Author Topic: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax  (Read 40922 times)

Waitone

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2008, 05:31:30 PM »
How 'bout lets us drill and pump our own oil.  About two weeks ago there was an announcement of an oil discovery in N and S Dakota and Montana.  Liquid kinda oil.  The new discovery increases US reserves by a factor of 50.  A monumental find.  Shortly there after environmental activists announced plans to register the ground grouse as an endangered species.  If successful the bird will be used to shut down all drilling activity in the area.

We are doing it to ourselves. 
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Manedwolf

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2008, 05:48:30 PM »
This is the article bit that floored me completely.

Quote
Environmentalists worry that horizontal drilling, which allows companies to reach previously untapped reserves, could also enable them to suck oil from federally protected lands or fragile ecosystems without being noticed from above.
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8VHBFEO0.htm

Isn't that THE WHOLE POINT?!

Dntsycnt

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2008, 07:37:20 PM »
"IF I HAVE A MILKSHAKE..."

I think that quote reveals a lot about what those "environmentalists" are really about.

Gewehr98

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2008, 07:56:59 PM »
Hmm...

Quote
With oil prices at $110 a barrel, producers nationwide are suddenly taking a second look at decades-old wells that were considered tapped out and unprofitable when oil sold for one-fifth the price or less. Independent producers and major conglomerates alike are reinvesting millions in these mature wells, using expensive new technology and drilling techniques to eke every last drop out of fields long past their prime -- and often in the middle of suburbia.

Kinda like squeezing that tube of toothpaste into a tight little roll for the last little bit inside.  Then what, Soylent Green Biodiesel?   undecided
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seeker_two

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2008, 03:44:44 AM »
Anytime a government official proposes creating/increasing a tax, my first question is, "Why does the government need the money?".......

I have yet to get a good answer.......  grin
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Firethorn

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2008, 09:34:06 AM »
I think a tax deduction for vehicles that achieves over 30 MPG would probably fly a lot better than a .50 per gallon tax.

Actually charby, I have to disagree with you.

The best way to reduce consumption in a free market society is to increase the cost of the product you want to reduce the consumption off.

Take your 30MPG vehicle credit.  Will it actually reduce consumption?  Looking at CAFE standards in the past, not really.  Unless the tax deduction is HUGE, people will just ignore it.  If it's good, you'll have a lot of people in 30mpg vehicles - but which is better, 2 31 mpg cars on the road with a single passenger each or a single 25mpg car with 2 carpoolers?

Keep the marginal cost of gasoline down, subsidize high mpg cars, and you'll create a situation like in the past where people thought nothing of running 10 miles for a simple errand and not batching trips.

Increase the marginal cost of gasoline, not only will people tend towards higher mpg vehicles naturally, they'll engage in other means of reducing their usage.  Carpooling, living near work, taking the bus, only going on one shopping trip every other week rather than twice a week, etc...

Quote from: ManedWolf
So you've become a democrat now? Given your hatred for Republicans, I'm not surprised.

I'm not a democrat, simply addressing how I'd 'solve' the 'too much oil usage' problem in the USA, given my preferences.  Given that I dislike mandatory 'standards' and like the free market, the easiest way to reduce gasoline usage is to increase it's cost.  The easiest way to do that is to tax it more.  That'll spur conservation, alternatives, all that.  Putting the money raised towards promoting alternatives would be a bonus.  Personally, I'd slap the .50/gallon tax on metropolitan areas and use the money to set up a PRT system.

Quote from: Werewolf
50 cents, a dollar? Doesn't matter. The demand curve for gasoline is so inelastic that people will buy what they need regardless of the cost. There is no other altenative.

It might be short term inelastic, but long term it's at least somewhat elastic.  Look at all the more fuel efficient vehicles coming out now that prices are such that the extra cost for the fuel efficiency makes sense - I'm seeing much more in the way of 6 speed transmissions, for example.  There's also varying levels of 'need'.  I've seen people cut back from multiple trips to stores a week to going to more of a once every other week schedule.

Quote
Mass transit - nice thought but it isn't gonna appear out of thin air.

Really fuel efficient autos - again nice thought but overnight they're not gonna be here.

