Author Topic: National Health Care-Obama Plan  (Read 78876 times)

slingshot

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National Health Care-Obama Plan
« on: July 15, 2009, 01:47:22 PM »
I keep hearing the press and president talk about all these people who do not have access to health care.  Emergency rooms do not refuse service if you do not have health insurance.

Estimates of 30-40 million people without health care in the US as I recall.  Who really doesn't have heath insurance?  Illegal aliens working for cash... yep, people that can't hold a job, yep.  Self employed persons, some.  A big chunk of the foks that don't have health insurance are younger people who work for small companies which require the employee to pay a portion of their insurance costs.  These people are generally healthy and decline to have the insurance thinking... I'm healthy, nothing will happen to me.  I know folks I worked with who declined paying a portion of their insurance costs and only got health insurance when they hit about 40 years of age, started to have health problems, or got married.  They wanted the $ to blow on cars and other consumer purchases (maybe guns?).  It was only when the employer paid entirely for the health insurance (in lew of raises) that they had insurance like they felt the company owed them the insurance.  What are your thoughts?

I can NOT figure out what exactly is broke with the current system that we need to spend a trillion dollars+ over 10 years for a national health insurance program that will eventually become exclusionary to certain operations, age groups, or folks that fail to tow the line on correcting their bad habits like smoking or excessive drinking.  Sorry, you are going to die, we can't help you because you chose to smoke....

There must be another way to improve health care in the USA.  Perhaps universal major medical plan to cover illness after a certain coverage point when private health insurance plans cap out?  Perhaps some sort of plan to control perscription drug costs? Thoughts?
It shall be as it was in the past... Not with dreams, but with strength and with courage... Shall a nation be molded to last. (The Plainsman, 1936)

Monkeyleg

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2009, 01:50:27 PM »
I've read that roughly half the people who don't have insurance are younger people who don't think they need it. Then there's illegal aliens. By the time you get to the number of people who need health insurance but can't afford it, the number is around 15 million.

We could easily take care of 15 million people without bankrupting the country as Obama wants to do.

Standing Wolf

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2009, 03:58:32 PM »
Quote
There must be another way to improve health care in the USA.

There is: the market. It wasn't government that got us this far, but open markets. Do you think the miracle drugs came from government?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2009, 04:00:20 PM »
There is a free market in health care in the United States?

You tell good ones, SW.
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coppertales

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2009, 04:02:13 PM »
Nobama is formulating this health plan strictly for the folks on welfare and who are illegal aliens to make sure they vote for him next goaround.  Watch, next will be amnesty for all the illegals in this country....chris3

Jamisjockey

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2009, 05:25:14 PM »
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=11378.0

Please review the sticky at the top of the page. 
JD

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taurusowner

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2009, 07:11:49 PM »
I'm 25 and I didn't have health insurance from my 18th birthday until a few months ago.  Why?  Because I didn't feel like paying for it.  I could have, I just didn't want to.  I know I'm not the only one like this. 

grampster

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2009, 07:40:04 PM »
The statists lie every chance they get.  For them, power is more important than truth, which they hardly even believe exists in the first place, anyway.
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FTA84

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2009, 08:22:06 PM »
The problem seems like the dems solution to me.

There are private companies, which, to many of the people, companies are always doing all of the evils.  Now private companies don't just let you join up when you are diagnosed with cancer -- and these people cry "that is so unfair! Evil corporate america!" (here they really mean, that is so 'unequal'.  It is fair for you to choose between driving a new car with no health insurance and driving an old car with health insurance.)  Of course, that gets the heart strings in America going and feeling bad for these people.

Then the next question to be answered is, how do we prevent this from happening? Well, you look at economics.  Economics says you can't just let people with cancer jump on the wagon because then no one would have health insurance and they'd all just wait to jump on the wagon, total bankruptcy.  However, you have all these low risk people sitting around with no health insurance, very low risk, if they paid into the system (or were forced, perhaps?) they would offset all those people with a new car and cancer. And that is it in a nutshell, from each according to his abilities and to each according to his needs.


sanglant

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2009, 08:22:55 PM »
and, the simple truth is(as far as i can find at least[heh just in case :angel: =D]).

