Author Topic: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad? (Read 37662 times)

Beagle · « **Reply #50 on:** January 27, 2009, 11:27:51 PM »

Thanks!

FWIW, I don't mean to seem rude. I simply believe that supporting capital punishment is a very serious position to take, and one should undertake a very serious study of it before advocating it. If you have and still hold the same position, then more power to you.

You'll just have to learn to live with being wrong.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #51 on:** January 27, 2009, 11:30:44 PM »

there are several texas cases that might not pass the sniff teat and i believe one in fla

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #52 on:** January 27, 2009, 11:37:15 PM »

the most damning thing is when the state refuses to allow dna testing or like that texas case (not capital) where they alloweed the defense to run dna it exonerated the guy they didn't like that so they ran their own test which exonerated the guy they then changed their version of the crime to "he killed her but someone else had sex with her" eventually he was pardoned by bush 19 years after they locked him up

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #53 on:** January 27, 2009, 11:38:33 PM »

Quote from: Beagle on January 27, 2009, 11:27:51 PM

I simply believe that supporting capital punishment is a very serious position to take, and one should undertake a very serious study of it before advocating it.

And to oppose it is just as serious.

Yes, of course some innocents will be executed. That is regrettable. But let us not oppose justice in 90 percent of cases, just to uphold justice in 10 percent.

Beagle · « **Reply #54 on:** January 27, 2009, 11:42:54 PM »

Quote

And to oppose it is just as serious.

Indeed. Changing from a pro-capital punishment stance to an anti-capital punishment stance was a decade long experience for me.

Quote

But let us not oppose justice in 90 percent of cases, just to uphold justice in 10 percent.

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" ~ William Blackstone.

Headless Thompson Gunner · « **Reply #55 on:** January 28, 2009, 12:06:51 AM »

Quote from: Mr. Tactical pants on January 27, 2009, 11:38:33 PM

And to oppose it is just as serious.

Yes, of course some innocents will be executed. That is regrettable. But let us not oppose justice in 90 percent of cases, just to uphold justice in 10 percent.

Why must some innocents be executed?

I get that it is possible in theory. I don't believe that it happens in practice. Not in recent times. Perhaps it used to happen occasionally, decades ago. But in recent years? I just don't buy it.

If it does happen, it is certainly much, much less than 10%. It can't be more than one in many thousands, or something on that order.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #56 on:** January 28, 2009, 12:16:11 AM »

If it does happen, it is certainly much, much less than 10%.

small consolation to that percentage and their wives children and other family nto say nothin of the fact we leave the real killer on the loose

whats an acceptable number to kill by mistake? in the name of justice

Beagle · « **Reply #57 on:** January 28, 2009, 12:28:26 AM »

Quote

whats an acceptable number to kill by mistake? in the name of justice

The $64,000 question.

Headless Thompson Gunner · « **Reply #58 on:** January 28, 2009, 12:50:58 AM »

Quote from: cassandra and sara's daddy on January 28, 2009, 12:16:11 AM

If it does happen, it is certainly much, much less than 10%.

small consolation to that percentage and their wives children and other family nto say nothin of the fact we leave the real killer on the loose

whats an acceptable number to kill by mistake? in the name of justice

If the chance of making a mistake is one in many thousands, and we're only executing a couple dozen a year, then for all practical purposes it just doesn't matter. There won't be anyone executed by mistake.

It's a practical problem we deal with in engineering all the time. As an occurrence rate decreases, it will eventually reach a level where it will be zero for all practical purposes. It may not be absolutely zero, but the difference between practically zero and actually zero becomes negligible.

As an example, consider that it is possible in theory for an asteroid to destroy the earth tomorrow. There is a nonzero chance of that event occurring. But for all practical purposes we know it just won't happen. There won't be any planet-killing asteroids striking the earth tomorrow.

I think that we're currently at the point where there is no practical chance of executing an innocent man by mistake. Deliberate misuse of the system might still be possible, but that's another matter entirely.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #59 on:** January 28, 2009, 12:54:02 AM »

so lets say is a state found that there were serious flaws in in the convictions of 1/3 the people on its death row that would be problematic to you? or no?

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #60 on:** January 28, 2009, 12:59:09 AM »

how about if after examining the flawed cases they admited to a 4.5 percent oopsie rate? its an oopsie to everyone except the dead guys

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/28

Retired U.S. District Court Judge George N. Leighton, a member of IDPEP's advisory board, said, "Most Illinoisans don't understand the very real risk that we will execute an innocent person. When they know the truth, they overwhelmingly support common-sense reforms like these."

Since 1977, Illinois has freed 13 innocent men from death row. In addition to enacting a moratorium on executions, Governor George H. Ryan appointed a blue-ribbon commission to study the death penalty system in Illinois in 2000.

"The error rate for death sentences in Illinois is 4.5 %," Colfax said. "Informed people would certainly agree that such inaccuracy is intolerable when the stakes are so high. The current debate over the fairness and effectiveness of the death penalty is a unique opportunity for serious, nonpartisan discourse and education regarding reforms to capital punishment."

Headless Thompson Gunner · « **Reply #61 on:** January 28, 2009, 01:48:28 AM »

Sorry, but I don't believe that the odds of convicting and executing someone by mistake is 4.5% these days. Anti-death-penalty activists may claim that it is so, but I rank that right up with the "facts" the Brady Bunch uses to claim handguns are a menace.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #62 on:** January 28, 2009, 05:18:55 AM »

Quote from: Beagle on January 27, 2009, 11:42:54 PM

Indeed. Changing from a pro-capital punishment stance to an anti-capital punishment stance was a decade long experience for me.