I like the idea of PRT(personal rapid transit) as I see it as a better solution to replace the car than buses or standard trains, but yeah, that'll take time.  Fuel efficient autos have always been out there, and they're showing up now.  Heck, fuel costs have reduced demand for the really big SUVs, to the point that profit margins aren't as good for them as they used to be.

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Cars that don't use gas - their energy comes from somewhere and my bet it would be electric. What do most electric plants burn to make electricity - a petroleum product and since the conversion losses from petroleum to electricity and back into auto motion is more than from petroleum to gas to motion going electric isn't gonna solve anything.

Actually, most electric plants don't use petroleum, they use coal.  Still a hydrocarbon, but not a liquid from the middle east.  That also discounts that we're finally looking at building new nuclear plants.

As for the efficiency, a car that gets 30% is lucky, and that's going by the energy going into the tank, not the energy needed to get the gas to to the fuel pump.  An electric car is powered by an electric plant that can get 50-60% efficiency over power lines that get 90+%, modern charging is 90+% efficient, and the final usage is something like 95%.  Ending up about 41% efficient overall, which stomps all over gasoline.  Not to mention superior pollution control at the power plant(and getting the pollution away from inner cities).



Quote
Hydrogen - when someone comes up with a cheap way to extract it then yes but once again the infrastructure to deliver it isn't gonna appear overnight.

Over on slashdot, there's a saying:  Hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's an energy storage method.  There are no 'hydrogen mines' or wells.  Most of it is obtained by cracking hydrocarbons today, and electrolysis is inefficient.  In most cases it's more efficient to burn the hydrocarbon directly or use batteries.

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And on and on. Americans are addicted to having a personal means of transport. Not gonna give it up without a fight. All tacking extra taxes on that transport is gonna do is tick off the people.

Thus my suggestion for PRT

Note:  I wouldn't call high gas prices a good thing, just that it's the only realistic way to preserve limited resources.  A 50 cent tax now could spur our movement away from petro fuels by quite some time.

MechAg94

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2008, 12:43:31 PM »
Quote
Over on slashdot, there's a saying:  Hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's an energy storage method.  There are no 'hydrogen mines' or wells.  Most of it is obtained by cracking hydrocarbons today, and electrolysis is inefficient.  In most cases it's more efficient to burn the hydrocarbon directly or use batteries.

That is very right.  Most industrial hydrogen production these days is from natural gas steam reforming.  There are some sources from off gases from other processes, but most is from natural gas.  The producers are looking at coal gassification and other sources, but today it is natural gas. 

You would be better off using Compressed Natural Gas or Liquefied Natural Gas instead of hydrogen.  Houston had an LNG system for many of its buses in the 90's when they got tax incentives from the Energy Dept to do it.  CNG and LNG are still not as energy dense as gasoline and they have a much greater explosive hazard. 
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roo_ster

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2008, 01:21:32 PM »
Hmm...

Quote
With oil prices at $110 a barrel, producers nationwide are suddenly taking a second look at decades-old wells that were considered tapped out and unprofitable when oil sold for one-fifth the price or less. Independent producers and major conglomerates alike are reinvesting millions in these mature wells, using expensive new technology and drilling techniques to eke every last drop out of fields long past their prime -- and often in the middle of suburbia.

Kinda like squeezing that tube of toothpaste into a tight little roll for the last little bit inside.  Then what, Soylent Green Biodiesel?   undecided

No, the next lest expensive source will be exploited.  And so on, until oil is not competitive with some future, yet to be realized, energy source.

My FIL has worked the petroleum industry on & off coming on 40 years.  What is happening is not rocket science, it is just economics.
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Tecumseh

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2008, 07:47:41 PM »
Sure, if .50 cents per gallon works.  If it doesn't, keep raising the tax until consumption drops.  Use the money to develop alternate energy sources.  That, and raise the CAFE standards to something more realistic- say 30+ mpg minimum.
  My thoughts as well.  China asks for at least 40 mpg.  I would ask for a $1.00 raise to get people to start car pooling and walking. The energy crisis is real but many US citizens dont realize it.

