National Health Care-Obama Plan

[Monkeyleg]

Let's see. 12 million is 4% of 300 million. 4% of 2000 hours a year is 80 hours. That means roughly 80 of the average worker's hours each year will go to pay for health insurance for illegals.

Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

[longeyes]

No one on this forum should be surprised.  It has become obvious to anyone but the most naive what the Obama and Democrat agendas consist of. 

I will say this: I have discussed this specific issue with liberals I know and many balk at the idea of illegals getting subsidized health care  For a substantial percentage this, properly presented by the conservative faction, can not only be a deal-breaker but an eye-opener in terms of revealing who "the other side" really is and what they want for America.  I think the word "racist" is going to end up being thrown back in the faces of the accusers.

If the radical Dems push this one too far we are going to witness racial and ethnic convulsion in this country without any doubt.  I'm afraid that the cynics amongst us--and you can count me in that number--expect that that is exactly what is going to transpire.

[seeker_two]

If the radical Dems push this one too far we are going to witness racial and ethnic convulsion in this country without any doubt.  I'm afraid that the cynics amongst us--and you can count me in that number--expect that that is exactly what is going to transpire.

QFT....

[Jamisjockey]

Merged the illegal aliens thread, as its part of the same discussion.

[grampster]

"Representative democracy is mob rule.  Right now, the mob wants free health care."


The Founders feared the factionalism of a pure democracy.  That's why we were given a Republic.  Unfortunately, The Founders never anticipated that factionalism became the two party system and both parties pander to the Mob.  So, we got the Mob  Rule of democracy in spite of what The Founders wanted.

I am ashamed of many Americans at this time.

[Jamisjockey]

Steele comes out swinging (finally  :rolleyes:)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090720/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_overhaul

 

By DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent David Espo, Ap Special Correspondent   – 13 mins ago

WASHINGTON – The chairman of the Republican Party on Monday accused President Barack Obama of conducting "risky experimentation" with his health care proposals, saying they will hurt the economy and force millions to drop their current coverage.

Michael Steele, in remarks at the National Press Club, also said the president, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and key congressional committee chairmen are part of a "cabal" that wants to implement government-run health care.

If it took the RNC and Steele this long to come up with a coherent message against health care....the (R) party is doomed.

[longeyes]

"Risky experimentation" is a gross understatement.  If the GOP won't draw the line and say no way, it forces the people to do that, which, under the circumstances, is for the better.  The Republican Party is hell-bent on being being gracious losers.  The leaders of that Party can afford to be that, the rest of us cannot.

[Monkeyleg]

This is another example of how the anti-freedom forces in our society succeed through incrementalism. Years ago, Hillarycare was rejected outright, and it was a factor in the 1994 Republican revolution.

Now we've reached a point where nationalized health care isn't being rejected, but instead the parties are debating the extent of the nationalization. Even some of the most conservative members of congress are saying, "we need some sort of large scale health care reform."

This has to be stopped cold, and the only people who can do that now are the voters.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Who is "Claire"?

Were you under the illusion that current health insurance policies are not subject to a variety of gov't regulations?  New private health insurance options will be subject to new gov't regulations.  This is not that radical.

Grandfather clauses exist in virtually every regulatory scheme on virtually every level of government.  This grandfather clause outlaws private health insurance in the same way that the grandfather clause allowing my mom's teaching license to remain valid outlawed teachers, or that grandfather clauses allowing houses with old wiring to be sold without complete rewiring outlaws home electrical use.

The "Page 16" provision does indeed outlaw the types of insurance we used to be able to get, and mandates that only the new styles of insurance being pushed by Obama are legal.

Sorry, but I don't want Obama insurance.  Why should I be forced to buy it?  This is still supposed to be a free country, right?

[longeyes]

And what happens when you have rigged elections and ignorant voters?

Does that mean that "the mob" is permitted to trash what are suppposed to be God-given and Constitutionally-protected liberties?

[longeyes]

Sorry, but I don't want Obama insurance.  Why should I be forced to buy it?  This is still supposed to be a free country, right?

Where are the lawsuits?  Where is SCOTUS?

[Waitone]

Where are the lawsuits?  Where is SCOTUS?

SWISH!  Same question could be asked of every initiative Obama has made since riding into town.  Better yet, ask the question about some of the stunts Bush Parte Deux pulled.

We have plenty of opposition rhetoric.  Where is the opposition action?
Where is the discussion of rollback?
Where is the discussion of opposition tactics?

A lot of questions need to be asked.  So when do we start?