NO HOSPITAL CAN TURN AWAY ANYONE!!!

jersey is the only example i can find right now

edit:DOH!!!, ah and for non emergency care, there are non-profit groups that can help. i bet if we(the citizens of these United States) all gave 'em 10 bucks a month there would be more problem. =|
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 08:28:58 PM by sanglant »

Waitone

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2009, 09:24:53 PM »
How 'bout letting the market do it.
--Let consumers buy any kind of policy from anywhere in the US.
--Let consumer buy what ever kind of insurance they want to buy.  Want chiropractor insurance?  Fine!  Just pay for it yourself but don't let the state force insurance companies into providing it by force.
--Use community risk pooling forcing risk assessment to be spread over a larger population.
--Remove tax exemption of healthcare costs from employers.  Make 'em pay taxes on healthcare provided to employees.
--Lower threshold on deductibility from 7.5% of AGI to dollar one.  In other words don't tax healthcare premiums or costs at the individual level.
--Cap pain and suffering awards.
--Make it law that congress can have healthcare no better than Joe and Martha Sixpack,  No gold plated plans if Joe and Martha can't get theirs gold plated.

Above suggestions are off the top of my head in about 5 minutes.  Anyone who knows the system as it is can do much better.

Our healthcare system is in a mess now because of a series of ill-advised decisions made over the last 60 + years.  A lot of the damage can be reverse in fairly short order with a few well place decisions.  It will never happen because control of healthcare is the ultimate control over a population short of wire and bars.  Both parties are responsible and I've seen nothing to indicate either party is thinking along lines that will solve the problem.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2009, 09:32:29 PM »
If I were an American politician, I would promote a very simple scheme:

Make an agreement with European countries – with EUROPEAN countries which have decent medical testing procedures, like France and Britain – that we would honor each other's permits etc. i.e. if a drug has been tested and allowed for use in the European Union, there's no reason not to clear it for use in the US. If the Euros don't agree to do this for some reason (like fearing competition from American drugs) it could still be done unilaterally. This would create savings of hundreds of millions of dollars every year in drug costs. OF COURSE it would not solve all the problems, but it is a useful and simple thing that nobody would really oppose.
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MechAg94

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2009, 11:24:08 PM »
There is a free market in health care in the United States?

You tell good ones, SW.
Which is exactly the problem.  Govt meddling has created the problem, now they want to fix it with more govt meddling. 
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2009, 11:36:01 PM »
I'm 25 and I didn't have health insurance from my 18th birthday until a few months ago.  Why?  Because I didn't feel like paying for it.  I could have, I just didn't want to.  I know I'm not the only one like this. 
I did that for 6 years while I was putting myself through college.  I was young, healthy, and had access to excellent routine and preventative care through my school.  It just plain didn't make sense for me to buy health insurance. 

I suppose if my finances had been unlimited I would have bought it, but they weren't.  I spent my limited money in the ways that would provide the best benefits for me and my life.  That meant buying tuition instead of health care, so that I'd eventually have a good job that pays well.  As a result, now I can afford to buy as much health care as I could possibly want for me and my family.

Boomhauer

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2009, 12:05:25 AM »
Which is exactly the problem.  Govt meddling has created the problem, now they want to fix it with more govt meddling. 

Divorce yourself of the notion that they want to "fix" anything at all, even through the stupidest and most inefficient methods.

"National Health Care", "bailouts", "stimulus", cap and trade. None of it is about helping or fixing anything, even though they hide under that facade. It is about destroying capitalism once and for all and controlling the citizenry, and they seem to be making steady progress. It is only just getting started and look how much damage has been done.

We've hollered loud, sent plenty of communication to our reps, and held protests. None of it has worked- our "representatives" have ignored us and happily passed bills without reading them because they don't care. Or, they'll be against it until it's sweetened with enough pork.

Our only hope is that maybe we can vote them out in the next election. I just hope that the damage is reversible and we have something to save by then.

I'm not holding my breath. I don't think we have enough people that care.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 12:11:59 AM by Avenger29 »
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Standing Wolf

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2009, 11:01:33 AM »
When I got sick as a kid, my mother took me to see the doctor, and wrote a check for the bill on the way out and another at the pharmacy on the way home. When my baby sister needed an operation, my father put off buying his first new car an extra year.

