Author Topic: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]  (Read 161291 times)

De Selby

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #150 on: January 17, 2009, 06:29:44 PM »

Seems to me that both sides should go all out and try to defeat their enemies as best they can.  Seems to me that they should both do their best to secure victory on their terms.

Would you support or sympathize with suicide bombings as a method of "doing their best to secure victory on their terms"?

That's the problem with saying "oh, they should just have it out and then it will be all over."  Actually, it will not be all over-what will happen is that thousands of people will die for no purpose this time, and the embittered populations will simply head for the next round later.  And this is particularly bad policy for the Israelis, because the refrain is true: the Arabs can lose round after round, but the Israelis will only get to lose once.

The most likely result of what's happening now, aside from hundreds of dead children, is that the governments which made peace with Israel will be destabilized and on the path towards toppling (not like they weren't already, but certainly the gaza assault has accelerated the process.)

We're going to wake up one morning to another Iran 1979, and people will be saying then "OMG! We didn't even see it coming." 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #151 on: January 17, 2009, 06:40:14 PM »
We're going to wake up one morning to another Iran 1979, and people will be saying then "OMG! We didn't even see it coming." 

We already have two Iranian proxies: Hezbolla & Hamas.  They managed to sprout up without any Israeli incursion into Gaza.


Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

De Selby

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #152 on: January 17, 2009, 06:41:53 PM »
We already have two Iranian proxies: Hezbolla & Hamas.  They managed to sprout up without any Israeli incursion into Gaza.




They most certainly did not sprout up without an Israeli incursion into their countries.  Unless you believe it was just a coincidence that Hizbullah was founded in 82 (when Israel occupied Beirut) and Hamas in 1988 (when Israel was building settlements for Jews only in Gaza, and using tanks to demolish the old homes)....
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #153 on: January 17, 2009, 06:44:36 PM »
They most certainly did not sprout up without an Israeli incursion into their countries.  Unless you believe it was just a coincidence that Hizbullah was founded in 82 (when Israel occupied Beirut) and Hamas in 1988 (when Israel was building settlements for Jews only in Gaza, and using tanks to demolish the old homes)....
They sprouted up when Iran backed them with cash & equipment.  No Iranian assistance would mean no Hezbollah or Hamas.
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #154 on: January 17, 2009, 06:45:42 PM »
In 48, this "motley collection" put the Arab forces to shame-some of the Arab units were still armed with muzzleloaders, and they were outnumbered and disorganized.  It wasn't even close, and anyone who looked at the relative state of the forces before the war (as America did) could obviously see what the outcome would be.

In 67, the egyptian air force was destroyed on the first day of battle.  After that, it was again no military contest.  The equipment wasn't even near the disparity needed to change the balances after Israel's surprise attack.  Nasser was a moron who believed American promises that Israel would not attack him first.

Stating what the Israeli equipment was is meaningless unless you compare the Arab equipment-add it in to your scenario, and you'll see how ridiculous it is to talk about the outgunned Israelis.  They were far ahead of their Arab counterparts.

If, in 1948, you count each and every adult Jew in Israelas a combatant, yes they had "superior numbers" relative to the invading Arab armies.  That is not a reasonable reading of the facts, though.

The military establishments of the various Arab states were not equipped with muzzle loaders.  That would be local boys looking to shoot up some Jews for fun & profit.

Israeli equipment was piss-poor and they had no professional equivalent to the Arab Legion, a force equipped & trained to Brit standards (to include mech forces) and led by Brit officers in 1948.

In contrast, during the 1948 war, Israel had a grand total of 14 operational M4 Sherman tanks it had salvaged from an Italian junkyard and re-gunned with 75mm Krupp guns, since the original guns had been demilled in anticipation of the tanks being sold for their scrap metal value.

The Sherman and its variants was the backbone of Israeli armor through the 1973 war, when they were destroyed in large numbers by Soviet Sagger ATGMs.

Meanwhile, in 1956 those Shermans squared off vs Egyptian Shermans equipped with a superior French AMX13 turret.  In 1967, Israeli Shermans fought versus Soviet T34, T55, & T54 tanks manned by Egyptians, much superior to the Sherman (which was considered barely adequate for a WWII tank).  On the other side of the country, the Shermans faced US-built M47 Patton tanks.  In 1973, those Shermans face more T54/55 tanks, along with the even more advanced T62 tanks.