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2008, 07:42:32 AM »
Quote
I'm not a democrat, simply addressing how I'd 'solve' the 'too much oil usage' problem in the USA, given my preferences.  Given that I dislike mandatory 'standards' and like the free market, the easiest way to reduce gasoline usage is to increase it's cost.  The easiest way to do that is to tax it more.  That'll spur conservation, alternatives, all that.  Putting the money raised towards promoting alternatives would be a bonus.  Personally, I'd slap the .50/gallon tax on metropolitan areas and use the money to set up a PRT system.

You're not doing a very good job of convincing us that you like the free market. rolleyes
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
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MechAg94

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2008, 08:25:24 AM »
Sure, if .50 cents per gallon works.  If it doesn't, keep raising the tax until consumption drops.  Use the money to develop alternate energy sources.  That, and raise the CAFE standards to something more realistic- say 30+ mpg minimum.
  My thoughts as well.  China asks for at least 40 mpg.  I would ask for a $1.00 raise to get people to start car pooling and walking. The energy crisis is real but many US citizens dont realize it.
They realize it.  Most just don't have a lot of options.  Not everyone has the choice of car pooling and walking.  Screw them I guess.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #61 on: March 24, 2008, 08:40:28 AM »
Sure, if .50 cents per gallon works.  If it doesn't, keep raising the tax until consumption drops.  Use the money to develop alternate energy sources.  That, and raise the CAFE standards to something more realistic- say 30+ mpg minimum.
  My thoughts as well.  China asks for at least 40 mpg.  I would ask for a $1.00 raise to get people to start car pooling and walking. The energy crisis is real but many US citizens dont realize it.

Yeah, that's just great for areas with no public transportation, where neighbors are widely separated and none work anywhere near the same place. Or walking, when it's -20 windchill and several feet of snow.

Hell with them, right? China also has mobile execution vans. You want to use them as something to aspire to?

God, I hate leftists more every day. SELFISH.

HankB

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2008, 09:00:29 AM »
How 'bout lets us drill and pump our own oil.  About two weeks ago there was an announcement of an oil discovery in N and S Dakota and Montana.  Liquid kinda oil.  The new discovery increases US reserves by a factor of 50.  A monumental find.  Shortly there after environmental activists announced plans to register the ground grouse as an endangered species.  If successful the bird will be used to shut down all drilling activity in the area.

We are doing it to ourselves. 
We ARE doing it to ourselves . . .

* Don't pump oil in ANWR - it's pristine, 1000 miles from nowhere, and won't solve our needs 100% forever.

* Don't build wind farms off Cape Cod, they'll ruin Ted Kennedy's view.

* Don't build wind farms in S. Texas, they'll endanger migrating birds.

* Don't mine coal which we have in abundance, it ruins the environment.

* Don't build coal-fired power plants, they emit greenhouse gasses.

* Tear down hydropower dams where possible, so fishies can get upstream more easily.

* Don't drill for more oil off our coasts, well, just because it's bad.

* Don't develop deep water resources (oil, methane hydrates) in mid-ocean until we figure out how to pay tribute to the U.N.

* Don't build nuke plants - haven't you seen The China Syndrome or heard about Chernobyl?

Don't . . . don't . . . don't. An endless litany of obstruction.

The same people who favor more taxes are often the same people who OPPOSE developing more energy, and then turn around, point their finger, and rant that "YOU ARE CAUSING AN ENERGY CRISIS!!"

What chutzpah.
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K Frame

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2008, 09:09:01 AM »
Oh silly you, Manedwolf, public transportation works WONDERS in Europe!

That means it will work wonders here in the United States!

I know because a liberal earth firster told me that a couple of years ago.

When I asked her how that was going to work for people on farms in Nebraska, small towns in rural central Pennsylvania, etc., she just got a glazed, VACUOUS look in her eyes and said "It works wonders in Europe!"

I've talked to piles of cow crap that were more intelligent.
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Ben

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2008, 09:57:47 AM »
Quote
Don't drill for more oil off our coasts, well, just because it's bad.

