Author Topic: Olmert warns of Syria concessions  (Read 15091 times)

macpherson

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2008, 06:20:46 AM »
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In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.

This was a war of self-defence in the noblest sense of the term. The government of national unity then established decided unanimously: We will take the initiative and attack the enemy, drive him back, and thus assure the security of Israel and the future of the nation.

We did not do this for lack of an alternative. We could have gone on waiting. We could have sent the army home. Who knows if there would have been an attack against us? There is no proof of it. There are several arguments to the contrary.

The Egyptians were concentrating their forces on the borders, I don't know about you but in most parts of the world that would be construed as preparing to attack, and when a country the size of Israel is threatened, any attack could be fatal, so preemptive strike could spell the difference between victory or destruction of the country.  If you see a man pointing a gun at your head, are you going to wait until he pulls the trigger to find out if he's "grandstanding" or not?

When Begin spoke of sending the army home, that's exactly what they did in 1973; the PM and most of the military leaders firmly believed they would not be attacked despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and they almost were annihilated because of it.  A large part of the IDF is reserve forces that have day jobs; mobilizing the entire army to war footing darn near shuts down the country down and has a severe economic impact that can't be sustained for long.  The Arabs took advantage of that when they attacked.  Israel is not guilt-free, I'd definitely say mistakes have been made on both sides, but from the beginning, one has been the defender and one has been the attacker, and by and large that is still the case today.  Israel doesn't fire rockets indiscriminately at civilians, yes there is collateral damage, but at least they are trying to minimize it.  Hamas attacks from behind women and children like cowards, then turns and parades their bodies through the streets wailing about the evil zionists.  I hope and pray that Olmert does not give up the Golan Heights, because there will be rockets flying from it before the ink has even dried on the papers.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2008, 08:32:43 AM »
Israel needs to have peace with Syria.

Yes, we can win a war with them, but the point is, you cannot maintain a country on a war footing forever. It poisons the society with militarism, it's expensive, and if we're constantly at war with them, at one point we are going to lose - it's not possible to win every single time.

The solution is to cede the Golan heights slowly - in increments over, say, 20 years, every increment conditional on good behavior from the Syrians. If they can maintain 20 years of peace, I'm sure they can maintain peace permanently, too.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2008, 08:50:56 AM »
And what if they start using Golan to immediately start shelling again?

Then you have shells raining down on you, and they have Golan. Wow. Good outcome.

Syria is, as usual, offering a hand in peace with the other hand holding a dagger behind their back. As with all those regimes, the clerics who have the ear of the politicians repeat the endless litany, "Israel must be destroyed." They will never stop.

If Israel shakes that hand and get stabbed without demanding to see both hands first, it's its own fault.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2008, 09:01:08 AM »
This is why I spoke of a gradual withdrawal, with all sorts of safeguards.

And they must stop helping the Hez - the Hez ALREADY has rockets that can shell all of Israel, and you know that if war breaks out, they WILL get fired.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MechAg94

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2008, 09:22:05 AM »
If they did that, Syria was not behave and then claim Israel broke the treaty when they stopped giving land back.  The international media would then take up Syria's side and say Israel backed out of the deal. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2008, 09:24:39 AM »
Egypt behaves.

Jordan behaves.

It's quite likely Syria will, too.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2008, 11:37:25 AM »
Report: Israel, Syria agree on 85% of issues

London-based newspaper al-Sharq al-Awsat quotes senior Israeli source involved in unofficial talks between Jerusalem, Damascus, who says main disagreement is on location of border line
Roee Nahmias

A senior Israeli source, who took part in unofficial Turkey-mediated talks between Israel and Syria, has said that the two sides are discussing a border line which will be based on the June 4 1967 borders and the future of the Golan Heights' residents, the London-based Arabic-language al-Sharq al-Awsat newspaper reported Wednesday.

 
The source confirmed that "serious progress has been made in the talks."

According to the Israeli source, the future border line is unclear at this time and there are at least two perceptions regarding its location. The two main disagreements, he said, are the border line in northeastern part of Lake Kinneret and another area up north.

 He noted that the Syrians sought to "touch the Kinneret waters," while the Israeli object.

 
Addressing the settlement in the Golan Heights, the Israeli source said that the two sides have already agreed that the Syrian sovereignty over the Golan was Damascus' right, and that a creative formula must be formed in regards to this issue, in a way which will not cause great tension in Israel.

