Author Topic: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]  (Read 161307 times)

Seenterman

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2009, 03:11:59 PM »
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Excusing evil or limiting the response to evil because the evildoers are not particularly good at their evil acts is worthy of ridicule.

I belive in an appropriate sized responce to an attack, not a full scale invasion if 3 civillians are killed.

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Negotiating with a government because in some how or some way it is considered "legitimate" shows ignorance of the entire purpose of negotiation.

I think you might be ignorant of the concept of negotiation.
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Definition: Negotiation is a dialogue intended to resolve disputes, to produce an agreement upon courses of action, to bargain for individual or collective advantage, or to craft outcomes to satisfy various interests. It is the primary method of alternative dispute resolution.

Ok explain why negotiating with a legitimate government shows ignorance, IMO it just looks stuborn when you refuse to negotiate. And theres no need for the "" around legitimate, Hamas won 76/132 seats in Parliment thanks to Democratic elections. That's akin to denying Obama is now our legitimate President because he's a radical lefty or whatever.

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The quickest way to resolve the Gaza problem would be to withdraw every penny of aid to Gaza, forcing the inhabitants to either earn their daily bread, go elsewhere to do so, or starve.

Great your just a moral as Hamas! You would rather see millions of people starve to death, because of the actions of a few radicals, so that a one more Israli wont be killed. Thats not genocide, or what Hamas would do in the inverse.

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The heroes of the IDF bravely take out an antenatal clinic.  Deliberately!

No need for sarcasim, but he does bring up a point.

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And Hamas is known to use Red Crescent ambulances to transport weapons.

So what is the point, bomb all Red Crescent ambulances?

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If the heroes of Hamas would stop hiding behind women, children, and "antenatal" clinics; using hospitals as terrorist HQs; and using ambulances to transport both terrorists and ordnance; the IDF would have no cause to blow the crap outta such places.  Given the evidence that Hamas does such things, they have forfeited the usual consideration.

Ok so your enemy is a war criminal so does that means you must stoop to his level and start bombing Hospitals, Ambulances, and U.N. Compounds? (The UN thing happened today) No. That just makes you a war criminal too, just because your enemy does dispicable things does not give you a pass to do so. Oh and their is no "forfeited the usual consideration" claus in the Geneva Convention if someone else violates the Conventions, and dont tell me Hamas in not a signitor, I know that already but Isreal is and it is bound to abide by the Treaty in respects to civilians. Which makes it illegal to target hospitals.

Let me say this again, because it seems alot of posters didnt read it the first time. Hamas gets Palestinian civilians killed on purpose.
Hamas likes to use civilian casulties in their P.R. war across the Middle East, "Oh Isreal killed another 30 civilians today their murdering us, Iran send us some AK's and mortars please!" and ya know what, Isreal plays right into their hand.

Terrorist storm civilians house, Fires at IDF troops in Gaza (Why they shouldnt be their and this should only be an air war with limited ground engagements.) IDF troops return fire, kills terrorist but in the process kills a 6 civilians, two being children and now Hamas has won a P.R. victory. They can say Isreal kills women and children and appeal for aid from other Middle East countries hostile with Isreal. 

Really think about this for a second, If you were engaging a hostile force in an Urban environment would you fire at them from your house?! NO! You would run in someone elses house and shoot from their so they dont know where you live.

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According to Hamas itself, 70% of those killed are combatants.

Some 1,100 Palestinians have been killed, roughly half of them civilians, according to U.N. and Palestinian medical officials. Thirteen Israelis also have died.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090115/D95NIRBG0.html

Micro, If you could cite your source that would be great, because at the moment it doesn't look like 70% of those killed are combatants.

Shelled a UN Compound that was being used a a refugee center for Palestinian civilians.

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U.N. spokesmen confirmed that at least three people were wounded but said the fire and smoke engulfing the compound made it impossible to know if it had been completely evacuated.

U.N. spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna said the U.N. had given Israel the coordinates of the building and the compound was also clearly marked with U.N. flags and logos. Large stocks of food and fuel used to supply hospital and water pumps were at risk of destruction, as were valuable U.N. archives dating back to 1948, Abu Hasna said.

