Author Topic: "10 years"  (Read 6542 times)

Headless Thompson Gunner

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"10 years"
« on: July 24, 2008, 06:32:54 PM »
I swear, if I hear another greenie politician blathering about "10 years" I'm gonna puke.  Is that the only phrase they know?

On the one hand, guys like Algore assure us that we have to convert our entire frimping national infrastructure to run on alternative energies within 10 years.  Or Else.

On the other hand, guys like Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi assure us that it would take at least 10 years to build a few measly new oil wells and refineries.  It's pointless, they say, because it'd take too long.

Come again?  Shouldn't they have, you know, gotten their stories straight about how much we can accomplish in "10 years"?

And then there's T Boone Pickins.  He has A Plan to switch the nation over to wind and natural gas.  Naturally, this is a 10 Year Plan.  Any similarity to Soviet-style 10 year plans is, I'm sure, a complete coincidence. 

This Pickins scheme is pure genius, though.  Pickins is an Oil Man facing the prospects of rapidly diminishing returns on oil claims that are running dry.  So he comes up with this ingenious plan to keep raking in the dough save the country from the evils of oil.  He uses his riches to convince the peasants that the country is in for big trouble unless we adopt The 10 Year Plan.  The peasants then convince their representatives in Washington to buy into this 10 Year Plan.  Next thing you know, the tax payers benevolent federal government spending bajillions of dollars on all of this new wind and gas energy crap.  The fact that Mr. Pickins has positioned himself to be the nation's chief purveyor of wind and gas energy crap is, I'm sure, just one more complete coincidence.

Man, don't you wish you could come up with a con that good?  I certainly do.  Oh well, at least I can watch and marvel.

De Selby

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2008, 06:49:31 PM »
Quote
This Pickins scheme is pure genius, though.  Pickins is an Oil Man facing the prospects of rapidly diminishing returns on oil claims that are running dry.  So he comes up with this ingenious plan to keep raking in the dough save the country from the evils of oil.  He uses his riches to convince the peasants that the country is in for big trouble unless we adopt The 10 Year Plan. 

Right, because only conservationists and greenies use their money to convince the public of their views...the multinational oil companies would never do that, just straight truth is good enough for them.

Why is it, btw, that you can so easily see a scheme by Pickens to rob us all, but when folks propose that the oil giants might be doing just that, it's just because they want to see a conspiracy and can't understand the beauty of the marketplace?

Conservation and alternative energy programs are a solid idea-it's silly in the extreme to oppose them just because Al Gore backs them and an oil billionaire now has his own alternative energy plan.  This kind of reflexive "I'm gonna burn every drop I can my hands on, greenpeace be damned" mentality reminds me of a quote I read attributed to Chairman Mao:  "Whatever the enemy opposes we will support, and whatever the enemy supports we will oppose." 

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MechAg94

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2008, 07:04:40 PM »
There is a big difference between supporting conservation and alternative energy and supporting a wholesale change of our entire energy infrastructure in a very short amount of time by government mandate.


I agree on the "10 years" for drilling oil comment.  If they put the right incentives in the leases, oil would be in production a whole lot sooner.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2008, 07:15:47 PM »
Quote
This Pickins scheme is pure genius, though.  Pickins is an Oil Man facing the prospects of rapidly diminishing returns on oil claims that are running dry.  So he comes up with this ingenious plan to keep raking in the dough save the country from the evils of oil.  He uses his riches to convince the peasants that the country is in for big trouble unless we adopt The 10 Year Plan. 

Right, because only conservationists and greenies use their money to convince the public of their views...the multinational oil companies would never do that, just straight truth is good enough for them.

Why is it, btw, that you can so easily see a scheme by Pickens to rob us all, but when folks propose that the oil giants might be doing just that, it's just because they want to see a conspiracy and can't understand the beauty of the marketplace?

Conservation and alternative energy programs are a solid idea-it's silly in the extreme to oppose them just because Al Gore backs them and an oil billionaire now has his own alternative energy plan.  This kind of reflexive "I'm gonna burn every drop I can my hands on, greenpeace be damned" mentality reminds me of a quote I read attributed to Chairman Mao:  "Whatever the enemy opposes we will support, and whatever the enemy supports we will oppose." 


Heh.  Allow me to turn your argument back on the greenies.  Ahem...

[smarmy shootinstudent voice]As we all know, only Eeeevil Big Oil would use their money to convince the public of their views, the beneficent environmentalists and their High Priest Algore would never do that.[/shootinstudent voice] 

So, what was your point, again?

I don't have a problem with oil companies, or greenie agitators, or private billionares, or anyone else trying to push their message or make a buck.  This is America, you're free to speak as you will and to profit as you will.  That said, I'll judge everyone on their merits. 