This one especially kills me given what China and Cuba are doing right off the coast of Florida. But I'm sure they'll be much more environmentally responsible about it than those nasty American oil companies would be.
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Strings

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2008, 09:58:42 AM »
Ummm... Ben? That's EXACTLY what the left fringe thinks...

Firethorn

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2008, 11:37:13 AM »
Quote
I'm not a democrat, simply addressing how I'd 'solve' the 'too much oil usage' problem in the USA, given my preferences.  Given that I dislike mandatory 'standards' and like the free market, the easiest way to reduce gasoline usage is to increase it's cost.  The easiest way to do that is to tax it more.  That'll spur conservation, alternatives, all that.  Putting the money raised towards promoting alternatives would be a bonus.  Personally, I'd slap the .50/gallon tax on metropolitan areas and use the money to set up a PRT system.

You're not doing a very good job of convincing us that you like the free market. rolleyes

Note the quote marks around 'solve' and 'too much oil usage'.  If you present me a defined problem, whatever the problem, I'll try to come up with a solution for it.  If I'm given a scenario where 'too much oil usage' is a problem that MUST be solved by government action, a sin tax would be my general solution, being the one most likely to solve the problem.

Increasing CAFE standards actually tend to backfire as people respond by driving more.  Besides, during price spikes car manufacturers tend to exceed CAFE specs, it's only during times of relativly cheap fuel that they matter.  In addition I blame much of our SUV craze on CAFE - the standards produced vehicles most/many people didn't want, while allowing an outlet in the form of SUVs and trucks.  Without artificial CAFE standards people will tend to gravitate to the vehicle best suited to their needs without being pidgeon holed.

Increase the gas tax by 10 cent increments until you start getting the results you want.  Putting the money gained towards alternatives - such as PRT, is approaching it from both ends.  Besides, at least some implimentations of PRT promise to be far cheaper than the current road system, not to mention reduce pollution*.

In a recent thread over on slashdot it was pointed out that repaving a four lane highway starts at $2 million per mile.  That's more than the construction costs per mile of track for many PRT proposals - and the PRT system can move as many people on average.  Sometimes more, depending on the specific proposal.

On the other end, Yes, I think that we need to start exploiting our own oil and coal supplies.  I also think that we need to be building nuclear plants on a almost crash basis.

*Which I DO care about.

grampster

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2008, 12:05:03 PM »
Quote from: Paddy on March 20, 2008, 02:47:39 PM
Sure, if .50 cents per gallon works.  If it doesn't, keep raising the tax until consumption drops.  Use the money to develop alternate energy sources.  That, and raise the CAFE standards to something more realistic- say 30+ mpg minimum.
 
"My thoughts as well.  China asks for at least 40 mpg.  I would ask for a $1.00 raise to get people to start car pooling and walking. The energy crisis is real but many US citizens dont realize it."  Tecumpseh

Let me be blunt!!

Yes, we have a crisis.  And people who ascribe to this conservation/tax/control know nothing pap are the main reason why.  They are the obstructionists that stand in way of progress, even if the progress is safe, efficacious, and desperately needed.  And also the first to howl and point their finger about how much it costs to heat the homes of the po folk.  Oh, and by the way, the political thought processes held to by suchlike are more directly responsible for "The War for Oil" as it is so fondly called.  Well, that is right.  It is about oil and energy in general.  But the obstructionists are the ones to blame, if blame is to put anyone's feet.  If our country had actually been led in a manner to overcome the looming energy problems in the late 70's, instead of doing everything possible to make sure the problem would not be solved by using reason and gumption and good technology rather than pie in the sky conservation and "alternative energy" sources that are at their best a niche source of additional or stopgap solutions, we wouldn't bother our heads with the  tribalist religious fanatics who are in control of a lot or world's energy. 

Rather than pitching in and trying to help find ways of properly exploiting our abundant natural resources in and about our great country, all they do is run it down and get in the way.  Hypocrites.
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Paddy

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2008, 12:29:00 PM »
Quote
know nothing pap.........You are the obstructionists........you guys are the ones to blame...........all you do is run it down and get in the way.  Hypocrites

Well, that really raised the level of discourse.  You might as well just said "I'm all out of ideas, and I give up but I'm not happy about it."  laugh

Manedwolf

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2008, 12:32:39 PM »
Oh silly you, Manedwolf, public transportation works WONDERS in Europe!