IDF Forces also hit a hospital and civilain buildings with no explination in the news article.

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Three shells hit the Al Quds hospital in the neighborhood, setting its pharmacy building ablaze, trapping about 400 patients and staff inside the main hospital building, said Khaled Abu Zeid, a medic inside the building reached on his mobile phone.

In the nearby downtown area, Israeli tanks fired shells at five high-rise buildings, Palestinian witnesses said.

Remeber what I said in my previous post about at least two other splinter terrorist groups also firing rockets and mortars into Isreal.

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Israel says it will press ahead with the campaign until it receives guarantees of a complete halt to rocket fire and an end to weapons smuggling into Gaza from neighboring Egypt.

In Damascus, Hamas deputy chief Moussa Abou Marzouk told Al-Arabiya television that Hamas demands an immediate cease-fire, to be followed by Israeli troop withdrawal and the opening of the border for humanitarian aid.



Ok great the Isrealis want the impossible and wont stop until Hamas stops, and Hamas wont stop until they stop. Great they both sound like children and how are the Palestinians supposed to stop smuggling tunnles starting in Egypt? 

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When the US Marines confront insurgents in Northern Iraq and inflict casualties on a 50-1 ratio, they are cheered as heroes as  they properly should be because they're doing a proper good job.

When the military kills a lot of enmies and takes few casualties, that is a good thing. If I could so arrange for the military to take NO casualties, I would.

I agree with you that we should not indiscriminately exterminate civilians, but that's also no what we're doing.


I agree with you about the kill ratio in relation to military units and that if no IDF solider had to lose their life and could score all hostile kills that would be magnificent. But I was talking in about Israeli civilian casualties relation to Palestinian civilian casualties. The article I quoted stated that about 50% of all Palestinian deaths where civilian, there were 1,100 death but lets just say that only 500 were civilians. Three Israeli civilians died, is what sparked this off offensive, now compared to the Palestinian civilians deaths that 166.66 Palestinian civilians killed for every 1 Israeli civilian killed.
Note: I did not count the 10 IDF solider deaths, because they theoretically wouldnt have happened had this offensive not been lauched.

I never meant to insinuate that Isreal is indiscriminately exterminating civilians but at the same time it doesn't seem like your doing a good job distinguishing the between combatants and non combatants.


Now is my questions, Is it worth it.
How many Palestinian civilians are acceptable to die for every Israeli civilian killed?
Or how many Palestinian civilians are acceptable to die for every Hamas terrorist killed?

These recent events havn't portrayed Isreal's military in a positive light.


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They dont only bomb and mortar but they also set up field hospitals, distribute food & medical supplies, offer to educate Palestinian children in their Madrass's (sp?) which are religious schools meant to indoctrinate the next generation into their "holy war". I say this not to paint Hamas in a positive light but to shed light on the Palestinian people and why some of them support Hamas. For them it must seem as if they have no other choice, they live in abject poverty and to them Hamas is their Red Cross, the only orginization they think is trying to help then.

Oh quite.


I dont know why you told me to quite, I would like you to elaborate on that comment and just to help cite my assertions heres a exerpt from Wiki

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The group devotes much of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities".

makattak

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2009, 03:43:47 PM »
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I never meant to insinuate that Isreal is indiscriminately exterminating civilians but at the same time it doesn't seem like your doing a good job distinguishing the between combatants and non combatants.

If your enemy is interposing their civilians between themselves and the people whom they are attacking, why do you blame the country responding to their attacks?

It seems those of you who want no civilians deaths are suggesting that Israel should go into Gaza, take over it's government and police the country and catch only those who are directly responsible for these actions.

Israel is not a police force. The government of Gaza is committing ACTS OF WAR. Israel has no responsibility to go in and catch the perpertrators and try them for a crime. The respond to acts of war with WAR.

If the costs of this war are too high, why don't the Gazans STOP FIRING MISSILES INTO ISRAEL?

I leave you with a quote from Sir Winston Churchill:

"Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves."

It seems too many people in the modern world don't get this.

And I think the U.S. may reach such a position since we seem to be unwilling to fight when "our victory will be sure and not too costly"

I guess history is easily forgotten. (Or ignored)
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2009, 04:14:32 PM »
If your enemy is interposing their civilians between themselves and the people whom they are attacking, why do you blame the country responding to their attacks?

