Dr. Dan's prescription

[...has left the building.]

But I would also add that the air of superiority is frequently used when discussing things on both forums.

Interestingly, the place *I* pick up on this is the "which 9mm?" or "which .45?" threads...

Fig,

I think that is just a function of what we know or what we watch out for. Women THR members may feel the tone of misogyny, I might feel the tone of racism. I agree there are many gun snobs about but that isn't as harmful to our cause as racism.

[Guest]

I think there's a lot of truth to what you're saying, but consider this: I also see the opposite prejudices.

I see also out there that there is something wrong with being a hick, or that one should have an advanced degree, speak a foreign language or two, and have pilot's license, or you don't properly represent gun owners and people might think we're all dangerous.

Quite honestly, what's wrong with growing up on a farm, or working in a factory, or driving an old pickup truck and shooting 'chucks out the window (providing its legal in your state and/or you're on good terms with the local officials. ) If you can't spell, for Pete's sakes, don't even think about contacting your legislators, because goodness knows, they're here to represent those with good grammar skills.

More on topic:

I do see racism here, some subtle, some not always quite so much (some of the New Orleans stuff I've seen all over just makes me ill..not just the looting as the assumption that everyone caught in that was a big old lazy black welfare recipient.) I see it maybe in places other people, especially White Men (TM) might not see it, because it or something similar affects me. I'm much more sensitive to things that people say, or that I myself sometimes say, than a lot of people. But that's the biggest reason. Because in some ways it does affect me.

I'm pretty vocal about women's issues (just in case ya'll missed that) but not quite so much about race or gay rights or what-have-you, because women's issues affect me, directly, immediately. Same goes with the other things. All that can be done is to point it out. Some people will be pissed off, some will be annoyed and some will set back and think about something they may never have considered before. What it really takes is some one directly affected by whatever prejudice it is to point out the ways the assumptions being made are bullshit.

[Guest]

I guess I'd also say that the best way to end all the prejudices is just what we do here..we don't expect hte government to create a program for anyone..if someone says something stupid, we point it out and move on. We confront the problem directly, without expecting someone to do it for us.

[grampster]

Fig,

I'm offended that you didn't mention my hand carved, dadoed, tongue and groove, peg board shotty case in 48th parallel maple.  Duuude.

[grampster]

On topic:  What I see here as well as THR, TAC and TFL, is a cross section of Americans that are not all the same breed of cat.  Frankly, our country, and the world for that matter, is quite diverse.  I actually see a value in diversity until it becomes a phrase that is vomited up in the name of PC.  

How does one make decisions about one's feelings, realities etc that make up one's character without that platter of opinion.  I submit it is impossible without the ying and yang of various opinions, even if some of them are distasteful.  We don't have to tolerate or accept some opinion or behavior.  We can, hopefully gently, point out the error when it occurs.

Sometimes that doesn't work as evidenced by the fact that Mankinds history is replete with selfish savagery.

Once we all start thinking alike, then maybe we should all put on grey matching clothes with a sound reproducing device around our necks broadcasting the "official" line while smiling politely at each other while we munch our Soylent Green.

My father told me in the 60's that Americans were losing their sense of humor.  By that he did not mean we laugh at any coarse joke.  What he meant was losing our ability to discern and deal with our differences, to be peaceful, tolerant, to be mildly amused at stupidity, to pull together when it was needed, to seek justice with a good spirit, and to not look for victimhood around every corner.  He was a wise and prescient man, my dad.  I would like to see more people like him, however.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

Fig,

I'm offended that you didn't mention my hand carved, dadoed, tongue and groove, peg board shotty case in 48th parallel maple.  Duuude.

grampster-- LOL! Wish *I* had one of those!!!

[Guest]

I'm supposed to point these things out gently??

Damn..I knew I was missing something!

[grampster]

You missed the word "hopefully" that preceded gently.  

[Guest]

Whew!

