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Author Topic: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)  (Read 11447 times)

MGshaggy

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2008, 03:40:32 PM »

Quote
Where exactly does Congress get the authority to bail out automakers?

US Constitution, Art. I, sec. 8, clause 1.

MicroBalrog

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2008, 03:50:19 PM »

US Constitution, Art. I, sec. 8, clause 1.


"The Congress shall have power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Unless you stretch 'General welfare' to include automakers - in which case it can include ANYTHING - this doesn't have much legs.
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MGshaggy

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2008, 04:37:32 PM »

Quote
Unless you stretch 'General welfare' to include automakers - in which case it can include ANYTHING - this doesn't have much legs.

Sorry you don't approve, but thats how it works.   If you don't like it, please feel free to try and convince the Supreme Court decades of precedent is wrong.

MicroBalrog

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2008, 04:43:20 PM »

Sorry you don't approve, but thats how it works.   If you don't like it, please feel free to try and convince the Supreme Court decades of precedent is wrong.

Specifically, it's seven decades of precedent.

The expansive interpretation of the General welfare clause is not found anywhere in the Founder's paper.

Expansive interpretation of that clause and the interstate commerce clause is specifically a child of the 'Switch in Time'.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

txgho1911

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2008, 07:34:18 PM »

Treasury SEC FDIC and all the rest need the correction. To bad we will have to wait 2 or 4 years to get that started.
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Leatherneck

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2008, 03:17:30 PM »

The pending action is not illegal; just immoral and stupid. Congress ducked by giving the much-hated Bush administration a license to spend our money to bail the UAW. For the general welfare. Right.

Our country is accelerating into bankruptcy. Bastards.

TC
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Manedwolf

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2008, 03:26:00 PM »

GM will continue to fail and beg for more until they throw out Wagoner and the other execs, and tell the UAW to go pound sand, that they either get less pay or no pay.

Teknoid

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2008, 06:37:14 PM »

Trabants were awesome cars compared to these.

Sheesh, that thing looks and sounds like a Corvair  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvair

I think they got 10 miles to the quart. At least the one we had did.

Nitrogen

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2008, 07:16:42 PM »

My gut tells me that this is one time when it SHOULD be meaningless.

AIG got billions of dollars when their failure wouldn't have had nearly the impact that the failure of one of the major car makers would.

I remember when big steel failed in this country back in the 1970s. The Government did nothing. The effect was devastating in this country. The effects were far reaching. The worst effect was that it helped devastate the coal industry, throwing thousands more people out of work. It was one of the prime reasons why the recession of the 1970s was so deep and so long.

I'm surprised and glad to hear someone say this.

I'd rather not bail ANYONE out, but I'd much rather bail out people that produce things, i.e. the automakers. and their workers.

We bailed out Conrail.  That worked out well.  If we do this right, it can work out well.
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grampster

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2008, 07:34:21 PM »

Setting aside all the blame for all the horses that have been beaten these last months regarding the meltdown, I still haven't heard the one thing that needs to be said:

No matter how much money is given/loaned to the auto industry, what good will it do if nobody is buying cars?  Last month sales down 40%.  Nobody buys cars, no need for car factories.  Auto assemblers lose jobs.  Nobody buys cars, suppliers have no customers, suppliers lay off more people, less people prepared to buy anything, more people laid off in other sectors because nobody is buying etc etc etc.  Self defeating prophesy.

Detroit has to sell cars.  Banks have to lend money to do that.  Banks not lending.  Any newspaper having gloom and doom on the front page, or elsewhere for that matter, editors are summarily executed by hanging.

I suggested to my congress critters that ALL tax deferred savings and pension plans should allow TAX/PENALTY free withdrawals to buy cars.  This would get existing money into the system, and no debt.  People can start to save for retirement later when the economy starts to rebound.  Start using that cash now for free.  Bill of sale submitted with income tax forms for proof of purchase.  If Detroit was smart they'd slash the costs of 2008 inventory by 50% to get rid of it.  That would put a lot of pre owned cars on the private sale market for lower income folks to buy.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2008, 02:28:34 AM »

Sheesh, that thing looks and sounds like a Corvair  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvair

I think they got 10 miles to the quart. At least the one we had did.

Except that Corvairs were actually good, or so I read (unless you listen to Ralph Nader). Apparently there are Corvair fan clubs to this very day.

Zaporozhetz.... let's say 'Get out and push' is a frequent mode of propulsion for that one.
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charby

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2008, 10:28:09 AM »

  Last month sales down 40%. 

I called my brother Friday night, he is a Sales Manager for a Honda lot to ask him what the mpg was for a Honda Ridgeline, he told me to hold on a sec, then he said 21 hwy, 16 city. Then he said we got three 2008 on the lot, sticker price is $31-33k, I'll sell you anyone of them for $24k. I've never seen Honda's discounted that much at all.

-C
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grampster

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2008, 11:50:26 AM »

A friend of mine had a Corvair, the turbo model. I forget what it was called, maybe Spyder??  Well, it had a serpentine belt that drove about 350 pulleys on that air cooled motor.  The belt used to come off the pulleys every 25 miles or so.  We always had to get out and put the bugger back on.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Balog

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2008, 11:58:33 AM »

Detroit has to sell cars.  Banks have to lend money to do that.  Banks not lending.  Any newspaper having gloom and doom on the front page, or elsewhere for that matter, editors are summarily executed by hanging.