Right now, the only the message that has any merit is that of the mainstream energy providers.  Big oil doesn't have to speak in terms of "10 years", they speak in terms of gallons in my gas tanks today. They're providing real energy to real people to use right now.  All the rest of 'em, including you and your Mao quotes, amount to nothing but hot air and vacuous prophecies.

None of this lessens the fact that they all simultaneously hit upon "10 years" as the propaganda phrase du jour.  What's up with that?  Why not 5 years, or 15, "sometime soon"?  Why not 12 years for Algore and 8 years for Pickins?  C'mon fellas, give us some variety and creativity when you insult our intelligence.

De Selby

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2008, 07:37:08 PM »

Right now, only the only the message that has any merit is that of the mainstream energy providers.  They speak in terms of gallons in my gas tanks, kilowath-hours in my home.  They're providing real energy to real people to use right now.  They're the only ones in this whole mess who are actually doing any good for the country.  All the rest of 'em, including you and your Mao quotes, amount to nothing but hot air.

None of this lessens the fact that they all hit upon "10 years" as the propaganda phrase du jour.  What's up with that?

I guess it's just coincidence that their "message" has led to skyrocketing oil prices, and all other basic prices following suit.

But hey, T. Boone Pickins does look like an evil genius, more so than an anonymous board of directors...so feel free to try and sell us all on the notion that his plan to wean us off this product that suddenly skyrocketed in price is a bad one.

The way I see it, it's pretty simple:

The wind and solar crowd: Invest in new technology so that we have a more steady, predictable supply of energy.

Oil crowd:  We promise you that oil prices will be stable in the future, even though you're paying 4 dollars now for the exact same product you were paying 99 cents for not too long ago.  We plan to accomplish this by.....doing exactly what we have been doing.

Sorry, but the evidence is pretty clear to most that depending on oil to the extent that we do is bad policy...and the prices prove it.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2008, 07:49:41 PM »
Come again?  Big oil's message is to allow them to drill for more oil.  That message has fallen on deaf ears in Washington.  Tell me again how that indicates that Big Oil's message is wrong?

Big Oil's message is right.  If you'd been paying attention these last two weeks, you would have seen it in action.  George W Bush removed a meaningless restriction on offshore drilling, and as a direct consequence, crude oil prices dropped 15% in just a few days.  Gas prices are already down 35 cents here.  Imagine what would happen if Washington really heard the message and actually made it legal to drill for oil!

I sorta admire Pickins.  Aside from pulling a true Robber Baron scheme, he's at last willing to put some of his money where his mouth is.  He's actually funding a wind farm in Texas.  If it works, I'll be happy to buy energy from him, assuming his prices are copmpetitive. 

It's the snake-oil salesmanship that irks me.  Pickins doesn't need to buy a $58 million dollar ad campaign invoking national calamity to build his wind farm.  Algore makes his living selling a "10 years" myth.  Most wind ans solar people are empty suits hawking empty "10 years" promises.  How does that help anyone?

Give me substance!  Give me gas in my tank, amps through my breaker box.  Give me refineries and wells and real meatspace windfarms that can turn a real electric meters.  Cut the crap with the empty promises and "10 years" propaganda.

De Selby

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2008, 10:04:28 PM »
Come again?  Big oil's message is to allow them to drill for more oil.  That message has fallen on deaf ears in Washington.  Tell me again how that indicates that Big Oil's message is wrong?

Big Oil's message is right.  If you'd been paying attention these last two weeks, you would have seen it in action.  George W Bush removed a meaningless restriction on offshore drilling, and as a direct consequence, crude oil prices dropped 15% in just a few days.  Gas prices are already down 35 cents here.  Imagine what would happen if Washington really heard the message and actually made it legal to drill for oil!

Of course big oil would never manipulate prices or cause you to ignore the fact that big oil isn't operating at the capacity it already has to produce.  Because that would require big oil being snake oil salesmen just like Pickens.

Your whole view on this subject would be a lot more obvious if you just put "The multinational oil companies claim" before every paragraph.  Then the interest is clear, and it becomes all the more striking that you scramble to point out the bias in guys like Pickins, but scramble with equal vigour to disclaim any scheme when it comes to big oil's claims.

The problem with your wholesale acceptance of big oil's theories is this:

1. It requires you to believe that big oil has far less political clout than environmentalists (who has more dollars, and how do politics work?)

2. It requires you to believe that big oil will always be motivated to supply so that the price remains low, even though history has proven conclusively that big oil both will not, and cannot, always regulate the price of oil.

3.  It also requires you to believe all of big oil's claims about the future of oil as an energy source....on the word of the people who sell most of the oil...that it's nonsensical to search for an alternative.

In sum, you have to consider not only the part that big oil does control (where it has every motive to charge you more money for oil, not less), and the part it does not control (world supply-it can't guarantee that world supply will be stable, no matter how much drilling you want to do here, and thus, it cannot guarantee a stable pricing scheme.)

It's completely irrational to reject all efforts at conservation and developing alternatives to supplement oil on the grounds that the oil companies told you it wouldn't be necessary.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

RaspberrySurprise

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2008, 12:04:17 AM »
Didn't Stalin at least keep to a five year plan?
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FTA84

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2008, 05:43:16 AM »
I think that many of us are still reeling from the 'bio-fuel' and 'plug-in cars'.  The former being a massively inefficent process, which can never release us from gas, but make us pay $4/gal for milk.  It is simply a transfer of cost of a gallon of gas.  The latter being a transfer of pollution from oil burning cars to oil/coal burning factories (since we can't get anyone to help us go nuclear).

Forgive me if I have my doubts about another feel good scheme.  For me, I'd love it if we could go on renewable resources.  I wish every town had giant waterfall to produce hydroelectric power.  I also believe big oil is full of it, something I realized right after Katrina.  The big oil companies obviously had a disruption in supply, but found out Americans were willilng to pay $3+ for gas without denting consumption.  So they never had any incentive to take the price down, that is why they have been making money hand over fist.  At the very least, this is the part of the free market economy and I think at $4.50/gal we have found a breaking point.  More people are finally starting to bike to work and throw away those SUVs.

And I am sure T. Boone Pickinsmypocket is in this whole thing just to make a dime.  It is America, that is how it is supposed to work.  Got a good idea that can help everyone?  Sell it to them and make a ton of money.

I simply hate the idea of T. Boone Pickinsmytaxdollar spending money on a large ad campaign to fleece the government on his idea.  Once the government gets involved in funding, you can be sure everything will be done inefficently and as costly as possible (see Haliburton).  Perhaps T. Boone Pickins has realized that oil is still simply not expensive enough for his new investments to be profitable.

longeyes

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2008, 06:49:30 AM »
We may have a long-term goal of getting beyond fossil fuels, but there is that sticky next 25 years or so, maybe 50, where we are going to have to use not only oil but a lot of other things that are on the environmentalists' "holy anathema" list.  We are in no position to just go cold turkey on petroleum and everyone knows that who has not lost his senses.  Given the global demand for energy today we need to use everything we can to the best of our ability.

If we can "wait" for alternative energy schemes to mature, we can damn well wait for new oil wells, new refineries, and new nuclear power plants.

This is not about rational solutions to real problems, it is about a re-medievalization of the West, or an attempt to do that.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2008, 07:24:59 AM »
Another thing...

Why is it that the greenie "10 year" phrase is always code for "no oil"?  Algore's 10 year apocalypse really means "stop using oil right effing now".  Nancy and Harry's 10 years before ANWR is usable means no new oil from Alaska.  Pickins' plan presumes that we shouldn't use oil anymore.

If Pickins was so sure of his plan, then why does he insist the country drop oil?  Why doesn't he simply compete against oil in the marketplace, and let the superiority of his plan prevail?

If Harry and Nancy are so certain that ANWR is a waist of time and money, then why not release the ban?  If it really is a waist of time and money, then only the foolish oil producers would try, and they'd suffer the consequences of their foolish investments.Ether way, it's no skin off Nancy's and Harry's backs.

HankB

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2008, 03:33:41 PM »
WHY 10 YEARS?

It's the ideal time span - short enough to scare the crap out of people, but long enough for them to forget about your bogus predictions when they fail to materialize.

(Note to GOP: Make commercial of Billy Jeff using his VETO on ANWR drilling in 1995, with his ". . . we won't have the oil for 10 years" lament. Include similar quotes from every democRAT you can find footage of.)

As for T. Boone Pickens . . . is it true he refuses to put windmills on HIS ranch because they're ugly?
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longeyes

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2008, 04:00:43 PM »
Most of us here accept an evolution toward sustainable energy options, over a reasonable time-frame and with most of the heavy lifting being done by the free market.

What we don't accept is being preached to by hypocrites, opportunists, and green fascists, people who hate both American and, it often seems, humanity itself, whether it's by His Hugeness Al Gore or, even worse, a nitwit like Nancy Pelosi.
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Manedwolf

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2008, 06:14:33 PM »
As for T. Boone Pickens . . . is it true he refuses to put windmills on HIS ranch because they're ugly?

The Kennedys fought windmills off the always-extreme-wind Cape because it'd ruin their view. Leftists have no problem with their hypocrisy.

roo_ster

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2008, 06:27:03 PM »
Come again?  Big oil's message is to allow them to drill for more oil.  That message has fallen on deaf ears in Washington.  Tell me again how that indicates that Big Oil's message is wrong?