That means it will work wonders here in the United States!

I know because a liberal earth firster told me that a couple of years ago.

When I asked her how that was going to work for people on farms in Nebraska, small towns in rural central Pennsylvania, etc., she just got a glazed, VACUOUS look in her eyes and said "It works wonders in Europe!"

I've talked to piles of cow crap that were more intelligent.

Good point. They don't even think.

Increase the gas tax by 10 cent increments until you start getting the results you want. 

What, armed revolt? I can tell you what my "results" will be.

I'll have to pay more. I'll have to pay more at the pump to fuel my 30mpg car and be punished because I HAVE to commute, because there is NO public transportation, and carpooling is NOT an option. And I'd have a special finger gesture for the people who made me pay more, until such time as I could vote them the HELL out of office.

You want to RAISE TAXES to solve a problem. You're a statist.

grampster

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2008, 12:35:50 PM »
Well, I changed what I said and made it more general and a wide sweeping broom.
I don't want to leave anyone out that deserves the castigation.

 Doesn't change the fact that what I said is true.  The sooner you come to grips with the fact that I'm always right, the better off you'll be.  The Rabbi once told you I'm always right, so mark that down!! police
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Paddy

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2008, 01:21:36 PM »
Well, I don't know how you figure I'm an 'obstructionist'.  Yes, gas and oil are high, and so are oil company profits-both are at record levels.  Oil companies making record profits have absolutely no incentive to put their huge profits into developing new sources.  It makes no economic sense to spend hundreds of billions $ on R&D when they can put that money in their pockets. 

What needs to happen is more competition in the oil business.  Yeah that's right, break up some of these huge international megalopolies just like Theodore Roosevelt did 100 years ago.  Instead, under 30 years of Reganomics we've had mergers and acquisitions resulting in fewer oil companies and less competition.

Same thing happened in the banking and financial industries and that's why you have the 'subprime' crisis today.  Gubmint of the people, by the people and for the people is supposed to look out for the people.  Instead, what we've had for the last 30 years is corporate owned government. Look at the results.  Just great.  rolleyes

grampster

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #72 on: March 24, 2008, 01:45:05 PM »
My memory may be faulty but I think a lot of those mergers you talked about happened just as much on Clinton's watch as RR's.  For the record I've never agreed with the mergers that have happened and still are happening. 

Gee, I seem to remember the evil RR only set in motion true growth and prosperity in America by lowering taxes and regulation.  (The congress spent the money, not Reagan)  Clinton benefited from RR's policies, but soon wrecked them with the largest tax increase ever and set in motion the false economy of liars who ran corporate America in the 90's.  (Can you say Enron?  CEO hanging out in the White House?)

 Clinton worked overtime to destroy Microsoft, a company that was responsible for a paradigm shift in worldwide communication/information/tool for efficiency.  Gee, they didn't get destroyed and the market place seems to be able to get around Microsoft.  All it takes is govenment getting out of the way and letting the capitalists room to do what they do, which is innovate and create wealth.  Two things that government statism/control/tax policy manages to stultify very well.

"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Brad Johnson

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2008, 02:03:15 PM »
Quote
A .50 cent tax ain't nothin' compared to the doubling of gas prices over the last few years.


You hate the increase in gas prices but you support an increase in gas prices?

Okay, now I'm officially confused...

Brad
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Paddy

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #74 on: March 24, 2008, 02:24:56 PM »
Quote
My memory may be faulty but I think a lot of those mergers you talked about happened just as much on Clinton's watch as RR's.

No argument from me.  Clinton is the same corporate appendage Reagan was.  You can't say 'Reagan was good, Clinton was bad, Bush is good' simply along party lines.  The Republicans are not your friends anymore than are the Democrats.  They are all beholden to big money and that comes from the multinationals. They all sold out the common man in exchange for power.

And not to get off track but that's why Obama is likely to be the next POTUS.  He's appealing to a populist hunger on the part of the people for representation.  Nevermind he's the same corporate whore as the other two and will sorely disappoint every sucker who votes for him.