?!?!?! First amendment much? Let's start throwing journalists who criticize the .gov in jail too. Only we don't want to put em in regular jail, where their evil speech can infect others. Let's build some camps out in the middle of nowhere, ship em out there to be re-educated.  ;/

Quote
I suggested to my congress critters that ALL tax deferred savings and pension plans should allow TAX/PENALTY free withdrawals to buy cars.  This would get existing money into the system, and no debt.  People can start to save for retirement later when the economy starts to rebound.  Start using that cash now for free.  Bill of sale submitted with income tax forms for proof of purchase.  If Detroit was smart they'd slash the costs of 2008 inventory by 50% to get rid of it.  That would put a lot of pre owned cars on the private sale market for lower income folks to buy.


1. TANSTAAFL
2. The solution to a problem largely caused by Americans having massive debt loads and piss poor saving habits is.... encouraging them to squander their savings?
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Gewehr98

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2008, 12:22:38 PM »

Quote
Specifically, it's seven decades of precedent.

The expansive interpretation of the General welfare clause is not found anywhere in the Founder's paper.

Expansive interpretation of that clause and the interstate commerce clause is specifically a child of the 'Switch in Time'.

Quote
Sorry you don't approve, but thats how it works.   If you don't like it, please feel free to try and convince the Supreme Court decades of precedent is wrong.

I agree, and will add to it. Tell you what, MB - get your basement-dwelling Israeli posterior over here, get your citizenship, and run for legislative office, vs. bloviating about what you know about these United States from afar.

Then you can actually do something, vs. merely annoying those of us who've been Americans for their respective lifetimes.

I miss my '63 turbo Corvair, btw.  Ralph Nader can suck my left *@#!
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Balog

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2008, 12:42:25 PM »

The Supremes have also held that the Interstate Commerce clause applies to things made and used by the same person, in one state. They've also held that when the 2nd Amendment says "Shall not be infringed" they really mean "Go nuts, just be reasonable."

Oh, and if you're so worried about going against years of precedent, you must hate this, right?
Quote from: French G.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

charby

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2008, 12:56:05 PM »

I agree, and will add to it. Tell you what, MB - get your basement-dwelling Israeli posterior over here, get your citizenship, and run for legislative office, vs. bloviating about what you know about these United States from afar.

Then you can actually do something, vs. merely annoying those of us who've been Americans for their respective lifetimes.


I concur. When you are getting your advanced degree at whatever American university you are planning to go to, become an American citizen by the time you graduate. You point this an that out about us and for the most part there isn't jack *expletive deleted*it we can do about it.

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MGshaggy

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2008, 02:39:41 PM »

Quote
Oh, and if you're so worried about going against years of precedent, you must hate this, right?

Balog, I'm all for setting new precedent where appropriate, but that takes judgement and a realistic assessment of the situation, even if you don't like the answer.  The point being there's no sense wasting your time tilting at windmills or engaging in fights you cannot win.

Take interstate commerce for example.  We probably all agree that the commerce clause has been abused to create congressional authority to legislate on any matter whatsoever, but that fact is simply not going to change without a radical reorganization of the SCOTUS first.  Realistically we're not going to see a major change in commerce clause jurisprudence for quite some time (if at all), but if you want to waste your time trying, by my guest.  But bellyaching about it here is just preaching to the choir, unproductive, and rather annoying.  Many people thought Raich and Stewart would be the cases to put a stop to the overuse of the commerce clause, but anyone with a lick of legal training should have been to see how those cases would have went down at the outset.  I for one, was not surprised in the least - perhaps you were.

MicroBalrog

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2008, 04:09:15 PM »

Quote
I concur. When you are getting your advanced degree at whatever American university you are planning to go to, become an American citizen by the time you graduate. You point this an that out about us and for the most part there isn't jack *expletive deleted*it we can do about it.

The way the rules work, I'll need five years of legal residency before I would be able to become a citizen. There's other convoluted stuff, but do not worry! You shall have your own Citizen MicroBalrog sooner than I suspect you would actually like.

Mind, my plan isn't to run for office, my best-case plan is to find a job teaching in some community college or something of that type.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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makattak

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2008, 05:37:00 AM »

The way the rules work, I'll need five years of legal residency before I would be able to become a citizen. There's other convoluted stuff, but do not worry! You shall have your own Citizen MicroBalrog sooner than I suspect you would actually like.

Mind, my plan isn't to run for office, my best-case plan is to find a job teaching in some community college or something of that type.

I applaud you for putting up with the crap we ask people to do to become citizens.

We REALLY need to do something about legal immigration problems.
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So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

charby

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2008, 06:49:10 AM »

The way the rules work, I'll need five years of legal residency before I would be able to become a citizen. There's other convoluted stuff, but do not worry! You shall have your own Citizen MicroBalrog sooner than I suspect you would actually like.

Mind, my plan isn't to run for office, my best-case plan is to find a job teaching in some community college or something of that type.
Average PhD takes about 5 years to complete, there you go.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: U.S. Treasury Ready to Prevent Failure of Automakers (Update2)
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2008, 06:50:05 AM »

Average PhD takes about 5 years to complete, there you go.



Yes, this is precisely the plan.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner
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