Big Oil's message is right.  If you'd been paying attention these last two weeks, you would have seen it in action.  George W Bush removed a meaningless restriction on offshore drilling, and as a direct consequence, crude oil prices dropped 15% in just a few days.  Gas prices are already down 35 cents here.  Imagine what would happen if Washington really heard the message and actually made it legal to drill for oil!

Of course big oil would never manipulate prices or cause you to ignore the fact that big oil isn't operating at the capacity it already has to produce.  Because that would require big oil being snake oil salesmen just like Pickens.

Your whole view on this subject would be a lot more obvious if you just put "The multinational oil companies claim" before every paragraph.  Then the interest is clear, and it becomes all the more striking that you scramble to point out the bias in guys like Pickins, but scramble with equal vigour to disclaim any scheme when it comes to big oil's claims.

The problem with your wholesale acceptance of big oil's theories is this:

1. It requires you to believe that big oil has far less political clout than environmentalists (who has more dollars, and how do politics work?)

2. It requires you to believe that big oil will always be motivated to supply so that the price remains low, even though history has proven conclusively that big oil both will not, and cannot, always regulate the price of oil.

3.  It also requires you to believe all of big oil's claims about the future of oil as an energy source....on the word of the people who sell most of the oil...that it's nonsensical to search for an alternative.

In sum, you have to consider not only the part that big oil does control (where it has every motive to charge you more money for oil, not less), and the part it does not control (world supply-it can't guarantee that world supply will be stable, no matter how much drilling you want to do here, and thus, it cannot guarantee a stable pricing scheme.)

It's completely irrational to reject all efforts at conservation and developing alternatives to supplement oil on the grounds that the oil companies told you it wouldn't be necessary.


Big oil, big oil, big oil...

Sheesh, your post is about as ignorant of oil and how it gets yanked outta the ground here in the 'States as is possible.  At best, you are missing half the equation: little oil.

Ever since oil started to rise in price, a bunch of little oil & oil-related companies have either beefed up, sprung up, or otherwise increased optempo.

These guys are not some sort of sinister cartel of top-hatted caricatures.  Some are old oil men like my FIL who got kicked in the jimmy (economically) in the 1980s oil bust, but see an opportunity to make money again, here in the 'States, exploiting existing fields with new tech and hunting down new fields.

The little oil industry is humming.  For instance, my family just spent the weekend in Nacadoches, Texas and the surrounding area.  The little towns that are the geographical/petroleum hot spots have not a hotel room to be had, as the land men, drillers, and other little oil businesses have them all booked.  You have to stay in the larger towns a ways out like Nacadoches, Tyler, Shreveport, etc. in order to find a room...at twice or triple the usual rate, I might add (I write after paying $103+taxes for one night in Naca-freakin-Doches, Texas in July).  Some of the land men at the hotel have been staying there and hitting the courthouses since December.

There is so much stinking work to be had, even my worthless BIL (I have several, one of which is like useless accessories reference deleted) can get a job.  If you can find your way around a courthouse, can run MS Office, and are moderately motivated, you, too, can make some serious effing money getting mineral rights all lined up.

None of these guys get the "Big Oil Talking Points and Price Manipulation Memo," you seem to think exists.  They are just reacting to the market and see an opportunity to make money.  The fact that they will increase the supply that will eventually correct the current oil bubble is the reality that your conspiracy theory can not account for.

[Cleaned up for language on this very public forum...]
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Gewehr98

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2008, 08:50:11 AM »
I edited some stuff.

I left the "ignorant" thing in, probably against my better judgement.

We will play nice in this public thread, otherwise it goes bye-bye.

Maybe little oil will become relevant in the future, and take over big oil's market share someday. Maybe it won't.

We'll see.  Me, I'm still doing the solar energy/biofuel thing, and once I'm up and around again and given a clean bill of health, I'll continue my endeavours. 

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coppertales

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2008, 09:04:21 AM »
FOLLOW THE MONEY.....if there was money in alternative energy, it would have been done years ago.

Wind and solar are not reliable forms of energy.  Who knows when the wind will blow or the sky not be cloudy.  Wind and solar are a good source of "peak power", to supplement the regular power grid when the need arises, that is, if the wind is blowing or the sun shining.

10 years?  I will probably be dead in 10 years so I don't give a fig......chris3

De Selby

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2008, 10:46:08 AM »


We'll see.  Me, I'm still doing the solar energy/biofuel thing, and once I'm up and around again and given a clean bill of health, I'll continue my endeavours. 



Hope the recovery is speedy and complete.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Gewehr98

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2008, 03:17:47 PM »
We'll see.

I'm keeping fingers crossed that te doctors say they got all of it when they went in, and that I'm cancer-free.  Wink

(I have a strong will to live and tee off non-conservationists...)   grin
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RocketMan

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Re: "10 years"
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2008, 07:08:58 PM »
Dang, Gewehr98. Didn't know you were that sick. Sorry to hear that. Get well, man!
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