[Guest]

Whether or not you guys feel it, I definitely do. After the comment on THR about we should let the Aryan Nation and KKK kill people because that would be a decisive victory against welfare, I don't know how you can not feel a racist vibe.

One comment among 20,000 members and your prepared to label the whole bunch? Does the hypocrisy of the sentiment bother you at all?

[Glock Glockler]

Dan,

Music, objectively defined, is supposed to contain notation, rhythm, melody, and harmony.  Now, I am not an expert on those by any means but one could be completely correct on the assestion that "rap" isn't music.  On that, you'd be better off asking someone other than myself.  When it comes to rap, people are going to make judgements on it based primarily 2 criteria: the degree to which they derive pleasure from listening to it, or to it's cultural value.  The pleasure factor will differ from person to person, so there is no big deal there, but can one make a pretty accurate statement about the cultural value of rap?  I think so.  

For some reason I don't see gangbangers listening to Bach and Vivaldi, I do see them listening to rap and I do see what messages are commonly conveyed via rap and their effects are both obvious and poisonous.  I can completely understand the anger resulting from dealing with a society infected with the cultural acid that rap and ghetto culture produce, and the comments you refer to are nothing more than a result, or outlet for this anger.    

You can't take blood from a stone, and the anger people feel doesnt just fall out of the sky.  I, as a white male, am getting quite tired of knowing that I will be passed over by less qualified minorities even though I may be FAR more skilled than them at a certain task.  I am also getting quite tired of people trying to guilt me for being successful and trying to blame me for all the ills of the world.  I, currently, have the emotional strength to differentiate between individuals and individuals within a certain group but that capacity is finite.  If you keep pushing someone farther they eventually snap and do very bad things to anyone they see as being part of the opposing group.  I think Sandra Bullock's charachter exhibited this on a very low level after she was mugged.  

As far as the actions by those in the movie, perhaps it was that I thought their decisions were just so stupid and out of touch with reality that the became less human to me.  I can understand why Bullock's charachter would suddently empathize with her maid, even though she was incorrect on her reasoning for her empathy.  I cannot understand why anyone would do many of the other actions, but the ways in which the results of those actions were portrayed bothered me more, it seemed as though they were a conclusion without any resolution.  Ok, Matt Dillion's charachter saves the life of the woman he molested, but he was on his way to do it anyway before he knew who she was.  Ok, so he saves her and they make it like he had some big revelation, but what was it?  They just showed him helping his Dad like he was before, what is the conclusion?

The nice cop, perhaps as an act of contrition for his partner's horrible actions, offers a black guy a ride, and then winds up killing him in a completely justified circumstance.  He then goes and burns his car, why?  What was the change that occured, that crap happens?  Perhaps, I don't know because the movie didnt tell us.  

As an analogy, the movie wasnt a bad joke, it just lacked a punchline.

[...has left the building.]

Whether or not you guys feel it, I definitely do. After the comment on THR about we should let the Aryan Nation and KKK kill people because that would be a decisive victory against welfare, I don't know how you can not feel a racist vibe.

One comment among 20,000 members and your prepared to label the whole bunch? Does the hypocrisy of the sentiment bother you at all?

Where did I make any attempt to quantify my feeling? I didn't, so don't do it for me.

[...has left the building.]

Barbara- I would also agree that the opposite prejudices are true. I think that the more people realize that there aren't so many hard lines between people, the better off we will all be.

grampster- Indeed, if there were more people like your Dad around, we'd all be better off.

[...has left the building.]

Dan,

Music, objectively defined, is supposed to contain notation, rhythm, melody, and harmony.  Now, I am not an expert on those by any means but one could be completely correct on the assestion that "rap" isn't music.  On that, you'd be better off asking someone other than myself.  When it comes to rap, people are going to make judgements on it based primarily 2 criteria: the degree to which they derive pleasure from listening to it, or to it's cultural value.  The pleasure factor will differ from person to person, so there is no big deal there, but can one make a pretty accurate statement about the cultural value of rap?  I think so.

