Author Topic: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]  (Read 161321 times)

De Selby

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #225 on: January 20, 2009, 04:13:42 AM »
You might have a point if allied bombers had anywhere near the accuracy of a Hamas suicide bomber, and if they had used that accuracy to kill as many civilians as they possibly could while avoiding military targets.

The allies couldn't pick and choose which building to destroy, or even which city block.  They surely wanted such accuracy, and they went to great lengths to try to acquire it.  If they had succeeded, there is no doubt that they would have used the accuracy to target military facilities and leave the civilians alone.  It goes back to the quote from the allied bombing campaign commander, "For lack of a scalpel we had to use a bludgeon." 


Yeah, except the allies recognised the practice as a war crime.  They could most certainly pick, say, a few blocks over an entire city.

Your theory here in any case faces the same problem: If Hamas makes a rocket that isn't that accurate, and then gets 20,000 of them, does that make Hamas rocket fire justifiable as a means of wiping out whole cities?

I guess you don't think the rocket fire is a war crime?  Oh wait...I'm sure that you do, and there goes your whole theory.
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agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #226 on: January 20, 2009, 08:59:29 AM »
Yeah, except the allies recognised the practice as a war crime.  They could most certainly pick, say, a few blocks over an entire city.

This is incorrect.  There were some units that could practice targetted attacks (usually after becoming really familiar with their target) but the vast majority of both the USAAF and (especially, given that they bombed at night) the RAF were nowhere near that accurate - which is why bombing even late in the war was often scattered over a wide area (as was the case with Dresden).
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makattak

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #227 on: January 20, 2009, 10:55:29 AM »
Yeah, except the allies recognised the practice as a war crime.  They could most certainly pick, say, a few blocks over an entire city.

Your theory here in any case faces the same problem: If Hamas makes a rocket that isn't that accurate, and then gets 20,000 of them, does that make Hamas rocket fire justifiable as a means of wiping out whole cities?

I guess you don't think the rocket fire is a war crime?  Oh wait...I'm sure that you do, and there goes your whole theory.

For my part, I never thought the rocket fire was a war crime, but an act of war.

Suicide bombings are war crimes as well as acts of war.

I have no problem if Gaza wants to make war on Israel. (Other than war being a bad thing). It seems the world opinion has no problem with this as well.

They only have problems when Israel makes war back. That's blatant hypocrisy.

If the Gazans don't want war, they should stop making war.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #228 on: January 20, 2009, 11:25:43 AM »
Yeah, except the allies recognised the practice as a war crime.  They could most certainly pick, say, a few blocks over an entire city.

Your theory here in any case faces the same problem: If Hamas makes a rocket that isn't that accurate, and then gets 20,000 of them, does that make Hamas rocket fire justifiable as a means of wiping out whole cities?

I guess you don't think the rocket fire is a war crime?  Oh wait...I'm sure that you do, and there goes your whole theory.
If Hamas does their level best to make their rockets accurate, and if they use them to attack military targets, then I'd be willing to accept the practice, even if they occasionally missed and hit civilians.  It would certainly be an act of war, as mak says, but not a war crime.

My perception of Hamas is that they're targeting civilians only and trying to avoid military targets.  Perhaps Micro can speak more to that, but the areas the rockets are aimed at don't seem to have an redeeming military value whatsoever. 

It rapidly becomes clear that the goal of Hamas' rocket fire isn't to wage war, but to try to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible.  I could be wrong about that, but that's how it appears.  That isn't war, that's attempted genocide.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 05:39:57 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #229 on: January 20, 2009, 12:40:24 PM »
If Hamas does their level best to make their rockets accurate, and if they use them to attack military targets, then I'd be willing to accept the practice, even if they occasionally missed and hit civilians.  It would certainly be an act of war, as mak says, but not a war crime.

My perception of Hamas is that they're targeting civilians only and trying to avoid military targets.  Perhaps Micro can speak more to that, but the areas the rockets are aimed at don't seem to have an redeeming military value whatsoever. 

