Author Topic: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]  (Read 161335 times)

Seenterman

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #75 on: January 13, 2009, 05:03:40 PM »
I'd like to know if anyone here but MicroBalrog know the history of Isreal and the Palestinian people because it is a far more complex conflict that people make in seem to be. Its not Hamas fires rocket, Isreal fires back at Hamas.

First let me address something.

Quote
As of today 911 Palestinians have died in the conflict so far as apposed to 13 Israelis.

Perhaps they should think of that figure the next time they think lobbing a few rockets over is a good idea?

Not only is it wrong, it's a war they should know damn well they can't win.
 
 


Quote
Then maybe the Palis should rethink firing rockets AT CIVILIAN AREAS ON PURPOSE from the roofs OF THEIR OWN OCCUPIED BUILDINGS.

Would you be happier if they were lobbing WMDs on those rockets? They would if they had them.



Hamas along with at least 2 other splinter terrorist groups are launching rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli civilians. So even if Hama declared and stuck to a cease fire (like a 1% chance of that) there would still be rocket attacks on Isreal.

Second Hamas doesnt give a damn about Palestinian civilians, in their sick demented view if they have to allow/cause every single man, woman, and child to die to distroy Isreal it would be worth it to them. They use tactics that directly place non combatants in harms way, goading IDF forces into firing on Palestinian civilians. Dont say its a war they know they cannot win, they think that "g0d" is on their side, you wouldn't belive what people will do or think when they think "g0d" is on their side.

My point is that 3 Israeli civilians have died during this recent conflict along with 10 IDF soliders opposed to the 911 Palestinians that died. Which is a ratio of 70 to 1 including the soliders but a ratio of 1/303.6 excluding the soliders. My question to the posters that are critical of me is what is an acceptable attrition rate?  1/90 , 1/100, 1/200?  For every Israelis civilian that dies how many Palestinians would you deem acceptable to die? And for bonus points what is worse the Hamas terrorists that shoot faulty missles into Isreal everyday or the retaliatory strike that kills 5 Hamas terrorist and 45 civilians?
I cant answer that but if anyone else can be my guest.

Im damn glad Hamas doesn't have and WMD's, and pray the never get their hand on them but they dont have WMD's and its pointless to speculate "what if's".

Just and FYI Hamas is a LEGITIMATE part of the Palestinian government thanks to free democratic elections (sucks when democracy doesn't work the way we want) Hamas leaders have quite a few seats in their Parliment, and have gone about this by having a good P.R. campaign in Palestine.

They dont only bomb and mortar but they also set up field hospitals, distribute food & medical supplies, offer to educate Palestinian children in their Madrass's (sp?) which are religious schools meant to indoctrinate the next generation into their "holy war". I say this not to paint Hamas in a positive light but to shed light on the Palestinian people and why some of them support Hamas. For them it must seem as if they have no other choice, they live in abject poverty and to them Hamas is their Red Cross, the only orginization they think is trying to help then. 


MicroBalrog

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #76 on: January 13, 2009, 05:24:35 PM »
Quote
And for bonus points what is worse the Hamas terrorists that shoot faulty missles into Isreal everyday or the retaliatory strike that kills 5 Hamas terrorist and 45 civilians?

But that is not the ratio. According to Hamas itself, 70% of those killed are combatants.

Quote
d. Which is a ratio of 70 to 1 including the soliders but a ratio of 1/303.6 excluding the soliders.

When the US Marines confront insurgents in Northern Iraq and inflict casualties on a 50-1 ratio, they are cheered as heroes as  they properly should be because they're doing a proper good job.

When the military kills a lot of enmies and takes few casualties, that is a good thing. If I could so arrange for the military to take NO casualties, I would.

I agree with you that we should not indiscriminately exterminate civilians, but that's also no what we're doing.

Quote
They dont only bomb and mortar but they also set up field hospitals, distribute food & medical supplies, offer to educate Palestinian children in their Madrass's (sp?) which are religious schools meant to indoctrinate the next generation into their "holy war". I say this not to paint Hamas in a positive light but to shed light on the Palestinian people and why some of them support Hamas. For them it must seem as if they have no other choice, they live in abject poverty and to them Hamas is their Red Cross, the only orginization they think is trying to help then.

Oh quite.

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roo_ster

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2009, 05:44:27 PM »
Excusing evil or limiting the response to evil because the evildoers are not particularly good at their evil acts is worthy of ridicule.  Hamas and its supporters are reaping what they have sewn, and it is a bumper harvest.