 
The paper reported that according to the source, 85% of the issues standing between the two countries on the way to a peace deal have already been agreed. One of the issues which have yet to be discussed is Israel's demand that Syria detach itself from Hamas and Hizbullah and break its strategic alliance with Iran.

 
"I am optimistic," the source told the newspaper reporter. "This does not mean that Syria will have to sever its ties with Iran and its followers in Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, but it will join those influencing them in a positive manner  in accordance with the peace relations between Israel and Syria.

 
"We have a clear example for that  the relations between Syria and Turkey, just like Damascus withdrew its support for the PKK (Kurdish militant organization fighting for independence from Turkish rule)."
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

De Selby

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2008, 11:46:53 AM »
Israel needs to have peace with Syria.

Yes, we can win a war with them, but the point is, you cannot maintain a country on a war footing forever. It poisons the society with militarism, it's expensive, and if we're constantly at war with them, at one point we are going to lose - it's not possible to win every single time.

The solution is to cede the Golan heights slowly - in increments over, say, 20 years, every increment conditional on good behavior from the Syrians. If they can maintain 20 years of peace, I'm sure they can maintain peace permanently, too.

An excellent example of thinking ahead with common sense.

All arguments to the contrary about the trustworthiness of Syria, rockets, Hizbullah, etc. do not negate this very simple fact: A country cannot live in a constant state of war with its neighbors, because eventually, it will lose.  Maybe five years from now (extremely unlikely), maybe within 100 years (extremely likely). 

What I find troubling is that people in my country are constantly demanding that Israel not make any accords whatsoever with its neighbors-I can see how that might serve the interests of a small segment of America, but I have no idea how that would serve the Israelis.  It's a toxic international relationship.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Manedwolf

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2008, 11:48:57 AM »
What I find troubling is that people in my country are constantly demanding that Israel not make any accords whatsoever with its neighbors-I can see how that might serve the interests of a small segment of America, but I have no idea how that would serve the Israelis.  It's a toxic international relationship.

Maybe because Israel is like a marksman with a pistol surrounded by angry people with AKs? They only don't shoot because they know that at least one of them will be killed by a return shot. But if Israel lowered that pistol, they'd open fire immediately.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2008, 11:50:29 AM »

Maybe because Israel is like a marksman with a pistol surrounded by angry people with AKs? They only don't shoot because they know that at least one of them will be killed by a return shot. But if Israel lowered that pistol, they'd open fire immediately.

And yet we have peace with Egypt and Jordan.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

De Selby

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2008, 11:54:33 AM »
What I find troubling is that people in my country are constantly demanding that Israel not make any accords whatsoever with its neighbors-I can see how that might serve the interests of a small segment of America, but I have no idea how that would serve the Israelis.  It's a toxic international relationship.

Maybe because Israel is like a marksman with a pistol surrounded by angry people with AKs? They only don't shoot because they know that at least one of them will be killed by a return shot. But if Israel lowered that pistol, they'd open fire immediately.

Wait a second, let's be accurate-it's more like a fully armored tank surrounded by guys with AK's.  The disparity in force is overwhelming, but there's always a chance that sooner or later one of the rabble will get creative and find a way to ruin the tank.

The idea that Israel is somehow stranded in the wilderness and hanging by a thread is myth-it is militarily vastly superior to any of its neighbors, and it always has been.  Its greatest threat is that the Arabs will be smarter than their technology and weapons, not that brute force will somehow overwhelm the Israeli military machine.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2008, 11:58:51 AM »
Let us not ignore what militarism does to Israel's society.

The miilitary threat is used to excuse spending on a monstrous bloated military bureaucracy - only 25% of the Defense budget is spent or training troops, arming them, or doing stuff that 'augments the national defense'. Most of those drafted are not needed for the service, but the excuse of the permanent national emergency is used to keep them there.

Of course, military discipline, values, obeying orders, etc, makes good soldiers - but bad civilians in a liberal democracy.
Of course, it'd be better if the kids entered the work force earlier or went to college. But who cares?

Nevermind the bloated authority for government in every other sphere, or the erosion of privacy.

