Pb on March 03, 2023, 02:27:58 PM
It's not your job, and you should not pretend to be the agency of the Lord's vengeance.  (This has been an excuse that's been used too often for cruelty in the name of "justice.")

There is no biblical case for opposing the death penalty.  It is mandated for murder in the Noahide commandments.  Noahide laws were intended to bind all mankind, not just the Hebrew nation.

Genesis 9:6
 Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human shall that person's blood be shed; for in his own image God made humankind.

I respect, though do not agree with, your opposition based on mistakes in application.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: RocketMan on March 03, 2023, 02:45:49 PM
I respect, though do not agree with, your opposition based on mistakes in application.

I bet you'd change your mind if you were the innocent person on the gallows, and the lever was about to be pulled.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: cordex on March 03, 2023, 02:53:04 PM
I bet you'd change your mind if you were the innocent person on the gallows, and the lever was about to be pulled.
Someone about to be murdered by a released or escaped killer might also second guess their previous opposition to the death penalty.  Neither extreme is sufficient in and of itself to decide the issue.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: 230RN on March 03, 2023, 03:12:57 PM
Someone about to be murdered by a released or escaped killer might also second guess their previous opposition to the death penalty.  Neither extreme is sufficient in and of itself to decide the issue.

Therefore we must default to the "let's not do anything that is irrevocable but possibly wrong" position.  I.e., "removal from society by incarceration" as opposed to "removal from society by irrevocable execution."

Terry, 230RN
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 03, 2023, 04:09:45 PM
There is no biblical case for opposing the death penalty.  It is mandated for murder in the Noahide commandments.  Noahide laws were intended to bind all mankind, not just the Hebrew nation.

Genesis 9:6
 Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human shall that person's blood be shed; for in his own image God made humankind.



Exactly. Vengeance is for the Lord. Forgiveness is for the individual believer. The government should (mainly) stick to justice.* Unless you’re happy with Mayor Lightfoot’s job performance…


*There may be cases for pardons and commutations, from time to time.


" Don't bring up the old an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth quotation.  This is another example of how the Bible seems to contradict itself, but that's another issue. Let the Lord do the eye-taking and tooth-pulling.

The passage you're talking about is specifically about a legal code for the people of Israel; it's not about personal morality. Vengeance would mean that, if you put out my eye; I hunt you down, and take out yours, just to satisfy myself (or my family's honor, etc.) Justice would mean that an impartial judge has your eye removed, if that satisfies what the law has prescribed as the appropriate punishment. One is about my feelings; the other is about what’s best for society.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: 230RN on March 05, 2023, 08:17:38 AM
 ^ I presented the possibility of Biblical contradictions and hoped to set it aside as another issue.  Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned the "vengeance" quote at all.

The case of Richard Jewel comes to mind here.

It always does, as well as several examples of aggressive prosecution for the sake of enhancing one's career.

Terry, 230RN

REF:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Jewell
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Pb on March 06, 2023, 09:27:32 AM
I bet you'd change your mind if you were the innocent person on the gallows, and the lever was about to be pulled.

I think this is a good argument, though not sufficient in my opinion.

There are a lot of things society does that are important, even though there is a risk of innocent people dying as a result.

Most obviously, we allow police to carry guns, even though they may (and do) shoot innocent people by accident sometimes.  I believe this is an acceptable risk because of the benefits of allowing police use firearms to defend themselves and others outweighs the risks.  The same can be said about allowing regular people to carry guns.  There are risks that innocent people will be shot by mistake.  This does happen sometimes... but it does prove that firearms carriage should be banned.



If a policeman or CCWer were to shoot me by accident, might I feel that all police/CCWers should be disarmed? Maybe... but that would not demonstrate that this position would be correct, would it?  When deciding things like this, we need to look at both the benefits as well as the costs. 

I believe the same about capital punishment.  Eliminating predators and deterring crime is worth the small risk of fatal mistakes.

You may disagree, and that is ok.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: RocketMan on March 06, 2023, 10:24:48 AM
I think this is a good argument, though not sufficient in my opinion.

There are a lot of things society does that are important, even though there is a risk of innocent people dying as a result.

Most obviously, we allow police to carry guns, even though they may (and do) shoot innocent people by accident sometimes.  I believe this is an acceptable risk because of the benefits of allowing police use firearms to defend themselves and others outweighs the risks.  The same can be said about allowing regular people to carry guns.  There are risks that innocent people will be shot by mistake.  This does happen sometimes... but it does prove that firearms carriage should be banned.



