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Author Topic: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats  (Read 18512 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2008, 08:11:20 AM »

I'm sure Obama believes we have too many aircraft carriers, too many Trident submarines, too many Tomahawk cruise missiles, too many ABMs, too many everything except U.S. Marines doing construction work that foreigners ought to be doing for themselves.

You mean Israel wouldn't like to have a few aircraft carriers?  Please.



What the hell would Israel use a carrier for?

Carriers are for nations that need to project power all over the world. Russia. Britain. France. America. Not Israel.

[Mind, Thailand has a carrier. But it's tiny and worthless and is mostly there for the pride factor]
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Manedwolf

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2008, 08:16:31 AM »

Brazil has a carrier as well.



With Chavez so close, I don't blame them.

MicroBalrog

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2008, 08:33:38 AM »

Brazil has a carrier as well.



With Chavez so close, I don't blame them.

That's shiny.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Mike Irwin

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2008, 08:50:55 AM »

Funny, you must never have heard of the Yom Kippur War..

Israel's vaunted Air Force was savaged in a way that made its leaders scratch their heads and wet their pants. The losses in the Isralie armored forces were even worse.

Israeli ground forces were also savaged in a way never before thought possible by the Israeli high command. "WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU'VE LOST NEARLY 75% OF YOUR TANK FORCE TO EGYPTIAN FORCES??? WHAT DO YOU MEAN WE'VE LOST 30 JET AIRCRAFT IN LESS THAN 24 HOURS??? WHAT DO YOU MEAN SYRIAN COMMANDOS HAVE TAKEN MT. HEMRON??? WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE EGYPTIANS ARE ACROSS THE SUEZ AND HAVE SEIZED THE BORDER FORTIFICATIONS???"

The previous three conflicts had left a lot of people with a serious case of "Our balls are so big we can't get them in our pants."

Isralie leaders knew of the massing of Syrian and Egyptian troops, and chose to do nothing, expecting that if the Arab forces did attack that the IDF would simply deploy and destroy them as it had in years past.

They made the mistake of believing their own cult of invincibility.

And that led to that inevitable call...

Hi, Dickie Poo? This is Golda. Yeah, Golda Mier. Yeah, we seem to have made a teeny, tiny miscalculation, and those pesky Arabs are giving us some trouble. Yeah, yeah, I know, we've kicked them all over the place before. What do we need? Oh, nothing much... just tanks. LOTS of tanks. Artillery. Aircraft....

Yeah, nothing much.

Goldie? This is Henry. Dickie just gave me the phone because he wants to change the tape in his tape deck. The President has agreed - and let me repeat this formally - that all your aircraft and tank losses will be replaced."

Oh well, it's a new and more wonderful world. Maybe the Isralies have too many fighter jets and tanks. After all, it's just a bunch of Arabs you're facing, right?   :rolleyes:

Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2008, 08:53:29 AM »

all that happened before he was born and before the internet. it has no meaning
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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mtnbkr

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2008, 09:06:32 AM »

all that happened before he was born and before the internet. it has no meaning

ROTFLMAO!

Wikipedia has no answer, eh? :D

Chris

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2008, 09:09:14 AM »

apparently no ones provided a white paper either. it appears not knowing own history is not a usa phenomenom
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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nobody's_hero

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2008, 09:28:39 AM »

GA has laws which prohibit acceptance of money for votes.

As to the stalled infrastructure, that doesn't make much sense, either. Wait to build up the roads in a good economy, when people actually have reasons to ship goods over them.  =(

roo_ster

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2008, 11:42:23 AM »

Yeah, I was thinking of the YKW, too, during this thread.

Israel may have 2X the hardware of Syria, but they have had a difficult time putting the material to good use the last few conventional warfare outings. (YKW, Lebanon I, Lebanon II). OTOH, their use of things like Hellfire missiles to do in terrorist leaders has been outstanding.