Because Hamas are doing what every terror group - including the pre-Israeli Jewish groups - have done.  This is what terrorist groups do.  It does not give those fighting the group carte blanche to bomb the civilians anyway.

Quote from: matakak
It seems those of you who want no civilians deaths are suggesting that Israel should go into Gaza, take over it's government and police the country and catch only those who are directly responsible for these actions.

No.  What I am suggesting is that we in the West respect the democratic decision of the Palestinian people and engage with Hamas diplomatically.  We have emphatically failed to do this.

Quote from: Makattak
Israel is not a police force. The government of Gaza is committing ACTS OF WAR. Israel has no responsibility to go in and catch the perpertrators and try them for a crime. The respond to acts of war with WAR.

The acts of war in this case were perpetrated by the Israelis against the Palestinians, specifically Hamas.  Israel and Hamas, with Egyptian help, gained a six month ceasefire with the aim of culling the rocket fire and lifting the blockade.  Just after this ceasefire started, Islamic Jihad and Fatah fired several rockets from Gaza, in response to the Israelis killing one of their men in the West Bank.  Israel told Hamas to stop the rockets, which to a large part they were able to do.  Despite this, the blockade was not lifted and the Israelis did raid the Strip in November, killing Hamas members.  Hamas responded with rockets, and the situation deteriorated to the current sad state.

Quote from: makattak
If the costs of this war are too high, why don't the Gazans STOP FIRING MISSILES INTO ISRAEL?

Because that is the only weapon, in fact the only diplomatic tactic, open to Hamas.  If you refuse to engage with them, refuse to respect the result of their elections, and refuse to recognize any non-violent measures they take then you leave them with very little options but to use violent methods against you.

Quote from: makattak
I leave you with a quote from Sir Winston Churchill:

"Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves."

It seems too many people in the modern world don't get this.

Churchill was fighting one of the two worst regimes ever to exist, a state that took the rest of the world on for the best part of three years and which required millions of deaths to stop it.  Hamas have about the same military power as one half of one He-111's bombload, without the He-111 to get it anywhere useful. 

Quote from: makattak
And I think the U.S. may reach such a position since we seem to be unwilling to fight when "our victory will be sure and not too costly"

I guess history is easily forgotten. (Or ignored)

No, I think you will fool yourselves into thinking Islamic fundamentalism is anything other than the sideshow it is. 
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"Make peace, you fools"

roo_ster

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2009, 04:29:20 PM »
jfruser:
Excusing evil or limiting the response to evil because the evildoers are not particularly good at their evil acts is worthy of ridicule.

Seenterman:
I belive in an appropriate sized responce to an attack, not a full scale invasion if 3 civillians are killed.

jfruser:
Well, when you are attacked by a knife-wielding criminal assailant, feel free to limit yourself to a knife.  I, OTOH, will draw a firearm (if practicable) and shoot until the knife-wielder is no longer a threat.

Proportionality in a life or death struggle is for fools.




jfruser:
Negotiating with a government because in some how or some way it is considered "legitimate" shows ignorance of the entire purpose of negotiation.

Seenterman:
I think you might be ignorant of the concept of negotiation.

Definition: Negotiation is a dialogue intended to resolve disputes, to produce an agreement upon courses of action, to bargain for individual or collective advantage, or to craft outcomes to satisfy various interests. It is the primary method of alternative dispute resolution.

Ok explain why negotiating with a legitimate government shows ignorance, IMO it just looks stuborn when you refuse to negotiate. And theres no need for the "" around legitimate, Hamas won 76/132 seats in Parliment thanks to Democratic elections. That's akin to denying Obama is now our legitimate President because he's a radical lefty or whatever.

jfruser:
Might want to quote me in full:
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Negotiating with a government because in some how or some way it is considered "legitimate" shows ignorance of the entire purpose of negotiation.  Legitimacy has nothing to do with it.  One engages in negotiations because one determines that it might be to one's advantage or further some goal.

In this particular case, negotiation for a truce was tried and failed, given the 6000+ rockets that were shot at Israel.