Negotiating with a government because in some how or some way it is considered "legitimate" shows ignorance of the entire purpose of negotiation.  Legitimacy has nothing to do with it.  One engages in negotiations because one determines that it might be to one's advantage or further some goal.

In this particular case, negotiation for a truce was tried and failed, given the 6000+ rockets that were shot at Israel.

Now, the use of force comes to the fore, as negotiation has been fruitless and ignoring Hamas is no longer tolerable (politically or otherwise).  In its attack on Hamas, Israel is using force to further some policy goal.  They ought to continue until Hamas and the Gaza population is hurting enough to change their course of action to something more acceptable to Israel.

Gaza is a basket case propped up by the UNRWA, as UNRWA provides a majority or near-majority of the "GNP" of Gaza.  It is a great, big welfare housing project that allows those who choose to, to spend their time shooting rockets at Israel rather than scrabbling for sustenance.   The quickest way to resolve the Gaza problem would be to withdraw every penny of aid to Gaza, forcing the inhabitants to either earn their daily bread, go elsewhere to do so, or starve.
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roo_ster

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Manedwolf

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #78 on: January 13, 2009, 06:14:50 PM »
From a video I was watching earlier. Results almost instantly following a bomb, but bombs don't do that.

Nitrocellulose rocket propellant, or fuel oil? I don't know combustion profiles that well.


roo_ster

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2009, 06:20:42 PM »
Because its not just Hamas firing rockets, its IJ and Fatah groups as well.  Secondly the technology level of the rockets, and the mortars which also come over, are so low that it is not that hard for someone to hide some and then pop them off when the IDF declares victory.  This is what Hezbollah did, after all.

The use of ISR UAVs, counter-battery radar, and quick-reaction effectors like nearby arty & patrolling attack aircraft can nab the shooters fairly quickly.  The Israelis are using an approach similar to that to kill rocket-tossers in the numbers we have seen and some deplore.
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roo_ster

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agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #80 on: January 14, 2009, 09:54:06 AM »
The heroes of the IDF bravely take out an antenatal clinic.  Deliberately!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7825215.stm
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Manedwolf

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #81 on: January 14, 2009, 10:11:45 AM »
The heroes of the IDF bravely take out an antenatal clinic.  Deliberately!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7825215.stm

And Hamas is known to use Red Crescent ambulances to transport weapons.

What are you going to do next, celebrate St. Pancake here?

roo_ster

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #82 on: January 14, 2009, 10:19:26 AM »
The heroes of the IDF bravely take out an antenatal clinic.  Deliberately!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7825215.stm

Better than by accident, given that the IDF believed the place was being used by Hamas, as was stated in the article.

If the heroes of Hamas would stop hiding behind women, children, and "antenatal" clinics; using hospitals as terrorist HQs; and using ambulances to transport both terrorists and ordnance; the IDF would have no cause to blow the crap outta such places.  Given the evidence that Hamas does such things, they have forfeited the usual consideration.

Now, I am sure the IDF has horked up some fire missions, inadvertently or otherwise.  Thing is, lacking the 600+ rockets Hamas tossed into Israel, NONE of these missions would have occurred.

BTW, how many 15-minute warnings did Hamas give before it shot each of the 6000+ rockets into Israel?

Here is a little bit of intel discovered by by the Israelis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI1q3etFX2k&eurl


And Hamas is known to use Red Crescent ambulances to transport weapons.

What are you going to do next, celebrate St. Pancake here?

My maple syrup has been given a warning order indicating it should prep for immediate IHOP Ops.


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roo_ster

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roo_ster

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Here are the wonderful Hamas goons at "work:"





http://www.usnews.com/blogs/sam-dealey/2009/1/13/hamas-steals-aid-from-palestinians-outrage-to-follow.html

The Israeli Defense Forces continue to face a good deal of heat from humanitarian groups such as Human Rights Watch, which say the military's tight cordon around Gaza City is taking a punishing toll on civilians who are in desperate need of humanitarian supplies.

Apparently Hamas, the terrorist "government" in Gaza, doesn't agree. As the Jerusalem Post reports:

Quote
    Hamas on Monday raided some 100 aid trucks that Israel had allowed into Gaza, stole their contents and sold them to the highest bidders.

    ... Since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead, the IDF has facilitated the transfer of close to 900 trucks into the Gaza Strip with over 20,000 tons of basic food and medical supplies.

So Hamas loots 1 out of 9 aid trucks, not only stealing food and supplies from the mouths of its own people to fund more rockets but also jeopardizing Israel's inclination to allow future relief deliveries.