[De Selby]

The fact is, the existing insurance system is broken.  It does not deliver services as efficiently or at a lower price or even faster than most industrialized socialist medical systems.  I can find no reason to run around championing the "freedom" to be pigeon-holed into contracts with awful terms by corporations whose main business is not delivering health care, but rather collecting and keeping premiums.

If you are sick or at risk of serious illness and possess an amount under the millions in cash, the odds are that the United States is absolutely the worst place in the developed world that you could be.

Where I'm at now, even completely avoiding the government health system, I can see a doctor for about $35 USD.  If I need medicine, it generally costs about $15 USD.  Those are the prices I have to pay for not having access to the socialist medical system, which delivers equivalent service using general fund money. 

The exact same services in the United States, which I had occasion to pay for because my freely chosen insurance only operates up front in some hospitals and some regions, were billed at $300 to see the doctor, and about $80 for the medicine. 

There's absolutely no plus to the current system. You can't bargain the terms of any of those contracts, they are not favourable terms, and the delivery of services that results is so poor that it's inferior by every measure to most socialist systems.  Why on earth would you want to defend that?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

If you are sick or at risk of serious illness and possess an amount under the millions in cash, the odds are that the United States is absolutely the worst place in the developed world that you could be.

funny then that so many folks come here for treatment and so few leave to go elsewhere.  and of those that DO go elsewhere they often go due to the way our gov regulates medicine here

[Boomhauer]

Where I'm at now, even completely avoiding the government health system, I can see a doctor for about $35 USD.  If I need medicine, it generally costs about $15 USD.  Those are the prices I have to pay for not having access to the socialist medical system, which delivers equivalent service using general fund money.

I can see a doctor for $60 and often have the medicine cost less than your $15 in the US, no insurance involved.
My flight medical costs $90.

That's for what I commonly have to go to a doctor for each year. I see the dentist twice a year for $80 per visit. That's no socialism, no gov't run healthcare, no insurance. Just cash up front.

[MicroBalrog]

Why on earth would you want to defend that?

Because what people are defending it from is even worse.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i see the doc for 10 bucks and prescriptions are 10 also  i pay 300 a month for the 4 of us my wifes employer pays about 900  thats for dental eye glasses the works. 

[De Selby]

If you are sick or at risk of serious illness and possess an amount under the millions in cash, the odds are that the United States is absolutely the worst place in the developed world that you could be.

funny then that so many folks come here for treatment and so few leave to go elsewhere.  and of those that DO go elsewhere they often go due to the way our gov regulates medicine here

Yeah, actually it's the opposite: medical tourism to places where health care is affordable is one of the biggest gigs going in travel these days.  The reason is that surgery generally costs 1/10th for equivalent service outside of home.

Try to find a medical tourism company that lists the US of A as its destination...

[De Selby]

I can see a doctor for $60 and often have the medicine cost less than your $15 in the US, no insurance involved.
My flight medical costs $90.

That's for what I commonly have to go to a doctor for each year. I see the dentist twice a year for $80 per visit. That's no socialism, no gov't run healthcare, no insurance. Just cash up front.

Well, you have managed to find the bargain of all time in the US at those prices.  You do realize that your experience is far, far from the norm though, right?

CS&D,

Take a look at your numbers there.  I pay just over half what Avenger pays to see the doctor for each visit, and no monthly or yearly fees from my employer.  That is a HUGE price difference.

[De Selby]

Because what people are defending it from is even worse.

This is what gets me though: in what way is it worse?  By all indicators, copying a socialist system would deliver equivalent levels of service at lower prices. 

What's "better" about a free market where you can't bargain the terms of your agreements, and where you pay inordinately more money for services that the rest of the world can provide at far lower costs?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

we had 2 kids both by c section  one an emergency c section  total cost 2 kids including prenatal visits? 300 bucks plus one scrip of vitamins

[De Selby]

we had 2 kids both by c section  one an emergency c section  total cost 2 kids including prenatal visits? 300 bucks plus one scrip of vitamins

That's great - you had insurance and it worked in that instance.  Your personal experience doesn't negate the hard numbers though, which prove that costs for this and most services in the United States are far higher than elsewhere in the world.

[MicroBalrog]

Try to find a medical tourism company that lists the US of A as its destination...

Try any Israeli medical insurance/service company.

[De Selby]

Try any Israeli medical insurance/service company.

After a short search, all I can find are companies that offer packages for Americans to go to Israel and get care at lower costs....do you have any links/examples of the reverse trip?

[longeyes]

Shootin''s right.  Systems without profit are wonderful.  Great idea to have doctors work for the government "at cost."  But if this is a nation built on the law, rather than on health care, why shouldn't we expect lawyers to work "at cost" and without profit too?  Let them go first into the brave new world.