Now, the use of force comes to the fore, as negotiation has been fruitless and ignoring Hamas is no longer tolerable (politically or otherwise).  In its attack on Hamas, Israel is using force to further some policy goal.  They ought to continue until Hamas and the Gaza population is hurting enough to change their course of action to something more acceptable to Israel.

I am very comfortable with my understanding of negotiation, especially since your chosen defiition echoes what I wrote.

Legitimacy is, for the most part, irrelevant.  If the "legitimate" gov't can not deliver or has nothing to offer, there is no use wasting one's time negotiating with them.  Might as well negotiate with a "legitimate" Yorkshire Terrier, for all the good it will do you.





jfruser:
The quickest way to resolve the Gaza problem would be to withdraw every penny of aid to Gaza, forcing the inhabitants to either earn their daily bread, go elsewhere to do so, or starve.

Seenterman:
Great your just a moral as Hamas! You would rather see millions of people starve to death, because of the actions of a few radicals, so that a one more Israli wont be killed. Thats not genocide, or what Hamas would do in the inverse.

jfruser:
No, I am much more moral than Hamas (or UNRWA, or any other org that tosses tax dollars at Gaza), thank you very much.

The Palis in Gaza have no moral claim on the fruit of anyone else's labor.  EU countries and the USA provide roughly 90% of the aid that goes into Gaza.  Those monies are tax monies, taken from taxpayers (ultimately) by threat of violence.

That aid money is the only thing that allows the Palis in Gaza to stay in place and waste their lives.  It would be a kindness to stop that cash akin to forcing multi-generational welfare moochers off the welfare rolls and forcing them to provide for temselves.  Also, working 18 hours a day to keep the wolf from the door leaves very little time to spend on murderous plans for your neighbor.

Stop the monies.  Get them off the dole.  Make them earn their way in the world, even if they have to displace to do it.  Welcome to the 21st century and adult responsibilities.





jfruser:
If the heroes of Hamas would stop hiding behind women, children, and "antenatal" clinics; using hospitals as terrorist HQs; and using ambulances to transport both terrorists and ordnance; the IDF would have no cause to blow the crap outta such places.  Given the evidence that Hamas does such things, they have forfeited the usual consideration.

Seenterman:
Ok so your enemy is a war criminal so does that means you must stoop to his level and start bombing Hospitals, Ambulances, and U.N. Compounds? (The UN thing happened today) No. That just makes you a war criminal too, just because your enemy does dispicable things does not give you a pass to do so. Oh and their is no "forfeited the usual consideration" claus in the Geneva Convention if someone else violates the Conventions, and dont tell me Hamas in not a signitor, I know that already but Isreal is and it is bound to abide by the Treaty in respects to civilians. Which makes it illegal to target hospitals.

jfruser:
You have no understanding of the Laws of War or the various agreements.  Zilch, bupkis, nada.  Reading your response is not just unhelpful, it actually destroys understanding with mis/disinformation.  The question then becomes, "Does Seenterman sew mis/disinformation out of ignorance or malevolence?"

FWIW, the criminal act is using the agreed-upon no-go artifacts for war: hospitals, religious sites, school buses full of hemophiliac nuns, etc.  Such acts are called out in the various conventions as illegal acts and are part of the definition of what constitutes and unlawful combatant.

Once they are used for war, they are legitimate targets.  Even the bus full of hemophiliac nuns.  There is no "home base" where from attacks can be made with impunity.



Oh, do bust out maps.google.com and take a gander at Gaza and the various "Refugee Camps" and "UN Compounds."  There is no practical difference between them and Gaza City proper.  The name, "Al-Wherever Refugee Camp" is akin to the name used to identify any particular neighborhood.



George Orwell addressed a similar situation where a civilized society was in existential conflict with a barbarous society bent on destruction:

"You cannot be objective about an aerial torpedo. And the horror we feel of these things has led to this conclusion: if someone drops a bomb on your mother, go and drop two bombs on his mother. The only apparent alternatives are to smash dwelling houses to powder, blow out human entrails and burn holes in children with thermite, or to be enslaved by people who are more ready to do these things than you are yourself; as yet no one has suggested a practicable way out."
----George Orwell, reviewing Arthur Koestler's Spanish Testament for the magazine Time and Tide, Feb. 5, 1938
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

RaspberrySurprise

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2009, 05:42:06 PM »
The funny part is that people think that Hamas actually wants to negotiate with Israel. They don't, they want Israel gone from existence, nothing less. The Charter of Palestine itself promotes killing Jews.
Look, tiny text!