If a policeman or CCWer were to shoot me by accident, might I feel that all police/CCWers should be disarmed? Maybe... but that would not demonstrate that this position would be correct, would it?  When deciding things like this, we need to look at both the benefits as well as the costs. 

I believe the same about capital punishment.  Eliminating predators and deterring crime is worth the small risk of fatal mistakes.

You may disagree, and that is ok.

I do disagree because all of the examples you listed do not really compare to capital punishment.  They are inherently different in that they are instantaneous, not the result of drawn out, deliberate decision making in the legal system.
I used to be all for capital punishment, with a very strong "hang 'em high" attitude.  But that changed once I realized just how often the judicial system screws up and wrongly convicts innocent people.  I just don't want extremely fallible government agencies making capital punishment decisions because I am convinced they are getting it wrong too often.  I am simply not willing to pay the price of any wrongful executions.
Life without parole in the deepest, darkest cell there is works just fine.  In my opinion, that is a fate worse than death.  And it is reversible if it is later found the person was wrongfully convicted,
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Ben on March 06, 2023, 10:41:49 AM
I am in the same camp as Rocketman. Too many "oops" exonerations. I am still fully in favor of the death penalty for absolutely, 100% provable murders, and examples of such are listed above by others.

Otherwise, there might be better search wording to use, but here's some links on exonerations:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=number+of+people+on+death+row+vs+dna+exoneration&atb=v314-1&ia=web

It appears there is one exoneration for every eight people executed. I probably wouldn't get in my car and go on a public road if I had a 1 in 8 chance of being killed. The "mistakes rarely happen and are worth it to society" argument would be more open to debate if it were 1 in 10,000. I'd feel more comfortable with 1 in 100,000.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: cordex on March 06, 2023, 10:43:23 AM
Life without parole in the deepest, darkest cell there is works just fine.  In my opinion, that is a fate worse than death.  And it is reversible if it is later found the person was wrongfully convicted,
I'm not sure that decades in prison is ever "reversible".
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Pb on March 06, 2023, 10:55:25 AM
I do disagree because all of the examples you listed do not really compare to capital punishment.  They are inherently different in that they are instantaneous, not the result of drawn out, deliberate decision making in the legal system.

Because the legal system is so long and drawn out, it is less likely that fatal mistakes will be made.

Capital punishment compares favorably to allowing police to carry guns in this instance.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: RoadKingLarry on March 06, 2023, 11:03:21 AM
Quote
I am in the same camp as Rocketman. Too many "oops" exonerations. I am still fully in favor of the death penalty for absolutely, 100% provable murders, and examples of such are listed above by others.

Not to mention the deliberate malfeasance of persecutorial and judicial misconduct. Because "they knew" they had the right guy.
We routinely see examples of the actors for the state deliberately withholding exculpatory evidence in non-capitol cases I have zero doubt those same people would do the same thing in a death penalty case.

I'm a proponent of the death penalty but only in cases where there is no possible doubt of the guilt of the offender as I mentioned earlier.

Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: RocketMan on March 06, 2023, 03:37:45 PM
Because the legal system is so long and drawn out, it is less likely that fatal mistakes will be made.

I have no idea where you got that notion.  Does not compute.

Capital punishment compares favorably to allowing police to carry guns in this instance.

Non-sequitur.  There is no logical comparison between the two.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: RocketMan on March 06, 2023, 03:40:06 PM
I'm not sure that decades in prison is ever "reversible".

Reversible in the sense that death is not.  An innocent person released from decades in prison at least has some minimal chance of restoring some semblance of normalcy to their life.  An executed person is SOL if they were later found to have been innocent.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: cordex on March 06, 2023, 04:22:04 PM
Reversible in the sense that death is not.  An innocent person released from decades in prison at least has some minimal chance of restoring some semblance of normalcy to their life.  An executed person is SOL if they were later found to have been innocent.
Of course I understand what you meant, but you also described lifetime imprisonment as a fate worse than death.  I understand your argument is that it is a better choice for someone who has been wrongly convicted because they might eventually be released, but there are going to be innocent people who are going to suffer that fate worse than death until they die.  That it is theoretically reversible might not be much comfort to them.  For that matter, way, way more people are murdered each year in prison than are executed.

Of course, there's also the complexity that some "innocent" people in prison are innocent only of the crime they were convicted of and releasing them in the name of justice might actually be serving injustice.  If we're talking edge cases, that's got to be considered.