A floating airfield that changes position, so cheap ballistic missiles can't hit it and that is perpetually out of arty & mortar fire range has its advantages.  Also allows for a little "standoff range" for a country that has no standoff.
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roo_ster

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41magsnub

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2008, 12:31:44 PM »

Holy thread drift batman...

Running with the drift though... for Israel to have a carrier they would also need to seriously beef up the rest of their navy.  As far as I can tell they have little or no ASW capability nor any sort of naval area air defense capability.  It sure would suck to have this shiny new aircraft carrier and some old Egyptian Romeo class sub from the 50's torpedoed it.  For air defense if something got past the fighter screen the closest thing they have an AAW ship is the Sa'ar V corvettes that have a decent but very short range SAM system.

Or even more likely, Iran decides to go for a propaganda victory and sneaks one of their Kilo class boats into the med and sinks the carrier.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 12:43:52 PM by 41magsnub »

roo_ster

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2008, 12:59:52 PM »

Holy thread drift batman...

Running with the drift though... for Israel to have a carrier they would also need to seriously beef up the rest of their navy.  As far as I can tell they have little or no ASW capability nor any sort of naval area air defense capability.  It sure would suck to have this shiny new aircraft carrier and some old Egyptian Romeo class sub from the 50's torpedoed it.  For air defense if something got past the fighter screen the closest thing they have an AAW ship is the Sa'ar V corvettes that have a decent but very short range SAM system.

Or even more likely, Iran decides to go for a propaganda victory and sneaks one of their Kilo class boats into the med and sinks the carrier.

True.

But, compared to the cost of even pocket carriers like the UK's, ASW frigates are pretty cheap.  If you can swing the carrier, you can swing its escorts.  And ASW frigates are about the cheapest frigates around.  Toss in the USMC AV-8 Harriers when they are replaced by the F35, for good measure.

Add few Aegis frigates and you have mobile, standoff theater missile defense for Israel, in addition to their anti-aircraft capabilities.

I'd go for it, as long as the tamper-resistant measures (on the software & some hardware) are stout enough.  Don't want it sold to the Chinese or whomever the Israeli intel types like to sell US tech & secrets to.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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seeker_two

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2008, 01:16:08 PM »

Quote
U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats

Coming from Barney Frank, that sentence makes me nervous in many, many ways....  :O
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

grampster

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2008, 01:38:26 PM »

I tell you what I'd really like to see the .fedgov do.  Cut every present program it now has on the books by 10-15% except for military and port and border security.  Then  push for a national project constructing elevated, high speed, electric powered trains using the interestate rights of way.  Upgrade feeder lines and terminals.  Build 48 nuclear power plants to gen them all up. Divide the nation up into regions for bid by private contractors.  Make it a capital offense (summary death penalty by hanging after a 30 day appeal) for the senior officers of any bidder company to cook the books or use crappy material.  Pay for the project by issuing corporate bonds to We The Serfs that pay a reasonable return, say 6%.  A project of that scope would create 100% able bodied employment, move the population around, and end welfare for many years as well as secure a safe investment for those willing to get involved.
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Manedwolf

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2008, 01:40:51 PM »

Then  push for a national project constructing elevated, high speed, electric powered trains using the interestate rights of way.

Yay. Amtrak money suck X10000000. :P

You are aware that NO passenger rail is profitable and all are massive toilet-flushes of subsidized funds, right?

That would become the porkbarrel to end all porkbarrel, and end up with half-constructed abandoned tracks and a lot of rich people walking away with big grins.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 01:45:48 PM by Manedwolf »

agricola

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2008, 04:06:19 PM »

True.

But, compared to the cost of even pocket carriers like the UK's, ASW frigates are pretty cheap.  If you can swing the carrier, you can swing its escorts.  And ASW frigates are about the cheapest frigates around.  Toss in the USMC AV-8 Harriers when they are replaced by the F35, for good measure.