What are the chances that HRW, the United Nations, and other humanitarian organizations will now express the same outrage over relief access with Hamas that they showed with Israel? Far less than 1 in 9 is my guess.




Here is the whole of the j-post report:




http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424932109&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

Hamas raids aid trucks, sells supplies
Jan. 12, 2009
YAAKOV KATZ and JPost.com staff , THE JERUSALEM POST

Hamas on Monday raided some 100 aid trucks that Israel had allowed into Gaza, stole their contents and sold them to the highest bidders.

The IDF said that since terminal activity is coordinated with UNRWA and the Red Cross, Israel could do nothing to prevent such raids, Israel Radio reported.

Between 10 a.m. to 1 p.m., the army had ceased all military activity in Gaza and once again established a "humanitarian corridor" to help facilitate the transfer of the supplies.

The Kerem Shalom and Karni crossings had been opened to allow in the aid trucks.

Security officials at Kerem Shalom thwarted an attempt to smuggle electrical goods, disguised as humanitarian supplies, into Gaza. The electrical goods included computers, infra-red cameras, ovens, microwaves and other electronic equipment.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak has forbidden the entry of electronics to Gaza since the goods do not fall under the category of humanitarian aid. Some electronic equipment has been let in as per an official Palestinian request, such as equipment used to repair the damaged electrical grid in Gaza.

Meanwhile, Israel is considering establishing a field hospital in the Gaza Strip to treat Palestinian civilians wounded in fighting between the IDF and Hamas.

The plan would be to establish the field hospital outside the Gaza Strip, but the IDF is also considering the possibility of erecting the hospital inside the Palestinian territory so it will be more accessible to the Palestinian population. It would be run by the IDF Medical Corps.

Also Monday, in an effort to promote Israeli humanitarian efforts in the Gaza Strip, the Defense Ministry launched a new Web site that provides a live video feed of the Kerem Shalom cargo crossing, through which international organizations have been transferring basic foods and medical supplies to Gaza.

The footage can be viewed here.

Since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead, the IDF has facilitated the transfer of close to 900 trucks into the Gaza Strip with over 20,000 tons of basic foods and medical supplies.

According to an army estimate on Monday, slightly over 900 Palestinians have been killed since Operation Cast Lead began in December 2008. Based on intelligence and information obtained by the Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration, the IDF has determined that at least 400 of those killed are known Hamas operatives. The IDF further believes that among the remaining 500, a significant number are also Hamas operatives.







Regards,

roo_ster

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agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2009, 10:40:08 AM »
Oh for a non-IDF source to that "news", jfruser - one of the reasons why HRW, UNRWA and the rest of the humanitarian agencies arent complaining about Hamas raiding the trucks could be because it is not happening.

Oh, and if you had bothered to read that BBC article, you would have noticed that the clinic was not being used by Hamas.  The IDF claimed that there was "terrorist operations" nearby
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roo_ster

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2009, 11:19:55 AM »
Oh for a non-IDF source to that "news", jfruser - one of the reasons why HRW, UNRWA and the rest of the humanitarian agencies arent complaining about Hamas raiding the trucks could be because it is not happening.

Yep, them Joos are wily and not to be trusted.  OTOH, Hamas and their propaganda arm, the BBC, are assumed accurate until proved false.

And the 99.5% Pali UNRWA is the very soul of objectivity and would not slant its reports, no siree.

Oh, and if you had bothered to read that BBC article, you would have noticed that the clinic was not being used by Hamas.  The IDF claimed that there was "terrorist operations" nearby

Yes, I read the article.  "Nearby" in Gaza City pretty much means the alley.  Take a gander in google maps.

Have you given any thought that the IDF could have been
1. Targeting the "nearby" Hamas terrorists rather than the milk factory clinic
2. The clinic was inside the CEP of munitions used by the IDF
3. The IDF sought to avoid casualties by warning those inside the clinic to skedaddle

Of course, all this assumes the Pali propaganda machine is 100% truthful in its reporting on the matter.  If it is not, and the terrorists were putting the clinic proper to use in some way, it is free game.

Nah, lets just assume the Joos get a kick out of blasting clinics.

Oh, BTW, how many 15 minute warnings given by Hamas have you been able to track down?  There are 6000+ opportunities to have given one such warning.
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roo_ster

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agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2009, 11:26:34 AM »
Hurrah!  Lets respond to any questioning of the IDF narrative with attacks on everyone else (suggesting a frankly bizarre "everyone else is out to get us" tinfoilery), and vague allegations of anti-semitism. 