I consider music to be any type of sound arranged in a pattern to be rhythmic, melodic, harmonious, etc. Solo drumming is as much music as playing the classical guitar. I don't know if you can really make one assumption about hip hop or rap culture today. Maybe in 1996 you could but now it isn't all so negative or "gangsta".

I, as a white male, am getting quite tired of knowing that I will be passed over by less qualified minorities even though I may be FAR more skilled than them at a certain task.

Has this actually happened to you? Do they have some kind of affirmative action in NH?

I am also getting quite tired of people trying to guilt me for being successful and trying to blame me for all the ills of the world.

Sadly that is frequently other white people...but I know what you mean.

As far as the actions by those in the movie, perhaps it was that I thought their decisions were just so stupid and out of touch with reality that the became less human to me.

That is reasonable but I thought their extremes of action made it more human for me. Simply because their actions are what some of us may feel on a base level but our social mores don't allow us to do.

Ok, Matt Dillion's charachter saves the life of the woman he molested, but he was on his way to do it anyway before he knew who she was.  Ok, so he saves her and they make it like he had some big revelation, but what was it? They just showed him helping his Dad like he was before, what is the conclusion?

The only revelation here was that human beings can be Satan or Jesus all in the same week. We all have both animal lust and compassion in our hearts, that is how I read his character.

The nice cop, perhaps as an act of contrition for his partner's horrible actions, offers a black guy a ride, and then winds up killing him in a completely justified circumstance.  He then goes and burns his car, why?  What was the change that occured, that crap happens?  Perhaps, I don't know because the movie didnt tell us.

He burns his car simply to destroy the evidence. I think the movie was trying to show that it was an unjustified circumstance...the black guy was trying to make a human connection with the statue, to show that they have common ground and he got shot for it. Not because the white cop was evil, but because the white cop simply misunderstood his intentions.

Good discussion BTW.

[Guest]

Whether or not you guys feel it, I definitely do. After the comment on THR about we should let the Aryan Nation and KKK kill people because that would be a decisive victory against welfare, I don't know how you can not feel a racist vibe.

One comment among 20,000 members and your prepared to label the whole bunch? Does the hypocrisy of the sentiment bother you at all?

Where did I make any attempt to quantify my feeling? I didn't, so don't do it for me.

From the very same post originally quoted:

Far too long have we been characterized as a bunch of misogynistic white racists.

[...has left the building.]

One comment among 20,000 members and your prepared to label the whole bunch? Does the hypocrisy of the sentiment bother you at all?

Where did I make any attempt to quantify my feeling? I didn't, so don't do it for me.

From the very same post originally quoted:

Far too long have we been characterized as a bunch of misogynistic white racists.

I still fail to see what point you're trying to make.

[Lo.Com.Denom]

Well, naturaly you're going to get the occasional racist vibe - some people are racists! Like Grampster said, we are a broad cross-section of people, rather than some homogenous mass. Since I've been reading APS and THR, I've been annoyed, delighted, saddened, laughed like a drain, had my preconceptions challenged and learned a whole hell of a lot in the process!
As an Englishman, I've been shocked at some of the overt (no "vibes" about it!) hatred of my country coming from some members, but also my heart has been gladdened by the good sense and wisdom of some of the other members. Just lifes rich tapestry, Daniel. We aren't expected to like every part of it - that's just the way it is.

[SalukiFan]

Well, like others have said THR and APS are a real grab-bag of different types of people.  Unfortunately, there are going to be a few bigots that will trot out their opinions  fortunately, however, there are a greater number of fair-thinking people that will challenge them.  

I understand that the main thing that you are talking about is more of a general lack of understanding towards people who are not white.  I could see that.  Unlike minorities, white people do not have to think about race every day so when topics having to do with race or minority culture pop up, youre likely going to get some half-baked ideas or ignorant statements.  