Again, I get the sentiment, but it isn't as straightforward as "prison is reversible".

Edit: hard to be innocent of a crime you committed ... changed that to "of the crime they were convicted of"
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: JN01 on March 06, 2023, 04:22:44 PM
Life without parole in the deepest, darkest cell there is works just fine.  In my opinion, that is a fate worse than death.

Nope, can't happen, inmates have rights.  Solitary confinement for anything other than brief time periods is considered torture.  They have to be given opportunities for recreation, education, treatment programs, visitation, etc, etc.  Not an existence I would choose, but it's far from the "hard time" most would imagine.

Lifers have a chance for parole more often than not.  Sometimes they are released early or escape and wreak havoc on society once again.  Those that are never getting released and can't face a death penalty have no disincentive against murdering other inmates or correctional staff.

I don't have all the answers, but a few criminals are so evil that the only way to effectively incapacitate them is to put them down. 
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Ben on March 06, 2023, 04:27:44 PM
I don't have all the answers, but a few criminals are so evil that the only way to effectively incapacitate them is to put them down.

This is also a consideration. Also what I think Cordex was alluding to regarding very bad people who have been and will continue to be criminals, getting out on a technicality. I'll admit that for my side of the argument, we're likely looking at the person with no prior criminal history getting falsely popped on a murder charge as our poster child. That's not always the case with exoneration. Sometimes it can be the very bad person that just happened not to do "X" crime.

As you say, there are no easy answers.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Pb on March 07, 2023, 11:49:51 AM
I have no idea where you got that notion.  Does not compute.

Non-sequitur.  There is no logical comparison between the two.

OK- what I was trying to say is that a long drawn out process such as a trial, with lawyers on both sides, forensic evidence and so on is less likely to make a mistake than a policeman with a drawn gun trying to decide in an object in someone's hand is a cell phone or a gun in a split second.

Longer periods of time to make life-or-death decisions are less likely to create errors than shorter periods of time.

Police kill folks by mistake; one of the reasons they do so is that they have to make very rapid decisions.  Is he going to drop the gun or point it at me?  Is that gun or a wallet he is reaching for?  Is he trying to grab my gun or just rolling around? 

Cops may only have a few seconds to decide.

Contrast this to hearing evidence presented by both sides over the course of weeks.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: sumpnz on March 07, 2023, 12:49:41 PM
OK- what I was trying to say is that a long drawn out process such as a trial, with lawyers on both sides, forensic evidence and so on is less likely to make a mistake than a policeman with a drawn gun trying to decide in an object in someone's hand is a cell phone or a gun in a split second.

Longer periods of time to make life-or-death decisions are less likely to create errors than shorter periods of time.

Police kill folks by mistake; one of the reasons they do so is that they have to make very rapid decisions.  Is he going to drop the gun or point it at me?  Is that gun or a wallet he is reaching for?  Is he trying to grab my gun or just rolling around? 

Cops may only have a few seconds to decide.

Contrast this to hearing evidence presented by both sides over the course of weeks.

Probably most capital cases aren’t drawn out over weeks.  The high profile cases are, but run of the mill murder trials, even where death is possible, take maybe a couple days.  And the majority of defendants have to make do with public defenders that are employed by the same government as the prosecution.  Still I suppose in your example better than the split second decisions of cops, but hardly the drawn out affair you seem to think is normal in the courts.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: cordex on March 07, 2023, 03:29:06 PM
Probably most capital cases aren’t drawn out over weeks.  The high profile cases are, but run of the mill murder trials, even where death is possible, take maybe a couple days.  And the majority of defendants have to make do with public defenders that are employed by the same government as the prosecution.  Still I suppose in your example better than the split second decisions of cops, but hardly the drawn out affair you seem to think is normal in the courts.
To be fair, though, a death row case isn't usually a single case.  It takes an average of something like 15 years to go through all the appeals and finally carry out the execution.  Statistically, a death row inmate is twice as likely to die waiting to be executed than to be executed.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: BobR on March 07, 2023, 04:07:24 PM
To be fair, though, a death row case isn't usually a single case.  It takes an average of something like 15 years to go through all the appeals and finally carry out the execution.  Statistically, a death row inmate is twice as likely to die waiting to be executed than to be executed.

and that is what makes putting a person on death row so much more expensive to the state than just locking them up forever.

