Author Topic: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.  (Read 13688 times)

HankB

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2008, 08:40:05 AM »
Obama is not going to be giving a speech in Damascus, is he?. He will give a speech in a Muslim country friendly to the US.
That actually narrows it down quite a bit. I'll say Turkey . . . but after that? Bahrain? Qatar? Kuwait? Maybe Indonesia . . .

Having a spot of difficulty coming up with anywhere else. (Just because a Moslem country works with us - like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the various "****stans" doesn't mean it's actually friendly to the US.)
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French G.

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2008, 10:27:08 AM »
Why would one of those "friendly countries" let him talk? Granted most you listed have pretty moderate governments but the last thing they need is to get their own in house crazies stirred up. Or have their country be targeted from afar for conspiring with the infidels.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2008, 10:28:58 AM »
That actually narrows it down quite a bit. I'll say Turkey . . . but after that? Bahrain? Qatar? Kuwait? Maybe Indonesia . . .

Having a spot of difficulty coming up with anywhere else. (Just because a Moslem country works with us - like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the various "****stans" doesn't mean it's actually friendly to the US.)

And do you think Saudi Arabia would not let the guy on whom they depend for their supply of shiny Western weaponry visit their country?
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K Frame

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2008, 11:10:55 AM »
Just a SLIGHT difference between Chamberlain and Churchill and the situation as it exists today...

Britain was fighting a recognized state.

The war on terror largely lacks that nuance.
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makattak

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2008, 12:44:50 PM »
Just a SLIGHT difference between Chamberlain and Churchill and the situation as it exists today...

Britain was fighting a recognized state.

The war on terror largely lacks that nuance.

It can, though. Unfortunately, not enough people realize what we are doing (in Iraq and Afganistan) and what we sould continue to do.

We are and should be fighting EVERY country that supports terrorists. Period.

If terrorists no longer have countries aiding them and giving them refuge, then they will have nowhere to hide.

Too many people spout off about Iraq: "Bush lied! They didn't have weapons of mass destruction!" or "Bush lied! They didn't have anything to do with 9/11!!!!"

That wasn't the point. The point is to make any state that supports terror start fearing that they might be next.

Unfortunately, they now see that so long as their not #1 on the chopping block during an actual attack on the US, they have nothing to worry about.

We are weak: we have a lack of will to use our strength.

The terrorists see this and so do the coutries that support them.
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K Frame

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2008, 12:53:04 PM »
Yes, it CAN have any nuance you want.

That's a large part of the problem.

So, when will the United States be invading the.... United States?

We have a long history of providing support to organizations that are little more than terrorist cells.

"That wasn't the point. The point is to make any state that supports terror start fearing that they might be next."

Funny, I don't remember Colin Powell or Condoleza Rice using that logic to build international support for the US going into Iraq. "Logic" such as that wouldn't have flown then, and it should never fly. And, if ALL Iraq was was some sort of "you could be next" message to the world, instead of a "See Daddy, I'm going to do what you couldn't do and take out Iraq" FU to the elder Mr. Bush (to be fair, I don't remember either Powell or Rice using that "logic" either) we could have easily sent the same message and saved on aircraft transport by invading Mexico.
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makattak

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2008, 01:04:24 PM »
Yes, it CAN have any nuance you want.

That's a large part of the problem.

So, when will the United States be invading the.... United States?

We have a long history of providing support to organizations that are little more than terrorist cells.

"That wasn't the point. The point is to make any state that supports terror start fearing that they might be next."

Funny, I don't remember Colin Powell or Condoleza Rice using that logic to build international support for the US going into Iraq. "Logic" such as that wouldn't have flown then, and it should never fly. And, if ALL Iraq was was some sort of "you could be next" message to the world, instead of a "See Daddy, I'm going to do what you couldn't do and take out Iraq" FU to the elder Mr. Bush (to be fair, I don't remember either Powell or Rice using that "logic" either) we could have easily sent the same message and saved on aircraft transport by invading Mexico.

Perhaps you are right. However, it really seems as though Libya got that message.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

K Frame

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2008, 01:12:52 PM »
Once again, those pesky nuances.

Only in this case, it's a very critical one.

Libya was using terror as a matter of governmental policy, not just looking the other way while its nation generated rogue terrorists who set up training camps.
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Tallpine

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2008, 04:44:25 PM »
Well, if this is a "show everyone what we can do to countries that support/harbor terrorists" operation, we could have just blasted them to heck and went home  ;/
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Perd Hapley

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2008, 02:09:39 AM »
Asserting "they only respect strength" is obviously not sufficient to explain 'the psyche of extremists".  They have killed more Americans since September 11 2001 than on that murderous day. 

Terrorism is not about statistics, but about terror.  Killing a few thousand American soldiers in Iraq is one thing.  Hijacking planes and knocking out the WTO and the Pentagon on live TV is something else entirely. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2008, 06:37:43 AM »
Terrorism is not about statistics, but about terror.  Killing a few thousand American soldiers in Iraq is one thing.  Hijacking planes and knocking out the WTO and the Pentagon on live TV is something else entirely. 

Or blowing up trains in London.
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K Frame

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2008, 01:48:26 PM »
"They have killed more Americans since September 11 2001 than on that murderous day."

Hum...

Had we used that logic in responding to the Japanese aggression in the Pacific in 1941, the Greater East Asian Co-Propserity Sphere would be going strong.

And would include the Philippines, Hawaii, Guam, etc.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2008, 07:13:36 PM »
"They have killed more Americans since September 11 2001 than on that murderous day."

Hum...

