Author Topic: Wait, I thought it was supposed to be $25 billion...?  (Read 13483 times)

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Wait, I thought it was supposed to be $25 billion...?
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2008, 10:06:53 AM »
For now. It'll be back...



I need to haul out my favore quote again, do I?

"It's a trick. Get an ax."
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Racehorse

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 829
Re: Wait, I thought it was supposed to be $25 billion...?
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2008, 10:42:50 AM »
If the previous bailout is any guide, the only reason it failed is that there wasn't enough pork attached to it. In round two, I expect a $150 billion bailout package to sail through both the house and the senate.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,835
Re: Wait, I thought it was supposed to be $25 billion...?
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2008, 01:29:28 AM »
You're right that finance facilitates production.  You just don't see the implications of that concept.  You can't produce anything in a factory unless you first build the factory.  Without finance and the capital improvements it provides, there would be no production.


Again, this is plainly untrue-some of the largest periods of development in history have happened without any sort of modern finance whatsoever.  Finance is one method of assigning the right to use resources, not the only one.  In some places it has happened by birthright, in others by force (ie, your resources go here or my soldiers come and shoot you, ala Russia), and so on.

Capital improvement is a name for the method by which the right to demand resources from others is assigned; it is not a natural fact of human production. 

Monkeyleg, I agree in principle with the point that modern finance has outpaced other forms of development (for the most part-there are odd examples of command economies vastly outpacing economies that worked more like a capitalist/finance economy in the 20th century)....but in terms of "jewish financial culture", I don't think there is such a thing, and I do note that the prime time of Islamic civilizations was under the Islamic financial system, which was mostly abandoned after the mongol invasions....monetary and banking policy is a big part of Islamic law, and it was advanced for its day.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: Wait, I thought it was supposed to be $25 billion...?
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2008, 12:25:57 PM »
Quote
...it was advanced for its day.

The operative phrase, "for its day."

The phrase  "Jewish financial culture" was probably the wrong one to use. I read an interesting article about how Jews in the Middle East were able to prosper because they saw no wrong with leveraging money, while Arab countries subject to Islamic law were held back because of the prohibition on charging or paying interest.

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Wait, I thought it was supposed to be $25 billion...?
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2008, 12:29:24 PM »
Again, this is plainly untrue-some of the largest periods of development in history have happened without any sort of modern finance whatsoever.  Finance is one method of assigning the right to use resources, not the only one.  In some places it has happened by birthright, in others by force (ie, your resources go here or my soldiers come and shoot you, ala Russia), and so on.

Capital improvement is a name for the method by which the right to demand resources from others is assigned; it is not a natural fact of human production. 

Building a factory is an investment, regardless of who decides to build it.  The factory must also be paid for one way or another, because factories cannot be wished into existence.  That's investment and finance.

It's certainly true that there are multiple ways of deciding how to utilize finances and investments.  Governments can decide it, monarchs can decide it, or free citizens can decide it.  That doesn't change the basic nature of the problem, though.  Investment is a prerequisite for production as we know it, and finance is a prerequisite for investment.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,835
Re: Wait, I thought it was supposed to be $25 billion...?
« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2008, 06:54:30 PM »
The operative phrase, "for its day."

The phrase  "Jewish financial culture" was probably the wrong one to use. I read an interesting article about how Jews in the Middle East were able to prosper because they saw no wrong with leveraging money, while Arab countries subject to Islamic law were held back because of the prohibition on charging or paying interest.

I suspect that was true in Europe as well, but I'm wary of the generalization.  It was almost certainly more complicated than that.  The "Islamic finance" rules were pretty much toast by the past 200 years from what I can gather, anyway.  Even now it's mainly a fad offered by a few relatively wealthy countries looking to attract Arab oil play money.

Headless,

It appears that you're simply redefining the term "finance" to cover any production.  The term doesn't actually mean anything useful, if we're to accept that definition.  And if you qualify it to describe the financial system that we live in, with negotiable instruments flying left and right, then you will easily see the point about alternative means of facilitating production.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."