If you are white, you have to be fairly perceptive to even realize that race is an issue for other people.  If you get pulled over, you dont have to worry if it was because of your race.  If you go to buy a car, you dont have to worry if they are quoting you a higher price than they just gave someone else.  If you go to the store, you can buy Band-Aids that are approximately your skin color.  You dont have to worry that people might assume that you arent qualified for the job you hold because of your race.  This kind of stuff doesnt even generally cross your mind and whats more, you begin to assume that this is how everyone experiences the world.

Then, when someone mentions race, people who havent experienced racism often have a hard time putting themselves in someone elses shoes.  They think to themselves, I dont treat people any differently because of their race - if they are trying to make me feel guilty just because Im white they can go pound sand.  

For minorities, who may just be looking for an acknowledgement that race is still an issue, this kind of defensive posturing comes off looking pretty bigoted.  Also, quite frankly, it is hard to be raised in America as a white person without picking up negative stereotypes about minorities and like it or not, many people repeat bigoted nonsense that they picked up from family, friends or the media without fully realizing what they are saying or how it makes other people feel.  

I think the main thing to remember is that it is important to increase your empathy for the other guy and limit your defensiveness so you can learn from someone else.  Its hard sometimes but you just have to remember that you cant learn everything by deducing it from your own limited experiences and itll do you good to listen to someone outside your own race, ethnic group, religion, and/or gender.  

Thats what forums like APS are good for  bringing together a diverse group of people to learn from others.  Sometimes it can be frustrating to be a minority on a forum but it is also rewarding to be able to share a different point of view.  What keeps me coming back is knowing that some people are willing to listen and that I can learn from the other people here.  To me, that is what community is all about&

-   SalukiFan

[...has left the building.]

SalukiFan- Extremely well said!

[SalukiFan]

SalukiFan- Extremely well said!

Thanks Dan, I'm glad that you brought the topic up.  It's definitely something worth discussing.

[grampster]

Saluk,  ++1

[Guest]

I still fail to see what point you're trying to make.

The point is that your have chosen to identify the entirety of THR as a racist enterprise based on the statements of a very small percentage of its membership in much the same way that the afore mentioned small percentage has determined all black people to be welfare recipients based on a small proportion of the population.

[...has left the building.]

I still fail to see what point you're trying to make.

The point is that your have chosen to identify the entirety of THR as a racist enterprise based on the statements of a very small percentage of its membership in much the same way that the afore mentioned small percentage has determined all black people to be welfare recipients based on a small proportion of the population.

Never once did I say "most", "many", "the majority", etc. The tone is on both forums, in whatever quantity, that is what I am commenting on.

[Guest]

Never once did I say "most", "many", "the majority", etc. The tone is on both forums, in whatever quantity, that is what I am commenting on.

The very fist part of the first post in this thread:

I think there is a sickness on THR and APS...and that is the complete misunderstanding of people who are not conservative white people. Believe it or not, I get racist vibes all the time on both forums. Everyone just needs to chill out with their preconceived notions of people because they are Mexican, Black, or whatever. I understand that many of you have little or no contact with urban culture, or if you do, you're repulsed by it.

Most racists dont realize what they are saying either.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

Daniel,
We are an international community: Republicans and Dems.  Straight, gay, celibate, young, old, male, female, PhD's and dropouts.  Orthodox, atheist, Baptist and all the gaps in between.
And of course, every color of the spectrum.  
Bill W. teaches to "take what works for you, and leave the rest behind."
I assure you, there are some major idiots, and maybe even a few downright evil folks on these fora.
We are bettered as individuals and a community by what we can learn from each other.
Sometimes the lesson is caught by simply coming to understand... "that man is a fool."
FWIW, I think very highly of you, and never knew of your Asian ancestry until very recently, and that changes nothing.
I teach my kids to judge only by character, and hope I model that in my own dealings.

All,
Sure would be nice if we could all just accept that Saluki Fan has properly concluded this thread, and get back to talking about sm's adventures or good ale or someone's latest PC problems.  Just my thought.

"I think the main thing to remember is that it is important to increase your empathy for the other guy and limit your defensiveness so you can learn from someone else."
+1