Had we used that logic in responding to the Japanese aggression in the Pacific in 1941, the Greater East Asian Co-Propserity Sphere would be going strong.

And would include the Philippines, Hawaii, Guam, etc.

Do you imagine invading, say, Argentina as response to Pearl Harbor would have helped?
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Unisaw

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2008, 08:19:23 PM »
Our only hope is that he uses the speech to announce "common sense" measures to combat Islamic radicals.  We all know that means extreme measures.  But, I'm not going to hold my breath.
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Ron

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2008, 09:07:43 PM »
Do you imagine invading, say, Argentina as response to Pearl Harbor would have helped?

False analogy.

We invaded a country who we were at war with already that was flaunting its breaking of the cease fire agreement from the gulf war.

A country that has strategic significance in the war on terrorists being next to Syria and Iran and all...

A country that we hoped would embrace democracy and the opportunity for a more free society making it a formidable ally with us against jihad ideology.

A country that has the second largest oil reserves known making it a potentially powerful ally in the future.

I thought you were in Israel? What do they teach you there?
 


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MicroBalrog

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2008, 10:17:51 PM »
Let me ask you this:

What do you think the best possible outcome of the Iraq war can be? America will no doubt win, or has already won and is now only mopping up, but what do you think will be the best possible outcome?

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Ron

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2008, 11:18:56 PM »
Let me ask you this:

What do you think the best possible outcome of the Iraq war can be? America will no doubt win, or has already won and is now only mopping up, but what do you think will be the best possible outcome?



Like everyone else I've lowered my expectations and hopes for Iraq.

If they can remain a democracy and keep from self immolation I'll be happy.

Any greater strides than that they make in my lifetime will just be a bonus.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MicroBalrog

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2008, 11:32:15 PM »
So, by democracy you mean something like Indonesia or Israel, where the government staying on its hind feet for more than two minutes is considered a great miracle? Not something like Europe, yes?
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K Frame

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2008, 09:59:37 AM »
"Do you imagine invading, say, Argentina as response to Pearl Harbor would have helped?"

Actually, given the amount of German and Japanese espionage and financing that was coordinated through Argentina during the war, it probably wouldn't have been such a bad idea.

Nice non sequitor, as you know exactly what my point is -- that, in response to such situations, shoving your head so far up your ass that you're looking out your own mouth isn't a viable reaction.

At the time that Iraq was invaded, the administration had presented some pretty compelling evidence that Hussein WAS involved in various terror plots globally.

Why do you think so many nations actually signed off on the Iraq invasion in the first place?

It's the perfect vision of hind sight that allows people like... well... you to get all smug and superior and lordly and say "See! You were wrong! Which is why one should never do anything at all!"

Yeah.

Right.
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longeyes

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2008, 10:16:14 AM »
Quote
What do you think the best possible outcome of the Iraq war can be? America will no doubt win, or has already won and is now only mopping up, but what do you think will be the best possible outcome?

For well short of a trillion dollars we should have neutralized the general Islamist threat throughout the Ummah.  By force of intimidation.  Efficiently, surgically, without ruth.  Not "liberation," nation-building, or social work.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2008, 12:14:41 PM »
For well short of a trillion dollars we should have neutralized the general Islamist threat throughout the Ummah.  By force of intimidation.  Efficiently, surgically, without ruth.  Not "liberation," nation-building, or social work.

Ah, but here's the issue:

Do you think that what America got or will get in Iraq (assuming achievement of all US policy goals) is worth the price paid, in dollars and in lives?

THAT is a legitimate question.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2008, 12:21:09 PM »
Quote
Do you think that what America got or will get in Iraq (assuming achievement of all US policy goals) is worth the price paid, in dollars and in lives?

If we get a military presence in the Middle East, a friendly government that's remotely democratic, and are able to use our presence to pressure other Middle Eastern nations to stop harboring terrorists, then, yes, the price will have been worth it.

The Middle East is the only part of the world that's a direct threat to us right now. Russia is flexing its muscles, and China is getting stronger every day, but I don't think they would go to war with us.

longeyes

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2008, 07:09:57 PM »
I think our political leadership has been operating on faulty assumptions.  I would love to see us succeed, given the cost in blood and treasure, but I have trouble believing that democracy is going to take root in Islamic states or that we are going to see significant religious reforms that would preclude or mitigate further attacks.  We might be able to co-exist with Islam, but only from a position of unchallengeable strength, constant vigilance, and no self-deception.  From my perspective it appears that we have been effectively neutered by economic and financial compromises and that the Europeans, in their zeal for mutliculturalism, are forging a game-changing conflation of socialism and Islam.

A trillion dollars would be "worth it" if it "works."  In the bigger picture I don't see that it is.  Iraq and Afghanistan are just two local theaters in war that is global in geographic scope and indeterminate in duration.
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Scout26

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2008, 07:13:35 PM »
Ah, but here's the issue:

Do you think that what America got or will get in Iraq (assuming achievement of all US policy goals) is worth the price paid, in dollars and in lives?

THAT is a legitimate question.

Let me flip the question back at you.....

Do you think that what America has gotten or will get in Europe is worth the price paid  (WWI, WWII and the Cold War), in dollars and lives ??
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Manedwolf

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Re: So much for "tough on terror" from Obama.
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2008, 08:57:05 PM »
Let me flip the question back at you.....

Do you think that what America has gotten or will get in Europe is worth the price paid  (WWI, WWII and the Cold War), in dollars and lives ??

At the moment, I think we are going to get a profound example of a road to not take, as we watch it lead to their ruin.