So you've learned to live with being wrong? I'll stay on the right side, thanks.

Quote

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" ~ William Blackstone.

As I'm not terribly familiar with Blackstone, perhaps you could tell me what conclusion he drew from this principle? The logical conclusion would seem to be an utmost regard for due process, rather than the denial of justice (opposition to just punishment) which you have embraced. As is common with left-wing points of view (not that I'm calling you left-wing), your position disposes of the baby with the bath-water.

It's early, and I start work at five this morning, so I won't do the math. How does that work out in terms of percentages? Whatever it is, I'm sure we can beat it. In an age of DNA evidence and other forensic tools, and such careful attention to due process, we should more comfortable with the death penalty - not less.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #63 on:** January 28, 2009, 09:01:31 AM »

Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner on January 28, 2009, 01:48:28 AM

Sorry, but I don't believe that the odds of convicting and executing someone by mistake is 4.5% these days. Anti-death-penalty activists may claim that it is so, but I rank that right up with the "facts" the Brady Bunch uses to claim handguns are a menace.

oh not all of em make it to execution but i'm inclined to be discomfited by that large an allowable percentage. the illonois recommendations are pretty decent ones. we live in a world where folks , and particularly some of the lawyers who are in control of the system leave something to be desired. a good example would be the former prosecutor (and by this time retired judge) who when confronted by incontrevertible proof that he put a totally innocent man on death row for more than 25 years replied "heck i convicted lots of folks less guilty than him"

i support capital punishment but our methodology lease something to be desired

do you remember why (aside from political grandstanding) ryan cleared out death row?

makattak · « **Reply #64 on:** January 28, 2009, 09:14:07 AM »

Why is it alright to put someone innocent away for life?

Why is it worse that an innocent person be executed?

In both cases, the problem is not the punishment, but the process. If you do not want innocent people punished, then fix the system.

If we CAN'T fix the system, and if we can't find a better system, why do you think it's better to subject an innocent person to life in prison than the death penalty.

In both cases, we have a miscarriage of justice.

However, leaving a guilty person alive when he deserves death is also a miscarriage of justice.

Why do we pick the circumstance (innocent people in jail and guilty people still alive) where justice is denied the most?

seeker_two · « **Reply #65 on:** January 28, 2009, 09:50:58 AM »

Think of all the things we'd have to ban from our society because that thing could be misused....

...nothing contrived by man is perfect. We have to do the best we can, and the death penalty--in regard to felons who are a danger to society--is the best answer.

Ryan in Maine · « **Reply #66 on:** January 28, 2009, 10:37:27 AM »

The firing squad should be made up of blind dwarfs and the procedure should be the firing squad shouting "MARCO!" and the criminal shouting back "POLO!" until the criminal has been successfully justiced.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #67 on:** January 28, 2009, 10:38:21 AM »

"In both cases, the problem is not the punishment, but the process. If you do not want innocent people punished, then fix the system."

YESSSSS!!!

"...nothing contrived by man is perfect. We have to do the best we can, and the death penalty--in regard to felons who are a danger to society--is the best answer."

but if our current administration of it is the best we can do we should be ashamed and have much to answer for

seeker_two · « **Reply #68 on:** January 28, 2009, 10:41:46 AM »

Quote from: Ryan in Maine on January 28, 2009, 10:37:27 AM

The firing squad should be made up of blind dwarfs and the procedure should be the firing squad shouting "MARCO!" and the criminal shouting back "POLO!" until the criminal has been successfully justiced.

But what if the criminal is a ventriloquist?....

Ryan in Maine · « **Reply #69 on:** January 28, 2009, 11:07:27 AM »

We will simply pass a law making it illegal for ventriloquism to be used during an execution. Problem solved.

seeker_two · « **Reply #70 on:** January 28, 2009, 03:53:49 PM »

Quote from: Ryan in Maine on January 28, 2009, 11:07:27 AM

We will simply pass a law making it illegal for ventriloquism to be used during an execution. Problem solved.

....and the penalty for such a crime would be death by firing squad....

Ryan in Maine · « **Reply #71 on:** January 28, 2009, 04:01:38 PM »

Two firing squads!

Firethorn · « **Reply #72 on:** January 28, 2009, 04:05:33 PM »

Quote from: cassandra and sara's daddy on January 28, 2009, 12:16:11 AM

whats an acceptable number to kill by mistake? in the name of justice

What's an acceptable number of innocents to let rot unjustly in prison? The extra expense of a capital case helps ensure that all aspects are considered; in comparison a LiPwP case doesn't get nearly as much scrutiny.

Not to mention that, compared to a DP case, a LiP has little recourse for appeals and overturnings.

You should consider this, especially when many DP opponents quote the costs of the extra trial measures to say the DP is more expensive.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #73 on:** January 28, 2009, 04:25:34 PM »

i'm a death penalty supporter
i just can't mlose one eye and squinjt through the other and pretend we do a good job

Headless Thompson Gunner · « **Reply #74 on:** January 28, 2009, 05:28:02 PM »

Maybe if you opened both eyes you'd see that we do a pretty darned good job.

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Author Topic: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad? (Read 37662 times)