It rapidly becomes clear that the goal of Hamas' rocket fire isn't to wage war, but to try to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible.  I could be wrong about that, but that's how it appears.  If so, that isn't war, that's genocide.

That is somewhat circular logic.  Hamas cannot improve their rockets nor can they get more accurate ones because of the blockade, and the rockets are totally unable to be targetted in a manner to differentiate between military and civilian targets.  Are you suggesting that Hamas be provided with more accurate weaponry?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #230 on: January 20, 2009, 03:12:55 PM »
"It rapidly becomes clear that the goal of Hamas' rocket fire isn't to wage war, but to try to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible.  I could be wrong about that, but that's how it appears.  If so, that isn't war, that's genocide."

isn't genocide trying to wipe the other guy out?    i think hamas is trying to follow the sucessful  ira model. force the other guy to negotiate more on your terms inorder to end the harassment and unhappyness of the general public.  takes very few folks to bring a bigger force to the table. that phone call after they just missed thatcher with the bomb plastered in the wall is classic
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #231 on: January 20, 2009, 05:38:15 PM »
That is somewhat circular logic.  Hamas cannot improve their rockets nor can they get more accurate ones because of the blockade, and the rockets are totally unable to be targetted in a manner to differentiate between military and civilian targets.  Are you suggesting that Hamas be provided with more accurate weaponry?
How is that circular?  All I'm saying is that Hamas should do their level best to go after military targets rather than civilians.  By all appearances they're doing the exact opposite, trying to hit the civilians while ignoring the military.

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #232 on: January 20, 2009, 06:31:09 PM »
How is that circular?  All I'm saying is that Hamas should do their level best to go after military targets rather than civilians.  By all appearances they're doing the exact opposite, trying to hit the civilians while ignoring the military.

They have been - the Israeli casualties during the fighting were 13, of which 10 were soldiers (4 were killed by the IDF), and they have historically tried to go after the IDF as the capture of Shalit and numerous other incidents have demonstrated.  The rocket fire, as has been said, really lacks the capacity to distinguish between military and civilian because of the crudeness of the weapon.
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Manedwolf

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #233 on: January 20, 2009, 06:32:36 PM »
They have been - the Israeli casualties during the fighting were 13, of which 10 were soldiers (4 were killed by the IDF), and they have historically tried to go after the IDF as the capture of Shalit and numerous other incidents have demonstrated.  The rocket fire, as has been said, really lacks the capacity to distinguish between military and civilian because of the crudeness of the weapon.

And the suicide bombers, I suppose they hadn't any guidance system, either.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #234 on: January 20, 2009, 06:34:31 PM »
They have been - the Israeli casualties during the fighting were 13, of which 10 were soldiers (4 were killed by the IDF), and they have historically tried to go after the IDF as the capture of Shalit and numerous other incidents have demonstrated.  The rocket fire, as has been said, really lacks the capacity to distinguish between military and civilian because of the crudeness of the weapon.
My understanding is that the Israeli military casualties have been due to close quarters small arms fire, not the rockets.  I could be wrong, bit I'm still convinced that Hamas havs been doing their best to kill civilians, not spare them, with their rockets.

And there remains the issue of the suicide bombs...

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #235 on: January 20, 2009, 06:48:42 PM »
And the suicide bombers, I suppose they hadn't any guidance system, either.

As explained earlier, its a lot easier to get into a pizza parlour than it is a barracks. 

Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
My understanding is that the Israeli military casualties have been due to close quarters small arms fire, not the rockets.  I could be wrong, bit I'm still convinced that Hamas havs been doing their best to kill civilians, not spare them, with their rockets.

And there remains the issue of the suicide bombs...

Sorry, my reply was meant to show that they have fought the IDF, and not exclusively gone after civilians.  As for the rockets themselves, remember that is their only method of attacking Israel on a strategic level (the rockets themselves are not strategic, but the Israeli response has made them so).
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MicroBalrog

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #236 on: January 20, 2009, 07:13:42 PM »
Quote
As explained earlier, its a lot easier to get into a pizza parlour than it is a barracks. 

Excuse me as I laugh madly.

There are so many ways a suicide bomber could ]easily attack IDF troops because of the way the Army functions - and HAS to function - it's not even funny.

Not sure it would be responsible for me to discuss the details of such a technique here.
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Manedwolf

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #237 on: January 20, 2009, 07:53:27 PM »
As explained earlier, its a lot easier to get into a pizza parlour than it is a barracks. 

Remember that when they start doing it in the UK. Since you're so excusing of that.

I'd show the picture of a blown-up cafe with a blood-covered baby stroller right next to where the bomber blew themselves up, but you'd probably make an excuse for that, too.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #238 on: January 20, 2009, 07:56:56 PM »
psst! the uk has some experience  they mortared downing street . missed thatcher by minutes at that hotel with a bomb plastered in plasce more than a month earlier. asnd quite a few smaller bombs from the ira
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Manedwolf

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #239 on: January 20, 2009, 08:03:47 PM »
psst! the uk has some experience  they mortared downing street . missed thatcher by minutes at that hotel with a bomb plastered in plasce more than a month earlier. asnd quite a few smaller bombs from the ira

Yes, I am quite aware of the IRA's history, thank you. I'm not sure what your point is.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #240 on: January 20, 2009, 08:42:39 PM »

Sorry, my reply was meant to show that they have fought the IDF, and not exclusively gone after civilians.  As for the rockets themselves, remember that is their only method of attacking Israel on a strategic level (the rockets themselves are not strategic, but the Israeli response has made them so).
Maybe I should spell it out.  The circumstances of the deaths (close quarters, small arms) and the circumstances of the war indicate that Israel lost a few soldiers int he process of attacking Hamas in Gaza.  It does not mean that Hamas attacked sIraeli military targets.

Let's be direct about it.  Can you name any offensive move Hamas has made, any attack at all, except to fire rockets at civilians?

As for strategy, how has it worked for Hamas so far?  It got them invaded and overrun and defeated.  It got probably hundreds of their own civilians killed in the crossfire.  Unless that was their goal, it's fair to say it's been a wretched strategy.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 08:52:29 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #241 on: January 20, 2009, 09:02:19 PM »
Remember that when they start doing it in the UK. Since you're so excusing of that.

I'd show the picture of a blown-up cafe with a blood-covered baby stroller right next to where the bomber blew themselves up, but you'd probably make an excuse for that, too.

We have had suicide bombings, as well as "regular" terrorism.  Ironically enough, both types of terrorists tend to go for the easier target - as the citizens of Warrington and Omagh found to their cost.  To point this out is not excusing it.

Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
Let's be direct about it.  Can you name any offensive move Hamas has made, any attack at all, except to fire rockets at civilians?

Yes.  The attack on Shalit's unit. 

Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
As for strategy, how has it worked for Hamas so far?  It got them invaded and overrun and defeated.  It got probably hundreds of their own civilians killed in the crossfire.  Unless that was their goal, it's fair to say it's been a wretched strategy.

Defeated?  Last I looked they were still in control of the Gaza Strip, still able to fire rockets and will probably achieve more of their aims in the forthcoming peace than the Israelis will.  An odd defeat that. 
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #242 on: January 20, 2009, 09:10:11 PM »

Yes.  The attack on Shalit's unit. 

Ok, that's certainly true. There'sf one instance where Hamas attacked the Israeli military rather than civilians.


Defeated?  Last I looked they were still in control of the Gaza Strip, still able to fire rockets and will probably achieve more of their aims in the forthcoming peace than the Israelis will.  An odd defeat that. 
I doubt Hamas has anywhere near the same ability to launch rockets as they did a month ago.  They are indeed still in control of Gaza, but that's not victory, it's merely survival.  Future concessions in peace negotiations?  We'll just have to wait and see.  Personally, I don't think launching thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians is going to make Israel any more charitable towards Hamas.