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #130 on: January 15, 2009, 05:47:25 PM »
The funny part is that people think that Hamas actually wants to negotiate with Israel. They don't, they want Israel gone from existence, nothing less. The Charter of Palestine itself promotes killing Jews.

Good point, except they have negotiated with Israel in the past.  And kept their part of the bargain.  But apart from that, they arent to be trusted (except for democratic elections). 
"Idiot!  A long life eating mush is best."
"Make peace, you fools"

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2009, 08:29:58 PM »
I consider giving the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians to be pretty reasonable negotiation.  Other than that, yes, I do agree that Israel should be talking to Hamas, since they are the legitimate government of the Palestinian state.  However, before Israel can negotiate, Hamas MUST drop this suicidal vendetta against Israel.  What use is negotiation when only one side is giving concessions? 

In the world of science, there is physics.  Everything else is stamp collecting.  -Ernest Rutherford

makattak

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #132 on: January 16, 2009, 09:12:18 AM »
I consider giving the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians to be pretty reasonable negotiation.  Other than that, yes, I do agree that Israel should be talking to Hamas, since they are the legitimate government of the Palestinian state.  However, before Israel can negotiate, Hamas MUST drop this suicidal vendetta against Israel.  What use is negotiation when only one side is giving concessions? 



It's simple.

In exchange for Israel putting itself in a very vulnerable position by giving up all the land they won when they were defending themselves from aggressive neighbors AND letting a hostile populace from a failed state come and work in their country, the Gazans promise they will stop killing Jews.


And they really really mean it this time.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #133 on: January 16, 2009, 09:47:19 AM »
It's simple.

In exchange for Israel putting itself in a very vulnerable position by giving up all the land they won when they were defending themselves from aggressive neighbors AND letting a hostile populace from a failed state come and work in their country, the Gazans promise they will stop killing Jews.


And they really really mean it this time.

You do know how they got hold of Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank, right? 
"Idiot!  A long life eating mush is best."
"Make peace, you fools"

Seenterman

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #134 on: January 16, 2009, 10:02:12 AM »
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In exchange for Israel putting itself in a very vulnerable position by giving up all the land they won when they were defending themselves from aggressive neighbors

LoL I knew that Micro was probably the only one on here you knew Isreal's history. You fail at history.

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If the costs of this war are too high, why don't the Gazans STOP FIRING MISSILES INTO ISRAEL?

And you obviously cant form the distinction between Plaestinians and Hamas supporters or else this wouldnt even be in your post.

makattak

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #135 on: January 16, 2009, 10:09:09 AM »
You do know how they got hold of Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank, right? 

Six Day War.

Next question?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #136 on: January 16, 2009, 10:14:56 AM »
Six Day War.

Next question?

Which was started by?
"Idiot!  A long life eating mush is best."
"Make peace, you fools"

makattak

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #137 on: January 16, 2009, 10:18:33 AM »
Which was started by?

Ah yes, it's all Israel's fault because they didn't wait until the forces amassing at their borders actually crossed into Israel.

Just like, if you get attacked, you have to wait until the knife weilding guy who says he's going to kill you actually gets a chance to stab you before you shoot him.

Otherwise, it's just not proper.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #138 on: January 16, 2009, 10:43:29 AM »
Ah yes, it's all Israel's fault because they didn't wait until the forces amassing at their borders actually crossed into Israel.

Just like, if you get attacked, you have to wait until the knife weilding guy who says he's going to kill you actually gets a chance to stab you before you shoot him.

Otherwise, it's just not proper.