As for Hamas warnings, I dont think they have ever given any - but then given the lack of accuracy of the rockets, it would be difficult for them to do this.
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roo_ster

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2009, 12:35:52 PM »
Hurrah!  Lets respond to any questioning of the IDF narrative with attacks on everyone else (suggesting a frankly bizarre "everyone else is out to get us" tinfoilery), and vague allegations of anti-semitism. 

I am sorry if my allegations of anti-semitism were vague. 

"Hamas exhibits no shame at using anti-semitism early & often."  <---Is that clear enough?

Well, considering I am not one of the "us" you mention (being neither Israeli nor Jewish), I'll discount your commentary about tinfoilery.

In the case of the article in question, there is no IDF narrative.  It is wholly sourced from a http://www.christianaid.org.uk news release.  What the BBC has done is not journalism and is more akin to stenography.  Your tax dollars at "work."

BBC and other institutions conquered by the left have a bias against liberal* governments when they clash with totalitarians and savages.  We saw it in the Cold War, we see it in the clash with militant Islam.  BTDT, have neither forgotten nor forgiven.

If you think you are going to get unbiased data from UNRWA or other organizations whose very existence depends on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict continuing in perpetuity, I would suggest you ought to re-read some of Max Weber's works.

Also, I am not blind to the fact that the IDF is trying to influence the perception of this conflict. 

As for Hamas warnings, I dont think they have ever given any - but then given the lack of accuracy of the rockets, it would be difficult for them to do this.

Well, I sure wouldn't want to put terrorists who deliberately target civilians at any difficulty!








* Liberal as in treat their people with a some decency and have an understanding as to the limits of gov't powers.
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roo_ster

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agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #88 on: January 14, 2009, 02:23:31 PM »
A remarkable jfruser post that, possibly the first on this thread to contain a grain of truth:

Quote from: Jfruser
Also, I am not blind to the fact that the IDF is trying to influence the perception of this conflict.

zomg!
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Boomhauer

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2009, 02:33:09 PM »
Quote
As for Hamas warnings, I dont think they have ever given any - but then given the lack of accuracy of the rockets, it would be difficult for them to do this.

If Hamas had accurate, guided missiles, what do you think they would target? And do you believe they would give warnings of any kind?

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MicroBalrog

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #90 on: January 14, 2009, 02:43:00 PM »
...and ANOTHER rocket just fell here. Apparently a community center was narrowly missed.
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Manedwolf

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #91 on: January 14, 2009, 02:44:45 PM »
...and ANOTHER rocket just fell here. Apparently a community center was narrowly missed.

Dammit. Stay safe. :P

Hopefully whoever it is that's got your range will get nailed soon.

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2009, 02:53:07 PM »
If Hamas had accurate, guided missiles, what do you think they would target? And do you believe they would give warnings of any kind?


military installations, and no.
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Manedwolf

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #93 on: January 14, 2009, 02:53:55 PM »
military installations, and no.

Please tell me you're not that naive. Who do their suicide bombers target? Cafes are military installations?

What reality are you living in?

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #94 on: January 14, 2009, 03:52:47 PM »
Please tell me you're not that naive. Who do their suicide bombers target? Cafes are military installations?

What reality are you living in?

Suicide bombers were able to get into military installations, were they? 
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Balog

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #95 on: January 14, 2009, 03:53:46 PM »
Suicide bombers were able to get into military installations, were they? 

Right, they only targeted civilians because they couldn't get to anything better.  ;/
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MicroBalrog

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2009, 03:54:24 PM »
Suicide bombers were able to get into military installations, were they? 

Yes, several times. They also could blow themselves up at the entrances to said installations, which, if done properly, would kill dozens of people as they filter in for duty.

Strangely this was rarely the chosen tactic.
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lupinus

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #97 on: January 14, 2009, 03:57:36 PM »
Quote
Suicide bombers were able to get into military installations, were they?
So then you are fine with targeting civilians because they can't reach a harder target?

Yet you whine a few civilians get killed because their elected government hides behind them?
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #98 on: January 14, 2009, 04:11:44 PM »
So then you are fine with targeting civilians because they can't reach a harder target?

Yet you whine a few civilians get killed because their elected government hides behind them?

Did I say that I was fine with them doing that? 
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lupinus

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #99 on: January 14, 2009, 04:23:05 PM »
Don't see you doing anything but defending them
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.