De Selby

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #243 on: January 21, 2009, 02:26:23 AM »
Ok, that's certainly true. There'sf one instance where Hamas attacked the Israeli military rather than civilians.
I doubt Hamas has anywhere near the same ability to launch rockets as they did a month ago.  They are indeed still in control of Gaza, but that's not victory, it's merely survival.  Future concessions in peace negotiations?  We'll just have to wait and see.  Personally, I don't think launching thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians is going to make Israel any more charitable towards Hamas.

If launching rockets at Israel isn't going to make Israel more charitable, why would you believe that killing thousands of people in Gaza is going to make the Palestinians more likely to concede more in future negotiations?

I think it's quite clear that the past 20 years of Israeli policy have done the opposite-neither the Palestinians nor the Arab public around them are any longer willing to consider this state as a normal part of the region. 

The biggest fault in Israeli policy on this that I can see is that they mistake tolerance by Arab governments for progress-the Arab governments aren't going to be there in 20 years, but the resentment over this killing will.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #244 on: January 21, 2009, 05:38:29 AM »
Quote
If launching rockets at Israel isn't going to make Israel more charitable, why would you believe that killing thousands of people in Gaza is going to make the Palestinians more likely to concede more in future negotiations?

The Israeli public by at large (and the current government) doesn't want them to 'concede more'. We've been willing to vacate the West Bank and parts of 'Jerusalem' entirely for ages, and to allow them their independence, as well as to either allow refugees back into the Green Line or to compensate them monetarily. All we want is for them to guarantee to stop shooting the rockets and blowing themselves up. Time and time the issue in negotiations had been that people are unwilling to sign an agreement and say, "here, this is the final agreement, we're satisfied now, the conflict is over."
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agricola

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #245 on: January 21, 2009, 05:53:55 AM »
The Israeli public by at large (and the current government) doesn't want them to 'concede more'. We've been willing to vacate the West Bank and parts of 'Jerusalem' entirely for ages, and to allow them their independence, as well as to either allow refugees back into the Green Line or to compensate them monetarily. All we want is for them to guarantee to stop shooting the rockets and blowing themselves up. Time and time the issue in negotiations had been that people are unwilling to sign an agreement and say, "here, this is the final agreement, we're satisfied now, the conflict is over."

Which leads us to the impasse we have now.  All of the peace deals that have been on offer have not been acceptable to them, and Israel isnt willing to offer a peace deal that would be acceptable.  So the violence continues.
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De Selby

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #246 on: January 21, 2009, 06:28:16 AM »
The Israeli public by at large (and the current government) doesn't want them to 'concede more'. We've been willing to vacate the West Bank and parts of 'Jerusalem' entirely for ages, and to allow them their independence, as well as to either allow refugees back into the Green Line or to compensate them monetarily. All we want is for them to guarantee to stop shooting the rockets and blowing themselves up. Time and time the issue in negotiations had been that people are unwilling to sign an agreement and say, "here, this is the final agreement, we're satisfied now, the conflict is over."

When did the Israeli government enact a freeze on settlement building in the West Bank?  That would seem to be a key sign of "willing to abandon the West Bank".

Can you see how the Palestinians might get the idea that your government doesn't actually want out of the west bank when it builds houses for hundreds of thousands of people there, and continues to build them?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #247 on: January 21, 2009, 06:40:51 AM »
Look. The people here, by a wide majority, elected a party that was comitted to leaving the West Bank without negotiation. Every single Israeli political party all the way up to Beitenu agrees the West Bank must be handed over. Only retards like MAFDAL actually argue about that.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: This was uncomfortably close [A rocket fell a block away from me]
« Reply #249 on: January 21, 2009, 08:11:28 AM »
Ceasefire broken

I can't wait to see how Israel is at fault for this.

Quote
Shaky ceasefire in Gaza: Palestinian terrorists fired eight mortar shells from the central Gaza Strip Tuesday, the army said. However, it appears all shells landed in Palestinian areas, possibly due to a malfunction.
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