Add few Aegis frigates and you have mobile, standoff theater missile defense for Israel, in addition to their anti-aircraft capabilities.

I'd go for it, as long as the tamper-resistant measures (on the software & some hardware) are stout enough.  Don't want it sold to the Chinese or whomever the Israeli intel types like to sell US tech & secrets to.

What would the point of all that be?  Better to get an equivalent radar to Aegis and put four or five covering all of Israel - which they probably / certainly have already. 

As for a field thats able to move, I think the IDF prefers to have things the way they are - one imagines nothing concentrates the mind like being the first and last line of defence.
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roo_ster

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2008, 04:59:50 PM »

First off, the point is an exercise in the utility of carriers.  The practicality of paying for all that hardware is not evident.

Second, when Israel's opponents get missiles accurate enough to actually target something the size of an airfield, I suspect airfields will be the prime target.  Enough missiles lobbed means buh-bye airfields and sayonara air cover, missile defense or no missile defense.  See China vs Taiwan on that equation.

With an aircraft carrier, they would have a chance to respond once the airfields are a charred ruin.

Same thing with static radar facilities: if it is based in one spot on land, it is vulnerable to short-ranged but moderately acurate missiles and suicide bombers.





Regards,

roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2008, 08:31:35 PM »

Quote
all that happened before he was born and before the internet. it has no meaning

I submitted an off-curriculum school assignment on the Yom-Kippur war when I was about 17. I read Kissinger's book in the process, and a few others.

But previously Irwin mentioned American air power, which implies something completely different from an airlift of goods, namely American planes actively shooting at the Arabs or whoever to help us. His insistence on US carriers also lead me to that conclusion. That has not occured in Yom-Kippur.

Further, every single analysis of what happened at Yom-Kippur, ascribes the fault squarely to an error of AMAN for not predicting a coming attack (everybody knew one was coming, but AMAN assured everybody it wasn't soon).

More importantly, it is in fact a new and wonderful world. Out of the three main Arab combatants of the Yom-Kippur war, one is now at peace with Israel (and their police actually fight Hamas on a semi-regular basis), one is in no shape to fight anyone (Iraq), and one is in terrible economic shape and actually has LESS troops than they had back then.

Yet more importantly, US monetary aid to ISrael is actually detrimental to both countries - to Israel, because it protects wastefulness in its military structure far greater than the amount of goods bought by the aid money ($4 to each $1 given by America), and screws over the Israeli defense industry.

Finally, the US military's purpose is to defend... wait for it, I'm going to name the country... AMERICA.

Not Israel.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 06:52:53 AM by MicroBalrog »
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Mike Irwin

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2008, 05:51:18 AM »

No, American combat aircraft did not take part in the Yom Kippur war. I never said they did.

However, American aircraft carriers (Roosevelt and Independence and the amphibious assault craft Guadalcanal)  moved into the region in large part to thwart saber rattling by the Soviet Union, which demanded that: A) the United States reign in Israel, B) demanded a US-Soviet "peace keeping" force in the region, and C) threatened to unilaterally send in combat troops if the United States refused A and B.

At the time Israel finally stopped ignoring the cease fire accord and ceased combat operations, around October 26, IIRC, the United States was moving at least two more carriers towards the region.

American carrier assets, as well as very strong statements from the US, forced the Soviet Union to back down on its threat to send combat troops into the Middle East in support of Egypt and Syria.

In essence, it's likely US naval strength prevented a whole new world of hurt from coming down on the already stunned Isralie military.

"one is now at peace with Israel."

Wow! I didn't know that! That means, of course, that since there's PEACE between Israel and Egypt that there will ALWAYS be peace between Israle and Egypt, that absolutely NOTHING will ever change that! Amazing how that works, isn't it? What is ever shall be without end, Amen!


"Finally, the US military's purpose is to defend... wait for it, I'm going to name the country... AMERICA."

On that we actually agree. I've never thought Israle to be: A) particularly worth aiding militarily or monetarily, B) worth the hassle with the Arab states, C) a friend. 