What a shame your own Government (in the shape of LBJ, and Dean Rusk), most of the participants and probably reality itself disagrees with your analysis.  Its not self-defence if you let your ally get the enemy to back down, and then attack him.
"Idiot!  A long life eating mush is best."
"Make peace, you fools"

Manedwolf

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #139 on: January 16, 2009, 10:51:25 AM »
What a shame your own Government (in the shape of LBJ, and Dean Rusk), most of the participants and probably reality itself disagrees with your analysis.  Its not self-defence if you let your ally get the enemy to back down, and then attack him.

If someone shoots at you, "retreats" in the form of running behind cover, then reloads and shoots at you again, and then keeps doing that over and over, you wouldn't shoot back?

Victorious armies followed the enemy and destroyed them, they didn't let them regroup and come at them again. You've never read Sun Tzu, that's for sure.

And even Hamas said that a "cease fire" just means that Israel would back out, but not that they'd stop firing rockets at Israel. That's absolutely retarded, and shows the mentality Israel has to deal with.

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #140 on: January 16, 2009, 11:14:46 AM »
If someone shoots at you, "retreats" in the form of running behind cover, then reloads and shoots at you again, and then keeps doing that over and over, you wouldn't shoot back?

Victorious armies followed the enemy and destroyed them, they didn't let them regroup and come at them again. You've never read Sun Tzu, that's for sure.

And even Hamas said that a "cease fire" just means that Israel would back out, but not that they'd stop firing rockets at Israel. That's absolutely retarded, and shows the mentality Israel has to deal with.

They hadnt shot at them.  We are talking about 1967.
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roo_ster

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #141 on: January 16, 2009, 11:50:00 AM »
They hadnt shot at them.  We are talking about 1967.

If you declare war on someone, you do take the risk that the object of the declaration takes you seriously. 

FTR, the countries that made war on Israel in 1948 were still in a state of war in 1967.  If they didn't want war, they should have sued for peace and not massed their armies on Israel's borders instead of waiting until the late 1970s (Egypt) and the 1990s (Jordan).  Oddly enough, since Egypt & Jordan have rescinded their declarations of war and not massed troops on Israel's border, the level of conflict between them has not been worthy of note.

Don't want a war?  Not declaring one is the first step...
Regards,

roo_ster

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #142 on: January 16, 2009, 12:36:20 PM »
If you declare war on someone, you do take the risk that the object of the declaration takes you seriously. 

FTR, the countries that made war on Israel in 1948 were still in a state of war in 1967.  If they didn't want war, they should have sued for peace and not massed their armies on Israel's borders instead of waiting until the late 1970s (Egypt) and the 1990s (Jordan).  Oddly enough, since Egypt & Jordan have rescinded their declarations of war and not massed troops on Israel's border, the level of conflict between them has not been worthy of note.

Don't want a war?  Not declaring one is the first step...
No kidding.  If you say you're going to attack, and then you act like you're going to attack, people will rightly assume that you're going to attack.  Don't be surprised when they react accordingly.

But of course aggressive action is only wrong when Israel does it.  When Arabs act aggressively it's entirely justified.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 12:39:49 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #143 on: January 17, 2009, 01:52:03 AM »
If you declare war on someone, you do take the risk that the object of the declaration takes you seriously. 

FTR, the countries that made war on Israel in 1948 were still in a state of war in 1967.  If they didn't want war, they should have sued for peace and not massed their armies on Israel's borders instead of waiting until the late 1970s (Egypt) and the 1990s (Jordan).  Oddly enough, since Egypt & Jordan have rescinded their declarations of war and not massed troops on Israel's border, the level of conflict between them has not been worthy of note.

Don't want a war?  Not declaring one is the first step...

No, there had been a ceasefire in place since 1949 (excepting the other time Israel "defended itself" during Suez) that had largely been held by all sides.  In 1967 Egypt's buildup on its borders was paralleled by Israeli buildup on its borders.  The US had - with Soviet assistance - managed to get Egypt to back down, something that the Israelis did not believe.  The end result was the war that, after 1948, has led us to this disaster.

 
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De Selby

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #144 on: January 17, 2009, 02:01:43 AM »
If you declare war on someone, you do take the risk that the object of the declaration takes you seriously. 