We did, indeed, have a free market in medical care once upon a time. We'll soon have a black market for it. That's one measure of socialist so-called "progress."
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slingshot

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2009, 12:55:36 PM »
Legislators have been trying to find ways to pay for the proposed program.  A tax surcharge seems to be the latest approach.  Yes, tax the rich, because the are in the minority.  Regardless of who pays, it gets paid for and probably by regular folks who work and most already have heath insurance. So they are paying double.  Doesn't seem right at all.  Definitely discrimination.  But then the entire graduated tax system in the US is highly discriminatory.  That is why we need the Fair Tax.  Everyone is treated the same and we won't need the IRS in its current fom.
It shall be as it was in the past... Not with dreams, but with strength and with courage... Shall a nation be molded to last. (The Plainsman, 1936)


Jamisjockey

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2009, 05:29:49 PM »
All we need to understand is that for some people, "Compassion" and "emotion" have outgrown their logic and reason.  We call these people progressives.  They see Government as the vestibule for righting all the world's wrongs.  Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

slingshot

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2009, 11:17:57 AM »
The Census reports between 45-46 million people do not have health insurance.  Of those 10 million are legal aliens; 17 million earn more than 50K per year but opt to not have insurance.  Estimate that between 8-14 million don't have health insurance.  But all have access to health care at emergency rooms in hospitals.

The current House plan stipulates an 8% of salary penalty to employers who do not provide health insurance.  There is a part of the bill that essentially grandfathers private health insurance plans.  BUT, if you change jobs or become self employed, you're required to participate in the government run health plan.  This would eliminate private health insurance for most people within 5-7 years which I believe is about the average time employed with an employer before switching jobs for whatever reason. I hear that the House plan was moved out of committee this morning/last night to debate on the House floor. 

People worry about 2nd Amendment rights.... just look what is being rammed down the throats of American citizens by the Obama Admin and Democrats.  It makes me sick.  You think this could not happen to gun rights with the right impedous?

It shall be as it was in the past... Not with dreams, but with strength and with courage... Shall a nation be molded to last. (The Plainsman, 1936)

Boomhauer

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2009, 11:28:56 AM »
Quote
It makes me sick.  You think this could not happen to gun rights with the right impedous?

Oh, it could easily and quickly happen. Probably will happen sooner or later.

Guns are no "third rail" issue. Hell, there are no "third rail" issues. It's clear that a lot of the legislature has gone rogue, not bothering to read bills, not listening to their constituents. There are still a few politicians up there listening to their constituents, but there aren't near enough.

The real litmus test will be the next election, to see if enough people have waken up and give a damn. I just don't see anything happening to change the status quo.

Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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Fly320s

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2009, 11:36:08 AM »
There is a free market in health care in the United States?
Yes, there is.

You are not required to buy health insurance from your employer's program.  You're not required to buy from a list of approved retailers.  You're not required to buy insurance at all.  In fact, you have the freedom of negotiation the price of the health care service you receive/want with any and all providers.  Obviously, not all providers will/want to haggle with you, but the choice is yours.  Don't like the plan or price that your employer offers?  Don't buy it.  Think you're young enough and healthy enough that you won't need insurance?  Don't buy it.  All you want is coverage for major medical procedures?  Buy only that.

Under Obama's abomination of a plan, you will be required by law to have health insurance.  What kind of crap is that?  Which brings me to my next question: Is it lawful/constitutional to force a person to buy a product/service the he doesn't want?  Why haven't any of the news sources, including Fox, mentioned this at all?
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brimic

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2009, 11:44:14 AM »
Quote
I'm 25 and I didn't have health insurance from my 18th birthday until a few months ago.  Why?  Because I didn't feel like paying for it.  I could have, I just didn't want to.  I know I'm not the only one like this. 

I did roughly the same thing.

Unfortuntely, the people who opt out of insurance are also counted in the numbers of those who "cannot afford insurance."  :rolleyes:
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slingshot

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2009, 11:47:59 AM »
This whole health care bill is about people control and BIG government.  It takes choice out of the equation.  The bill as understand it will eliminate private health insurance because within a short time period the majority will be forced participants of the plan and the remaining people will see their health insurance skyrocket to where it is not a practical option.

Fly320 says it correctly as it now stands... you have a choice.  That is NOW, not if this bill is passed.

Years ago many states made minimal auto insurance coverage compulsory.  Even with the laws, many drop their insurance due to cost.  Enter "uninsured motorist" coverage being added to your auto insurance policy.  The only way for a national health care plan to work is to turn people away from minimal care if they can not pay for the service immediately.  I don't agree with this approach, but it is the only way it works.
It shall be as it was in the past... Not with dreams, but with strength and with courage... Shall a nation be molded to last. (The Plainsman, 1936)

Fly320s

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Re: National Health Care-Obama Plan
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2009, 12:38:09 PM »
"Universal health care is a goal." - Nancy Pelosi.

She just said that a ta live news conference.  I saw it on Fox news.

Great.  :rolleyes:
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