bob
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 07, 2023, 05:17:29 PM
This guy was on something when he passed out, and smeared a young woman's body across the front of a building, killing her. Gets 2 years for each of his 4 crimes - but concurrent, so as not to be too hard on the little angel.

https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/crime/urgent-care-ballwin-fatal-crash-guilty-plea-sentence/63-9c3aa1d6-774a-48c7-a6c4-a5e368016662

I'm not totally committed to this, but I could see an argument for making all drugs entirely legal - but if you do stuff like this, you get death.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: 230RN on March 07, 2023, 05:30:55 PM
I am in the same camp as Rocketman. Too many "oops" exonerations. I am still fully in favor of the death penalty for absolutely, 100% provable murders, and examples of such are listed above by others.

Otherwise, there might be better search wording to use, but here's some links on exonerations:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=number+of+people+on+death+row+vs+dna+exoneration&atb=v314-1&ia=web

It appears there is one exoneration for every eight people executed. I probably wouldn't get in my car and go on a public road if I had a 1 in 8 chance of being killed. The "mistakes rarely happen and are worth it to society" argument would be more open to debate if it were 1 in 10,000. I'd feel more comfortable with 1 in 100,000.

I like that idea, but as a realist, I know that sooner or later we'll run into cases where  that "100%" becomes a matter of opinion or prosecutorial or media aggression and we'll be right back where we started from.  Yes, I know the term "caught red-handed," as in "with bloody hands," but the general "100%" principle is flawed  simply because society is flawed.

As far as "punishment" is concerend, I'm well aware there are unprincipled uncaring people among us who will look at their lifetime incarceration simply as an "inconvenience," without any inherent remorse for their actual acts.  'Tis well these are removed from society anyhow.

(Still some typos,l I am sure, but I am now done editing. =D )

Terry, 230RN
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: MechAg94 on March 07, 2023, 05:51:15 PM
This guy was on something when he passed out, and smeared a young woman's body across the front of a building, killing her. Gets 2 years for each of his 4 crimes - but concurrent, so as not to be too hard on the little angel.

https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/crime/urgent-care-ballwin-fatal-crash-guilty-plea-sentence/63-9c3aa1d6-774a-48c7-a6c4-a5e368016662

I'm not totally committed to this, but I could see an argument for making all drugs entirely legal - but if you do stuff like this, you get death.
I tend to lean that way as well.  If you screw up and actually hurt or affect someone else, then the penalties get severe real quick.
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: 230RN on March 08, 2023, 02:23:45 PM
I tend to lean that way as well.  If you screw up and actually hurt or affect someone else, then the penalties get severe real quick.

Agreed in principle.  Practically, however, one must question in advance "How severe is 'severe?' "

Aaaand, as you can see, we're back to the original issue.

Terry, 230RN
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: dogmush on March 08, 2023, 04:48:40 PM
It's also worth noting in these discussions, as Terry did, that "100% obviously guilty" isn't as clear cut as you might think.

For example:  I can easily find people that are 100% sure Kyle Rittenhouse murdered two people on camera.  Without even using the tapes the state doctored for the trial.  Lots of folks would happily let the government kill that innocent kid.

How many other 100% guilty folks didn't have the legal team, or exonerating videos, that Mr. Rittenhouse was lucky enough to have when the Lidless Eye of the State turns it's terrible gaze on them?
Title: Re: Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed
Post by: sumpnz on March 08, 2023, 05:22:36 PM
It's also worth noting in these discussions, as Terry did, that "100% obviously guilty" isn't as clear cut as you might think.

For example:  I can easily find people that are 100% sure Kyle Rittenhouse murdered two people on camera.  Without even using the tapes the state doctored for the trial.  Lots of folks would happily let the government kill that innocent kid.

How many other 100% guilty folks didn't have the legal team, or exonerating videos, that Mr. Rittenhouse was lucky enough to have when the Lidless Eye of the State turns it's terrible gaze on them?
Rittenhouse was super lucky to have all that video, not just of the shootings but of all the context.  Zimmerman wished there was such video of his confrontation with St Trayvon.  That all forensic evidence backed up his story was what got him acquitted.

Idiots will believe whatever they are told to believe.  As much as it suck$, at least via the adversarial nature of a trial, those 2 people were able to prove their innocence.  Far beyond just introducing “reasonable doubt”, which should have been enough.  At least in Rittenhouse’s case it definitely shouldn’t have ever gone to trial.

Even where there is video footage of someone shooting people to death context still matters.