Re: Illinois: War on Christmas, with a new twist...

[SteveS]

I went to public schools for four years. I know exactly what happens at the schools around here, they have not changed much.

Well, that is good enough for me.  Heck, if I were to sue the "school system," I'd have you as an expert witness.  How did you manage to escape?  If anything, I'd say that, at most, this just proves that your school is crummy.  When did you graduate?  I went to a public high school that graduates about 110 kids a year and one of them that graduated in 1982 eventually ended up as a clerk for Thurgood Marshall. 

As for taxes and such, there aren't statistics on how angry people are over taxes. But given that I've read plenty of nasty letters to the editor over this for a long time now, have seen people protesting on a large scale, making threats to officials, etc., I'd say there's a problem.

I am sure there are stats somewhere, but what do they prove?  How many people can you find that would say they like taxes?  I am sure if you looked hard enough you would find that there are people complaining about any aspect of gov't or any program.  Letters to the editor...protests...threats...I hope you have more than this.  That doesn't prove that most people want to disband the school system.

As to public education, given the growing size of the homeschooling movement, I'd say there are plenty of people who wouldn't mind seeing them gone.

True, but show me where it says that they want public schools gone.  Homeschoolers only account for about 2% of the kids and most of the public (56%) still disapproved of homeschooling in 2001. (http://eric.uoregon.edu/trends_issues/choice/home_schooling.html). 

I don't want to turn this into homeschooling v. other schools, as I support both and know plenty of really smart goods that go to each.

[Joe Demko]

I still stand by what I said. Someone who can't hardly read or do basic math but who can lecture for hours on how evil America is, how we need a big government, etc., is an idiot. It's not as though it is their opinion either, they simply spout what they have been told and can't back up their opinions at all. I see plenty of these people around me. I went to public schools for four years.

So, basically because you think a lot of people are stupid and disagree with them politically, public education must be scrapped?  This carries no more weight now than the first time you said it.

I know people who work at them and see the problems and the sheer wastefulness of teachers.

Specific examples?

As for taxes and such, there aren't statistics on how angry people are over taxes. But given that I've read plenty of nasty letters to the editor over this for a long time now, have seen people protesting on a large scale, making threats to officials, etc., I'd say there's a problem.

How many letters to the editor?  One? Two?  Several every single day?  All from different people or all from the same small group with a personal axe to grind?  Which large scale protests are those?  How large?  Got any newspaper articles or TV spots you can link for me?  Something big like that must certainly have received coverage.

As to public education, given the growing size of the homeschooling movement, I'd say there are plenty of people who wouldn't mind seeing them gone.

I don't think so.  Perhaps you can show a connection between homeschoolers and a desire to dismantle public education, but I doubt it.  There is not necessarily any connection at all between the two.  Since you are citing it to support your position, I leave it to you to demonstrate the connection.

[wooderson]

Someone who can't hardly read or do basic math but who can lecture for hours on how evil America is, how we need a big government, etc., is an idiot.

Someone explain this to me. An illiterate individual who can lecture long and hard about the evils of America? Huh?

[Perd Hapley]

Someone who can't hardly read or do basic math but who can lecture for hours on how evil America is, how we need a big government, etc., is an idiot.

Someone explain this to me. An illiterate individual who can lecture long and hard about the evils of America? Huh?

I just love how poorly-written it is.   

[roo_ster]

Also, every teacher we know who has kids refuses to send them to gooberment schools.  They have a good idea as to the current state of affairs.

What a bunch of hypocrites.  So, basically these teachers are saying 'we suck as teachers and are bad at our jobs.'  I guess I wouldn't send my kids to their schools, either.  I am glad the teachers I know around here don't do that.

Quite a few assumptions on your part, none of which is accurate.

Actually, one is being paid by the school district to get his MA and is being groomed for a principal slot by that same large school district.  His wife has also taught public* school, has her MA, and currently teaches as part of a local home school association.  She could go back to the public school, but gets much more satisfaction hiring out to local home schoolers who pool their money to hire her and others known locally as excellent instructors.  She gets paid some multiple for her time relative to what she would teaching at a public school.  She likes the flexibility, since she has small children of her own to care for and teach.

They recognize the many intractable problems in the public schools and are not willing to have their kids mis-educated and socially engineered by educrats.






* I'll use the word "public" to keep from offending some folks' highly refined sensibilities.

[SteveS]

Quite a few assumptions on your part, none of which is accurate.

Actually, one is being paid by the school district to get his MA and is being groomed for a principal slot by that same large school district.  His wife has also taught public* school, has her MA, and currently teaches as part of a local home school association.  She could go back to the public school, but gets much more satisfaction hiring out to local home schoolers who pool their money to hire her and others known locally as excellent instructors.  She gets paid some multiple for her time relative to what she would teaching at a public school.  She likes the flexibility, since she has small children of her own to care for and teach.

They recognize the many intractable problems in the public schools and are not willing to have their kids mis-educated and socially engineered by educrats.

I still don't believe it is an unfair assumption, though hypocrite may be a strong word.  As a parent, I would be reluctant to send my kid to a school where the teachers wouldn't send their own. 

As it is, we have some really good schools where I live, so I am happy with the choice we have made.  The same can't be said for all schools in my state. 

[Joe Demko]

It seems every time this topic comes up, somebody is saying "The schools where I am/where I went suck, so we need to scrap public education."  If your schools suck, then the problem is your school system, not the school systems of everybody everywhere else.  Instead of pointless ranting for eliminating the system, you could do something actually constructive like change your sucky-ass local schools for the better by attending school board meetings and being an active parent/taxpayer.  Or_Hey!_ you could open a private-for-profit school run the way you think it should be run.  If your ideas are that superior, your success will speak for itself and you'll be rich, too.
Schools are governed mainly by state laws and are run by local school boards.  So if you are entertaining the fantasy that public education is going to be scrapped, you're still looking at scrapping it only in your state at most (and that will never happen). 
It'd be a much more productive use of your time and energy to work on tax reform, if property taxes are that onerous to you.  Demanding the elimination of public education falls neatly in the realm of recreational ranting.  You might find it an enjoyable passtime, but you will accomplish nothing through it.

[roo_ster]

Joe:

Yeah, I have been that route.  I went from a relative vagabond, moving every few years, to a rooted, solid citizen.  Home owner association meetings.  City Council Meetings.  Public School District Meetings.  Private School Board of Trustees...De Toqueveille would have recognized the pattern.

I have no lack of participation in voluntary & involuntary organizations and don't come to my conclusions willy-nilly. 

The government run school system is a travesty best drowned in the bathtub.  It is not reform-able and is the creature of the educrats run for the benefit of the educrats.  I work with local and state leaders to bring about it dissolution.  Baby steps, at times, but every charter school that has less oversight, every voucher system, and every successful property tax revolt is a step in the right direction.

Kids deserve better than the pedagogical equivalent to BATFE/IRS/TSA.

[grislyatoms]

It seems every time this topic comes up, somebody is saying "The schools where I am/where I went suck, so we need to scrap public education."  If your schools suck, then the problem is your school system, not the school systems of everybody everywhere else.  Instead of pointless ranting for eliminating the system, you could do something actually constructive like change your sucky-ass local schools for the better by attending school board meetings and being an active parent/taxpayer.

I couldn't agree more.

My ex-stepdaughter went through the public schools here, and my kiddo is following in her footsteps.

Ex-stepdaughter is a freshman at the College of William and Mary this year. Folks don't get into that school with a crappy K-12 education.