FTR, the countries that made war on Israel in 1948 were still in a state of war in 1967.  If they didn't want war, they should have sued for peace and not massed their armies on Israel's borders instead of waiting until the late 1970s (Egypt) and the 1990s (Jordan).  Oddly enough, since Egypt & Jordan have rescinded their declarations of war and not massed troops on Israel's border, the level of conflict between them has not been worthy of note.

Don't want a war?  Not declaring one is the first step...

You are focusing on elements of the timeline that don't explain the situation properly.

The 1948, 56, and 67 wars were lopsided from the beginning-the Arabs had no chance, and except for 67, were totally outnumbered, out-armed, and outclassed before the war even began.  Hence, Israel did not even bother to discuss terms for peace with them; what would they offer in return that Israel couldn't just take anyway?

Egypt has peace with Israel directly as a result of its nearly destroying in Israel in 1973.  Once Egypt became too dangerous to gamble on in the future, Israel caved and gave it everything it wanted.

Jordan was rewarded for its participation against Syria and its longstanding efforts to destroy the Palestinian leadership with favorable terms for peace.  That is why Jordan has peace with Israel; it always wanted it anyway, and has mostly been helping Israel throughout the conflict.

The history of the peace treaties shows that only two factors will lead to peace with Israel amongst its neighbors: either 1) A demonstrated capacity to put Israel's existence in jeopardy or 2) A record of assisting Israel in intelligence and paramilitary operations against Palestinians.

No country that is not either under category one, or category two, has ever even been close to peace with Israel.   The foreign policy of Israel reflects an unwillingness to quibble over "rights" and "morals"; it considers only the available military force and the value of military assistance.

The Palestinians are failing to achieve peace with Israel simply because their rockets and armies were not as big as the Egyptian ones in 1973; they could disarm tomorrow and they'd just be treated exactly as they were between 67 and 88 (when they were mostly disarmed and nonviolent anyway).
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roo_ster

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #145 on: January 17, 2009, 02:33:23 AM »
No, there had been a ceasefire in place since 1949 (excepting the other time Israel "defended itself" during Suez) that had largely been held by all sides.  In 1967 Egypt's buildup on its borders was paralleled by Israeli buildup on its borders.  The US had - with Soviet assistance - managed to get Egypt to back down, something that the Israelis did not believe.  The end result was the war that, after 1948, has led us to this disaster.

You do know that an armistice or a ceasefire does not necessarily end a war, don't you?  It just stops it for a while, usually to begin at a later date.  N Korea and the USA are still at war, FTR.  If the Norks start slinging arty over the DMZ, I do hope we do something about it other than drink champagne with the Nork dictator.

Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi, & Yemen were all at war with Israel from 1948 on.  In 1967, they were all still at war with Israel.  If they didn't want what Israel could dish out, they could have avoided it by rescinding their declarations of war.  Peace treaties have only been inked with Egypt & Jordan (1979 & 1994). 

Oh, this backing down by the Arab dictators...was that before or after Egypt expelled the UNEF observers on 19MAY?  Before or after Egypt blockaded the Straits of Tiran on 22MAY? Was it before or after Egypt & Jordan made a pact to war on Israel on 30MAY?  Where in time in relation to the war pact between Egypt, Syria, & Iraq, penned on 04JUN?  I assume it was sometime before 05JUN when Israel destroyed Egypt's Air Force.

Looks like this "backing down" must have occurred sometime between 04-05JUN, after the last Arab war pact and before the Israelis struck.

Oddly enough, I read that one of the first bits of escalation was the shelling of Israeli villages by Syrian arty & rockets.  Israel does seem to take that sort of thing poorly.

Like I wrote above, the first step to staying out of war is not to declare it in the first place.

Regards,

roo_ster

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roo_ster

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #146 on: January 17, 2009, 03:16:30 AM »
You are focusing on elements of the timeline that don't explain the situation properly.

Always a kidder, aren't you SS? 

Reminds me of a character I saw once on Babylon 5 who made a distinction between "goodfacts" and "truefacts."

The 1948, 56, and 67 wars were lopsided from the beginning-the Arabs had no chance, and except for 67, were totally outnumbered, out-armed, and outclassed before the war even began.  Hence, Israel did not even bother to discuss terms for peace with them; what would they offer in return that Israel couldn't just take anyway?

Uh, that is pretty hilarious, right there.

In truth, the Israelis were armed with a motley collection of Brit, French, US, and even German WWII equipment and a few other systems bought on the arms market. They also had war-captured comblock equipment and would in 1967 & 1973 equip entire formations with captured comblock equipment. 

Know what was the primary vehicle used in the assault up into the Golan Heights in 1967?  WWII-era US-surplus half tracks.  The 1967 Israeli tank force consisted of U.S. M48 Patton tanks, Brit Centurion tanks, and upgraded World War II era Sherman tanks.

The best-equipped force at the time of independence was the Brit-trained Arab Legion.  Lots of good Brit training and good Brit equipment.

In 1967, Nasser had the best comblock export equipment available: T55 tanks in large numbers, in addition to all the other kit necessary for a 20th century mechanized force.  Syria had a similar complement, but not as numerous.

(I once almost bought a WWII Mauser K98 bought up by the Israelis and converted to 7.62NATO)
Here is an image of a receiver of one:
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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De Selby

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #147 on: January 17, 2009, 08:12:45 AM »
Quote
In truth, the Israelis were armed with a motley collection of Brit, French, US, and even German WWII equipment and a few other systems bought on the arms market. They also had war-captured comblock equipment and would in 1967 & 1973 equip entire formations with captured comblock equipment. 

In 48, this "motley collection" put the Arab forces to shame-some of the Arab units were still armed with muzzleloaders, and they were outnumbered and disorganized.  It wasn't even close, and anyone who looked at the relative state of the forces before the war (as America did) could obviously see what the outcome would be.

In 67, the egyptian air force was destroyed on the first day of battle.  After that, it was again no military contest.  The equipment wasn't even near the disparity needed to change the balances after Israel's surprise attack.  Nasser was a moron who believed American promises that Israel would not attack him first.

Stating what the Israeli equipment was is meaningless unless you compare the Arab equipment-add it in to your scenario, and you'll see how ridiculous it is to talk about the outgunned Israelis.  They were far ahead of their Arab counterparts.

1973 was a different story-that's why Israel has peace with Egypt; because Egypt of 1973 very well could have destroyed Israel, and proved it.  Hence, even though Sadat was a Nazi (I mean that literally-he was a fascist politically and an anti-semite who loved the Nazis) and Mubarak is right up his alley, Israel made peace with Egypt. 

That is proof positive that "democracy" or "western civilization" or any other factor has absolutely zero to do with peace between Israel and its neighbors; the only proven factor aside from assisting Israel in killing Palestinian leadership (that's Jordan's angle) is a demonstrated threat to the existence of the state.  Achieve that level of military sophistication, and you'll have a peace treaty in short order.  Otherwise, you're in the shoes of the Lebanese and Palestinians.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #148 on: January 17, 2009, 03:00:14 PM »
Y'all can argue who was better armed till the cows come home.  Ultimately it doesn't matter who had what weapons.

We can also argue who started it till the cows come home.  That doesn't matter much either.  What matters is that it was started, and both sides felt they had legitimate grievances.

The same is true of the current conflict.  We can argue who started it, but both sides are now in it, and both sides think they have legitimate grievances.

What matters now is that they're in a war.  So what now?  Call another cease fire so that the mess can fester for a few months before flaring to life again?  That just guarantees a future of never ending death and destruction and instability for both sides.

Seems to me that both sides should go all out and try to defeat their enemies as best they can.  Seems to me that they should both do their best to secure victory on their terms.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 03:06:05 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Phyphor

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #149 on: January 17, 2009, 06:10:45 PM »
Perhaps they should think of that figure the next time they think lobbing a few rockets over is a good idea?

Not only is it wrong, it's a war they should know damn well they can't win.

The problem is the Palis aren't some monolithic government entity.  The hamas pricks don't care about civilian casualties, as they can just use that for their propaganda.  Every woman or child that gets killed is just another bad thing they can show the media, and use to make Isreal look bad.  They'll say crap like "ISREAL KILLED THESE KIDS!" but they won't say "We did have a katyusha rocket launcher truck parked right next door to the school/madrassa/nursery/whatever. "

Sure, you can say "then they should do something about Hamas, but what?

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