If we can have peace with our neighbors, a lot of that can go away.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

macpherson

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2008, 10:14:09 PM »
MicroBalrog,

How does having military discipline and values create bad civilians, in any society?  Would less discipline and training make Israel more prepared for potential attacks?  It might make for a stronger economy but what use is an economy if the country is under the heel of its enemies?  I cannot speak to the issues of military spending, I suspect the same thing occurs in any long-standing military establishment (it certainly has in the US), but that is not reason to disarm either.  It seems to me that Israel is risking much for very little concrete return.  Hezbollah will have a whole range of new places to fire rockets from, Syria will claim it has severed ties with Iran and that it's fighting Hezbollah, on paper, while in reality doing very little of either.  Eventually the IDF will have to move in to stop the rocket attacks, Syria will scream that Israel broke the treaty, the rocket attacks will continue from elsewhere and the UN will criticize Israel and consider sanctions.  And even if all that doesn't happen (it will), you'll still have rockets and bombs coming from Gaza, or the West Bank, or the puppet state that Lebanon is becoming.  I'm not an Israeli, but from my perspective it seems clear that you can give and give and give and you'll still have enemies who want to drive you into the sea.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2008, 11:45:12 PM »
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How does having military discipline and values create bad civilians, in any society?

In a modern 'open society', your success hinges on how well you do  learn, study, achieve, and you may one day end up in a job where you work less hours for more pay. Each man in modern society in an individual.

A conscript military operates on the reverse principle. Work harder, and the army transfers you to harder duty, with (still) miniscule pay. Pretend to have a health issue, or make problems for your commander, and (after some prison time, say two weeks) you will be remanded to easier duty, or 'thrown out' of the service.

You are, of course, not an individual in the army, and they do expect obedience. A draftee army operates on the principle of 'do stuff or I punish you', as opposed to capitalism's 'do stuff and be rewarded'.

Of course, in the REAL Israeli Army, what really happen is that it's far more important to make sure you're not responsible for a failure rather than to ensure success  so you have people who don't really care if their work is done well, who show up late, who are overall lazy, rude bums.

And then they go into the public service.

A conscript army, especially one on the IDF model, is a miniature exercise in socialism.

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  It might make for a stronger economy but what use is an economy if the country is under the heel of its enemies? 

I believe you skipped my point. A huge army made sense when we were surrounded by enemies on all sides, and expecting a joint military invasion by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and every other naiton in the region all at once at any moment. That's no longer the case. The key enemy of Israel are terrorists, against whom a giant army doesn't help. There's just no longer a point of maintaining a state of emergency.

Furher, a long-term state of emergency CANNOT be maintained.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2011, 06:08:46 AM »
The time for waiving the fist to demand everything is over for Israel; A better alternative is to seek democracy and personal freedoms on both sides of the Golan Heights-if the people living in the Golan and in both countries had more of a say in this, it probably would've been settled long ago.

I am rehashing this thread for the obvious reason:

This is now becoming the most prophetic post De Selby had ever made.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

De Selby

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2011, 07:55:48 AM »
It'll be interesting to see how Arab democracy plays out.  The attempts at counter-revolution are, I think, the most poisonous element currently being faced. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Doggy Daddy

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2011, 04:15:57 PM »
Drat!

I read the title as: "Walmart warns of syrup confections."

DD
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 10:02:32 PM by Doggy Daddy »
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RevDisk

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2011, 01:07:22 AM »
It'll be interesting to see how Arab democracy plays out.  The attempts at counter-revolution are, I think, the most poisonous element currently being faced. 

Na, most poisonous element is whether the average person stands up, or just stays quiet.  Contrary to some uh, impressions here, most folks in any country on the planet are decent enough folks that honestly don't care about killing anyone or grand national/racial/ethnic campaigns.  They want to earn enough money to be comfy and to more or less be left alone.  All good things.  Unfortunately, it gives people that DO really care about a particular thing a real edge, and a disproportional voice. 

I've been told by Arabs that it's kinda an Arab cultural thing to keep one's head down and mouth shut about "political matters", and just go with whichever way the wind is blowing.  I don't know how accurate that is.  I honestly don't, but it makes some level of sense.  Hopefully, the average joe takes a look at the nationalistic folks AND the religious crazies, and says "Nuts" to both.
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De Selby

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2011, 03:11:54 AM »
Inaction by the public doesn't seem to be a problem here.  What I meant by counterrevolution being a problem was that anti-protest efforts and stances could lead to further poisoning of the well for Israeli/Arab relations.  Any democracies that result from this will be extremely hostile to neighbours they view as counterrevolutionaries. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."