As for the "defending America" bit, I happen to agree with the concept that defense isn't limited to the 200 mile coastal zone around the US continental shelf. Adequate national defense IS a global proposition, more so today than it was in 1973.
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agricola

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2008, 06:28:46 AM »

First off, the point is an exercise in the utility of carriers.  The practicality of paying for all that hardware is not evident.

Second, when Israel's opponents get missiles accurate enough to actually target something the size of an airfield, I suspect airfields will be the prime target.  Enough missiles lobbed means buh-bye airfields and sayonara air cover, missile defense or no missile defense.  See China vs Taiwan on that equation.

With an aircraft carrier, they would have a chance to respond once the airfields are a charred ruin.

Same thing with static radar facilities: if it is based in one spot on land, it is vulnerable to short-ranged but moderately acurate missiles and suicide bombers.

Much the same criticisms can be levelled against the expense and usefulness of a carrier to the Israelis.

For it to be of any use, it would have to be within range of Israel and most of its enemies - both the Eastern Med and the Red Sea are not that big and are extremely busy shipping areas, so that a carrier and its escorts would probably be reasonably easy to locate.  They would probably be vulnerable to both shore-based and small boat based missiles (which most of Israel's enemies have already, as Hezbollah showed in 2006) as well as mines, and suicide craft.  This, together with the lack of any real geopolitical need for one, is why they do not have one.

Besides, if the Israelis ever got to the stage where they had no air power I think we all realise that what their response would be.
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Manedwolf

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2008, 06:31:44 AM »

Any of the surrounding nations being at "peace" with Israel are using Will Rogers' definition of diplomacy.

That it's the art of saying "nice doggie" until you can find a rock.

MicroBalrog

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2008, 09:17:06 AM »

Quote
that since there's PEACE between Israel and Egypt that there will ALWAYS be peace between Israle and Egypt, tha

So, on your argument, France should remain perennially braced for a German invasion of Alsace-Lorrain.

Quote
On that we actually agree. I've never thought Israle to be: A) particularly worth aiding militarily or monetarily, B) worth the hassle with the Arab states, C) a friend.

We are in agreement. That, and I don't think the current aid system helps any of the countries involved.

Quote
. Adequate national defense IS a global proposition, more so today than it was in 1973.

Let me remind you of your own post on a completely different forum.

The fact America's defenses are not limited to her physical borders does not mean the military budget must perrenially increase, that no warship is unnecessary, and no bomber unneeded.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2008, 09:19:04 AM »

So, on your argument, France should remain perennially braced for a German invasion of Alsace-Lorrain.

yes
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Tallpine

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2008, 09:40:05 AM »

Quote
when Israel's opponents get missiles accurate enough to actually target something the size of an airfield, I suspect airfields will be the prime target.  Enough missiles lobbed means buh-bye airfields and sayonara air cover, missile defense or no missile defense

I would think some STOL jets that could land/TO on roads would be a better investment than a carrier and a fleet of ships to protect it.  :|

(doesn't Finland or somebody have jets parked in old barns ready to take off on a nearby road ??? )
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makattak

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2008, 09:50:36 AM »

Back to the original topic-

When the Dems start handing out the post-halloween "candy", I'm buying another gun.

Somehow, all the Obama supporters assuring me that "He believes in the Second Amendment" doesn't ease my fears.

Here's to a new AR-15 for my wife!
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So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

freedom lover

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Re: U.S. Rep. Barney Frank envisions post-election stimulus from Democrats
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2008, 09:57:39 AM »

Quote
I would think some STOL jets that could land/TO on roads would be a better investment than a carrier and a fleet of ships to protect it.

The Swedes have a plane like that. The Saab Gripen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Gripen#Expeditionary_capabilities

STOL video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJQKCUjcslM&feature=related

I think a few of those and a ship with a some Harriers would a great help in a war.

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