The arithmetic for capable combat aircraft was 2:1 against the Israelis at the start of the Six Day War counting only Egyptian aircraft.  Capable defined as contemporary jet fighters & medium bombers. 

Sorry, no reasonable analysis can be made for the superiority in quantity or quality of Israeli equipment over their antagonists' until well after 1973.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

De Selby

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #155 on: January 17, 2009, 06:49:51 PM »
They sprouted up when Iran backed them with cash & equipment.  No Iranian assistance would mean no Hezbollah or Hamas.

Well, with Hamas that's certainly false-it was started with Israeli government funds.  Hamas's connection to Iran is rhetorical, and has only existed since roughly the time of the 06 war.  Hamas is a Muslim Brotherhood organization, fyi...so it should make sense to question any theories out there about Iranian backing.

Hizbullah sprouted up out of Lebanese who turned on Israel following the invasion of 82.

It seems to be a huge stretch to discount the invasions by Israel corresponding exactly to the years these groups were founded, but then to say Iranian cash was the reason they sprang up.


As for the state of Israeli forces in 1948:  There is not a single source from the period which saw anything other than a huge advantage in arms, training, organization, and numbers on the battlefield for the Jewish forces.

I will link you to the Anglo-American statement on the forces, which was accords with every source available on the state of the relative militaries:  http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/angch09.asp
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 06:54:22 PM by shootinstudent »
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #156 on: January 17, 2009, 07:00:23 PM »
i'll never forget my shock at arafats wealth  and where it came from
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MicroBalrog

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #157 on: January 17, 2009, 08:33:08 PM »
A unilateral ceasefire has been declared by Israel. Hamas keeps shooting.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #158 on: January 17, 2009, 09:05:26 PM »
A unilateral ceasefire has been declared by Israel. Hamas keeps shooting.

They already said that's what they'd do. The head of Hamas, a week ago, said that a ceasefire means that Israel would back off, but it didn't mean that Hamas would stop firing rockets.

You can't reason with the obsessively insane.

MicroBalrog

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #159 on: January 17, 2009, 09:10:02 PM »
Note Hamas broke the ceasefire first.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #160 on: January 17, 2009, 09:13:01 PM »
Note Hamas broke the ceasefire first.

Just like they did last month, yes.

You hear "ceasefire". To Hamas, that means "Ha ha, they fell for it! Let's reload and resupply with weapons before resuming firing!"

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #161 on: January 18, 2009, 12:15:00 AM »
Would you support or sympathize with suicide bombings as a method of "doing their best to secure victory on their terms"?

Are you asking if I condone deliberate and indiscriminate murder of innocent civilians?

That's a really dumb question, even coming from a Hamas sympathizer.

MicroBalrog

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #162 on: January 18, 2009, 12:16:02 AM »
And of course, Gilad Shalit remains a prisoner.

Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

roo_ster

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #163 on: January 18, 2009, 01:30:27 AM »
There are some opponents I would not want to surrender to and would rather DIP.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

MicroBalrog

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #164 on: January 18, 2009, 01:59:28 AM »
There are some opponents I would not want to surrender to and would rather DIP.

Don't be too hard on Shalit; the Army here explicitly trains troops to surrender  when no other exit is possible, and besides, he was injured and had his left arm broken. Kind of hard to use the issue rifle to kill yourself when your arm is broken.

He deserves to be brought home. Period.

If we are to survive as a society, we are not to abandoned our troops in enemy hands.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

De Selby

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #165 on: January 18, 2009, 02:15:31 AM »
Are you asking if I condone deliberate and indiscriminate murder of innocent civilians?

That's a really dumb question, even coming from a Hamas sympathizer.


Okay, so if you don't condone "having it out all the way" or whatever language you used, but actually condone restraints, how do you propose that either side will end up forcing its terms on the other side? 

I'm re-reading what you said, and that sure looks like a plug for total war. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #166 on: January 18, 2009, 02:17:52 AM »
They already said that's what they'd do. The head of Hamas, a week ago, said that a ceasefire means that Israel would back off, but it didn't mean that Hamas would stop firing rockets.

You can't reason with the obsessively insane.

And you cannot declare a ceasefire unilaterally and then cry foul when the other side - who after all was not a party to any agreement about it - doesnt adhere to ceasing fire.  
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Manedwolf

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #167 on: January 18, 2009, 02:20:35 AM »
Don't be too hard on Shalit; the Army here explicitly trains troops to surrender  when no other exit is possible, and besides, he was injured and had his left arm broken. Kind of hard to use the issue rifle to kill yourself when your arm is broken.

He deserves to be brought home. Period.

If we are to survive as a society, we are not to abandoned our troops in enemy hands.

I would just hope he's still alive. =(

De Selby

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #168 on: January 18, 2009, 02:26:49 AM »
Let's see, at the end of the war:

1. More than a thousand people dead, likely half civilians

2. The poorest people in the region have no infrastructure

3.  Hamas is still capable of firing rockets and firing rockets

4. Hamas still exists, and is not obviously weakened in any material way

5. Gilad Shalit is still captive.

So what was the point of all this destruction again? What did it accomplish, for anybody?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MicroBalrog

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #169 on: January 18, 2009, 02:49:10 AM »
Clearly, upon your argument, we should stay there until Gilad Shalit is returned, the firing of the rockets starts, and Hamas is removed from power. I'm all for it.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #170 on: January 18, 2009, 03:11:19 AM »
Clearly, upon your argument, we should stay there until Gilad Shalit is returned, the firing of the rockets starts, and Hamas is removed from power. I'm all for it.

Quote
JERUSALEM (CNN)  -- Militants fired four rockets into southern Israel and exchanged gunfire with troops in northern Gaza Sunday, hours after Israel declared a unilateral cease-fire in the Gaza Strip, an Israeli spokesman said.

The Qassam rockets were fired into Sderot at 9 a.m. -- seven hours after Israel's cease-fire went into effect. The rockets did not injure anyone, the spokesman said.

Dude. You need an APC or something instead of a car.

MicroBalrog

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #171 on: January 18, 2009, 03:14:05 AM »
I don't have a car. Driving lessons here are more expensive than a second-hand car is in America.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

lupinus

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #172 on: January 18, 2009, 07:49:10 AM »
Quote
And you cannot declare a ceasefire unilaterally and then cry foul when the other side - who after all was not a party to any agreement about it - doesnt adhere to ceasing fire. 
So you agree ten.  Hammas wants no part of a cease fire?
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #173 on: January 18, 2009, 08:32:07 AM »
Let's see, at the end of the war:

1. More than a thousand people dead, likely half civilians

2. The poorest people in the region have no infrastructure

3.  Hamas is still capable of firing rockets and firing rockets

4. Hamas still exists, and is not obviously weakened in any material way

5. Gilad Shalit is still captive.

So what was the point of all this destruction again? What did it accomplish, for anybody?

Its a shame the Israelis dont have a carrier for Olmert to heroically backseat onto and proclaim "Mission Accomplished!".

Quote from: Lupinus
So you agree ten.  Hammas wants no part of a cease fire?

They have just announced one:  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/18/israel-gaza-ceasefire-fragile

As for this, I would hope that the insanity of trying to deal with the situation by pretending one of the main players on the ground do not exist would stop after this disaster, though the developments since the ceasefire do not give me any confidence that will happen. 
"Idiot!  A long life eating mush is best."
"Make peace, you fools"

roo_ster

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #174 on: January 18, 2009, 12:55:22 PM »
Don't be too hard on Shalit; the Army here explicitly trains troops to surrender  when no other exit is possible, and besides, he was injured and had his left arm broken. Kind of hard to use the issue rifle to kill yourself when your arm is broken.

He deserves to be brought home. Period.

If we are to survive as a society, we are not to abandoned our troops in enemy hands.

I was not criticizing Shalit, just making an observation.  For all the mewling about US treatment of unlawful combatants, there is little attention paid to the vile treatment of prisoners by militant Islam.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton